The (Near) Imminent Collapse Of The (Southern ) Euro

[JurgenG]

And the blackmail of an english referendum that will "break up the EU" is not a blackmail at all. It seems an increasing number of countries want the UK out. You talked the talk, now walk the walk.

So your position is that the EU would be stronger without the UK?

In almost every organization you have a "star" member, we had one in our office 2 years ago. A very smart guy, recognized and respected by his colleagues as so. But at one point he starts thinking he is untouchable, he stops following the rules, challenge constantly the management, creates division inside the company .... It's always a big problem for the management, they realize this guy is constantly creating problem but on the other hand, he is a top professional, a real asset for the company. My advise ? Fire the guy immediately. His colleagues will appreciate the more serene atmosphere in the office and he will soon be forgotten.

It's the same here. The UK is a real asset for the European Union. But if the UK can't be a positive member of the European Union, it doesn't matter what they could bring to the table, the UK should go.

[JurgenG]

The fat lady hasn't finished singing. The French socialists will renegotiate the treaty if they win. Merkel is getting stick for allowing herself to be involved in French domestic politics.

It's election time in France. The socialist candidate has to say he is going to do things differently that Mr Sakozy, what the point to elect him if he follows the same policy ? At the beginning of his mandate, Mr Sakozy was called "the American", he changed the position of France on a number of important issues (Iraq war, NATO ...) but now he is a true European. The French will always be French, that's why Ms Merkel would have appreciated the help of Mr Cameron to counter balance the excess of Mr Sarkozy, but unfortunately Mr Cameron was no match

[theblether]

What went wrong for Mr Cameron ?

"Politically speaking, when the banks are considered the enemy and the root of all the problems we have today, Cameron's arguments were the wrong arguments at the wrong time for the wrong people," an official said. "Politically, he was dead from the start."

... It took 10 or 20 minutes to see that most of the participants were not pleased at all with the idea of Britain getting an opt out or exceptional treatment for their financial services and it didn't fly at all. There was no understanding for it.

... European Union President Herman Van Rompuy, who chaired the meeting, proposed moving forward with an intergovernmental agreement of the 17 euro zone nations, with an open invitation for other countries to join. France said yes, immediately followed by Germany and then one by one, in a matter of seconds the member states of the euro zone backed the Franco-German call. Within a few minutes, the non-euro zone member states decided they wanted to be in and left Cameron completely isolated. The swing was very, very quick. Everybody was on board in a matter of minutes. I think it was obvious inside the room that Cameron was shocked by the swiftness with which his allies left him alone.

"Cameron made a serious miscalculation, all this will now have serious repercussions on the relationship between Britain and the EU."

http://www.reuters.c...E7BA0BD20111212

· "It is like being as isolated as a man who failed to get onto the Titanic ...", Terry Smith talking about the so called isolation of the UK.

http://www.terrysmithblog.com/

There is a complete and utter refusal by many people, far too many people, including you Jurgeng, to understand one simple thing here.

The Euro is highly likely to fail.

It does not matter what the politicians say, it matters what the world markets say. There are at least 6 members of the Euro who are either insolvent or technically insolvent. Italy cannot afford the premium being asked of it by the bonds markets. Last weeks meeting was all about future plans, the money was not supplied to underwrite the Eurozone liabilities.

The Germans capped the fund at 500 Billion Euro, nowhere near enough There then followed a vague suggestion that there would be more available later, under certain circumstances. This is exactly the kind of garbage talk that has run through every summit this year. If the Germans had said last week that the fund would be granted a banking licence and would be able to call up on effectively limitless reserves then the Euro problem would have evaporated overnight.

The Germans did not do so because they know that they will be left to carry the can, and Merkel would have riots on the streets.

So now maybe you can tell us how the Germans are going to ensure that the debts of the insolvent Euro members are going to be paid?

You said it all for me. Completely agree 100%

I'll just add that all the austerity will make matters even worse as the "solution" is put in to place. Also French and german borrowing costs will rise dramatically.

Correct.........there seems to be a pattern forming in relation to this matter.

The Europhiles such as Jurgeng are not able to understand that the UK is not the issue here.............

The Brit Bashers such as naam are coming at it from a different angle, but as usual they are missing the point completely............

The current state of the Euro is nothing to do with the UK..............

The current state of the Euro is nothing to do with the banking crisis...............

At this point the Europhiles and the Brit Bashers will be having fits of rage.................

The problem the Euro is having just now was pointed out to the Eurozone nations a long long time before the Euro started..................

Uncompetitive countries with vast debts could never align financially with Germany.............

It was and still is an impossible task.

I remember reading an article in the Economist is 1992, I wish I could find it and post it here. The Economist was talking about the woeful tax collection record of the Greek economy. I remember the article talking about the fact that the Greeks were sending tax inspectors to stand outside shops to make sure that people were paying VAT. The shopkeepers were giving dummy VAT receipts to the customers and refusing to cooperate with the tax authorities.

The Greeks evaded paying tax on an industrial scale. In a country famed for it's shipping, and the Onassis family, there were only 8 registered millionaires in a population of 11 million. I am from Glasgow, Scotland. There are over 8,000 millionaires in a city of 600,000. Does the Greek figure look right to you?

The Greeks had no chance of ever balancing the economy, but the Eurozone let them join. An act of crass and unbelievable stupidity, which has now been admitted as such. They should have been allowed to go bust this year.

The Irish went on an orgy of spending, and bust their economy. Blah blah blah, I can't be bothered going over the same old stuff again and again. The Euro is an act of political folly, it was a grandiose scheme in it's current form that could never work, as the foundations were set in quicksand.

The only way the Euro had a chance of being successful was if it had started with only Germany, France, Holland and Luxembourg as the members. Even Belgium was so in debt that they should not have been allowed to join at the start. The first four economies were sufficiently aligned to allow a reasonable chance of success.

The UK is all for free trade, open markets, free movement of people within Europe etc. On many subjects the UK and Germany sing from the same sheet, in fact you will find more synergy between the UK and Germany than Germany and France, who are by nature protectionist. However here is the problem in a nutshell, again quoting from Terry Smith.

" The eurozone leaders also fear the markets because they are the last thing which holds them to account.Because the eurozone countries are running such large budget deficits they are answerable to the bond markets which are now refusing to supply those funds."

http://www.terrysmithblog.com/

We can all dream of big houses, fancy yachts, super-cars and amazing holidays............but in the end someone has to pay. Who's going to pay? Not the politicians on their gold plated index linked pensions........it's going to be the man in the street.

There's too many ostrich politicians in Europe at the moment.

[theblether]

So your position is that the EU would be stronger without the UK?

I don't have enough information about that to be certain, but it certainly can be argued.

The iron Lady (Thatcher) negociated everything EU-related to be at UK's financial advantage or zero.

The biggest EU project at that time was agriculture, so Thatcher negociated exceptions for the UK that made sure the UK would recoup the money spent for the EU budget through the agricultural aid paid to UK farmers - this was an official negociation point.

UK also participated in other EU-projects such as Coal&Steel production, Airbus, Eurocopter, etc.

Everything had of course to benefit the UK or at least not to cost them anything.

On the other big EU convergence projects like Schengen and the EURO, UK failed to participate.

Also, UK's behavior in the past years was that of a lapdog to the US, being a bit as the voice (and eyes and ears, LOL) of the Us in the EU, and failing to enforce data protection.

So, my impression of the UK in the EU is that the UK picked the chocolate chips off the cookie and left the rest, always asking "what is in it for me" and refusing to contribute or compromise.

The current attitude of the UK is understandable if the importance of London's financial business is taken into account, mostly founded on the fact that UK trusts and companies are the worldwide number one vehicle for tax evasion (Channel Islands trusts, British Virgin Islands corporations,...).

One question that has to be asked is: what has the UK ever done for the EU?

I have no answer to that one.

And you are asking if the EU will be stronger without the UK - but was it stronger WITH the UK in the first place? Did the UK matter at all?

So... if the UK leaves the EU, there won't be much loss, the EU gets rid of a big naysayer and the EU gains coherence.

Due to the UK's past attitude towards the EU (i.e. no investment in the EU), there will be no financial loss.

I assume that the UK will continue cooperations if they are profitable (Airbus) - in best British manner.

Thanks for your argument, however you are totally wrong. Go and make certain of your facts and try again.

[theblether]

And the blackmail of an english referendum that will "break up the EU" is not a blackmail at all. It seems an increasing number of countries want the UK out. You talked the talk, now walk the walk.

So your position is that the EU would be stronger without the UK?

In almost every organization you have a "star" member, we had one in our office 2 years ago. A very smart guy, recognized and respected by his colleagues as so. But at one point he starts thinking he is untouchable, he stops following the rules, challenge constantly the management, creates division inside the company .... It's always a big problem for the management, they realize this guy is constantly creating problem but on the other hand, he is a top professional, a real asset for the company. My advise ? Fire the guy immediately. His colleagues will appreciate the more serene atmosphere in the office and he will soon be forgotten.

It's the same here. The UK is a real asset for the European Union. But if the UK can't be a positive member of the European Union, it doesn't matter what they could bring to the table, the UK should go.

A very interesting analogy Jurgeng, and I thank you for it........now let's run with it.

Germany is the star member of the EU

Germany came up with the idea of the Euro

Germany was warned that the Euro couldn't work in the form that they proposed

Germany went ahead and did it anyway

Germany was proved wrong

A year ago Germany insisted that private equity should take a loss on Greek bonds

Germany was correct

The price to be paid for being correct was that Germany would have to watch Italian and Spanish bond prices going through the roof

Germany doesn't like that as it threatens the stability of their baby, the Euro

Sarkozy tells Germany that they cannot insist on private equity taking hits on sovereign bonds,

Germany moans and groans and allocates a fund of 500 billion Euros to bail out the Euro zone countries

The markets say.......not enough......

Germany says.......go away you bad market men, we don't like you

The market men say.......we don't care, and we are going to ensure that we get a profit on our risky investments, so Italian bonds are now 6.95%

Italy says, oh no!! we can't afford that!! We must turn to the fund to ensure cheaper borrowing

The fund runs out

The Germans huff and puff and hey...........the whole Euro house blows down.

Germany is a very naughty star member

[theblether]

The fat lady hasn't finished singing. The French socialists will renegotiate the treaty if they win. Merkel is getting stick for allowing herself to be involved in French domestic politics.

It's election time in France. The socialist candidate has to say he is going to do things differently that Mr Sakozy, what the point to elect him if he follows the same policy ? At the beginning of his mandate, Mr Sakozy was called "the American", he changed the position of France on a number of important issues (Iraq war, NATO ...) but now he is a true European. The French will always be French, that's why Ms Merkel would have appreciated the help of Mr Cameron to counter balance the excess of Mr Sarkozy, but unfortunately Mr Cameron was no match

There is no doubt about it that David Cameron was ambushed last week...........now we can argue whether that was a good thing for the EU or a bad thing, equally we can argue the same for the UK

I'm sorry to have to hit you below the belt however you used this article earlier in one of your posts

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/world/europe/euro-crisis-pits-germany-and-us-in-tactical-fight.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&hpw

I recommend anyone that has an interest in this subject reads it.

The Germans are celebrating the end of democracy in Italy............and refusing to accept that the lenders, the international money markets, have any significant role to play. The Germans are in for a very nasty shock.

[elliss]

The fat lady hasn't finished singing. The French socialists will renegotiate the treaty if they win. Merkel is getting stick for allowing herself to be involved in French domestic politics.

imo, merkel will be voted out ,of the french bed,in the next election.

the industreous german people must be fed up of supporting the weaker european countries.

bttopic, i really dont think it will effect the thai economy ,

the japanese / chinese industrial investors , are the main players in thailand.

:jap:

[theblether]

So your position is that the EU would be stronger without the UK?

I don't have enough information about that to be certain, but it certainly can be argued.

The iron Lady (Thatcher) negociated everything EU-related to be at UK's financial advantage or zero.

The biggest EU project at that time was agriculture, so Thatcher negociated exceptions for the UK that made sure the UK would recoup the money spent for the EU budget through the agricultural aid paid to UK farmers - this was an official negociation point.

UK also participated in other EU-projects such as Coal&Steel production, Airbus, Eurocopter, etc.

Everything had of course to benefit the UK or at least not to cost them anything.

On the other big EU convergence projects like Schengen and the EURO, UK failed to participate.

Also, UK's behavior in the past years was that of a lapdog to the US, being a bit as the voice (and eyes and ears, LOL) of the Us in the EU, and failing to enforce data protection.

So, my impression of the UK in the EU is that the UK picked the chocolate chips off the cookie and left the rest, always asking "what is in it for me" and refusing to contribute or compromise.

The current attitude of the UK is understandable if the importance of London's financial business is taken into account, mostly founded on the fact that UK trusts and companies are the worldwide number one vehicle for tax evasion (Channel Islands trusts, British Virgin Islands corporations,...).

One question that has to be asked is: what has the UK ever done for the EU?

I have no answer to that one.

And you are asking if the EU will be stronger without the UK - but was it stronger WITH the UK in the first place? Did the UK matter at all?

So... if the UK leaves the EU, there won't be much loss, the EU gets rid of a big naysayer and the EU gains coherence.

Due to the UK's past attitude towards the EU (i.e. no investment in the EU), there will be no financial loss.

I assume that the UK will continue cooperations if they are profitable (Airbus) - in best British manner.

Thanks for your argument, however you are totally wrong. Go and make certain of your facts and try again.

[thaimate]

If Britain leaves Europe it will be a rope gone from around our neck ,we plough money in so that the likes of the Greeks and Italians can retire early ,they told us if we did not join the Euro we were doomed ,we weren't now they say if we leave the E.U we will be doomed ,we wont , the sooner we are out and on our own again without that crazy dwarf from france and the communist from germany the better.

[theblether]

If Britain leaves Europe it will be a rope gone from around our neck ,we plough money in so that the likes of the Greeks and Italians can retire early ,they told us if we did not join the Euro we were doomed ,we weren't now they say if we leave the E.U we will be doomed ,we wont , the sooner we are out and on our own again without that crazy dwarf from france and the communist from germany the better.

By the way you'll have to be careful because some of our Europhile experts here actually think, ( and I'm quoting from Manarak here )

Quote

"Due to the UK's past attitude towards the EU (i.e. no investment in the EU), there will be no financial loss."

This is the level of debate we've stooped to........some of these Europhiles actually think we don't send any money to Brussels

These Europhiles seriously don't have a clue.

[manarak]

So your position is that the EU would be stronger without the UK?

I don't have enough information about that to be certain, but it certainly can be argued.

The iron Lady (Thatcher) negociated everything EU-related to be at UK's financial advantage or zero.

The biggest EU project at that time was agriculture, so Thatcher negociated exceptions for the UK that made sure the UK would recoup the money spent for the EU budget through the agricultural aid paid to UK farmers - this was an official negociation point.

UK also participated in other EU-projects such as Coal&Steel production, Airbus, Eurocopter, etc.

Everything had of course to benefit the UK or at least not to cost them anything.

On the other big EU convergence projects like Schengen and the EURO, UK failed to participate.

Also, UK's behavior in the past years was that of a lapdog to the US, being a bit as the voice (and eyes and ears, LOL) of the Us in the EU, and failing to enforce data protection.

So, my impression of the UK in the EU is that the UK picked the chocolate chips off the cookie and left the rest, always asking "what is in it for me" and refusing to contribute or compromise.

The current attitude of the UK is understandable if the importance of London's financial business is taken into account, mostly founded on the fact that UK trusts and companies are the worldwide number one vehicle for tax evasion (Channel Islands trusts, British Virgin Islands corporations,...).

One question that has to be asked is: what has the UK ever done for the EU?

I have no answer to that one.

And you are asking if the EU will be stronger without the UK - but was it stronger WITH the UK in the first place? Did the UK matter at all?

So... if the UK leaves the EU, there won't be much loss, the EU gets rid of a big naysayer and the EU gains coherence.

Due to the UK's past attitude towards the EU (i.e. no investment in the EU), there will be no financial loss.

I assume that the UK will continue cooperations if they are profitable (Airbus) - in best British manner.

Thanks for your argument, however you are totally wrong. Go and make certain of your facts and try again.

Hi, as I said, I don't have enough information, but I would like to get my facts straight.

Can you please help me by pointing out the wrong facts and direct me to a source where I can find the truth?

[theblether]

So your position is that the EU would be stronger without the UK?

I don't have enough information about that to be certain, but it certainly can be argued.

The iron Lady (Thatcher) negociated everything EU-related to be at UK's financial advantage or zero.

The biggest EU project at that time was agriculture, so Thatcher negociated exceptions for the UK that made sure the UK would recoup the money spent for the EU budget through the agricultural aid paid to UK farmers - this was an official negociation point.

UK also participated in other EU-projects such as Coal&Steel production, Airbus, Eurocopter, etc.

Everything had of course to benefit the UK or at least not to cost them anything.

On the other big EU convergence projects like Schengen and the EURO, UK failed to participate.

Also, UK's behavior in the past years was that of a lapdog to the US, being a bit as the voice (and eyes and ears, LOL) of the Us in the EU, and failing to enforce data protection.

So, my impression of the UK in the EU is that the UK picked the chocolate chips off the cookie and left the rest, always asking "what is in it for me" and refusing to contribute or compromise.

The current attitude of the UK is understandable if the importance of London's financial business is taken into account, mostly founded on the fact that UK trusts and companies are the worldwide number one vehicle for tax evasion (Channel Islands trusts, British Virgin Islands corporations,...).

One question that has to be asked is: what has the UK ever done for the EU?

I have no answer to that one.

And you are asking if the EU will be stronger without the UK - but was it stronger WITH the UK in the first place? Did the UK matter at all?

So... if the UK leaves the EU, there won't be much loss, the EU gets rid of a big naysayer and the EU gains coherence.

Due to the UK's past attitude towards the EU (i.e. no investment in the EU), there will be no financial loss.

I assume that the UK will continue cooperations if they are profitable (Airbus) - in best British manner.

Thanks for your argument, however you are totally wrong. Go and make certain of your facts and try again.

Hi, as I said, I don't have enough information, but I would like to get my facts straight.

Can you please help me by pointing out the wrong facts and direct me to a source where I can find the truth?

OK, let's address the worst contention that you made. That being that we don't invest in Europe. Have a look at this chart........

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/6424283/question-how-much-do-we-contribute-towards-the-eu-budget.thtml

You could go mad trying to work out the contributions.........we send some money and we get some back for our poorer areas. What happens then is that there are big signs put up at road and building projects in the UK saying " Funded by the EU ".

What they should really say is........." Funded by the EU using tax money that you sent to us and now we are sending it back to you and taking the credit for improving your poorer areas "

If you look at the chart, only Germany is a bigger net contributor to the EU than the UK.

[theblether]

So your position is that the EU would be stronger without the UK?

I don't have enough information about that to be certain, but it certainly can be argued.

The iron Lady (Thatcher) negociated everything EU-related to be at UK's financial advantage or zero.

The biggest EU project at that time was agriculture, so Thatcher negociated exceptions for the UK that made sure the UK would recoup the money spent for the EU budget through the agricultural aid paid to UK farmers - this was an official negociation point.

UK also participated in other EU-projects such as Coal&Steel production, Airbus, Eurocopter, etc.

Everything had of course to benefit the UK or at least not to cost them anything.

On the other big EU convergence projects like Schengen and the EURO, UK failed to participate.

Also, UK's behavior in the past years was that of a lapdog to the US, being a bit as the voice (and eyes and ears, LOL) of the Us in the EU, and failing to enforce data protection.

So, my impression of the UK in the EU is that the UK picked the chocolate chips off the cookie and left the rest, always asking "what is in it for me" and refusing to contribute or compromise.

The current attitude of the UK is understandable if the importance of London's financial business is taken into account, mostly founded on the fact that UK trusts and companies are the worldwide number one vehicle for tax evasion (Channel Islands trusts, British Virgin Islands corporations,...).

One question that has to be asked is: what has the UK ever done for the EU?

I have no answer to that one.

And you are asking if the EU will be stronger without the UK - but was it stronger WITH the UK in the first place? Did the UK matter at all?

So... if the UK leaves the EU, there won't be much loss, the EU gets rid of a big naysayer and the EU gains coherence.

Due to the UK's past attitude towards the EU (i.e. no investment in the EU), there will be no financial loss.

I assume that the UK will continue cooperations if they are profitable (Airbus) - in best British manner.

Thanks for your argument, however you are totally wrong. Go and make certain of your facts and try again.

Hi, as I said, I don't have enough information, but I would like to get my facts straight.

Can you please help me by pointing out the wrong facts and direct me to a source where I can find the truth?

Next one......you said

On the other big EU convergence projects like Schengen and the EURO, UK failed to participate.

This whole thread is about the Euro..............the Euro was flawed from the start and that is why we and many other countries didn't join. We Brits were told that we would regret not joining, we were told that by now we would have our noses pressed against the glass begging to get in........

[theblether]

How many more net debtors than creditors does the EU need? Even one of the gurus behind the Euro's creation said it was flawed. I was thinking that at it's creation. I didn't even now of the Greek retirement age then. If the Euro had been based on the Northern European countries (excluding France) it may have had a chance.

I agree with you.

If the City doesn't have access to the European business. If all the Mom & Pop businesses are cut from the European market.

The UK is dead

In your dreams Jurgeng.................in your nightmares though the City of London financial markets will pull the financing from the Eurozone countries.............one of us is closer to the truth, who do you think it is?

[manarak]

OK, let's address the worst contention that you made. That being that we don't invest in Europe. Have a look at this chart........

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/6424283/question-how-much-do-we-contribute-towards-the-eu-budget.thtml

You could go mad trying to work out the contributions.........we send some money and we get some back for our poorer areas. What happens then is that there are big signs put up at road and building projects in the UK saying " Funded by the EU ".

What they should really say is........." Funded by the EU using tax money that you sent to us and now we are sending it back to you and taking the credit for improving your poorer areas "

If you look at the chart, only Germany is a bigger net contributor to the EU than the UK.

Hello, yes you are right, I found other documents detailing the net contributions.

[theblether]

OK, let's address the worst contention that you made. That being that we don't invest in Europe. Have a look at this chart........

http://www.spectator...eu-budget.thtml

You could go mad trying to work out the contributions.........we send some money and we get some back for our poorer areas. What happens then is that there are big signs put up at road and building projects in the UK saying " Funded by the EU ".

What they should really say is........." Funded by the EU using tax money that you sent to us and now we are sending it back to you and taking the credit for improving your poorer areas "

If you look at the chart, only Germany is a bigger net contributor to the EU than the UK.

Hello, yes you are right, I found other documents detailing the net contributions.

OK, if you dig deeper you will find that the UK has also supplied billions of Euros to help bail out Greece and Ireland in particular............off the top of my head, somewhere around the 16-20 billion Euro figure??? I haven't checked, I'm just going by memory........is that the actions of a country that doesn't care and doesn't contribute? Of course it's not.

[manarak]

OK, let's address the worst contention that you made. That being that we don't invest in Europe. Have a look at this chart........

http://www.spectator...eu-budget.thtml

You could go mad trying to work out the contributions.........we send some money and we get some back for our poorer areas. What happens then is that there are big signs put up at road and building projects in the UK saying " Funded by the EU ".

What they should really say is........." Funded by the EU using tax money that you sent to us and now we are sending it back to you and taking the credit for improving your poorer areas "

If you look at the chart, only Germany is a bigger net contributor to the EU than the UK.

Hello, yes you are right, I found other documents detailing the net contributions.

OK, if you dig deeper you will find that the UK has also supplied billions of Euros to help bail out Greece and Ireland in particular............off the top of my head, somewhere around the 16-20 billion Euro figure??? I haven't checked, I'm just going by memory........is that the actions of a country that doesn't care and doesn't contribute? Of course it's not.

Yes, I agree.

UK's attitude has always been a bit that of an outsider, but for a reason, as it seems.

I was a big fan of EU myself in the the 80ies.

In the 90ies I became sceptical and heartbroken about how the EU developed and after 2000 I became hostile to the EU - so I couldn't care less if it disappeared.

[JimsKnight]

The fact is that already there are European country's doing very well thank you WITHOUT even being in the god-forsaken EU.

Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are doing just fine.

Everyone said Iceland was going to sink for kicking out the bankers.

Well guess what it's doing fine. It has it's own currency, not in the central bank and goes at it alone.

Norway has trade agreements and that's it.

UK has mercentile forces in the city of london wheeling and dealing like men possessed.

The people want out of the EU but Cameron dances to the money makers tune and so he's pro-EU, but only on their terms (hence him vetoing the agreement).

I can't wait for the EU to collapse, it's long overdue and the sooner the better.

Prolonging it's demise will just extend the pain...

[theblether]

Here is a quote from Le Monde, one of the premier publications in France.

"Brits are not part of this euro crisis. And they have no responsibility for the failure of its institutions to resolve this sovereign debt crisis"

[tonika]

I agree in principle with these comments, regarding the media and how it can have an effect on how people vote. But there are other factors, eg Lack of Understanding, Ignorance . I'll give examples, I was having a drink one evening in a Social Cub, just before a General Election. I overheard a conversation between two woman. One said to the other, ' I've had enough of these Tories, I'll be voting Conservative this time '. A work colleague couldn't tell me who the current Prime Minister was. ' I'm not into that sh--t ' , I asked, did you never watch any political programme ?, ' Never , just Footbal, Coronation Street, X-factor and Come Dancing ', was his reply. These are not isolated cases. Is it any wonder the UK is in such a state ?.

Quoting Pedzie.

It baffles me as well. But the 30% of UK citizens who actually bother to vote still do so for the same parties in the vain hope that things will eventually improve. Things in the UK will have to get a lot worse before voters seek an alternative means of governance. Countries in the EU such as Denmark are beginning to see the light and are voting accordingly but the people of the UK will vote how their media tells them to. The UK media is owned by global organisations.

[RAZZELL]

I love this thread

RAZZ

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/14/eu-treaty-cameron-sarkozy-row

Edited December 14, 2011 by RAZZELL

[JurgenG]

The fact is that already there are European country's doing very well thank you WITHOUT even being in the god-forsaken EU.

Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are doing just fine.

Everyone said Iceland was going to sink for kicking out the bankers.

Well guess what it's doing fine. It has it's own currency, not in the central bank and goes at it alone.

Norway has trade agreements and that's it.

UK has mercentile forces in the city of london wheeling and dealing like men possessed.

The people want out of the EU but Cameron dances to the money makers tune and so he's pro-EU, but only on their terms (hence him vetoing the agreement).

I can't wait for the EU to collapse, it's long overdue and the sooner the better.

Prolonging it's demise will just extend the pain...

Switzerland is out of the Euro and doing fine ? Great, why don't the UK do the same ?

Switzerland don't spend its time bad mouthing the EU. They live their separate life and everybody is happy. Why can't the UK do the same ?

Why do you want the EU to collapse ? What pleasure will you get out of that ?

Misery loves company, it's the only explanation I can find.

[Mosha]

Just now on BBC World News, Angela Merkel said "I very much regret that Great Britain chose to not join the Euro 20 years ago". Well guess what? The majority of Brits do not share that sentiment. IMHO the people paying the piper in the EU, should be the ones calling the tune depending on how much the pay in, and no more net debtors should be admitted to the EU.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Mosha

[Naam]

The fact is that already there are European country's doing very well thank you WITHOUT even being in the god-forsaken EU.

Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are doing just fine.

Everyone said Iceland was going to sink for kicking out the bankers.

Well guess what it's doing fine. It has it's own currency, not in the central bank and goes at it alone.

Norway has trade agreements and that's it.

UK has mercentile forces in the city of london wheeling and dealing like men possessed.

The people want out of the EU but Cameron dances to the money makers tune and so he's pro-EU, but only on their terms (hence him vetoing the agreement).

I can't wait for the EU to collapse, it's long overdue and the sooner the better.

Prolonging it's demise will just extend the pain...

Switzerland is out of the Euro and doing fine ? Great, why don't the UK do the same ?

Switzerland don't spend its time bad mouthing the EU. They live their separate life and everybody is happy. Why can't the UK do the same ?

Why do you want the EU to collapse ? What pleasure will you get out of that ?

Misery loves company, it's the only explanation I can find.

a comparison using Norway, Switzerland and Iceland is way off the mark.

Norway has oil, runs a budget surplus, is a net creditor and its population is 60% of London's population.

Switzerland has slightly less inhabitants than London, has a highly developed high-tech industry and is economically aligned with the European Union.

Iceland is doing fine? total inhabitants less than one of London's big suburbs. default on government debt, cheating investors, rampant inflation, currency devalued 50% (FIFTY percent!) since 2007, public debt ratio a wee bit better than Greece.

[theblether]

The fact is that already there are European country's doing very well thank you WITHOUT even being in the god-forsaken EU.

Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are doing just fine.

Everyone said Iceland was going to sink for kicking out the bankers.

Well guess what it's doing fine. It has it's own currency, not in the central bank and goes at it alone.

Norway has trade agreements and that's it.

UK has mercentile forces in the city of london wheeling and dealing like men possessed.

The people want out of the EU but Cameron dances to the money makers tune and so he's pro-EU, but only on their terms (hence him vetoing the agreement).

I can't wait for the EU to collapse, it's long overdue and the sooner the better.

Prolonging it's demise will just extend the pain...

Switzerland is out of the Euro and doing fine ? Great, why don't the UK do the same ?

Switzerland don't spend its time bad mouthing the EU. They live their separate life and everybody is happy. Why can't the UK do the same ?

Why do you want the EU to collapse ? What pleasure will you get out of that ?

Misery loves company, it's the only explanation I can find.

Well according to you , we in the UK are isolated. Your in the company of 25 other nations.......so I would suggest it is your mob that loves misery.

By the way you better have a word with Angela Merkel, according to her the UK is a very important member of the EU, now we can't be having the German Chancellor disagreeing with you, can we Jurgeng???

Edited December 15, 2011 by theblether

[mccw]

Looks like Hungary and cezch republic are backing out- next will be sweden. I suggest several countries will negotiate a trade based relationship with the eurozone while those remaining become a german controlled block. Obviously the Germans aren't too bothered having weaker members of the euro because it will keep their exports much more competitive than they would b using the DM. Problem is they don't really want to pay anything to maintain it either; at some point theyneed to choose. Politically very difficult to convince the people it "might" actualy in their interests to prop up the med. Every route is painful. From a British point of view makes alot more sense to get out completely; more and more money will be ask of us for nothing in return- (yes you expect to get something in return when giving away billions and billions £! especially when such hard times/ budget contraints exist anyway.

[mccw]

I mean over the next couple of years, not immediately, a goup of nations unwilling to seed soveriegnty will devop as the exstention of integration mififesting becomes more and more unpalatable; this group would maintain free trade area and free (mostly) movement of people's with EU, while is eurozone + or minus a couple will go all the way to german dominated integration. Britian can be seen as leading the way in this group of free independent EU nations! We should be confident of our own Path and abilities; not cowed as some naughty eu outcaste. Free of the eu beurocracy/ rules and some create financial/ tax incentives maybe we could become a manufacturing hub to rival Germany and less of a risk for investment as no euro zone debt debacle chains around the neck

[mccw]

Oh yes the german rock will begin to shake as this roles forward and full implications are realised. German bond rates are already more than the UKs; and it's early days still!

[Naam]

Oh yes the german rock will begin to shake as this roles forward and full implications are realised. German bond rates are already more than the UKs; and it's early days still!

reading glasses broken?

German Government Bonds COUPON MATURITY PRICE/YIELD PRICE/YIELD CHANGE TIME

3-Month 0.000 03/14/2012 100.03 / 0.21 0.040 / -0.155 11:57

6-Month 0.000 06/13/2012 100.02 / 0.08 -0.010 / 0.021 12:00

1-Year 1.000 12/14/2012 100.96 / 0.03 0.005 / -0.008 11:59

2-Year 0.250 12/13/2013 100.00 / 0.26 0.040 / -0.020 11:59

3-Year 2.500 10/10/2014 105.89 / 0.39 0.010 / -0.005 11:59

4-Year 1.750 10/09/2015 104.25 / 0.62 -0.020 / 0.004 11:59

5-Year 1.250 10/14/2016 101.77 / 0.88 -0.085 / 0.018 11:59

6-Year 4.000 01/04/2018 116.32 / 1.19 -0.120 / 0.018 11:59

7-Year 3.750 01/04/2019 115.24 / 1.46 -0.165 / 0.022 11:59

8-Year 3.250 01/04/2020 112.04 / 1.64 -0.190 / 0.023 11:59

9-Year 2.500 01/04/2021 105.94 / 1.79 -0.210 / 0.024 11:59

10-Year 2.000 01/04/2022 100.52 / 1.95 -0.225 / 0.025 11:59

15-Year 6.500 07/04/2027 151.97 / 2.45 -0.680 / 0.040 11:59

20-Year 5.500 01/04/2031 143.79 / 2.57 -0.585 / 0.031 11:59

30-Year 3.250 07/04/2042 117.74 / 2.43 -1.195 / 0.050 11:59

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/germany/

U.K. Government Bonds COUPON MATURITY PRICE/YIELD PRICE/YIELD CHANGE TIME

3-Month 0.000 03/12/2012 99.92 / 0.36 0.003 / -0.007 16:00

6-Month 0.000 06/11/2012 99.84 / 0.35 0.009 / -0.016 16:00

1-Year 4.500 03/07/2013 105.07 / 0.36 -0.020 / 0.007 11:59

2-Year 2.250 03/07/2014 104.19 / 0.36 -0.055 / 0.022 11:59

3-Year 2.750 01/22/2015 106.78 / 0.54 -0.040 / 0.011 11:59

4-Year 2.000 01/22/2016 104.72 / 0.83 -0.120 / 0.028 12:00

5-Year 1.750 01/22/2017 103.15 / 1.12 -0.240 / 0.047 11:59

6-Year 5.000 03/07/2018 121.74 / 1.35 -0.290 / 0.042 11:59

7-Year 4.500 03/07/2019 119.94 / 1.57 -0.380 / 0.049 11:59

8-Year 4.750 03/07/2020 122.74 / 1.77 -0.145 / 0.016 11:59

9-Year 3.750 09/07/2020 114.89 / 1.89 -0.145 / 0.016 11:59

10-Year 3.750 09/07/2021 114.44 / 2.10 -0.085 / 0.009 11:59

15-Year 4.250 12/07/2027 120.19 / 2.69 -0.045 / 0.003 11:59

20-Year 4.250 06/07/2032 119.79 / 2.96 0.080 / -0.005 11:59

30-Year 4.250 12/07/2040 120.64 / 3.16 0.000 / 0.000 11:59

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/uk/

[mccw]

Why is a uk gov 5 year bond returning 1.75 while the six year is at 5.0?

Edited December 16, 2011 by mccw