The End Of Buddhism In Thailand.

[Ijustwannateach]

......

I am not a practicing Buddhist, at least not a self-consciously Buddhist practictioner... though I do attempt to meditate and am cultivating other self-awareness approaches. So what I say may not entirely apply.

It seems to me, though, that OP is more hung up on the chocolate than the monk who failed to examine his craving was hung up on it. People are not perfect and the path that everyone has to tread will be different. There are no exact manuals nor perfect teachers to let us know what we may have missed. It seems to me more that the person in question should celebrate finding something more he might have missed, something more that may be a sign of where he should be going. Awareness is the point, isn't it?

If the craving had stayed hidden, how many more years might it have set him back?

[Ijustwannateach]

As far as 'whence Buddhism in Thailand'- what little I know of Buddha's own thoughts on the matter of proselytisation- say that he himself was skeptical that attempting to teach Buddhism was a particularly effective or wise idea, that it was unlikely to be heard in the right way. But finally, he decided it wasn't a bad thing to try.

From such a point of view, I don't think he would have been too bothered by the passing of the institution of Buddhism. However, also from this point of view, Buddhism itself can't 'disappear'- it will inevitably reappear as living beings stumble across it again and again.

[fabianfred]

From such a point of view, I don't think he would have been too bothered by the passing of the institution of Buddhism. However, also from this point of view, Buddhism itself can't 'disappear'- it will inevitably reappear as living beings stumble across it again and again.

Buddhism is just the name for the religion built up around the Buddha. He never desired to start a religion but just taught the eternal truth...the Dhamma...which is always true whether anyone knows about it, or believes in it.

This truth gets lost until re-discovered by the next Buddha. Ordinary beings cannot stumble upon it...only Buddhas...and they are extemely rare and precious.

[rockyysdt]

From such a point of view, I don't think he would have been too bothered by the passing of the institution of Buddhism. However, also from this point of view, Buddhism itself can't 'disappear'- it will inevitably reappear as living beings stumble across it again and again.

Buddhism is just the name for the religion built up around the Buddha. He never desired to start a religion but just taught the eternal truth...the Dhamma...which is always true whether anyone knows about it, or believes in it.

This truth gets lost until re-discovered by the next Buddha. Ordinary beings cannot stumble upon it...only Buddhas...and they are extemely rare and precious.

The other important thing to add is that much of the Buddhas truth may have been/has been lost in interpretation and translation, which explains the different traditions as well as the conflicting views on what the goals actually are.

This of course is completely understandable due to the clinging nature of the ego to greed, aversion & delusion.

Edited November 15, 2011 by rockyysdt

[Ijustwannateach]

^^I think even Buddhas are 'living beings'!

As for their rarity, I don't know. Probably I've never met one? Would I know if I had? Would the existence of one necessarily create the kind of historic shock wave that 'THE' last widely-known Buddha did?

[clarebangkok]

I'm not a Buddhist but the Buddhists need to reclaim Thailand. And I'm not a Christian but there's a lot of Westernisation in Thailand that needs to be stopped, because those liberal values are the ones that fuc_ked up the west, that's why I'm going to Thailand.

[fabianfred]

^^I think even Buddhas are 'living beings'!

As for their rarity, I don't know. Probably I've never met one? Would I know if I had? Would the existence of one necessarily create the kind of historic shock wave that 'THE' last widely-known Buddha did?

No Buddhas around now...just their teachings. Next Buddha due in a few million years. You might have met a Buddha in the past...but missed your chance..... you still have a chance now to follow the Dhamma and escape suffering...up to you.

No great shock wave.....many people alive when the Buddha was never got to meet him or his teachings....some living in other places...some even walked right by him and took no notice....those who met and listened had earned the opportunity from their past karma.

[rockyysdt]

<br>

<br>^^I think even Buddhas are 'living beings'!<br><br>As for their rarity, I don't know.  Probably I've never met one?  Would I know if I had?  Would the existence of one necessarily create the kind of historic shock wave that 'THE' last widely-known Buddha did?<br>

<br>No Buddhas around now...just their teachings. Next Buddha due in a few million years. You might have met a Buddha in the past...but missed your chance..... you still have a chance now to follow the Dhamma and escape suffering...up to you.<br>No great shock wave.....many people alive when the Buddha was never got to meet him or his teachings....some living in other places...some even walked right by him and took no notice....those who met and listened had earned the opportunity from their past karma.<br>

That's still debatable Fred.

In fact if one takes the time to review the interpretation of what the Buddha actually taught one would realize a completely different message.

Attachment to current tradition, without investigation as the Buddha implored, is the same as saying: "I subscribe to Buddhaghosa's interpretation of what Buddhism is, and am not really interested in what the Buddha actually taught!".

It's much better to focus on daily practice aimed at reducing ones duhka, and ultimately free oneself from delusion, greed and aversion, rather than cling to the notion of stream entry and Nirvana within seven lifetimes (which is egotistical and opposes the very nature of ones practice).

Although there are references to suttas claiming future lives, there are just as many suttas, particularly in early works which paint a completely different picture, one of a teacher offering awakening in this life and not immortality in a Buddhist heaven.

It seems that those who have fallen for the carrot of immortality (Nirvana) have fallen into the trap of a religion.

The Buddha never intended to offer a religion, but rather a life free of delusion, greed and aversion.

Misinterpretations of Pali and Sanskrit gave us words such as Monks and Monasteries, very religious in tone and flavor.

The reality is that such the institution of Monkhood offers two things, freedom to pursue ones training/practice full time, and an opportunity to pass on (teach) the knowledge.

If there is a bonus to be had, then accept this gift when/if it comes, but striving for it will only grow ones ego and delusion.

Edited November 19, 2011 by rockyysdt

[Michael2020]

The older generations, what my teacher Supawan Green calls 'The Enlightening Culture' didn't have the distractions of consumerism and TV so they were more devout in their practice. Now they have those things and are easily seduced by them. The gradual deterioration of the quality of new monks who ordain simply for the custom and ritual will naturally have an effect too.

As I said before, there are more than 300 temples in Chiangmai province without any monks in residence, and over 400 in Chiangrai province, and probably similar across the country, although I might suspect the poorer Issan to be better than average. Often poor people have more faith.

I don't think LP Jaran elaborated upon the reasons for loss of Buddhism here so i cannot guess. He also predicted that one day the Thai people will have no homeland. I tried to imagine why this might be and came up with this idea...... We all know how the breakup of communism in Eastern Europe cause a flood of people breaking away from their former countries with their new found freedom, and being quite a burden upon the richer Nations in Western Europe. One day, inevitably, communism in China will end, and this could cause a tidal wave of Chinese to swamp the surrounding countries...perhaps dislodging the Thais or diluting them into insignificance.

just an idea....anyone else have any?

Hi Bhante,

I think it has more do to do which the Climate/Tectonic changes/WW3, not related to Thai people per se:

(Mae Chee Maria 5 - Predictions of my teacher - posted in 2007)

Quote:

"The catastrophe would come the flood would come in future Bangkok would be beach...all the new technology would not help you any more..human would come back to very nature..many people would die..Thailand only half left over the south and everything would be under water"

From my own research of other prophecy & astrology, i concluded The End Of The World As We Knew It is very near....very very near...most likely by 2020. It not doomsday, human would still roam the earth...but there would be a lot less human on this planet.

When WW3 ended only a few goverment exist, and the strongest nation of all would rule the earth. No more nation/country as we know it...only World Goverment. After WW3 there would be peace for thousands of years.

When i first hear this prophecy, i wondered "Why & what make new technology unusable?", further research lead me to:

http://en.wikipedia....r_storm_of_1859

http://en.wikipedia....omagnetic_pulse

Btw, does anyone have a more detailed prophecy, specially about Southern Thailand which would be under water? Because i'm from peninsular Malaysia, would peninsular Malaysia be underwater too?

thanks & regards

Edited November 21, 2011 by Michael2020

[fullyunenlightened]

the way i see it, is that food, and anything else the buddhists

put into their bodies are a main contributor to the end of

buddhist practice

the monks, in particular, suffer the most. they dont have much

control of whats in front of them at mealtimes

thai food is very tasty. most of this 'taste' comes from the

condiments the cooks dump into the otherwise bland

rice and vegetables

theres a lot of harmful ingredients in these condiments

such as msg, refined salt, colours, artificial flavouring, white

sugar etc

the oils used to fry with are refined oils, these oils create

havoc in all areas in the body

the rice is bleached and denatured. its stripped of most of

its nutritional value

there is very little organic foodstuffs making their way into

the monks bowls

they are served sweetened homogenized milk drinks

3in1 coffee, coffeemate, ovaltine etc

all of the above are harmful and poisonous

when consumed they result in any number of these effects

tiredness, weakness, diabetes, heart problems, dullness,

lethargy, wrong type of chi energy; scatteredness, inability

to concentrate, hyperactivity etc etc etc

go check it out. youll see a lot of the monks are fat and

overweight, or thin and wasted.

one chieng mai temple i stayed in (wat rampeung) had

over 100 monks residing. the meditation teacher told me

half those monks had diabetes. i was a monk in those

days and went on almsround. everything put into my bowl

was sweet-rice veg even meats and fish. of course there

was unsweetened white rice as staple

not all monks are sick. of course. either they eat very little

or theyre lucky enough to be offered wholesome things.

maybe their meditations help in minimizing the bad effects

i do believe the buddha mentioned the reality of cause and

effect a few times

put a poison into the body and it has an effect. scientifically

proven. the body has its immune system to counter

harmful incoming material. and does so very well. but

when its assaulted too much-the poisons stay in the body.

they are not ejected. the accumulation of poisons lead to

all kinds of big problems

[rockyysdt]

One off-topic post has been deleted. Either stick to the topic or don't post at all.

It would be interesting to know exactly what LP Jaran meant by "Buddhism." Did he mean "true Buddhism" (presumably referring to classical Theravada) or the popular Buddhism practised by most Thais. I certainly wouldn't expect the latter to disappear in a hundred years.

Can I ask Camerata?

By classical Theravada, do you mean Theravada as interpreted by Buddhagosa in the 5th century?

[Xangsamhua]

the way i see it, is that food, and anything else the buddhists

put into their bodies are a main contributor to the end of

buddhist practice

the monks, in particular, suffer the most. they dont have much

control of whats in front of them at mealtimes

thai food is very tasty. most of this 'taste' comes from the

condiments the cooks dump into the otherwise bland

rice and vegetables

theres a lot of harmful ingredients in these condiments

such as msg, refined salt, colours, artificial flavouring, white

sugar etc

the oils used to fry with are refined oils, these oils create

havoc in all areas in the body

the rice is bleached and denatured. its stripped of most of

its nutritional value

there is very little organic foodstuffs making their way into

the monks bowls

they are served sweetened homogenized milk drinks

3in1 coffee, coffeemate, ovaltine etc

all of the above are harmful and poisonous

when consumed they result in any number of these effects

tiredness, weakness, diabetes, heart problems, dullness,

lethargy, wrong type of chi energy; scatteredness, inability

to concentrate, hyperactivity etc etc etc

go check it out. youll see a lot of the monks are fat and

overweight, or thin and wasted.

one chieng mai temple i stayed in (wat rampeung) had

over 100 monks residing. the meditation teacher told me

half those monks had diabetes. i was a monk in those

days and went on almsround. everything put into my bowl

was sweet-rice veg even meats and fish. of course there

was unsweetened white rice as staple

Very interesting.

I would have assumed people offering cooked food to the monks took care that it was of good quality. I had occasion to eat with some monks in a temple not long ago and the food was good - nutritious and varied.

Would it be better if people were asked when they tak baht to offer uncooked food and it could be sorted and cooked at the temple? Of course, monks would still take their chances when offered food following a ceremony, but there's usually enough so they can pick and choose, isn't there?

[fabianfred]

Theravada monks are only allowed to accept food ready to eat and cannot do any cooking or gardening to grow their own.

[camerata]

One off-topic post has been deleted. Either stick to the topic or don't post at all.

It would be interesting to know exactly what LP Jaran meant by "Buddhism." Did he mean "true Buddhism" (presumably referring to classical Theravada) or the popular Buddhism practised by most Thais. I certainly wouldn't expect the latter to disappear in a hundred years.

Can I ask Camerata?

By classical Theravada, do you mean Theravada as interpreted by Buddhagosa in the 5th century?

"Classical Theravada" just means the teachings set down in the Pali Canon (and possibly the Commentaries) as opposed to the Buddhism practised by the laity or any reformist movement. It was a term used on the old eSangha web forum.

[Xangsamhua]

Theravada monks are only allowed to accept food ready to eat and cannot do any cooking or gardening to grow their own.

Thanks Fred. I knew about the gardening, but not the cooking. Hadn't thought about it.

[Brucenkhamen]

"Classical Theravada" just means the teachings set down in the Pali Canon (and possibly the Commentaries) as opposed to the Buddhism practised by the laity or any reformist movement. It was a term used on the old eSangha web forum.

It's interesting I can't say I've ever heard the phrase used in this way outside of web forums, on Dhammawheel it's used a lot. Googling the phrase I don't see it used much in this way outside of web forums if at all, I wonder how many people are practising "Classical Theravada" without realising it or needing a label for it. I wonder if any respected teachers ever use it.

Just a small digression

[udonguy]

Your comments are very insightful and thoughtful, Fred. You seem to agree with Luang Por Jaran, but do you mean that Buddhism will disappear (within 100 years?) in Thailand or that the present form of "Buddhism" here will be gone? Do you believe that the Dhamma will not be heard and practised or that the Sangha in its present form will have become extinct?

Not only will the current ossified structures of Buddhism dissipate over the next few decades, but so will much else of what Thais take for granted and have come to expect.

Perhaps the version of Buddhism dying off is the one consisting of practices and beliefs which bear no resemblance to what the Buddha actually taught.

Th version I speak of is the one which is operated, as other religions, with the exaltation of a supreme being, advancement through lucky charms, blessings, misguided merit making and superstition, and generation of wealth through the sale of worthless objects, fortune readings and exorcisms.

Like most religions in the 21st century, as people become more educated, affluent and connected to mass marketing, consumerism is becoming the new religion to new generations.

I don't think this form of Buddhism is very important.

Buddhism which is anchored in the four noble truths and eight fold path,rooted in Dharma, and whose ranks are growing with the likes of Fred, will continue to grow.

Genuine regular practice of Dharma is the key.

I just wish Thais (who claim they are Buddhist) acted accordingly and any threat to Buddhism is due to a lack of leadership by the Sangha. There are many stories of monks going astray and in local temples some are more concerned with selling amulets than practice.

[udonguy]

Unfair...I'll tell you what is unfair. Politicians are by nature immoral, and get to make descisions thinking that they know better than the people they represent....thinking the people are like silly children who don't know what is best for them. Here in Thaialnd where the majority are Buddhist laws have been passed which put us at a disadvantage. Buddhism is very tolerant of other religions and and so is Thailand. When the people wanted to make Buddhism the National religion they were denied. All religions get an equal say in things, so wheneve there is a meeting about religious affairs all religions get equal representation....not equal to their percentage of adherants within the country...so the 95% Buddhists get only as many representatives as the Christians who are a tiny minority...and suffer the pushy prostlytizing actions of those others who are given free reign. Of course the politicians who allow this are only Buddhist in name and in their greed for power allow the precepts to take a back row.

How about proportional representation?

I agree, proportional representation is only fair. I also think the Thai government gives out missionary visas too easily. Why encourage, to this degree, the Christians to come here to preach their message that Buddhists will all go to hell, because they don't accept "Jesus"? In Chiang Mai they offer free English lessons as a ploy to corner a Thai and preach. Some stand and scream their sermons in the middle of busy public areas. Their schools flaunt the Thai traditions. They get accepted here, but they don't accept themselves. I am embarrassed at this behavior by my admitted countrymen.

agreed, agreed and agreed - it's bizarre! Amazing Thailand

Edited December 24, 2011 by udonguy

[Gennadiy1480]

Fabian Fred Buddhism will not disappear in thialand

not while you alive so you don't worry about it.

rejoy

Edited December 25, 2011 by Gennadiy1480