Hotel Scams At Christmas And New Year

[scratt]

Hi all...

I am writing to you with regards to what seems to be profiteering taken too far by certain hotels in Thailand over New Year and Christmas.

I think we all know and understand that rooms have seasonal rates, and this is acceptable to all but the most unreasonable people. No problem there.

Extreme Sports Cafe Co. Ltd. operates in Thailand to bring people to the country for various Extreme Sports and other outdoor activities.

Our remit is promoting tourism in Thailand, and for the last two years we feel we have worked very hard and had great results.

We are based in Nonthaburi and moved our global head office here 2 years ago.

Although we work with clients globally, the majority of our business and clientele come to Thailand at this time of year - Nov - April.

We are focussed, particularly post-Tsunami, on rebuilding trade in those areas of Thailand perceived as 'damaged', and also maintaining visits to the rest of the country.

Activities we offer are Kitesurfing and Windsurfing, Skydiving, Climbing, Scuba Diving etc. etc.

We have even opened the only civilian Drop Zone in South East Asia. Skydive Thailand.

We have spent the last 18 months investing heavily in Thailand and also sending many hundreds of groups of people to hotels and extreme sports schools all over the country.

We support every facet of business here. From the small individual operator to the large corporate chains. We pride ourselves on tailoring our experiences personally for each client, and dealing with their wants and needs. Our job is to make sure they get safe, cost-effective packages and have a great time.

We use various hotels in Thailand through an agency, much like we do overseas.

Some seem to have the same view as us. Others seem less caring. Such is life.

Over New Year we have clients in the Jomtien area who are not particularly interested in paying a vastly inflated price for a Gala Meal and Dinner on New Years eve. They will in fact be going on a trip with us..

To this end I was suprised to find a charge added to our booking for them which comes to almost as much as four nights in the hotel for a 'New Years Eve Gala Dinner'.

Whilst we understand that globally Hotels and Businesses offer these sorts of 'packages' and try to package them with rooms as much as possible they are usually an option which you can choose not to take part in.

Hotels in Thailand already inflate prices for busy periods such as Chinese New Year, Christmas, New Year, and this is understandable. People are not always happy, but they understand and accept this.

Assuming this was a mistake I contacted our agents who told me that it was part of their contract with the Pinnacle Hotel, and that there was nothing they could do. I mention the Pinnacle Hotel Group specifically in this email as I am dumbfounded by their attitude and response to our enquiry to them about this issue.

My next port of call was Alan, the Group Manager for Pinnacle Hotels. I explained to him who we were, as we had previously dealt with the hotel through our agents Turismo Asia. He was however aware of us and I proceeded to explain our problem.

Mr Alan was quite frank. He stated it was a "good way for the hotel to make extra money over holiday periods". I said I understood (although his frankness surprised me), that my clients will not be in the hotel on New Years Eve, do not require the meal, and are unhappy (as I would be) about being forced to pay for a meal they do not want. Alan said thaat is the case with many vistors but they still must pay for this meal they will not get! I asked Alan if he would like to be forced to pay for a meal he did not want when staying at a hotel. He declined to comment.

We touched on many viewpoints in our conversation and I even appealed to him as a company that sends him many clients each year to please waive this charge on this one occasion for these specific clients. He refused, but was unable to give any reason why our clients should have to pay for this 'service' they don't require apart from the fact that it was standard practice globally (which is not true!), and the possibility of making an easy buck as he stated earlier in our conversation.

We will be pulling all future clients from the Pinnacle Hotel Group and advising any who ask to stay elsewhere next year. We feel it is time some kind of stand was made for people coming to visit Thailand and would be grateful if you could publish this letter so that we can get peoples viewpoints on this subject.

For 2006 Extreme Sports Cafe will not be supporting any hotel in Thailand that has this kind of policy over Holiday periods, and specifically The Pinnacle Hotel Group. We feel that seasonal room rates serve this purpose well enough and the shortsighted business practice of profiteering from customers when they are unlikely to have much choice when it comes to alternate accommodation at a certain time of year is shortsighted and immoral.

Thanks for reading.

[taxexile]

whilst i agree with everything you say , i am surprised that you find it necessary to use the services of these international hotel chains when accommodating guests in thailand.

inflexibility is their main selling point !

there are more than enough smaller , well run , characterful locally owned and managed hotels that i'm sure would serve the needs of your guests admirably and perhaps give them more of a thailand experience than the international hotel chains.

p.s. do you have any extreme lazing about and pottering around type vacations to recommend ?

Edited November 4, 2005 by taxexile

[cdnvic]

Tax makes a very good point. A manager in a chain hotel who got the job mostly through connections and senority has little to gain from you. A private owner of a smaller, yet well appointed hotel however will value you much much more.

cv

[Mighty Mouse]

Does Extreme Sports Cafe Ltd. do anything for the hotel industry, other than use their rooms for accommodation purposes?

You state that your "remit is promoting tourism in Thailand" and that is commendable but why should a hotel manager offer you discounts on hotel rooms, particularly in the high season? The high season is when most hotels try and to improve their bottom line following a lacklustre low season.

You then state: Over New Year we have clients in the Jomtien area who are not particularly interested in paying a vastly inflated price for a Gala Meal and Dinner on New Years eve. They will in fact be going on a trip with us..

It seems like you have altered the itinerary from the original proposal.

You then state: I contacted our agents who told me that it was part of their contract with the Pinnacle Hotel, and that there was nothing they could do.

I think that your argument lies with your agent and whatever contract they entered into with the hotel on your behalf. The hotel, no doubt, have made certain preparations in line with the contractural requirements, assigned the cooks and perhaps even ordered the food from their supplier already.

If your company regularly used the same hotel chain for all of your Thailand functions I could understand your argument, but as you use various hotels I believe that the hotel manager was well within his rights, both legally and morally, to refuse you a discount.

[think_too_mut]

One of 3* star hotels at Jomtien, for single and twin. Note 31st of December. A 1000B room goes to 9,320.

1 May 05 - 31 Oct 05 990 1,000

1 Nov 05 - 23 Dec 05 1,130 1,130

24 Dec 05 - 24 Dec 05 3,210 5,310

25 Dec 05 - 30 Dec 05 2,155 2,155

31 Dec 05 - 31 Dec 05 5,720 9,320

1 Jan 06 - 10 Jan 06 2,155 2,155

11 Jan 06 - 28 Jan 06 1,130 1,130 1,615 yes yes

29 Jan 06 - 4 Feb 06 1,770 1,770 2,255 yes yes

[scratt]

Does Extreme Sports Cafe Ltd. do anything for the hotel industry, other than use their rooms for accommodation purposes?

You state that your "remit is promoting tourism in Thailand" and that is commendable but why should a hotel manager offer you discounts on hotel rooms, particularly in the high season? The high season is when most hotels try and to improve their bottom line following a lacklustre low season.

You then state: Over New Year we have clients in the Jomtien area who are not particularly interested in paying a vastly inflated price for a Gala Meal and Dinner on New Years eve. They will in fact be going on a trip with us..

It seems like you have altered the itinerary from the original proposal.

You then state: I contacted our agents who told me that it was part of their contract with the Pinnacle Hotel, and that there was nothing they could do.

I think that your argument lies with your agent and whatever contract they entered into with the hotel on your behalf. The hotel, no doubt, have made certain preparations in line with the contractural requirements, assigned the cooks and perhaps even ordered the food from their supplier already.

If your company regularly used the same hotel chain for all of your Thailand functions I could understand your argument, but as you use various hotels I believe that the hotel manager was well within his rights, both legally and morally, to refuse you a discount.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We have altered no itinerary. You need to read my post again.

We have also not asked for discounts on room rates! I even said specifically in my post I understand about seasonal rates. If you are going to take part in this at least read my post before commenting incorrectly.

This particular group are spending a month in Thailand and that is a small part of their trip. All the more making me feel bad for even suggesting that they pay money for something they don't want! They are doing everything from flying to Kitesurfing, to Wakeboarding etc. etc. and are doing all of that in about 4 different regions of Thailand. Their whole package is great apart from this one blight on it. It's a little niggle.. But think about it. You have a cool group of people doing a lot of stuff and paying good money for it, and on New Years Eve you have to tell them "Oh by the way.. if you want to stay at this hotel you have to pay US$125 for a meal you dont want. Is that ok? Happy New Year idiots!" Duh!

The Pinnacle happens to be right next door to two or three locations we use.

We are constantly searching for somewhere alternative, but most of our people want to fall out of bed and go straight on the sea. So they have something of a monopoly over us, and others who want to be on that area of the beach. And they exploit it. Good on them. But so far is too far..

For skydiving and other activities we do use small local operators and love them.

With those operators I don't even ask for discount myself because they are such good value I don't feel it's fair. They in turn often do wonderful things for us like the odd free meal, or let us party with the hotel owners themselves. They even run some of our clients to the hospital / chemist if they have a cold or other injury. All for no charge.

This is so typical of the small independant operators here I wish we could just use them exclusively.

For example Mr.Chans Coffee and Art House is a hotel and restaurant just outside the main strip of Pattaya. And we regularly fill that up with skydivers. We push small operators as much as we can, and try as much as we can to get our clients to go to these fantastic places.

However, a lot of clients want the perceived security of a chain. They then complain about the cost! What can you do!!?!?

So we have to supply for all of our clients and for all of their needs..

From camping right up to the Marriot.

For the latter the only way forward is to use agencies. There are just too many hotels and contracts for us to try and work on those ourselves with each individual hotel... Agencies overall do a better job and allow us to get on with what we are good at.. Sports.

With regards to our agency being at fault. I might tend to agree with you, but we have had consistent problems with the Pinnacle about room rates, under selling on the internet in breach of their own contracts etc. Plus it's run by a Fallang, and in my view, and personal experience these corporate Fallangs in Thailand are by far the worst at having little or no regard for Thais, or foreigners who either live here or holiday here..

To be honest I really don't want the hotel side of the business. The margin is so low on some of them that with credit card and bank charges we even make a loss on certain hotels.. But that's business... People want a package we do the best to supply it.

And don't get me started on the profiterring by transfers agencies now that we are in the midst of the 'GLOBAL OIL CRISIS' <- should read. Another opportunity for normal Thais to suffer and big companies to wax lyrical and make more profits!

Edited November 4, 2005 by scratt

[scratt]

whilst i agree with everything you say , i am surprised that you find it necessary to use the services of these international hotel chains when accommodating guests in thailand.

inflexibility is their main selling point !

there are more than enough smaller , well run , characterful locally owned and managed hotels that i'm sure would serve the needs of your guests admirably and perhaps give them more of a thailand experience than the international hotel chains.

p.s. do you have any extreme lazing about and pottering around type vacations to recommend ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have answered your first points in my post just above..

Hmm.. Extreme Lazing.. Come see me on a day off and I'll give you some free tips!

[lopburi3]

whilst i agree with everything you say , i am surprised that you find it necessary to use the services of these international hotel chains when accommodating guests in thailand.

inflexibility is their main selling point !

there are more than enough smaller , well run , characterful locally owned and managed hotels that i'm sure would serve the needs of your guests admirably and perhaps give them more of a thailand experience than the international hotel chains.

p.s. do you have any extreme lazing about and pottering around type vacations to recommend ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have answered your first points in my post just above..

Hmm.. Extreme Lazing.. Come see me on a day off and I'll give you some free tips!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps some of us were full having to eat all the advertising before getting to the meat; but I missed that too, and not going back for seconds.

[Dickie_Doo]

After the tsunami, someone wrote to the Bangkok Post, expressing the thought that perhaps it would result in tourists being given incentives in the form of cheaper rooms.

As the corollary though, expect to be nailed when the going is good.

Its just a business and a ruthless one. Tourists should not feel sentimental

[scratt]

whilst i agree with everything you say , i am surprised that you find it necessary to use the services of these international hotel chains when accommodating guests in thailand.

inflexibility is their main selling point !

there are more than enough smaller , well run , characterful locally owned and managed hotels that i'm sure would serve the needs of your guests admirably and perhaps give them more of a thailand experience than the international hotel chains.

p.s. do you have any extreme lazing about and pottering around type vacations to recommend ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have answered your first points in my post just above..

Hmm.. Extreme Lazing.. Come see me on a day off and I'll give you some free tips!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps some of us were full having to eat all the advertising before getting to the meat; but I missed that too, and not going back for seconds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really was not advertising. I do hope people realise that. I felt the background was important so that people could see a balanced viewpoint. I have been on this fforum for a while and even contributed to it and other parts of it. In those times I had ample time to plug stuff if I wanted to... I did not.

I really hoped that people would sympathise (not with me as we will make money out of any package we put together as we are in business) but with individuals who come to Thailand and get exploited by this hotel and others that are like minded.

I repeat.. I do not have a problem with premium rate rooms over New Year. Supply and Demand. But forcing people to eat in your establishment, or pay for it even if they do not want it is wrong. period.

[scratt]

After the tsunami, someone wrote to the Bangkok Post, expressing the thought that perhaps it would result in tourists being given incentives in the form of cheaper rooms.

As the corollary though, expect to be nailed when the going is good.

Its just a business and a ruthless one. Tourists should not feel sentimental

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I for one did not endorce cheap deals paid for by suppliers in Thailand after the Tsunami. If people wished to do that as a business decision then fine. And good luck to them. It may or may not be a good idea.. But it should be a choice taken by suppliers...

Also prices do go up and down.

Globally people expect to may more at Christmas and New Year and so on.. Understood.

But can you see that being made to pay for something you don't want and have stated you will not use is wrong? I would rather they put an extra charge on the room...

Perhaps I just don't like the idea of food going to waste!

[Dickie_Doo]

Its certainly a swindle.

But I don't think they are trying to con people who don't want the Gala Dinner.

They just dont want you to stay at that time, not when they can let the room to someone who will pay and binge.

So, looking at it that way, its less of a swindle.

(Just get revenge by not staying there any other time.)

[lopburi3]

After the tsunami, someone wrote to the Bangkok Post, expressing the thought that perhaps it would result in tourists being given incentives in the form of cheaper rooms.

As the corollary though, expect to be nailed when the going is good.

Its just a business and a ruthless one. Tourists should not feel sentimental

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I for one did not endorce cheap deals paid for by suppliers in Thailand after the Tsunami. If people wished to do that as a business decision then fine. And good luck to them. It may or may not be a good idea.. But it should be a choice taken by suppliers...

Also prices do go up and down.

Globally people expect to may more at Christmas and New Year and so on.. Understood.

But can you see that being made to pay for something you don't want and have stated you will not use is wrong? I would rather they put an extra charge on the room...

Perhaps I just don't like the idea of food going to waste!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But this is what I do not understand and am too lazy to read your first post again - why not arrange your program to take advantage of the meals - or book where it is not a factor - rather than complain to us? As a guest I might be upset but as it is an open charge and fully documented I would have nobody to blame but myself if I booked my room there. It appears you want to blame the hotel for your booking clients there; rather than yourself. The suggestion to find alternate accommodations I thought was a good one.

I was not suggesting your post had advertising as a primary reason (although it did cross my mind) - just that there was a bunch of stuff to digest before you got to the subject.

[scratt]

After the tsunami, someone wrote to the Bangkok Post, expressing the thought that perhaps it would result in tourists being given incentives in the form of cheaper rooms.

As the corollary though, expect to be nailed when the going is good.

Its just a business and a ruthless one. Tourists should not feel sentimental

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I for one did not endorce cheap deals paid for by suppliers in Thailand after the Tsunami. If people wished to do that as a business decision then fine. And good luck to them. It may or may not be a good idea.. But it should be a choice taken by suppliers...

Also prices do go up and down.

Globally people expect to may more at Christmas and New Year and so on.. Understood.

But can you see that being made to pay for something you don't want and have stated you will not use is wrong? I would rather they put an extra charge on the room...

Perhaps I just don't like the idea of food going to waste!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But this is what I do not understand and am too lazy to read your first post again - why not arrange your program to take advantage of the meals - or book where it is not a factor - rather than complain to us? As a guest I might be upset but as it is an open charge and fully documented I would have nobody to blame but myself if I booked my room there. It appears you want to blame the hotel for your booking clients there; rather than yourself. The suggestion to find alternate accommodations I thought was a good one.

I was not suggesting your post had advertising as a primary reason (although it did cross my mind) - just that there was a bunch of stuff to digest before you got to the subject.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point... We were let down by our agent in that we were not made aware of the contract deal. That is something I will take up with them. I have already let our clients know that it is our mistake. Simple as that. Andd it's really no biggie in that sense as I will put them in a different hotel and cover and tansportation out of our pockets to get them to their daily activities. That's what customer service is about...

However it does not take away from the fact that increasing room rates and then sticking something on the deal as a compulsory purchase is wrong! For this the Pinnacle Hotel is wrong. To be totally intransigent about it when asked by a good client personally as a favour is plain stupid.

The fact is that when you go to a shop to buy a jumper which was 1000 Baht last week for 3000 Baht this week and they then say that if you want that jumper on this particular day then you also have to buy these trousers for 5000 Baht you might feel a little peeved when your mate bought the same jumper alone for 2000 Baht the day before! I am using the exact figures for the hotel rooms, and Gala Meal rates in this example!

We are used to shops giving discount if you buy two or more things.. But not penalising you for buying any item on a given day! Yes prices go down after Christmas, but you still buy what you want, when you want.

I know few of us stay in these hotels here for good reason IMHO. So it doesn't affect any of us directly.

For the manager of the Pinnacle Hotels to say 'Tough Crap we just want to make as much money on this day as we can, and don't really care about your clients' is not particularly responsible or helpful. Particularly when you consider that I asked if they could skip the meal but pay a lesser (extra) supplement on the rooms as a compromise. What ever happend to customer service for us as a client, for our agency as a client or for our customer!

The simple solution is for us to vote with our feet. And to that end we will cancel booking with the Pinnacle and not use them in the future. Period.

I really wasn't coming here for sympathy.. Just to let people know about it and garner their opinons. I am sure if it was directly affecting any one of you you might feel it more... But I am grateful for the feedback so far..

Thanks for everyones time...

[Thaipwriter]

I am glad i read this thread, i have learned to things:

1. Everything i will ever need to know about Scratt's business apart from the telephone number and website.

2 look out for compulsory dinners when booking hotels at peak times.

[Old Croc]

I'm in Phukett over the Xmas - New Year period. My hotel is charging me 5,700 baht for gala dinners I don't want.

However, I was aware this would be the case when I booked. I wanted to stay at this hotel anyway so wore it.

I haven't seen this type of rip off in any other country.

[scratt]

I'm in Phukett over the Xmas - New Year period. My hotel is charging me 5,700 baht for gala dinners I don't want.

However, I was aware this would be the case when I booked. I wanted to stay at this hotel anyway so wore it.

I haven't seen this type of rip off in any other country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It absolutely stinks doesn't it?

And you are absolutely right.. Despite the manager of the Pinnacle Hotel chain stating that it is standard accross the world, that is not the case. Everywhere but Thailand this is something that is promoted but not compulsory. You can take it or leave it. In the UK for example you need to book well in advance or you CAN'T have it... And hotels, bars and restaurants always end up fully booked at most places anyway.. So why force it down people's throats!

It is things like this I believe that will eventually make people vote with their feet and boycott these kinds of hotels.. However, until everyone pulls together and does something about it they will be able to rip us all of individually.

Here is some feedback I have had from elsewhere in the media in Thailand..

Yes, it's been common practice for years here in Phuket. Although we hear grumbles from time to time, the practice persists. I guess that the percentage of people who complain must be pretty small. Usually hotels are hypersensitive to complaints, especially when they are aired in the press, but in this case they have hides like rhinos.

Perhaps if enough tour agents/organizers got together to complain, they would rethink.

As I said before it has cost the hotel chain that have done it to me over 250 bookings which is our average each year with them.. These people in 2006 will be going somewhere else where I have pre-negotiated a no New Year Scam deal.

Edited November 5, 2005 by scratt

[Mighty Mouse]

Your agent is obviously getting a huge commission. The hotel is recouping that commission by imposing upon your group the gala dinner.

I suggest that your company takes a long and hard look at how your agent operates.

[scratt]

Your agent is obviously getting a huge commission. The hotel is recouping that commission by imposing upon your group the gala dinner.

I suggest that your company takes a long and hard look at how your agent operates.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well it appears you don't even understand the system.

This Gala Dinner is comulsory for every person, walk-in up to package deal.

My agent books this for me and I pay the agent. Not the other way around as your post seems to imply. The hotel is paid by my agent.

My agent is also one of the biggest in Thailand, and whilst they do indeed make a profit on their cut it is inline with industry norms, and also they handle all booking logistics, as well as giving me 30 days credit. I also jump out of planes with one of the senoir managers, and deal with him on all important issues either by calling his mobile or home number. I also happen to be a frequent house guest of his...

Are you just trying to stir MightyMouse? It does seem it from your attitude so dar in this thread..

[madmitch]

It's definitely not unique to Thailand. Just have a look through any standard holiday brochure and you'll find this at hundreds of establishments all over the world.

[scratt]

It's definitely not unique to Thailand. Just have a look through any standard holiday brochure and you'll find this at hundreds of establishments all over the world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed, with the difference being that agents and tour opreators can talk to the hotel and say they don't want it and negotiate a different package.

Heck, even customers can do it. As I have done myself.

It's only in Thailand that they enforce it in such an unfair way.

[Krub]

Look at it as a mark up on the room charge for the Xmas or New year's eve with a free gala dinner thrown in.

As you said if you don't like it vote with your feet and don't buy, don't go, don't use them.

They are hardly making a scam if these compolsury extras are advertised with the hotel room rates.

Take it or leave it

Edited November 5, 2005 by Krub

[scratt]

Look at it as a mark up on the room charge for the Xmas or New year's eve with a free gala dinner thrown in.

As you said if you don't like it vote with your feet and don't buy, don't go, don't use them.

They are hardly making a scam if these compolsury extras are advertised with the hotel room rates.

Take it or leave it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed.

But the rooms have already been marked up for New Years and Christmas. So that's a little hard to pretend!

[britmaveric]

Most hotels jack prices up 500bht a night from 20Dec through 10 Jan - unfortunately either pay or go elsewhere.

[scratt]

Most hotels jack prices up 500bht a night from 20Dec through 10 Jan - unfortunately either pay or go elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read the whole thread please... There's little point in repaeating the same thing over and over again. Particularly when it's not that relevant the the reasons behind the conversation!

[richard10365]

I think I'll go to the temple in the village where I live for new years. I was there last year and had a blast. Then sleep in my own bed for free.