Viktor Bout Statements To US Agents In Thailand Coerced, Judge Rules

[webfact]

Viktor Bout Statements to U.S. Agents Coerced, Judge Rules

Aug. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Viktor Bout, a Russian accused of conspiring to sell weapons to a Colombian terrorist group, won a bid to bar from his trial statements he made after U.S. authorities threatened to abandon him in a Thai prison.

U.S. District Judge Shira A. Scheindlin in Manhattan today granted Bout’s request to exclude his comments to Drug Enforcement Administration agents after his arrest in Bangkok, saying the agents ignored Bout’s request for more time to decide whether to talk. Bout, 44, said he was told that if he didn’t speak immediately, he’d be left in a Thai jail to face “heat, hunger, disease and rape,” Scheindlin wrote in her ruling.

“When coupled with the agents’ deceptive suggestion that if Bout ‘cooperated’ he could come back to the United States with them (rather than be ‘abandoned’ in a Thai jail), I find that this credible threat of violence also materially induced Bout to make statements,” Scheindlin said.

Full story: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-08-25/viktor-bout-statements-to-u-s-agents-coerced-judge-rules.html

-- businessweek.com 2011-08-27

[geriatrickid]

Not a nice statement in respect to Thai prisons.

[taff33]

Is this the typical way that America tries to 'rule the world' by threats.

[Misterwhisper]

Not a nice statement in respect to Thai prisons.

Unfortunately, a true statement in respect to Thai prisons, though.

[Sateev]

Is this the typical way that America tries to 'rule the world' by threats.

Yeah, ALL 320+ million of us got together, and, by unanimous agreement, decided we would threaten anyone who belongs to the 'world'. Got a problem with that?

Honestly, never a topic goes by without some poor, hapless, powerless, trod upon, nincompoop taking a swipe at America. Well, if it makes you feel better, I guess it's OK...

Meanwhile, dam_n, at least ONE American has betrayed us: the American judge who decided in Bout's favor. But, of course, our system NEVER works...

[random]

Is this the typical way that America tries to 'rule the world' by threats.

Yeah, ALL 320+ million of us got together, and, by unanimous agreement, decided we would threaten anyone who belongs to the 'world'. Got a problem with that?

Honestly, never a topic goes by without some poor, hapless, powerless, trod upon, nincompoop taking a swipe at America. Well, if it makes you feel better, I guess it's OK...

Meanwhile, dam_n, at least ONE American has betrayed us: the American judge who decided in Bout's favor. But, of course, our system NEVER works...

so when someone points out your oppression you defend it by saying its individuals rather then america as a whole, but then when one judge 'betrays' you by adhering to the law then he has betrayed 'us'.

So which is it, are you individuals or a whole???

[DP25]

In the end though he preferred the "heat, hunger, disease and rape" of Thai prison to going to the US

[alexakap]

Wow.

I am really amazed.

He got more help from the judge of his "1st possible enemy", than from the [totally and completely HELPLESS] Embassy of his own country. In TH and now in US....But I still remember the good old times there USSR just got their ballistic missiles armed...somewhere in Cuba....and the such stories being ruled by themselwes, somehow very quick....

[random]

When you are in an accountable legal system then expect the law to be followed, and that is what has happened here.

[alexakap]

When you are in an accountable legal system then expect the law to be followed, and that is what has happened here.

Yeah...and when you dealing with US - expect they will come and "extract" you even from the neutral third-party country - settled a trap for you and pushed you to talk "immediately". "Accountable legal system"?? Yes, of course...Speak about it to the ones locked in Guantanamo.

Edited August 27, 2011 by alexakap

[random]

When you are in an accountable legal system then expect the law to be followed, and that is what has happened here.

Yeah...and when you dealing with US - expect they will come and "extract" you even from the neutral third-party country - settled a trap for you and pushed you to talk "immediately". "Accountable legal system"?? Yes, of course...Speak about it to the ones locked in Guantanamo.

you miss my point, as soon as it is in a court the court has ruled in Bouts favour, that is what I mean by accountable, sadly the underhand shit they do is not accountable until it comes into open court,

Don't worry, I am the last one that will defend these people

[KHR1010]

Is this the typical way that America tries to 'rule the world' by threats.

Very keen observation on your part. How dare those American pigs threaten to leave this meek and mild soul to face incarceration and consequences within the country he was arrested....threat-mongering, world ruling scum bags!!!!

They should follow the lead of this man's home country and practice the "soft approach" of Russian interrogation!!

If those filthy American's could just come up with a legal system that guaranteed protection, to those accused, against evidence obtained through coercion regardless of the accused's nationality/citizenship then maybe I could hate those American pigs less!

No I would still hate them....bad American's....bad...bad!!!!

[alexakap]

sadly the underhand shit they do is not accountable until it comes into open court,

It is happening daily and around the world. I have tonnes of examples...

BTW, mr.Bout has not even opened case\lawsuit at his country of origin. Russia has nothing to him, and he is currently "clean" in criminal means. The same goes to Thailand - he has NO opened cases and did nothing against Thai laws too.

This is why I am surprised in double - thy R.embassy did not protect his own "clean" citizen to be extracted from remote country to....mmm......somewhere else against his wills.

And the one big point - what EXACTLY did he speak "immediately", so now they can ease their tights for him...May that be that he is now "used in full" (as an ex-KGB high-rank officer, knows manything "valuable"), so they slowly going to free him (sooner or later)...

Don't worry, I am the last one that will defend these people

Which ones, exactly? I dont want to miss the point again...

[Orac]

If I understand this correctly, and I probably don't, the judge is only ruling that statements made after his arrest are inadmissable. Surely if Bout is as guilty/evil as claimed and was actually caught in a sting operation there should be plenty of evidence to convict him rather than relying on what he said after he was caught and the extradition deal was being arranged??

[OzMick]

The US bashers conveniently forget that Mr Bout is charged with attempting to sell, amongst other things, surface to air missiles to what he thought was a terrorist organization. Nobody forced him to do that, he was acting out of his own venality.

Though this is most likely a crime in Russia, but he was not charged by that country because he was not doing so there (or at least not caught doing so there) and it is strongly suspected he was acting for and on behalf of the Russian government.

As a frequent flier, I have strong views on Rsoles who consider it a legitimate political statement to shoot down passenger airliners. Equally, I have no doubt that should such an organization have contacted Mr Bout, he would have been happy to fill their order if they had sufficient funding (preferably not roubles.) It is not a hard leap of logic then to consider the actions of the US to reduce the proliferation of these weapons as quite laudable, as they are currently doing in Libya.

NEW YORK: The fall of the Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi has kicked off a race to recover weapons taken from his stockpiles, such as shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles, by getting US operatives to buy them before terrorists do. (SMH)

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-buys-arms-to-thwart-terrorists-20110826-1jefa.html#ixzz1WCXFERPY

[KHR1010]

If I understand this correctly, and I probably don't, the judge is only ruling that statements made after his arrest are inadmissable. Surely if Bout is as guilty/evil as claimed and was actually caught in a sting operation there should be plenty of evidence to convict him rather than relying on what he said after he was caught and the extradition deal was being arranged??

The judge is referring to the specific interview conducted by the DEA here in BKK. It was ruled they used intimidation and coercion to elicit Bout's statements, violating the exclusionary rule-derived from the 4th. amendment of the US constitution. These statements made under these conditions are inadmissible as evidence in court. So far, the judge has only thrown out statements form this one interview. All other interviews of Bout and his statements are fully admissible as evidence. There are 100' of hours of interviews still in play for this trial along with, as you said, the direct physical evidence and circumstantial evidence that exists.

"The exclusionary rule mandates that evidence obtained from an illegal arrest, unreasonable search, or coercive interrogation must be excluded from trial."

[alexakap]

The US bashers conveniently forget that Mr Bout is charged with attempting to sell, amongst other things, surface to air missiles to what he thought was a terrorist organization.

1. Attempt to sell is NOT a sell itself - but just an attempt.

2. US itself is selling "surface to air missiles to what he thought was a terrorist organization". Wanna proves? Look at the models of terrorist weapons - most of them are "Made in US", especially when Soviet Union is down for 20 years now.

3. He is not ruled guilty yet.

Though this is most likely a crime in Russia, but he was not charged by that country because he was not doing so there

We are not talking about "he was not going to" - we are talking about he IS or he is NOT.

And yes - he is NOT charged in Russia.

Internal russian problems not being discussed here. They are good or they are bad - is not a reason for Americans just easily come, sting and extract NOT their citizen from NOT their grounds - for just an "attempt". Just stay far away from that - or don't be surprised if someone extracts your own citizens from their own land. An eye for an eye, you know - not all cultures are yet "democratic", lucky they.

PS: no, Im not supporting terrorists - I just prefer the common sense: dont do something to others if you dont expect them to do so to you...

he was acting for and on behalf of the Russian government.

Bin Laden also acted on behalf of the US government. Where he is now? They said he was killed, but noone see the body. Ha-ha.

It is not a hard leap of logic then to consider the actions of the US to reduce the proliferation of these weapons as quite laudable, as they are currently doing in Libya.

Did you try to see the REAL Libyan photos behind the back of those so-called "rebels" - but not those published in mass media?

Come there and see, and welcome to the "photo session":

Edited August 27, 2011 by alexakap

[djvolak]

If I understand this correctly, and I probably don't, the judge is only ruling that statements made after his arrest are inadmissable. Surely if Bout is as guilty/evil as claimed and was actually caught in a sting operation there should be plenty of evidence to convict him rather than relying on what he said after he was caught and the extradition deal was being arranged??

The judge is referring to the specific interview conducted by the DEA here in BKK. It was ruled they used intimidation and coercion to elicit Bout's statements, violating the exclusionary rule-derived from the 4th. amendment of the US constitution. These statements made under these conditions are inadmissible as evidence in court. So far, the judge has only thrown out statements form this one interview. All other interviews of Bout and his statements are fully admissible as evidence. There are 100' of hours of interviews still in play for this trial along with, as you said, the direct physical evidence and circumstantial evidence that exists.

"The exclusionary rule mandates that evidence obtained from an illegal arrest, unreasonable search, or coercive interrogation must be excluded from trial."

So many shades of grey. You ever stop to ask why the DEA was there to question him about weapons? I guess it does not matter what three letter sequence is on the cards they whip out. When you live in the grey area they there are many grey things that can hang you up. Ol Vic will work things out I am sure.

[OzMick]

1. Attempt to sell is NOT a sell itself - but just an attempt.

2. US itself is selling "surface to air missiles to what he thought was a terrorist organization". Wanna proves? Look at the models of terrorist weapons - most of them are "Made in US", especially when Soviet Union is down for 20 years now.

3. He is not ruled guilty yet.

We are not talking about "he was not going to" - we are talking about he IS or he is NOT.

And yes - he is NOT charged in Russia.

Internal russian problems not being discussed here. They are good or they are bad - is not a reason for Americans just easily come, sting and extract NOT their citizen from NOT their grounds - for just an "attempt". Just stay far away from that - or don't be surprised if someone extracts your own citizens from their own land. An eye for an eye, you know - not all cultures are yet "democratic", lucky they.

PS: no, Im not supporting terrorists - I just prefer the common sense: dont do something to others if you dont expect them to do so to you...

Bin Laden also acted on behalf of the US government. Where he is now? They said he was killed, but noone see the body. Ha-ha.

Did you try to see the REAL Libyan photos behind the back of those so-called "rebels" - but not those published in mass media?

Come there and see, and welcome to the "photo session":

A quick course in logic would help you immensely. Also a study of forum rules.

[Cnxforever]

The entire case was flawed from the very beginning. Bout had never broken any laws in Thailand - so why did the Thai police carry out an arrest in the first place.

Everything else was entrapment by the DEA - neither money nor weapons had changed hands - so where is the crime? Why the DEA is even involved in setting up a "weapons deal" is beyond me.

Even if money would have been paid to Bout - there was still no delivery - so anybody can promise to deliver something he might not even have - "Colombian Separatists" can hardly take you to court if you don't deliver after initial payment and that they could have gotten to him in Russia was almost impossible - he is very well "connected" there.

Bout can always claim he never intendet to deliver anything. If all the DEA has is a "promise" to deliver - they have no case. And that they obviously relied on his "confession" after the arrest tells me - they have nothing

Don't get me wrong - if he traded illigally in weapons - which has so far not been proven - he should go to prison - but if this is all just an invention of the DEA - then he should not.

The law is still the law.

We all know that his company transported "things" for the UN and the US in the past - so his business must have been legitimate - or did the UN and US use an "illigal weapons trader" to do business with? They would not do that to keep their own hands clean - wouldn't they??

[mca]

Not a nice statement in respect to Thai prisons.

Completely off topic (my apologies} and definitely not acceptable in today's world in a "How did they get away with it?"

[hanuman1]

This ruling should improve the perception of the US criminal justice system around the world.

[housepainter]

“heat, hunger, disease and rape,"

But not necessarily in that order.

Although why anyone would want to rape a fat boy Russian twice their size I can't imagine.

Even paedophiles have their standards and confine their activities to the under 8s where ever possible.

And yes for all you experts practicing your dark arts in Pattaya I do realise that 8 is a bit old for you.

[metisdead]

A post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered “fair use” and not a violation of copyright.

[OzMick]

The entire case was flawed from the very beginning. Bout had never broken any laws in Thailand - so why did the Thai police carry out an arrest in the first place.

Everything else was entrapment by the DEA - neither money nor weapons had changed hands - so where is the crime? Why the DEA is even involved in setting up a "weapons deal" is beyond me.

Even if money would have been paid to Bout - there was still no delivery - so anybody can promise to deliver something he might not even have - "Colombian Separatists" can hardly take you to court if you don't deliver after initial payment and that they could have gotten to him in Russia was almost impossible - he is very well "connected" there.

Bout can always claim he never intendet to deliver anything. If all the DEA has is a "promise" to deliver - they have no case. And that they obviously relied on his "confession" after the arrest tells me - they have nothing

Don't get me wrong - if he traded illigally in weapons - which has so far not been proven - he should go to prison - but if this is all just an invention of the DEA - then he should not.

The law is still the law.

We all know that his company transported "things" for the UN and the US in the past - so his business must have been legitimate - or did the UN and US use an "illigal weapons trader" to do business with? They would not do that to keep their own hands clean - wouldn't they??

I doubt very much that you are a lawyer - neither am I, but may I suggest to Alex that attempted sale of prohibited weapons is a serious criminal offence, and to you that so is conspiracy.

The fact that you are not in a position to supply the item is immaterial if you are indicating intent to do so.

As a precedent, I remember some time back a lad being convicted of illegal drug trading when in fact he handed over a bag of oregano which he claimed was marijuana.

If a local police unit use a courier, does that mean that they can't/shouldn't arrest him when he is caught with a truckload of contraband?

Edited August 27, 2011 by OzMick

[taff33]

How many people in America should be put in jail for the supply of arms to the I.R.A. Duh

[rametindallas]

Is this the typical way that America tries to 'rule the world' by threats.

Yeah, ALL 320+ million of us got together, and, by unanimous agreement, decided we would threaten anyone who belongs to the 'world'. Got a problem with that?

Honestly, never a topic goes by without some poor, hapless, powerless, trod upon, nincompoop taking a swipe at America. Well, if it makes you feel better, I guess it's OK...

Meanwhile, dam_n, at least ONE American has betrayed us: the American judge who decided in Bout's favor. But, of course, our system NEVER works...

+1 I'm very happy for the American bashing posters that live in countries where, because they don't need an army, can spend their taax money on a welfare state, I wish the US weren't the 'World's policeman': I'm tired of propping up NATO. and supporting a huge army and navy.

[animatic]

I didn't find her logic all that profound. More bleeding heart than real world. I suspect it is an appealable point.

[bangon04]

I didn't find her logic all that profound. More bleeding heart than real world. I suspect it is an appealable point.

Viktor Bout is so lucky that he came before this Judge Sheindlin.

If he had come before big sister Judge Judy, it would be all over for him....

[EnSvenskTiger]

I didn't find her logic all that profound. More bleeding heart than real world. I suspect it is an appealable point.

Viktor Bout is so lucky that he came before this Judge Sheindlin.

If he had come before big sister Judge Judy, it would be all over for him....

Lucky!? Howcan the law and justice be different from judge to judge? Is the "legal system" askew?