Chalerm Slams Abhisit Govt For Pardon Plea Delay

[tlansford]

May I take the liberty to slightly deviate from the topic:

Can anyone tell me (Don't get me wrong, I am not challenging here, just curious!) what stops the current government from

prosecuting everyone related to the 2006 coup (which is clearly treason) and invalidate everything that happened under

the military regime until the following election? Surely a court has to decide on the latter, but they even have the mandate to

make some new laws - albeit retrospectively - if needed!

Okay, one answer is that this may not be conducive towards "reconciliation". Anything other than that?

Again, I am not trying to pick a fight here, so serious replies only please!

The new 2007 constitution absolves those involved in the coup of any wrong doing. That article of the constitution would need to be modified before any action could be taken. I believe that is article 301 or something similar. Google knows

[jdinasia]

Grant the pardon, with the stimpulation absolutely no politics for life, if he breaks this royal mandate he will go to jail for life and forfit his fortune to the state. He would last about 2 days before he opened his mouth.

According to my understanding of the law in practice, the petition is useless .... until Thaksin first returns to Thailand and goes to jail, and then admits his guilt and shows remorse. A pardon would apply only to one crime and by putting himself inside the jurisdiction of the courts the outstanding cases against Thaksin could then move forward. As things stand Thaksin cannot ever return to politics as he has been convicted and sentenced to jail.

[fvw53]

Is this a Thai version of "Wayang Kulit", the famous Indonesian shadow puppet theater?

[thaikahuna]

Grant the pardon, with the stimpulation absolutely no politics for life, if he breaks this royal mandate he will go to jail for life and forfit his fortune to the state. He would last about 2 days before he opened his mouth.

Surely you jest? He can't keep his mouth shut! However jail for life and forfeiture of all assets would be a good start.

As far as the comments of the previous administration "shelving" the petition, tell them to go pound sand. Its politics, get use to it. Additionally, it would not be a wise person to submit ANY petition to ANY one without verifying the validity of the affixed signatures. It is the prudent thing to do.

[Crushdepth]

Can anyone tell me (Don't get me wrong, I am not challenging here, just curious!) what stops the current government from

prosecuting everyone related to the 2006 coup...<snip>

The risk of another coup, basically.

[rixalex]

I'm a boring old bastard, but the rule of law and judicial process must prevail, particularly in this case. Thaksin's party and family are back in power, there is no better time for him to return and face the music.

Lest we forget though, it was also his party in power when the courts convicted him. Goes to show that even these circumstances don't guarantee you the verdict you desire, or indeed the verdict you attempt to buy.

Thaksin will only come back and face the music, when he is 100% certain of being able to "conduct the orchestra".

[animatic]

More political grandstanding and mouth wagging from one of the bigger mouths in the land. Like Jatuporn but in much better clothes, and the ability to more or less think logically some of the time.

Edited September 8, 2011 by animatic

[jdinasia]

I'm a boring old bastard, but the rule of law and judicial process must prevail, particularly in this case. Thaksin's party and family are back in power, there is no better time for him to return and face the music.

Lest we forget though, it was also his party in power when the courts convicted him. Goes to show that even these circumstances don't guarantee you the verdict you desire, or indeed the verdict you attempt to buy.

Thaksin will only come back and face the music, when he is 100% certain of being able to "conduct the orchestra".

There is much out there about the courts and some of the verdicts etc .... but this one regarding the assets seizure appeal is worth noting again. http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2010/08/14/unanimous-rejection-of-thaksin-asset-seizure-appeal/

This week, in a one-hour plenary meeting, 119 of 142 judges voted 103:4 in favour of rejecting an appeal of the February decision put forth by Thaksin’s legal representatives. The appeals panel stated that no new evidence, which would affect the prior decision, had been presented by Mr. Shinawatra’s legal council. Twelve judges present at the appeal abstained from voting.

This was not the case that landed Thaksin the jail term (this was a civil case) BUT it does open Thaksin up for several more criminal prosecutions.

[animatic]

Can anyone tell me (Don't get me wrong, I am not challenging here, just curious!) what stops the current government from

prosecuting everyone related to the 2006 coup...<snip>

The risk of another coup, basically.

And the main leader is now an MP and has double immunity...

Both sitting MP and Constitutional on which the nation voted.

Remove his, then remove the reds too.

But they have been charged already and he is not,

though some want to charge him very badly.

Oh wait! there will be no revenge!!

And who hear REALLY believed that porky?

[Orac]

Did Police Captain Chalerm's legal brief cite ANY previous occasion where a fugitive was granted a Royal Pardon?

Or ANY situation when a Royal Pardon was granted to anyone who had not served so much as even a day of their sentence?

Or ANY convict who received a Royal Pardon who had never admitted guilt?

I got an answer to my second question today from PTP coalition partner, Chartthaipattana Party-list MP Sanan Kachornprasart. The 78 year-old, long-time politician said that he had never seen it occur before.

It's also interesting that he further elaborated that this pardon maneuver, by their coalition partner party, is likely to cause conflict.

Veera's claim certainly needs to be substantiated. I still think the legislative amnesty is the route that will be tried. BJT an opposition party have said they will introduce one for all charged since 2007 but say they wont include Thaksin. That is going to get the double standard thing going again but create even more precedents on top of all the coup makers who use the route to never face criminal charge

Veera's juvenile "I've got a secret, but I'm not telling" game is for children. Totally dis-believable until he names and shames.

Probably best to separate the amnesty issue out of this thread, but I will say it is going to be muddled and haggled about for who to include (Thaksin, military, Reds, yellows, etc.) and for what. I envision multiple cries of double standards from multiple sources along every step, although time will be critical with the wedding attendance coming nearer.

,

It could be that Veera'a claim is correct as the questions to Chalerm refer to sentences, convicts and fugitives whereas Veera has only said royal pardons where no jail term has been served. Two cases that would fit this are General Suchinda in 1992 and General Manoonkrit in the eighties.

[plumeria]

This guy has powerful magic and could even make an entire nightclub full of people NOT see a cop shot dead in front of them so never underestimate him. When he talks it's smart to listen and try to decipher what is really being said and what is really going on. I hope some smart TVF members will cut through the bull and explain it to us.

[BlackJack]

i thought you had to be a good boy to get a pardon

or make some merit or do something good for the people

maybe if they can make a list of the good things done then they would stand a better chance of getting the pardon

Edited September 8, 2011 by webfact
Admin quote removed

[webfact]

Attorney General's Spokesperson Appointed to Thaksin Amnesty Panel

The spokesperson of the Attorney-General's Office says he has not been informed that he has been appointed to sit on the probe committee to study the royal pardon petition for former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra but says he is prepared to carry out the duty.

Spokesperson to the Attorney-General's Office Thanapit Moonpruek said he did not know that he has been appointed by Justice Minister Pracha Promnok to sit on the committee to study the royal pardon petition for former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

He commented that the justice minister probably wants to see people from various backgrounds deliberate the issue.

In any case, he said that he is ready to carry out the duty but he expressed concern as the issue is both crucial and sensitive.

The commission will be tasked with gathering information and details on the royal pardon petition.

Its members will oversee the whole petition procedure and make recommendations to related officials on the matter.

-- Tan Network 2011-09-08

[Crushdepth]

Does the government normally form a special committee to study each pardon petition?

[Orac]

Does the government normally form a special committee to study each pardon petition?

How many pardons have been requested for a former prime minister whose sibling is the current PM???

The very nature of the case and characters involved pretty much ensures that the 'normal' rules don't apply.

[Thai at Heart]

I just can't believe that they will rip up the rules to accommodate one man.

What about all the other poor buggars actually sitting in jail and who have to wait their turn to get a pardon?

[jdinasia]

Attorney General's Spokesperson Appointed to Thaksin Amnesty Panel

The spokesperson of the Attorney-General's Office says he has not been informed that he has been appointed to sit on the probe committee to study the royal pardon petition for former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra but says he is prepared to carry out the duty.

Spokesperson to the Attorney-General's Office Thanapit Moonpruek said he did not know that he has been appointed by Justice Minister Pracha Promnok to sit on the committee to study the royal pardon petition for former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

He commented that the justice minister probably wants to see people from various backgrounds deliberate the issue.

In any case, he said that he is ready to carry out the duty but he expressed concern as the issue is both crucial and sensitive.

The commission will be tasked with gathering information and details on the royal pardon petition.

Its members will oversee the whole petition procedure and make recommendations to related officials on the matter.

-- Tan Network 2011-09-08

but the government is not doing anything that would be aimed at helping just one man ...... didn't PTP promise that?

[Thai at Heart]

Attorney General's Spokesperson Appointed to Thaksin Amnesty Panel

The spokesperson of the Attorney-General's Office says he has not been informed that he has been appointed to sit on the probe committee to study the royal pardon petition for former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra but says he is prepared to carry out the duty.

Spokesperson to the Attorney-General's Office Thanapit Moonpruek said he did not know that he has been appointed by Justice Minister Pracha Promnok to sit on the committee to study the royal pardon petition for former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

He commented that the justice minister probably wants to see people from various backgrounds deliberate the issue.

In any case, he said that he is ready to carry out the duty but he expressed concern as the issue is both crucial and sensitive.

The commission will be tasked with gathering information and details on the royal pardon petition.

Its members will oversee the whole petition procedure and make recommendations to related officials on the matter.

-- Tan Network 2011-09-08

but the government is not doing anything that would be aimed at helping just one man ...... didn't PTP promise that?

Beyond that, what does the "Attorney General's Spokesperson" have to do with anything, than being a spokesperson?

[Crushdepth]

Does the government normally form a special committee to study each pardon petition?

How many pardons have been requested for a former prime minister whose sibling is the current PM???

The very nature of the case and characters involved pretty much ensures that the 'normal' rules don't apply.

Well I put it to you that the normal rules should apply!! I'm not into this "special treatment for the Elite" business.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Crushdepth

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Grant the pardon, with the stipulation absolutely no politics for life, if he breaks this royal mandate he will go to jail for life and forfit his fortune to the state. He would last about 2 days before he opened his mouth.

Would that be the same like him being a previously banned politician and thus being legally unable to participate in the recent national election campaign, which of course he didn't???

[Buchholz]

I got an answer to my second question today from PTP coalition partner, Chartthaipattana Party-list MP Sanan Kachornprasart. The 78 year-old, long-time politician said that he had never seen it occur before.

It's also interesting that he further elaborated that this pardon maneuver, by their coalition partner party, is likely to cause conflict.

Veera's juvenile "I've got a secret, but I'm not telling" game is for children. Totally dis-believable until he names and shames.

Probably best to separate the amnesty issue out of this thread, but I will say it is going to be muddled and haggled about for who to include (Thaksin, military, Reds, yellows, etc.) and for what. I envision multiple cries of double standards from multiple sources along every step, although time will be critical with the wedding attendance coming nearer.

It could be that Veera'a claim is correct as the questions to Chalerm refer to sentences, convicts and fugitives whereas Veera has only said royal pardons where no jail term has been served. Two cases that would fit this are General Suchinda in 1992 and General Manoonkrit in the eighties.

Seems odd that the Sanan would not have thought of them, but then again, that could be because he was thinking of a direct precedence whereas Veera is talking in terms of a situation that is not completely analogous.

Do you have any reference for that as when I looked about, I couldn't find anything about Suchinda avoiding prison because of a conviction that was over-ridden by a Royal Pardon.

Interestingly enough, while looking about, I did come across a BP article wherein Thaksin's friend, Suchinda, voiced his opinion on this thread's matter during his 76th birthday party 2 years ago. He strongly opposed this Red Shirt petition for a Royal Pardon to proceed for Thaksin.

While I did find mention of their receiving Royal Pardons, I didn't find any information that it occurred after they were convicted of criminal charges with a guilty verdict by a court of law, whether it be the Supreme Court, as in the case with Thaksin, or any other court.

.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Buchholz

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

According to my understanding of the law in practice, the petition is useless .... until Thaksin first returns to Thailand and goes to jail, and then admits his guilt and shows remorse. A pardon would apply only to one crime and by putting himself inside the jurisdiction of the courts the outstanding cases against Thaksin could then move forward. As things stand Thaksin cannot ever return to politics as he has been convicted and sentenced to jail.

JD, if you were wearing your red shirt for the day, are you saying they don't have any way to maneuver a blanket amnesty for him, whether by royal pardon or otherwise???

Does the Parliament have the ability to pass a law retroactively granting him a blanket amnesty for everything, what he's already been convicted of and the various things pending?

BTW, everything I've ever read about the process for royal pardons has cited the prerequisites you mention above... the person actually serving some time in jail, admitting guilt and showing remorse. I've never heard of any pardon that didn't include those things.

[rixalex]

I just can't believe that they will rip up the rules to accommodate one man.

What about all the other poor buggars actually sitting in jail and who have to wait their turn to get a pardon?

Appreciate you were being tongue in cheek with your "poor buggars" comment, but let's not forget, these "poor buggars" are people who knowingly broke the law. For me, the entire concept of giving pardons is wrong. Until the day that it is possible to go back and undo the wrong committed upon the victim, there should be no way of going back and undoing the punishment handed down to the criminal, which is essentially what pardons are all about.

The reasoning is weak, and of course, it is ten times weaker, when the criminal in question has no remorse and refuses to accept any punishment whatsoever. For people like this, talk shouldn't be of cutting punishment, rather it should be of doubling it. Doubling it again actually, because this is what should have happened after the bribe attempt.

[jdinasia]

According to my understanding of the law in practice, the petition is useless .... until Thaksin first returns to Thailand and goes to jail, and then admits his guilt and shows remorse. A pardon would apply only to one crime and by putting himself inside the jurisdiction of the courts the outstanding cases against Thaksin could then move forward. As things stand Thaksin cannot ever return to politics as he has been convicted and sentenced to jail.

JD, if you were wearing your red shirt for the day, are you saying they don't have any way to maneuver a blanket amnesty for him, whether by royal pardon or otherwise???

Does the Parliament have the ability to pass a law retroactively granting him a blanket amnesty for everything, what he's already been convicted of and the various things pending?

BTW, everything I've ever read about the process for royal pardons has cited the prerequisites you mention above... the person actually serving some time in jail, admitting guilt and showing remorse. I've never heard of any pardon that didn't include those things.

He might be able to get a blanket amnesty (along with others of every hue including the yellows that don't want it, and other groups such as the military that don't need it) ..... but not as a pardon under the way things have been done in Thailand,

The question would still be .... those criminal acts Thaksin did PRIOR to the coup. Including several charges that would carry jail sentences if he is convicted on them. If they set the coup as the date then his actions while PM undertaken to benefit a company he still had practical control of would not be covered.

Edited September 8, 2011 by jdinasia

[Thai at Heart]

I just can't believe that they will rip up the rules to accommodate one man.

What about all the other poor buggars actually sitting in jail and who have to wait their turn to get a pardon?

Appreciate you were being tongue in cheek with your "poor buggars" comment, but let's not forget, these "poor buggars" are people who knowingly broke the law. For me, the entire concept of giving pardons is wrong. Until the day that it is possible to go back and undo the wrong committed upon the victim, there should be no way of going back and undoing the punishment handed down to the criminal, which is essentially what pardons are all about.

The reasoning is weak, and of course, it is ten times weaker, when the criminal in question has no remorse and refuses to accept any punishment whatsoever. For people like this, talk shouldn't be of cutting punishment, rather it should be of doubling it. Doubling it again actually, because this is what should have happened after the bribe attempt.

Well it is all relative, and there are a share of innocent people who get convicted incorrectly in Thailand just like anywhere else in the world. I agree, the concept of pardons is all very weird to me in the 21st century, but there we have it. But in all honesty, the system is there, people go to jail, and they have the chance to apply for a pardon from inside their jail cell.

I cannot believe that the system will allow itself to be gerrymandered 100% just for one man. There are some weird and wonderful judgements in Thailand where the punishment doesn't appear to fit the crime, so applying for a pardon when you have nicked 100k baht but been put away for 30 years, is some way to bring some measure of leniency to the system (not an exact quote but I remember reading a couple who had embezzled money from a petrol station getting something akin to this in the last few years).

So how legally do you reconcile re-writing the entire rule book just for one man. I know there isn't precedent law in Thailand, but wouldn't going about pursuing this case open up an enormous can of worms for the legal system in the future?

[jdinasia]

Appreciate you were being tongue in cheek with your "poor buggars" comment, but let's not forget, these "poor buggars" are people who knowingly broke the law. For me, the entire concept of giving pardons is wrong. Until the day that it is possible to go back and undo the wrong committed upon the victim, there should be no way of going back and undoing the punishment handed down to the criminal, which is essentially what pardons are all about.

The reasoning is weak, and of course, it is ten times weaker, when the criminal in question has no remorse and refuses to accept any punishment whatsoever. For people like this, talk shouldn't be of cutting punishment, rather it should be of doubling it. Doubling it again actually, because this is what should have happened after the bribe attempt.

Ib case people don't remember ---- Bakery Scandal ----- 2008?

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/6437022.html

Thailand's Supreme Court on Wednesday handed down a six-month jail term to each of three lawyers working for ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra over a charge of attempted bribery in which a lawyer handed a pastry box filled with cash to a court official on June 10.

[webfact]

Democrat MP Sees Thaksin's Amnesty Unviable

A senior Democrat MP suggests the petition seeking royal pardon for the ousted premier should be deliberated after he serves part of his sentence.

Democrat MP Thavorn Senniem said the law requires a convict seeking royal pardon to serve his term first and the request must be submitted via prison officials.

Thavorn suggested ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra has not set foot in prison yet, so the move to seek royal pardon for him now is legally irrelevant.

He added the signatures collected for the petition have no legal effect.

He said he has questioned the Justice Ministry over the clarity of its planned formation of a panel to take charge of reviewing the petition.

He stated the ministry will also seek the viewpoints of those who oppose the royal pardon for Thaksin, apart from Rak Santi Party leader Purachai Piemsomboon.

Thavorn said the proposed members for the panel are acceptable.

On his party's role as the main opposition party, Thavorn maintained its examination of the government's work will be carried out constructively and it will keep a close watch on pressing problems, such as inundation in the provinces and the constant increase in goods prices.

Thavorn faulted the government for its lack of serious attention on the efforts to rebuild peace in the violence-ridden southern border region.

Meanwhile, Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobumrung said the petition seeking royal pardon for Thaksin is not the government's urgent policy.

He added since the issue was being examined by the previous administration, the new government has to follow up on it.

-- Tan Network 2011-09-08

[rixalex]

I cannot believe that the system will allow itself to be gerrymandered 100% just for one man. There are some weird and wonderful judgements in Thailand where the punishment doesn't appear to fit the crime, so applying for a pardon when you have nicked 100k baht but been put away for 30 years, is some way to bring some measure of leniency to the system (not an exact quote but I remember reading a couple who had embezzled money from a petrol station getting something akin to this in the last few years).

Off topic, but are you sure you are not thinking of the toll booth embezzlement case?

[Buchholz]

Appreciate you were being tongue in cheek with your "poor buggars" comment, but let's not forget, these "poor buggars" are people who knowingly broke the law. For me, the entire concept of giving pardons is wrong. Until the day that it is possible to go back and undo the wrong committed upon the victim, there should be no way of going back and undoing the punishment handed down to the criminal, which is essentially what pardons are all about.

The reasoning is weak, and of course, it is ten times weaker, when the criminal in question has no remorse and refuses to accept any punishment whatsoever. For people like this, talk shouldn't be of cutting punishment, rather it should be of doubling it. Doubling it again actually, because this is what should have happened after the bribe attempt.

Ib case people don't remember ---- Bakery Scandal ----- 2008?

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/6437022.html

Thailand's Supreme Court on Wednesday handed down a six-month jail term to each of three lawyers working for ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra over a charge of attempted bribery in which a lawyer handed a pastry box filled with cash to a court official on June 10.

In never-ending irony, he almost became a Pheu Thai Party-list MP in the last election.

I'm interested in where Thaksin "Pastry Gate" lawyer, Pichit, lands on the Pheu Thai Party-list.

Meanwhile, Pichit Chuenban, Thaksin's personal lawyer, is on the list of party-list MP candidates. Pichit was sentenced to six months in prison for contempt of court after allegedly handing out a bag of cookies stuffed with Bt2 million to court officials.

[Insight]

On the other side right now:

"I believe Pol Lt-Col Thaksin, who graduated from the police academy and finished a Phd in criminology, knows all the procedures," Mr Purachai added.