Politicisation Of Police Force Ends Hopes Of Peace: Thai Opinion

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

Politicisation of police force ends hopes of peace

By The Nation

The sacking of Police chief Wichien Potephosree has put Thailand back on a political collision course

The police-chief saga that has been dominating front-page headlines over the past few days is only additional confirmation of what we knew would happen. Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung is quite good at getting the political ball rolling really quickly, but he is a bad actor. It has been obvious from the beginning that illegal casinos or drug problems are just a pretext. Police General Wichien Potephosree seemingly is losing his job for any reason but his performance. Pure and simple, he's falling victim to shifting political winds.

Democratic principles allow such a bureaucratic ordeal. To be able to chop and change the state mechanism to suit a government's policies is, in fact, a fundamental point of democracy. Wichien is not the first victim and he will not be the last. It's the way things are - or, you may argue, should be - in every democracy.

We can only wish the situation in Thailand was that simple, though. It's fair to say that the police-chief episode has dismayed a lot of Thais. For a government that pledged "repair and not revenge", to try to kick out the police chief just days after taking power and replace him with a brother of Thaksin Shinawatra's ex-wife - Priewpan Damapong - only raises serious doubt about the motive. If the intention is sincere, Chalerm has conveyed it very badly. As for Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, her public interaction on the issue so far only underlines how much she is in control of government power.

Yingluck has repeatedly said that everything concerning this affair was "up to" Chalerm. The more distant and disinterested she looks, the more arrogant Chalerm becomes. Putting him in charge of the police was an irony in the first place, given the past trouble his family has had with law enforcement.

Wichien was under pressure from day one of the new government thanks to a problem that no administration in the past had managed to solve. Make no mistake, Wichien did not fulfil his responsibility, and he cannot use his predecessors' failures as an excuse. But whether the government is using drugs and illegal gambling as a reason or pretext for removing him is another matter.

Will Chalerm ensure public safety now that he's supervising the police? Will he crack down on all gambling dens indiscriminately? Vice rackets are known to be operating in his constituency, as well. Will he also target them? These are among the questions doubters are asking the deputy prime minister, who has been quick to re-brand himself as a crime-buster.

The Yingluck government may be exercising its election mandate, but it's clear that the police force will continue to be politicised. Whether that will be good for the "repair and not revenge" slogan, and the hope for reconciliation as a whole, is very easy to tell. The divided Thai public has picked up where it left off before the election. One side is defending Chalerm as a courageous politician not afraid to do the necessary dirty jobs. The other side has been left speechless by the speed at what they see as political retribution taking place.

Wichien's fate just confirms that the political mentality remains what it has always been. On Thursday, controversial Pheu Thai MP Jatuporn Promphan claimed that another conspiracy against another pro-Thaksin government was just around the corner. He alleged that red shirts' "intelligence" had found out that efforts to overthrow the democratically elected administration would be stepped up in December. However, he warned that whoever was plotting against the Yingluck government would be up against the ire of the red shirts.

Little has changed. Cut-throat, partisan politics appears set to be amplified. Reconciliation, pledged so earnestly by Yingluck during and after the election campaign, is looking as - if not more - remote as before. Wichien's departure and Priewpan's arrival have shown us as much.

-- The Nation 2011-09-03

[zydeco]

"To be able to chop and change the state mechanism to suit a government's policies is, in fact, a fundamental point of democracy."

---------------------------------------

What? Are you mad? What this paper seems to think is "democracy" is in fact "anarchy". To "chop and change the state mechanism" at a whim has nothing to do with democracy. Any government, even any self respecting dictatorship, depends on a sense of continuity and predictability in the application of laws and regulations. That's why most civil bureaucracies, at least in any civil society worthy of the name, usually require something akin to a civil service exam instead of, say, someone paying a bribe in order to get an appointment. That's why even top ranking civil bureacrats in the US at least have fixed terms of office and exceptionally high ranking civil servants must undergo bipartisan confirmation hearings. This is not an issue of "fairness". Nobody really expects the law to be "fair". Thailand's laws, for example, should be expected to favor its own citizens over, say, foreigners. Here, we're seeing that not only foreigners, but anyone in Thailand can have their fate determined without judicial cause. The problem arises when "law" is subject to the whims of authority, which means you actually have no law whatsoever, at worst, and, at best, you have a kleptocracy, not a democracy. It's not hard to see where this all ends up for all the sloganeering we hear about "democracy" from certain quarters: One Vote One Time.

Edited September 2, 2011 by zydeco

[OzMick]

The typo in the first few words of the lead story in the "other paper" is worth noting.

[Bakseedaa]

"To be able to chop and change the state mechanism to suit a government's policies is, in fact, a fundamental point of democracy."

---------------------------------------

What? Are you mad? What this paper seems to think is "democracy" is in fact "anarchy". To "chop and change the state mechanism" at a whim has nothing to do with democracy. Any government, even any self respecting dictatorship, depends on a sense of continuity and predictability in the application of laws and regulations. That's why most civil bureaucracies, at least in any civil society worthy of the name, usually require something akin to a civil service exam instead of, say, someone paying a bribe in order to get an appointment. That's why even top ranking civil bureacrats in the US at least have fixed terms of office and exceptionally high ranking civil servants must undergo bipartisan confirmation hearings. This is not an issue of "fairness". Nobody really expects the law to be "fair". Thailand's laws, for example, should be expected to favor its own citizens over, say, foreigners. Here, we're seeing that not only foreigners, but anyone in Thailand can have their fate determined without judicial cause. The problem arises when "law" is subject to the whims of authority, which means you actually have no law whatsoever, at worst, and, at best, you have a kleptocracy, not a democracy. It's not hard to see where this all ends up for all the sloganeering we hear about "democracy" from certain quarters: One Vote One Time.

I could not have said it better..... but is anyone listening..? Poor Thailand..

[hammered]

So when the Dems and their BJT buddies stuff every civil service, police and military post with their friends nothing much gets said in multiple reshuffles and special reshuffles. However, when PTP come to government and move a few of these poltical appointees whole at the same time agreeing a reshuffle list with the sitting military appointees put in place by the last regime all manner of criticism breaks out. The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding.

In Thailand for decades, whoever is in power has stuffed everything with their people. Nothing is new. To understand exactly what is happening and why there is such a rabid outcry look to that manager cartoon of the amulet the sidelined police chief is wearing. Vicious power game

[OzMick]

In the other paper DPM Chalerm is quoted as saying that most casinos have been shut down, but that 3 major casinos were still operating because of their "complex structure".

I have a suggestion - chain and padlock all the doors. Preferably with the gaming equipment, staff and customers inside. Set up a charge desk at one door, allow them out one at a time to be charged, incarcerated, and brought before a judge. Every person. Then pull out the gaming equipment, smash it and burn it on the street outside. At which time, some of us may even believe that you are not just playing a big joke.

[OzMick]

So when the Dems and their BJT buddies stuff every civil service, police and military post with their friends nothing much gets said in multiple reshuffles and special reshuffles. However, when PTP come to government and move a few of these poltical appointees whole at the same time agreeing a reshuffle list with the sitting military appointees put in place by the last regime all manner of criticism breaks out. The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding.

In Thailand for decades, whoever is in power has stuffed everything with their people. Nothing is new. To understand exactly what is happening and why there is such a rabid outcry look to that manager cartoon of the amulet the sidelined police chief is wearing. Vicious power game

Perhaps you could provide us with a few examples of the Democrats nepotism and appointing persons with no discernable qualifications to high ranking positions, because I can't recall any. Or maybe it wasn't reported. Didn't we recently have a thread where you argued that if it wasn't reported it didn't happen?

2 points:

your mask of impartiality is slipping

it's nice that you think " The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding. "

[BigRick]

I always liked the freewheeling style of the Thai political system it is very Machiavellian. We win you lose, you win we lose. You can't expect mercy from your enemies just like they can't expect quarter for you. 99.9% of this has no impact on joe every farang except for a few morality that should be in place. Don't be pissed at the government for implementing policies that actually benefit the society as a whole. I don't think any country wants drunken belligerents especially at police stations and government buildings. There is always going to be a changing of the guard with a new government especially with the volatility involved with the last three political cycles. Living here a year has taught me one thing the lower echelon is always going to survive by any means necessary. I rather pay 200baht "fine" for something that I did that what I would pay in my home country that would involve going to court dealing with the court system. Corruption is inherent in most political systems it is the nature of the beast. Is America any different just because the corruption is at the highest level of government? I rather see 10,000 poor take advantage than 1 guy taking advantage of 10,000. Thailand has a lot to offer sure we don't always like the rules but rules are what govern nations.

[Roadman]

"To be able to chop and change the state mechanism to suit a government's policies is, in fact, a fundamental point of democracy."

---------------------------------------

What? Are you mad? What this paper seems to think is "democracy" is in fact "anarchy". To "chop and change the state mechanism" at a whim has nothing to do with democracy. Any government, even any self respecting dictatorship, depends on a sense of continuity and predictability in the application of laws and regulations. That's why most civil bureaucracies, at least in any civil society worthy of the name, usually require something akin to a civil service exam instead of, say, someone paying a bribe in order to get an appointment. That's why even top ranking civil bureacrats in the US at least have fixed terms of office and exceptionally high ranking civil servants must undergo bipartisan confirmation hearings. This is not an issue of "fairness". Nobody really expects the law to be "fair". Thailand's laws, for example, should be expected to favor its own citizens over, say, foreigners. Here, we're seeing that not only foreigners, but anyone in Thailand can have their fate determined without judicial cause. The problem arises when "law" is subject to the whims of authority, which means you actually have no law whatsoever, at worst, and, at best, you have a kleptocracy, not a democracy. It's not hard to see where this all ends up for all the sloganeering we hear about "democracy" from certain quarters: One Vote One Time.

That was the most obvious error (as you were this is Thailand and the Shinwatra's are setting up for their pillaging) that stuck out like dogs balls. Good that the very first post noted the stupidity of what Thai's think is democracy.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Roadman

[hammered]

So when the Dems and their BJT buddies stuff every civil service, police and military post with their friends nothing much gets said in multiple reshuffles and special reshuffles. However, when PTP come to government and move a few of these poltical appointees whole at the same time agreeing a reshuffle list with the sitting military appointees put in place by the last regime all manner of criticism breaks out. The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding.

In Thailand for decades, whoever is in power has stuffed everything with their people. Nothing is new. To understand exactly what is happening and why there is such a rabid outcry look to that manager cartoon of the amulet the sidelined police chief is wearing. Vicious power game

Perhaps you could provide us with a few examples of the Democrats nepotism and appointing persons with no discernable qualifications to high ranking positions, because I can't recall any. Or maybe it wasn't reported. Didn't we recently have a thread where you argued that if it wasn't reported it didn't happen?

2 points:

your mask of impartiality is slipping

it's nice that you think " The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding. "

I guess you havent been following Thai politics for the past few decades and particularly all the civil service, military and police changes made by the Dems and BJT over the last two years - thousands of them. Still if you want to live in a world where everything the dems do is right and everything PTP do is wrong I would suggest it is you who is impartial rather than me suggesting there is in fact no difference, which is also something every Thai person without exception of any political persuasion accepts to some degree or other.

Now lets see. The entire army was purged of anyone who may have links with anyone who may have links with Thaksin. And lets not forget the controversial battalion commanding position given to an officer lacking seniority who shared the same family name as the PM. The interior ministry was stuffed form top to bottom by BJT and Suthep. Of course the PM couldnt get his acting police chief to be accepted and of course Wichien lacked the seniority of another deputy when appointed but the most senior deputy happened to be the guy coming in now and of course he was overlooked because of other reasons

It is time to get real and recognize that they are the same, which is the impartial way to look at it. Otherwise you end up taking sides. My only siding is with the thai people who have the right to chose their government and they have. There are no good and bad sides. They are both grey. One thing that is currently breaking down rapidly in Thailand is the idea of a good honest leader on a white horse saving the country as all the leaders are flawed and to be honest more people see Thaksin as a great leader on a white horse than Abhisit

I am utterly amazed you sit there and think the Democrats who the Thai people reject time after time are some kind of force for good in Thailand even when the people of the country dont want them and they manage to side with any anti-democratic movement they can find. I would truly like the dems to give up these stupid links and engage fully in democracy. Then the country might have a viable alternative and those who dont like Thaksin and his mates may even have a voice that isnt destined to defeat by its linkage to old style managed democracy. The Dems have let the country down with their stupid decisions as much as any excess by Thaksin and his buddies.

[OzMick]

So when the Dems and their BJT buddies stuff every civil service, police and military post with their friends nothing much gets said in multiple reshuffles and special reshuffles. However, when PTP come to government and move a few of these poltical appointees whole at the same time agreeing a reshuffle list with the sitting military appointees put in place by the last regime all manner of criticism breaks out. The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding.

In Thailand for decades, whoever is in power has stuffed everything with their people. Nothing is new. To understand exactly what is happening and why there is such a rabid outcry look to that manager cartoon of the amulet the sidelined police chief is wearing. Vicious power game

Perhaps you could provide us with a few examples of the Democrats nepotism and appointing persons with no discernable qualifications to high ranking positions, because I can't recall any. Or maybe it wasn't reported. Didn't we recently have a thread where you argued that if it wasn't reported it didn't happen?

2 points:

your mask of impartiality is slipping

it's nice that you think " The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding. "

I guess you havent been following Thai politics for the past few decades and particularly all the civil service, military and police changes made by the Dems and BJT over the last two years - thousands of them. Still if you want to live in a world where everything the dems do is right and everything PTP do is wrong I would suggest it is you who is impartial rather than me suggesting there is in fact no difference, which is also something every Thai person without exception of any political persuasion accepts to some degree or other.

Now lets see. The entire army was purged of anyone who may have links with anyone who may have links with Thaksin. And lets not forget the controversial battalion commanding position given to an officer lacking seniority who shared the same family name as the PM. The interior ministry was stuffed form top to bottom by BJT and Suthep. Of course the PM couldnt get his acting police chief to be accepted and of course Wichien lacked the seniority of another deputy when appointed but the most senior deputy happened to be the guy coming in now and of course he was overlooked because of other reasons

It is time to get real and recognize that they are the same, which is the impartial way to look at it. Otherwise you end up taking sides. My only siding is with the thai people who have the right to chose their government and they have. There are no good and bad sides. They are both grey. One thing that is currently breaking down rapidly in Thailand is the idea of a good honest leader on a white horse saving the country as all the leaders are flawed and to be honest more people see Thaksin as a great leader on a white horse than Abhisit

I am utterly amazed you sit there and think the Democrats who the Thai people reject time after time are some kind of force for good in Thailand even when the people of the country dont want them and they manage to side with any anti-democratic movement they can find. I would truly like the dems to give up these stupid links and engage fully in democracy. Then the country might have a viable alternative and those who dont like Thaksin and his mates may even have a voice that isnt destined to defeat by its linkage to old style managed democracy. The Dems have let the country down with their stupid decisions as much as any excess by Thaksin and his buddies.

How did the most senior deputy fet to be the most senior deputy - because his BIL gave him a rocket rise through the ranks, 2 promotions in one year yet - did you forget that, or don't you consider that a reasonable reason to overlook his "seniority".

I make no pretensions of impartiality - I hate everything Thaksin and the rest of his avaricious clan represent. At least in the Democrats, I could see some policies that would work for the benefit of the Thai people, given enough time in office. I have no illusions about Thaksin's funding of the Red shirts, their motivation was completely transparent behind the facade of a call for democracy, and the deaths of protesters a necessity for the denigration of the Democrats.

I consider your backing of PTP's mandate a simplistic view of democracy, which to work requires an informed populace with access to a free and critical press, and sufficient education to understand the arguments put forward by both sides. That is singularly lacking in this country, more so in Isaan.

As I said earlier, even PTP supporters consider Thaksin a thief, but believe that he is untouchable. Putting him in a cell for 10 years or so would go a long way to changing the Thai peoples views and installing something which actually approaches the democratic ideal.

I also believe Thaksin is waiting for the day that he stops being the 2nd most popular man in Thailand and becomes the most popular. Times of flux are a great opportunity for despots to seize power. It may get very ugly.

[thaibeachlovers]

So when the Dems and their BJT buddies stuff every civil service, police and military post with their friends nothing much gets said in multiple reshuffles and special reshuffles. However, when PTP come to government and move a few of these poltical appointees whole at the same time agreeing a reshuffle list with the sitting military appointees put in place by the last regime all manner of criticism breaks out. The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding.

In Thailand for decades, whoever is in power has stuffed everything with their people. Nothing is new. To understand exactly what is happening and why there is such a rabid outcry look to that manager cartoon of the amulet the sidelined police chief is wearing. Vicious power game

Perhaps you could provide us with a few examples of the Democrats nepotism and appointing persons with no discernable qualifications to high ranking positions, because I can't recall any. Or maybe it wasn't reported. Didn't we recently have a thread where you argued that if it wasn't reported it didn't happen?

2 points:

your mask of impartiality is slipping

it's nice that you think " The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding. "

I guess you havent been following Thai politics for the past few decades and particularly all the civil service, military and police changes made by the Dems and BJT over the last two years - thousands of them. Still if you want to live in a world where everything the dems do is right and everything PTP do is wrong I would suggest it is you who is impartial rather than me suggesting there is in fact no difference, which is also something every Thai person without exception of any political persuasion accepts to some degree or other.

Now lets see. The entire army was purged of anyone who may have links with anyone who may have links with Thaksin. And lets not forget the controversial battalion commanding position given to an officer lacking seniority who shared the same family name as the PM. The interior ministry was stuffed form top to bottom by BJT and Suthep. Of course the PM couldnt get his acting police chief to be accepted and of course Wichien lacked the seniority of another deputy when appointed but the most senior deputy happened to be the guy coming in now and of course he was overlooked because of other reasons

It is time to get real and recognize that they are the same, which is the impartial way to look at it. Otherwise you end up taking sides. My only siding is with the thai people who have the right to chose their government and they have. There are no good and bad sides. They are both grey. One thing that is currently breaking down rapidly in Thailand is the idea of a good honest leader on a white horse saving the country as all the leaders are flawed and to be honest more people see Thaksin as a great leader on a white horse than Abhisit

I am utterly amazed you sit there and think the Democrats who the Thai people reject time after time are some kind of force for good in Thailand even when the people of the country dont want them and they manage to side with any anti-democratic movement they can find. I would truly like the dems to give up these stupid links and engage fully in democracy. Then the country might have a viable alternative and those who dont like Thaksin and his mates may even have a voice that isnt destined to defeat by its linkage to old style managed democracy. The Dems have let the country down with their stupid decisions as much as any excess by Thaksin and his buddies.

How did the most senior deputy fet to be the most senior deputy - because his BIL gave him a rocket rise through the ranks, 2 promotions in one year yet - did you forget that, or don't you consider that a reasonable reason to overlook his "seniority".

I make no pretensions of impartiality - I hate everything Thaksin and the rest of his avaricious clan represent. At least in the Democrats, I could see some policies that would work for the benefit of the Thai people, given enough time in office. I have no illusions about Thaksin's funding of the Red shirts, their motivation was completely transparent behind the facade of a call for democracy, and the deaths of protesters a necessity for the denigration of the Democrats.

I consider your backing of PTP's mandate a simplistic view of democracy, which to work requires an informed populace with access to a free and critical press, and sufficient education to understand the arguments put forward by both sides. That is singularly lacking in this country, more so in Isaan.

As I said earlier, even PTP supporters consider Thaksin a thief, but believe that he is untouchable. Putting him in a cell for 10 years or so would go a long way to changing the Thai peoples views and installing something which actually approaches the democratic ideal.

I also believe Thaksin is waiting for the day that he stops being the 2nd most popular man in Thailand and becomes the most popular. Times of flux are a great opportunity for despots to seize power. It may get very ugly.

Hear hear.

I find it unbelievable that posters claim to support the "law", but think that Thaksin should be able to come back and lead the country. Either one upholds the "law", which means Thaksin is a criminal, or they don't, which means they support anarchy.

Whether one likes him or not is irrelevant in this case.

[kraplung]

There are enough Thais who have a blind faith in Thaksin to ensure he will return. It is just a question of whether there are enough Thais who believe like some sort of anti-christ he must be stopped. In the meantime we farang can only watch and wait.

Edited September 3, 2011 by kraplung

[Arkady]

It is true what The Nation says but the situation was compounded by the Democrat Party's own political choice of such a weak and inexperienced character as Wichean who rolled over as soon as Chalerm said "boo". If they had made a more robust choice there might at least have been a prolonged fight that would draw more attention to this situation.

[whybother]

So when the Dems and their BJT buddies stuff every civil service, police and military post with their friends nothing much gets said in multiple reshuffles and special reshuffles. However, when PTP come to government and move a few of these poltical appointees whole at the same time agreeing a reshuffle list with the sitting military appointees put in place by the last regime all manner of criticism breaks out. The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding.

In Thailand for decades, whoever is in power has stuffed everything with their people. Nothing is new. To understand exactly what is happening and why there is such a rabid outcry look to that manager cartoon of the amulet the sidelined police chief is wearing. Vicious power game

As I mentioned in another thread (which you seem to have conveniently ignored), the Democrats replaced the Police Chief after they were in power for 9 months AND he was retiring. They didn't force him out and replace him with a relative.

Edited September 3, 2011 by whybother

[473geo]

From the OP

"Wichien did not fulfil his responsibilty"

Edited September 3, 2011 by 473geo

[animatic]

Any sense of hope for a peaceful future was erased July 4th - 31st. Two months in and the writing is on the wall for all to see, even if some have not understood the meaning ... yet. And each and every day what false hope existed has been whittle and hacked into a pitiful pile of regrets and recriminations.

[rixalex]

So when the Dems and their BJT buddies stuff every civil service, police and military post with their friends nothing much gets said in multiple reshuffles and special reshuffles. However, when PTP come to government and move a few of these poltical appointees whole at the same time agreeing a reshuffle list with the sitting military appointees put in place by the last regime all manner of criticism breaks out. The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding.

In Thailand for decades, whoever is in power has stuffed everything with their people. Nothing is new. To understand exactly what is happening and why there is such a rabid outcry look to that manager cartoon of the amulet the sidelined police chief is wearing. Vicious power game

I think you are right, this is all stuff we have seen many times before, although perhaps the way this has been done - forcing the man out early and replacing with a close relative - is a little more blatant, and perhaps that is why the reaction is stronger.

At the end of the day though, whether you believe it was equally as bad under the last lot or not, what i don't understand about your standpoint is why now, on the basis of it having happened before, you encourage people to sit back, allow it to happen, and stop making a fuss, because that's the way it was, and that's the way it is. This seems to be your position on all PTP related matters. I just don't get it. It's no different to me to saying "well murder isn't new, people have been murdered since the beginning of time, so stop fretting, and just let the killing continue". You don't stop opposing something just because it's been done before, do you? Sure, it might be unrealistic to expect things to change. But don't give in to it.

It seems though that you already have.

[Deez]

He(Jaturporn) alleged that red shirts' "intelligence"

[473geo]

From the OP

"Wichien did not fulfil his responsibilty"

[hammered]

So when the Dems and their BJT buddies stuff every civil service, police and military post with their friends nothing much gets said in multiple reshuffles and special reshuffles. However, when PTP come to government and move a few of these poltical appointees whole at the same time agreeing a reshuffle list with the sitting military appointees put in place by the last regime all manner of criticism breaks out. The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding.

In Thailand for decades, whoever is in power has stuffed everything with their people. Nothing is new. To understand exactly what is happening and why there is such a rabid outcry look to that manager cartoon of the amulet the sidelined police chief is wearing. Vicious power game

I think you are right, this is all stuff we have seen many times before, although perhaps the way this has been done - forcing the man out early and replacing with a close relative - is a little more blatant, and perhaps that is why the reaction is stronger.

At the end of the day though, whether you believe it was equally as bad under the last lot or not, what i don't understand about your standpoint is why now, on the basis of it having happened before, you encourage people to sit back, allow it to happen, and stop making a fuss, because that's the way it was, and that's the way it is. This seems to be your position on all PTP related matters. I just don't get it. It's no different to me to saying "well murder isn't new, people have been murdered since the beginning of time, so stop fretting, and just let the killing continue". You don't stop opposing something just because it's been done before, do you? Sure, it might be unrealistic to expect things to change. But don't give in to it.

It seems though that you already have.

Abhisit was right when he called it a let the people decide election. They have. The government as every other has needs to get the bureaucracy set up to carry out its policies and that means removing obvious trees in the path. Those issues arent the big ones. Then it can be lets see what people want with constitution, and i hope they stick with letting people decide, and they can also enact the policies or as many as they chose to or can that they were elected for and launch their brand of reconciliation which people or us may or may not like. Then when it is all over let the people judge them at the next election. In the meantime there are courts and the dems can launch theor censures and lets not forget the way the current senate is set up leaves a majority that wouldnt usually side with PTP in that body. The army are also being left alone it seems. Police, security orgs and civil service though are vital to government policy enactment and those at the top of these are always political appointments.

Have a read of that RA piece on NM. It spells out exactly the PTP thinking of how political structure works and explains why they do what they do. The PAD use the same analysis oddly enough as do a lot of those who follow Thai politics although views on the Dem party may vary a bit from what is in the piece

[whybother]

From the OP

"Wichien did not fulfil his responsibilty"

And he's being replaced by someone who has already been shown to not fulfill his responsibility ... but that's ok, because of his relative.

[SICHONSTEVE]

So when the Dems and their BJT buddies stuff every civil service, police and military post with their friends nothing much gets said in multiple reshuffles and special reshuffles. However, when PTP come to government and move a few of these poltical appointees whole at the same time agreeing a reshuffle list with the sitting military appointees put in place by the last regime all manner of criticism breaks out. The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding.

In Thailand for decades, whoever is in power has stuffed everything with their people. Nothing is new. To understand exactly what is happening and why there is such a rabid outcry look to that manager cartoon of the amulet the sidelined police chief is wearing. Vicious power game

Perhaps you could provide us with a few examples of the Democrats nepotism and appointing persons with no discernable qualifications to high ranking positions, because I can't recall any. Or maybe it wasn't reported. Didn't we recently have a thread where you argued that if it wasn't reported it didn't happen?

2 points:

your mask of impartiality is slipping

it's nice that you think " The pure lack of hypocrisy is astounding. "

Despite accusations of elitism levelled at the Democrat Party, Kannikar Apisukpaisarn, a coffee-shop owner in Bangkok, believes Thaksin and Pheu Thai are guiltier of nepotism and cronyism.

"His sister was never interested in politics before. They are a family party," she says, adding that Thaksin had done some good things for the country, "but with his major projects like Suvarnabhumi airport and the healthcare scheme, the contractors are always members of his family".

Right!!!!

This is just 2 examples of ordinary people's thoughts on who they regard as being more prone to practice nepotism and cronyism.

Can you honestly say that all those 26 red shirts were given positions on account of merit or qualifications????

What Yingl;uck has done is wholely irresponsible and despicable . Please tell me just how the impositioning of these "ordinary people" simply to placate them can be sensible and beneficial to Thailand. She (Yingluck) is storing up huge problems for the future in what she has done and her pledge not to pursue retribution and achieve reconciliation were hollow promises - seemingly abandoned before they were given the chance!!!! Not a good omen at all for the future. She had a chance to repair the damage but instead, she has picked this up and smashed it to smithereens.

[473geo]

From the OP

"Wichien did not fulfil his responsibilty"

And he's being replaced by someone who has already been shown to not fulfill his responsibility ... but that's ok, because of his relative.

Asia is very family orientated, prominent in many walks of life, had you not noticed? it is a quality I admire, though not necessarily in politics, although I would suggest nepotism is fairly widespread and accepted in the public service and private business structures...... it would appear in some cases Thailand not tolerant when people 'do not fulfil their responsibilty'...a quality I would like to see more evident in the appraisal of high profile positions such law enforcement officers.......if the next guy does not fulfil his responsibilty he should go down the road too.....

[whybother]

From the OP

"Wichien did not fulfil his responsibilty"

And he's being replaced by someone who has already been shown to not fulfill his responsibility ... but that's ok, because of his relative.

Asia is very family orientated, prominent in many walks of life, had you not noticed? it is a quality I admire, though not necessarily in politics, although I would suggest nepotism is fairly widespread and accepted in the public service and private business structures...... it would appear in some cases Thailand not tolerant when people 'do not fulfil their responsibilty'...a quality I would like to see more evident in the appraisal of high profile positions such law enforcement officers.......if the next guy does not fulfil his responsibilty he should go down the road too.....

IF? History.

[rixalex]

I think you are right, this is all stuff we have seen many times before, although perhaps the way this has been done - forcing the man out early and replacing with a close relative - is a little more blatant, and perhaps that is why the reaction is stronger.

At the end of the day though, whether you believe it was equally as bad under the last lot or not, what i don't understand about your standpoint is why now, on the basis of it having happened before, you encourage people to sit back, allow it to happen, and stop making a fuss, because that's the way it was, and that's the way it is. This seems to be your position on all PTP related matters. I just don't get it. It's no different to me to saying "well murder isn't new, people have been murdered since the beginning of time, so stop fretting, and just let the killing continue". You don't stop opposing something just because it's been done before, do you? Sure, it might be unrealistic to expect things to change. But don't give in to it.

It seems though that you already have.

Abhisit was right when he called it a let the people decide election. They have. The government as every other has needs to get the bureaucracy set up to carry out its policies and that means removing obvious trees in the path. Those issues arent the big ones. Then it can be lets see what people want with constitution, and i hope they stick with letting people decide, and they can also enact the policies or as many as they chose to or can that they were elected for and launch their brand of reconciliation which people or us may or may not like. Then when it is all over let the people judge them at the next election. In the meantime there are courts and the dems can launch theor censures and lets not forget the way the current senate is set up leaves a majority that wouldnt usually side with PTP in that body. The army are also being left alone it seems. Police, security orgs and civil service though are vital to government policy enactment and those at the top of these are always political appointments.

Have a read of that RA piece on NM. It spells out exactly the PTP thinking of how political structure works and explains why they do what they do. The PAD use the same analysis oddly enough as do a lot of those who follow Thai politics although views on the Dem party may vary a bit from what is in the piece

Your automatic response these days to criticism of the government or of politicians is "the people have decided". One answer fits all it seems.

I don't dispute that the people have decided, and i am not trying to deny them their choice. Please stop implying that to criticise what the government does is in some way undemocratic, because it is in fact, quite the opposite.

By all means lay down in the name of "the people decided". That is your choice. But allow those who wish to stand when they see something they disagree with, to stand.

[473geo]

An accurate overview of this thread provided in the OP

"One side is defending Chalerm as a courageous politician not afraid to do the necessary dirty jobs. The other side has been left speechless by the speed at what they see as political retribution taking place."

I do think however 'political retribution' is a little strong for replacing somebody the OP states 'did not fulfil his responsibilty'

[whybother]

An accurate overview of this thread provided in the OP

"One side is defending Chalerm as a courageous politician not afraid to do the necessary dirty jobs. The other side has been left speechless by the speed at what they see as political retribution taking place."

I do think however 'political retribution' is a little strong for replacing somebody the OP states 'did not fulfil his responsibilty'

... with someone who doesn't have a much better history. (But that's OK, because it's Thaksin's relative).

[hammered]

An accurate overview of this thread provided in the OP

"One side is defending Chalerm as a courageous politician not afraid to do the necessary dirty jobs. The other side has been left speechless by the speed at what they see as political retribution taking place."

I do think however 'political retribution' is a little strong for replacing somebody the OP states 'did not fulfil his responsibilty'

Chalerm has had some almost unique positive stuff in the Thai media over this. He usually gets very negative portrayals but not this time. Rampant gambling and drugs and bribery seem to be the issues rather than political. It is always interesting to see the differences from Thai to English language media. Obviously different audiences and maybe wanting in English to present a different face of Thai society.

[473geo]

An accurate overview of this thread provided in the OP

"One side is defending Chalerm as a courageous politician not afraid to do the necessary dirty jobs. The other side has been left speechless by the speed at what they see as political retribution taking place."

I do think however 'political retribution' is a little strong for replacing somebody the OP states 'did not fulfil his responsibilty'

... with someone who doesn't have a much better history. (But that's OK, because it's Thaksin's relative).

I didn't realise he had a 'better history' at all.....has he done the job before?.............but it would appear by the comments of the OP that they expect Chalerm may run the show, hence the reference to political interference, I would expect he wants somebody who will carry out instructions

I guess the removal could be unfair if Wichean neither had the authority or instruction to curb corruption.....if that is the case, he can hardly blame the incoming government can he?