Society Prejudiced Against The Uneducated Poor, Seminar Hears

[rubl]

Cut anything before the anyway. Check the original post

...

Anyway, education is critical, on the other hand, the point made in the seminar mentioned in this op-ed is that an education doesn't make you a better, more deserving member of society; nor does the inverse, being a person of little formal education, make you a less valuable member of society. I agree with that position.

Agreed, education is critical. Back in Europe my mother's further education was considered less important than that of her brothers who would have to work, earn a living, with girls just marrying, staying home taking care of the family. Only about 50 - 60 odd years ago. Thailand still shows similar attitudes. Will take a while to get over it. As a whole societies tend to be ultra conservative, even small changes may need forceful nudges. Keep pushing should be the motto !

Too late to correct, so let me reply instead. Having got together enough fingers to count, the '50 - 60 yeas ago' should be '60 - 70 years ago'. I should have known, I wasn't born yet.

[henryalleman]

I always notice that there is a big difference of opinion about a minimum wage between US citizens and Europeans.

I, as an European can only say that the European system of social welfare and strong labour laws and strong labour unions is in no contradisction with a strong economy. Just look to Germany, The Scandinavian countries, Holland and Belgium.

And just look to the deplorable situation of the US economy, a huge trade deficit not yet to mention the deplorable situation of the budget. Not yet to mention the healthcare system and education. All in a deplorable situation even they don't have the European welfare system.

It is even so that the European healthcare system who gives a good healthcare for all, regardless their social status or income is even cheaper for the governments than the US system, and give even a better and more extensive service to their inhabitants than their American counterpart.

A minimum wage should not be a problem for thailand if productivity raises also. But there is the problem. productivity in Thailand is extremely low. Due to the lac of of a good education system which does'nt deliver skilled workers. But to overcome this you must trow out 85% of all teachers. And secondly, all polls confirm that the population of the poorest provinces their percentage of household spending on education is also the lowest in the country.

In short the education system in Thailand sucks.

And again, if low wages is the only way to have an exellent export howcome, that again European countries with their high salaries,are still exporting to countries like China and Thailand. I give thev example of Belgium who's export is responsible for 80% of there GNP. You even find many Belgium made food products in your local supermarket. Even they have one of the highest labour costs in the world, 10 % higher than in Germany.

In short, wages are only a small factor in price settings. Productivity, Inovation, High quality products with a greater value are even so important. Simply because there will always be a country with lower wages than you have.

So its come again to the importance of education, education and education. This is the problem of Thailand not a minimum wage.

But implementing an minimum dayly wage of 300 baht and 15 000 Baht for bachelor graduates NOW, without improving productivity an upgrading their workforce and products is an economical suicide. It will only make inflation sky high, thats all.

I think we are heading to the same situation as in 1997, all signes are there.

I do hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid not. I'm very lucky I'm an expat who's inflation free guaranteed pension comes from abroad.

I do pitty all the Thai low en middle income earners, there life will be much more worse after this government is gone.

[Trouble]

What a load of crap.

What parents would aspire for the kid to grow up to be a street sweeper? How is that an "elitist approach"?

Are they saying that people from the North and North East all grow up wanting to be street sweepers?

I think the point is not to "train" children to look down upon others simply because they are poor or are poorly educated. That does not mean people should not want their children to aspire to greater goals in life.

Anyone who does not think there are elitist attitudes among many in Thailand is living in the dark. Soap operas, magazines such as Hi So, etc. all create an elitist attitude and everyone wants in the club. You will never see more Louis Vuitton bags (genuine or fake) per capita than in Thailand and some other Asian countries. It would seem that having those handbags makes one HI SO. It has always amazed me that in Thailand those who have achieved some degree of "economic freedom" love to flaunt it and treat others lower on the economic scale in desrespectful ways.

Although formal education may make a person book smart in many ways it does not always make them wiser. Education is a tool for life not the end all. The quote by Mark Twain referenced above is right on. There are many really smart people doing great things but some can't change a light bulb, so to speak.

Honestly thought underneath all the stuff in the Nation article there is some truth there.

[GooEng]

it took a symposium to conclude this???

christ on a bike! take a look out the front door, at the tv or anywhere in this country and the most glaringly obvious characteristic of modern thais is their worship of money, wealth and the associated power and status it brings, and their willing ness to do almost anythig to get it and their equally open distaste for the less well off, poverty and anything associated to it.

anyway, what are they going to do about this ugly truth, now that their clever symposium has identified it?

drrrrrum roll ..... SFA!

bravo!

Edited August 21, 2011 by joe ekkamai

[Nisa]

I get so tired of hearing how backwards Thailand is ... why can't it be like other countries where being poor and uneducated is admired and holds a position of dignity and respect in society. I know the street beggars in America will not take more than $5 from anyone for fear of losing their coveted poor status in society. And I hear in Europe it is near impossible to get a job now if you have a degree, employers are only interested in the under educated.

[zydeco]

I hope they don't propose putting everyone wearing eyeglasses in re-education camps, next.

[henryalleman]

And I hear in Europe it is near impossible to get a job now if you have a degree, employers are only interested in the under educated.

You are very ill informed. Its just the upperset. There are almost no jobs available anymore for the under educated and the unskilled. There is a great need for engineers, technicians and IT experts of all sorts.

But you could be correct if you mean there is no need for archeoligists and degrees like that.

[givenall]

What a load of crap.

What parents would aspire for the kid to grow up to be a street sweeper? How is that an "elitist approach"?

Are they saying that people from the North and North East all grow up wanting to be street sweepers?

The world has changed and there are not enough resources togive handout to people who don’t understand that education is the key tosuccess in this new world. So if you don’t want to stay poor or you kids becomeone make sure they go to school and learn what is needed.

[hammered]

What a load of crap.

What parents would aspire for the kid to grow up to be a street sweeper? How is that an "elitist approach"?

Are they saying that people from the North and North East all grow up wanting to be street sweepers?

I think the point is not to "train" children to look down upon others simply because they are poor or are poorly educated. That does not mean people should not want their children to aspire to greater goals in life.

Anyone who does not think there are elitist attitudes among many in Thailand is living in the dark. Soap operas, magazines such as Hi So, etc. all create an elitist attitude and everyone wants in the club. You will never see more Louis Vuitton bags (genuine or fake) per capita than in Thailand and some other Asian countries. It would seem that having those handbags makes one HI SO. It has always amazed me that in Thailand those who have achieved some degree of "economic freedom" love to flaunt it and treat others lower on the economic scale in desrespectful ways.

Although formal education may make a person book smart in many ways it does not always make them wiser. Education is a tool for life not the end all. The quote by Mark Twain referenced above is right on. There are many really smart people doing great things but some can't change a light bulb, so to speak.

Honestly thought underneath all the stuff in the Nation article there is some truth there.

Good points. In the couple of decades I have lived here, the soap operas have actually become worse in how they portray the poor. In days gone by there did actually used to be the odd soap opera with poor scenes and where poor people werent only portrayed as maids, bad people, bumbling idiots etc. And the actors and actresses didnt always seem so whited up

[Nisa]

And I hear in Europe it is near impossible to get a job now if you have a degree, employers are only interested in the under educated.

You are very ill informed. Its just the upperset. There are almost no jobs available anymore for the under educated and the unskilled. There is a great need for engineers, technicians and IT experts of all sorts.

But you could be correct if you mean there is no need for archeoligists and degrees like that.

Are you saying that you believe everything else in my post beyond the sentence you copied is correct????????

Edited August 22, 2011 by Nisa

[thaicbr]

n England I have a friend, retired now, but he was a local council worker, an unskilled Irishman paid a minimum wage to drive a council truck and repair potholes. But he kept going on courses, chainsaw operative, pneumatic drill operative, deicing and road gritting techniques, at the end of each course he received a certificate, plus an increase in salary.

The point I am making is that he was actively encouraged by his employers, the Council, to improve his skills and status and income, he had pride in his job and in his certificates. This is what Thailand needs to do.

+100.

They have sooooo many committees here but not a lot of training courses or systems.

[Thai at Heart]

Reading the OP, doesn't seem as though too much heavy thought and analysis was going on at this seminar.

And in conjunction with other people discussing the role of soap operas in Thailand today, I would suggest they are the single most influential tool on Thai society today. Make the story lines a bit more realistic, and less based around hilighting the separation of society along wealth lines, and maybe you would very quickly start changing the mindset of a lot of people.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[kerryk]

Reading the OP, doesn't seem as though too much heavy thought and analysis was going on at this seminar.

And in conjunction with other people discussing the role of soap operas in Thailand today, I would suggest they are the single most influential tool on Thai society today. Make the story lines a bit more realistic, and less based around hilighting the separation of society along wealth lines, and maybe you would very quickly start changing the mindset of a lot of people.

State controlled media? That would be a good idea. Kind of an extension of censorship. Give them what they need not what they want. Maybe Members of TV could advise what to show.

[RedNIvar]

Society prejudiced against the uneducated poor

I think that this is the same prejudice the TV Thaksin Lynch Mob have. They are poor, hence they are uneducated, hence they have no idea what is good for them, hence they will vote for whoever pays them more. I believe that is their normal rant. I believe they know more than they let on.

[osiboy]

perhaps paying the street sweeper a working wage that allows him to take care of his family would be a good start

As interesting as that sounds that is the basis of socialism or communism and that is what is wrecking the Western economies right now. One of the reasons that America is no longer the steel producing king of the world was 13 weeks of vacation per year for steelworkers. Unions started with a minimum wage and soon accelerated to include benefits that eventually broke the industry.

Get the streets cleaned for the wage that people will do the job. If Thais don't want to clean them then Burmese will.

If you want to rise on the social ladder guarantee education for everyone and let them work their way up. There are many good jobs available for educated people who can actually add and subtract and show up for work on a regular basis.

Sooner or later everyone will realize it is a global economy. Hard work and education will be the eventual keys to success. Let the market work, regulation rarely works. Don't bail out the bankers and don't subsidize the garbage workers. Let them both enjoy the fruits of their labor.

what a load of contradictary waffle,..... the poor are bailing out the bankers now, the very people you say should bail out themselves, ,...if we are all educated to a reasonable standard who will sweep the roads ??? ,........ the bankers ? a fair days work for a fair wage is what all people deserve regardless of their education, thats why the world is in the mess its in now, becouse only the rich have the money to spend so there are not enough people to buy our way out of recession , all becouse the elite think they deserve what the average person gets per day X 5000+,............. and hard work isn't done with a pen and paper,.its done with a shovel and a pick, office workers dont build railways and airports, they just decide where to put them ......GET REAL !

[evanson]

Reading the OP, doesn't seem as though too much heavy thought and analysis was going on at this seminar.

And in conjunction with other people discussing the role of soap operas in Thailand today, I would suggest they are the single most influential tool on Thai society today. Make the story lines a bit more realistic, and less based around hilighting the separation of society along wealth lines, and maybe you would very quickly start changing the mindset of a lot of people.

This is 100% correct. The reason they're called 'soap operas' is that they were devised as a marketing tool for ... soap. Or washing powder as it's known in the UK. Also, The Archers (UK radio soap) was started as a way to get the message across to UK farmers re new farming practices.

Most Thais watch soaps, and from what I've seen of them, they look ridiculous. Protagonists/heroes always super white. I was recently sitting in a Thai friend's house, her eyes glued to a 'soap' and exclaimed "Look! They have Thai people in this', during a scene on a Skytrain with a loving WHITE couple surrounded by dark skinned fellow passengers. Didn't even register, save for a barely disguised scowl at my temerity in implying something not quite right with how Thai society is (falsely) presented.

Soaps. There's your answer!

[Thakkar]

n England I have a friend, retired now, but he was a local council worker, an unskilled Irishman paid a minimum wage to drive a council truck and repair potholes. But he kept going on courses, chainsaw operative, pneumatic drill operative, deicing and road gritting techniques, at the end of each course he received a certificate, plus an increase in salary.

The point I am making is that he was actively encouraged by his employers, the Council, to improve his skills and status and income, he had pride in his job and in his certificates. This is what Thailand needs to do.

+100.

They have sooooo many committees here but not a lot of training courses or systems.

This is symptomatic throughout Thai society. Any society serious about education (and if budget allocation is anything to go by, successive Thai governments would at least appear to be), would invest in well stocked, competently manned libraries in as many neighborhoods as possible, As well, public museums and art galleries. But there's little of that here, even in supposedly prosperous Bangkok. Such facilities not only are great aids to education (especially for those less well off, but self-motivated) for youngsters, but all citizens throughout their lives. Because we don't stop learning upon leaving school.

T

[Thai at Heart]

Reading the OP, doesn't seem as though too much heavy thought and analysis was going on at this seminar.

And in conjunction with other people discussing the role of soap operas in Thailand today, I would suggest they are the single most influential tool on Thai society today. Make the story lines a bit more realistic, and less based around hilighting the separation of society along wealth lines, and maybe you would very quickly start changing the mindset of a lot of people.

State controlled media? That would be a good idea. Kind of an extension of censorship. Give them what they need not what they want. Maybe Members of TV could advise what to show.

On the basis that the television media in Thailand is already state controlled, there is no reason to believe that it is beyond anyone's control to improve the level of Thai television. Coming from a country where the BBC operating under its charter has produced some of the world's greatest TV from entertainment to education, the power of the media to inform, educate and influence the people is never to be underestimated.

When you realise that every story on Thai soaps is a remake of storied that Thai government officials brought back to Thailand from early women's magazines in Europe over 120 years ago, as a way to civilise society, you can understand why the stereotypes are so obvious, the story lines so dated, and the characterisation so out of line with reality. If you don't believe that the current style of soap operas are already a state sponsored form of governmental control you are bonkers.

I however, choose to believe that with the correct regulation, TV can really inspire and educate people. It just takes smart people to make the rules by which the TV companies must adhere. If you see that as govt interference in people's private lives, one would have to ask the most obvious question that if it so happens that a government agency owns a TV channel, why can't it be used constructively. If you believe that the only media is a private media, god help us all as we descend into chaos as Murdoch eventually will own it all.

Like all good ideas, the middle ground is the way forward. A combination of public service and private broadcasting with a responsibility to be balanced with a compulsory element of education couldn't possibly worse than the pap that is served up every day in Thailand (and most of the rest of the world) can it?

[kerryk]

Reading the OP, doesn't seem as though too much heavy thought and analysis was going on at this seminar.

And in conjunction with other people discussing the role of soap operas in Thailand today, I would suggest they are the single most influential tool on Thai society today. Make the story lines a bit more realistic, and less based around hilighting the separation of society along wealth lines, and maybe you would very quickly start changing the mindset of a lot of people.

State controlled media? That would be a good idea. Kind of an extension of censorship. Give them what they need not what they want. Maybe Members of TV could advise what to show.

On the basis that the television media in Thailand is already state controlled, there is no reason to believe that it is beyond anyone's control to improve the level of Thai television. Coming from a country where the BBC operating under its charter has produced some of the world's greatest TV from entertainment to education, the power of the media to inform, educate and influence the people is never to be underestimated.

When you realise that every story on Thai soaps is a remake of storied that Thai government officials brought back to Thailand from early women's magazines in Europe over 120 years ago, as a way to civilise society, you can understand why the stereotypes are so obvious, the story lines so dated, and the characterisation so out of line with reality. If you don't believe that the current style of soap operas are already a state sponsored form of governmental control you are bonkers.

I however, choose to believe that with the correct regulation, TV can really inspire and educate people. It just takes smart people to make the rules by which the TV companies must adhere. If you see that as govt interference in people's private lives, one would have to ask the most obvious question that if it so happens that a government agency owns a TV channel, why can't it be used constructively. If you believe that the only media is a private media, god help us all as we descend into chaos as Murdoch eventually will own it all.

Like all good ideas, the middle ground is the way forward. A combination of public service and private broadcasting with a responsibility to be balanced with a compulsory element of education couldn't possibly worse than the pap that is served up every day in Thailand (and most of the rest of the world) can it?

Dress it up any way you like but you are suggesting imposing your standards on Thai media. Censorship as it is is bad enough but you are suggesting state control of programming. 10 Downing street does not tell the BBC what to program.

And I don't think the soaps are a form of government control so I must be bonkers.

[TAWP]

First - a living wage is not the basis of communism. Neither is it the basis of socialism.

A living wage is, however, humane.

Please tell us what a living wage is and who should is the overlord that defined it.

[osiboy]

just goes to show,...............even the educated thais are thick !!

[TAWP]

And I don't think the soaps are a form of government control so I must be bonkers.

Neither do I. They are merely a sign of lacking local television history apart from copying some easy concepts that worked early on and then rehashing it again and again. It is the same in China (Taiwan) and Korea. Anyone ever seen their soaps and game-shows? I have.

[atyclb]

[<snip>

Here I see motocy drivers, taxi-drivers and everyone of lower income levels throw their garbage, including full bags directly from their houses, where-ever they feel like, including other peoples yards (outside the fence). They think it is a SEP - Someone Else's Problem - once it leaves their hands.

This is wrong and inexcusable. But even more pernicious are the rich doing things like driving in monster SUV's whose production and use create more pollution, waste and environmental degradation than a poor person can do in an entire lifetime. The damage from the SUV (and the rich person's entire lifestyle thus embodied) is not as immediately visible, so suck on that you poors!

The poor at least have the fig leaf excuse of being uneducated. What's the educated rich guy's excuse?

If I eat at KFC once every 2 weeks over time that adds up. The chicken IMO is a lot better at KFC Thai than USA, where I don't eat there. To me it just seems to be basic courtesy to dump the tray and leave it on the bin. You are right as it goes against the perceived entitlement status as a customer.

It is also courteous to fellow customers as it allows a quicker turnaround; new customers can sit down faster and not wait for the table to be cleared.

When crowded, I just slide the old tray over, put mine down, and/or even take the old tray to the trash. Rarely will a local do this. They wait and wait for an employee to clear the table.

At KFC over time I have seen all levels of Thai society eating fried chicken. Seems they believe KFC is high class food so I have yet to see a Thai not use a knife and fork, albeit struggle to eat. Must demonstrate a polite and upscale image while eating a perceived upscale food.

I have very very rarely seen any Thai show the polite courtesy of dumping their tray disposables in the trash and leaving it on the top of bin. When given the opportunity, even the poor will dump on the poor.

Firstly, why are you spending so much time at KFC?

On not clearing the tables: With respect, perhaps there is some backwards thinking on your part.

This is just conjecture on my part, but here's what I think:

In the West, labor is expensive and Westerners have been subtly trained by corporations to clear the tables at, what in the West, are cheap joints, as a condition for the bargain-priced foods. In Thailand, KFC is a 'classy' place—price-wise at least. If patrons aren't expected to clear up at 40 baht fried rice places, why would they feel compelled to clear up after an 80 baht KFC meal? To my mind, they are being entirely rational and it's not a case of 'the poor dumping on the poor' at all.

An aside: there are better places than KFC to people watch, though I confess that the scents at KFC can be enticing.

T

Edited August 24, 2011 by atyclb

[kerryk]

If you clear your own tray at KFC you will put a poor Thai out of a job. Leave the trays there are people there who get paid to clear them.