Are Thais Taught Anything About The World Outside Of Thailand

[SteeleJoe]

So no doubt you are aware that the Axis forces occupied Thailand during World War 2, enslaved and murdered at least 300,000 Thais. No doubt you also know that Hitler founded the Axis and signed the concordat with the Japanese. No doubt you will also know that this resulted in mass rape and slaughter throughout Asia, including The Rape of Nanking in China, the decimation of several Malaysian tribes, the occupation of the Philippines, and the Fall and Enslavement of Singapore amongst many other examples.

• It wasn't "the Axis" forces, it was Japan. The Axis was pretty much something that existed on paper only. Japan had its own strategy that was devised by them and for their own reasons: Hitler had NOTHING to do with it. In fact, the Triparite Pact only required the other signatory countries to join forces in the event one of the countires was attacked. Japan was not attacked in SEA, it was the attacker and, again, it had its own strategy and motives. (It certainly did not rely on any role for Germany in its "Asian Co-prosperity Sphere"

• Where did you get this figure of 300,000? That's more than the combined total -- already horribly large -- of POW and Asian laborer (the vat majority of whom were NOT Thai) deaths that I know of. Thailand was to all intents and purposes Japan's ally (and indeed officially was so). As such, it suffered considerably less than it neighbors from the horrible cruelties perpetrated by the Japanese. In fact, the Japanese were rather popular for while (that was most assuredly not so in the places they occupied with force).

• The mass rape and slaughter did not result from the concordant. That's absurd. (And Naking was in '37).

I can't help but comment on your inaccuracies as the irony of you pointing out a lack of proper historical knowledge was just too much...

EDIT: Sorry. My PC is acting up and not loading pages properly: I missed the bottom of the page and didn't realize that i was being so redundant given Kerry's already spot on posts.

Edited September 18, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[theblether]

The Battle of Britain.

In all the events of history, what relevance now, anywhere, let alone Asia?

Where, today, would children learn about that at school?

Britain, even? Ask the 'yoof of today' seen recently rioting and burning in their own 'Battle of Britain'

Hitler has been superceded by more recent genocides, wars.

In the 'nice to know' category maybe, but doesn''t help one get a job in 2011.

Prince Philip said " Ignorance is not knowing, but not wanting to know ".

So no doubt you are aware that the Axis forces occupied Thailand during World War 2, enslaved and murdered at least 300,000 Thais. No doubt you also know that Hitler founded the Axis and signed the concordat with the Japanese. No doubt you will also know that this resulted in mass rape and slaughter throughout Asia, including The Rape of Nanking in China, the decimation of several Malaysian tribes, the occupation of the Philippines, and the Fall and Enslavement of Singapore amongst many other examples.

All this within the living memory of Thailand and the rest of Asia, and you ask what Hitler had to do with Asia?

Then you ask about helping to get a job in 2011? A direct result of the actions of Hitler was the rush to social and political inclusion, which begat the original common market formed between primarily Germany and France in the 1950's. This rush to inclusion, with a primary aim to prevent further wars erupting in Europe, then morphed into the European Union as we know it today, and the experiment with the single European currency, known as the Euro.

As I write this today, Greece is on the edge of insolvency, this may bring down the Euro, and this is causing panic in every major Capital in the world. If Greece goes down then the world economy will spin down out of control. You may find this will have a direct effect upon your exchange rate, your cost of living, worldwide social cohesion, and chances of people getting a job in 2011.

I could go on, but I think any reasonable person reading this will see that I have made my point. The OP is fundamentally correct, the Thai education system is not providing a broad enough view of the world. As such ignorance ( as in not knowing ) is allowed to flourish.

What's your excuse for being ignorant?

ps This is for the benefit of all Thaivisa members that have an interest in history and current affairs. The Chinese watched the arms race and watched the ruination of the Russian economy. They realized that an new arms race was a waste of time and effort, so they concentrated their resources in building their economy. The Chinese central bank is now sitting on a reserve of around $5 trillion. They are buying up government debts and bonds throughout the world, most famously in the USA.

Some members may have noticed Italy announced a deal with China re bond funding last week, and the Chinese have also looked at buying Greek bonds. What's the end game?

"He who pays the piper calls the tune".....................why go to war when you can wreck a countries economy overnight but simply calling in your debt.

Very very cunning huh? Now your starting to see the REAL COST of that cheap pair of shoes you bought at Walmart.

I think you made a point. Thailand was not occupied by Axis forces during WW II; the Brits occupied Bangkok in 1946, and the Thai deaths were around 8,000 not 300,000. Those are really big errors. I guess your history lessons were substandard too.

Give me strength, the Japs used over 200,000 Thai forced labourers building the Death Railway. 80,000 of them died on this project alone. There were Jap infrastructure projects taking place all over the country, using forced labour everywhere. The Japs were Axis troops.

The Thais ( those that know anything about it ) are ashamed of this whole period, they like to put forth that they have never been occupied, but they know that they were forced into submission by Japan. It is one of the most traumatic scars on Thai history.

[theblether]

So no doubt you are aware that the Axis forces occupied Thailand during World War 2, enslaved and murdered at least 300,000 Thais. No doubt you also know that Hitler founded the Axis and signed the concordat with the Japanese. No doubt you will also know that this resulted in mass rape and slaughter throughout Asia, including The Rape of Nanking in China, the decimation of several Malaysian tribes, the occupation of the Philippines, and the Fall and Enslavement of Singapore amongst many other examples.

• It wasn't "the Axis" forces, it was Japan. The Axis was pretty much something that existed on paper only. Japan had its own strategy that was devised by them and for their own reasons: Hitler had NOTHING to do with it. In fact, the Triparite Pact only required the other signatory countries to join forces in the event one of the countires was attacked. Japan was not attacked in SEA, it was the attacker and, again, it had its own strategy and motives. (It certainly did not rely on any role for Germany in its "Asian Co-prosperity Sphere"

• Where did you get this figure of 300,000? That's more than the combined total -- already horribly large -- of POW and Asian laborer (the vat majority of whom were NOT Thai) deaths that I know of. Thailand was to all intents and purposes Japan's ally (and indeed officially was so). As such, it suffered considerably less than it neighbors from the horrible cruelties perpetrated by the Japanese. In fact, the Japanese were rather popular for while (that was most assuredly not so in the places they occupied with force).

• The mass rape and slaughter did not result from the concordant. That's absurd. (And Naking was in '37).

I can't help but comment on your inaccuracies as the irony of you pointing out a lack of proper historical knowledge was just too much...

EDIT: Sorry. My PC is acting up and not loading pages properly: I missed the bottom of the page and didn't realize that i was being so redundant given Kerry's already spot on posts.

Sorry, such a foolish and ignorant post. A direct consequence of the Axis concordant was Germany declaring war on America. Please note, Germany declaring war on America. Just in case you missed it........Germany declared war on America..........as a direct result of the Axis concordant.

Re Nanking, I apologized earlier for using that example out of context. It is safe to say that there were mass rapes and slaughters after the concordant was signed. It is also safe to say that if the European forces, and in particular British forces, were not wrapped up in a European War then the Japanese would have found there surge to domination in the Pacific area more difficult.

However, I've no doubt the American soldiers lying in graves that I have visited in Europe will be pleased with your assessment that the Tripartite ( Axis ) agreement was only a paper exercise.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/11/newsid_3532000/3532401.stm

[SteeleJoe]

Give me strength, the Japs used over 200,000 Thai forced labourers building the Death Railway. 80,000 of them died on this project alone. There were Jap infrastructure projects taking place all over the country, using forced labour everywhere. The Japs were Axis troops.

The Thais ( those that know anything about it ) are ashamed of this whole period, they like to put forth that they have never been occupied, but they know that they were forced into submission by Japan. It is one of the most traumatic scars on Thai history.

Source (one that contradicts the sources that tell of a total of approximately 90,000 Romusha and other Asian laborer deaths (ie slaves), the vast majority not Thai).

Yes, they used forced labor everywhere. And they used laborers from all over SEA (hundreds of thousands were sent all over SEA).

The Japanese were "Axis troops"? You speak as if the invasion of SEA was a an Axis military venture. It wasn't. This is nothing like a UN invasion of Iraq or some NATO operation. The Axis wasn't a military organization as such. Calling the Japanese "Axis troops" is not only misleading but even the extent to which ti's true it is completely irrelevant in this context.

s for being forced into submission: there's no question Thailand would have had little choice if its government hadn't gone along -- which it did -- but you ignore a whole lot of context.

[kerryk]

The Battle of Britain.

In all the events of history, what relevance now, anywhere, let alone Asia?

Where, today, would children learn about that at school?

Britain, even? Ask the 'yoof of today' seen recently rioting and burning in their own 'Battle of Britain'

Hitler has been superceded by more recent genocides, wars.

In the 'nice to know' category maybe, but doesn''t help one get a job in 2011.

Prince Philip said " Ignorance is not knowing, but not wanting to know ".

So no doubt you are aware that the Axis forces occupied Thailand during World War 2, enslaved and murdered at least 300,000 Thais. No doubt you also know that Hitler founded the Axis and signed the concordat with the Japanese. No doubt you will also know that this resulted in mass rape and slaughter throughout Asia, including The Rape of Nanking in China, the decimation of several Malaysian tribes, the occupation of the Philippines, and the Fall and Enslavement of Singapore amongst many other examples.

All this within the living memory of Thailand and the rest of Asia, and you ask what Hitler had to do with Asia?

Then you ask about helping to get a job in 2011? A direct result of the actions of Hitler was the rush to social and political inclusion, which begat the original common market formed between primarily Germany and France in the 1950's. This rush to inclusion, with a primary aim to prevent further wars erupting in Europe, then morphed into the European Union as we know it today, and the experiment with the single European currency, known as the Euro.

As I write this today, Greece is on the edge of insolvency, this may bring down the Euro, and this is causing panic in every major Capital in the world. If Greece goes down then the world economy will spin down out of control. You may find this will have a direct effect upon your exchange rate, your cost of living, worldwide social cohesion, and chances of people getting a job in 2011.

I could go on, but I think any reasonable person reading this will see that I have made my point. The OP is fundamentally correct, the Thai education system is not providing a broad enough view of the world. As such ignorance ( as in not knowing ) is allowed to flourish.

What's your excuse for being ignorant?

ps This is for the benefit of all Thaivisa members that have an interest in history and current affairs. The Chinese watched the arms race and watched the ruination of the Russian economy. They realized that an new arms race was a waste of time and effort, so they concentrated their resources in building their economy. The Chinese central bank is now sitting on a reserve of around $5 trillion. They are buying up government debts and bonds throughout the world, most famously in the USA.

Some members may have noticed Italy announced a deal with China re bond funding last week, and the Chinese have also looked at buying Greek bonds. What's the end game?

"He who pays the piper calls the tune".....................why go to war when you can wreck a countries economy overnight but simply calling in your debt.

Very very cunning huh? Now your starting to see the REAL COST of that cheap pair of shoes you bought at Walmart.

I think you made a point. Thailand was not occupied by Axis forces during WW II; the Brits occupied Bangkok in 1946, and the Thai deaths were around 8,000 not 300,000. Those are really big errors. I guess your history lessons were substandard too.

Give me strength, the Japs used over 200,000 Thai forced labourers building the Death Railway. 80,000 of them died on this project alone. There were Jap infrastructure projects taking place all over the country, using forced labour everywhere. The Japs were Axis troops.

The Thais ( those that know anything about it ) are ashamed of this whole period, they like to put forth that they have never been occupied, but they know that they were forced into submission by Japan. It is one of the most traumatic scars on Thai history.

Computer problem

Edited September 18, 2011 by kerryk

[kerryk]

So no doubt you are aware that the Axis forces occupied Thailand during World War 2, enslaved and murdered at least 300,000 Thais. No doubt you also know that Hitler founded the Axis and signed the concordat with the Japanese. No doubt you will also know that this resulted in mass rape and slaughter throughout Asia, including The Rape of Nanking in China, the decimation of several Malaysian tribes, the occupation of the Philippines, and the Fall and Enslavement of Singapore amongst many other examples.

• It wasn't "the Axis" forces, it was Japan. The Axis was pretty much something that existed on paper only. Japan had its own strategy that was devised by them and for their own reasons: Hitler had NOTHING to do with it. In fact, the Triparite Pact only required the other signatory countries to join forces in the event one of the countires was attacked. Japan was not attacked in SEA, it was the attacker and, again, it had its own strategy and motives. (It certainly did not rely on any role for Germany in its "Asian Co-prosperity Sphere"

• Where did you get this figure of 300,000? That's more than the combined total -- already horribly large -- of POW and Asian laborer (the vat majority of whom were NOT Thai) deaths that I know of. Thailand was to all intents and purposes Japan's ally (and indeed officially was so). As such, it suffered considerably less than it neighbors from the horrible cruelties perpetrated by the Japanese. In fact, the Japanese were rather popular for while (that was most assuredly not so in the places they occupied with force).

• The mass rape and slaughter did not result from the concordant. That's absurd. (And Naking was in '37).

I can't help but comment on your inaccuracies as the irony of you pointing out a lack of proper historical knowledge was just too much...

EDIT: Sorry. My PC is acting up and not loading pages properly: I missed the bottom of the page and didn't realize that i was being so redundant given Kerry's already spot on posts.

And it should also be noted that June 12, 1940 the Japan Thailand non aggression pact was signed and Thailand began to buy arms from Japan and Italy 7 months before Japan landed with little or no resistance in Thailand. Only a few weeks later Japanese aircraft were flying out of Thai airbases against Burma.

I agree the Thais who know about it are ashamed of that period in their history. Even at the time the boss Phibun said to his chief of staff he knew he was on the wrong side three years before Thailand and Japan eventually surrendered to the Allies.

[SteeleJoe]

Sorry, such a foolish and ignorant post. A direct consequence of the Axis concordant was Germany declaring war on America. Please note, Germany declaring war on America. Just in case you missed it........Germany declared war on America..........as a direct result of the Axis concordant.

Re Nanking, I apologized earlier for using that example out of context. It is safe to say that there were mass rapes and slaughters after the concordant was signed. It is also safe to say that if the European forces, and in particular British forces, were not wrapped up in a European War then the Japanese would have found there surge to domination in the Pacific area more difficult.

However, I've no doubt the American soldiers lying in graves that I have visited in Europe will be pleased with your assessment that the Tripartite ( Axis ) agreement was only a paper exercise.

http://news.bbc.co.u...000/3532401.stm

Germany did not declare war "as a direct result. of "the concordant".

ARTICLE 3. Japan, Germany, and Italy agree to cooperate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means if one of the Contracting Powers is attacked by a Power at present not involved in the European War or in the Japanese-Chinese conflict.

Are you familiar with Rainbow Five? Hitler has is reasons for declaring war on the US (widely though not universally viewed as an error) and you are confusing cause and effect: the Triparite Pact came about for the same reasons Hitler declared war, the declaration wasn't the result of the pact and was not required by it.

And I said nothing about the US so that strawman is rather pathetic. I pointed out that the invasion of SEA was NOT a result of the "concordant". Show me how that is foolish and ignorant.

I've visited the graves too. Including those of my relatives. Your effort to imply that I diminish the evils of what happened in WWII or the loss of those lives is completely unfounded, very dishonest and really scummy.

EDIT:

From your own link (which I confess I ignored since I was well aware of the declaration of war and didn't need to read the BBC to find out it happened.

In retrospect Hitler's decision to declare war on a major world power such as the US seems like a major strategic error.

But he could no longer ignore the amount of economic and military aid America was giving the UK and the Soviet Union via the lend-lease programme.

The German Navy had even fought US warships protecting British supply ships in the Atlantic. The US destroyer Reuben James was torpedoed and sunk by the submarine U-562 on 31 October 1941.

Hitler had been hostile to the USA since the early 1930s. He saw USA as an ideological enemy , racially mixed and therefore inferior.

He also assumed America would be busy fighting Japan while Germany concentrated on taking over the USSR. He would then tackle the British and Americans.

No mention of "the concordant" there...The above underlibnes what I (and anyone reasonably conversant in the facts) know: even though the pact did not require Germany to declare war, Hitler had his reasons for doing so -- not at all unfounded either.

Edited September 18, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[theblether]

We're at risk of hijacking this thread ( more to the point we have hijacked it ), so I'll not be responding to any more posts about the war-time experience of Thailand. If anyone would like to continue the debate pm me.

Going back once again to the OP's point, at least we have the education to get tied up in this kind of debate.

[SteeleJoe]

We're at risk of hijacking this thread ( more to the point we have hijacked it ), so I'll not be responding to any more posts about the war-time experience of Thailand. If anyone would like to continue the debate pm me.

What's known in military terms as a hasty retreat. Good timing.

Going back once again to the OP's point, at least we have the education to get tied up in this kind of debate.

Agreed. Mind you, decent debate requires more than education -- intellectual honesty; being abler to substantiate assertions of absolute fact with evidence; and refraining from gratuitous insults and the use straw men and ad hominem come to mind...

[theblether]

We're at risk of hijacking this thread ( more to the point we have hijacked it ), so I'll not be responding to any more posts about the war-time experience of Thailand. If anyone would like to continue the debate pm me.

What's known in military terms as a hasty retreat. Good timing.

Going back once again to the OP's point, at least we have the education to get tied up in this kind of debate.

Agreed. Mind you, decent debate requires more than education -- intellectual honesty; being abler to substantiate assertions of absolute fact with evidence; and refraining from gratuitous insults and the use straw men and ad hominem come to mind...

It wasn't actually a hasty retreat, you are invited to pm me to continue this debate. There is a limit as to how far we should allow ourselves to drift off topic here on Thaivisa and in my opinion on this particular , we have reached it.

I'm waiting with baited breath for your pm.

[kerryk]

The Battle of Britain.

In all the events of history, what relevance now, anywhere, let alone Asia?

Where, today, would children learn about that at school?

Britain, even? Ask the 'yoof of today' seen recently rioting and burning in their own 'Battle of Britain'

Hitler has been superceded by more recent genocides, wars.

In the 'nice to know' category maybe, but doesn''t help one get a job in 2011.

Prince Philip said " Ignorance is not knowing, but not wanting to know ".

So no doubt you are aware that the Axis forces occupied Thailand during World War 2, enslaved and murdered at least 300,000 Thais. No doubt you also know that Hitler founded the Axis and signed the concordat with the Japanese. No doubt you will also know that this resulted in mass rape and slaughter throughout Asia, including The Rape of Nanking in China, the decimation of several Malaysian tribes, the occupation of the Philippines, and the Fall and Enslavement of Singapore amongst many other examples.

All this within the living memory of Thailand and the rest of Asia, and you ask what Hitler had to do with Asia?

Then you ask about helping to get a job in 2011? A direct result of the actions of Hitler was the rush to social and political inclusion, which begat the original common market formed between primarily Germany and France in the 1950's. This rush to inclusion, with a primary aim to prevent further wars erupting in Europe, then morphed into the European Union as we know it today, and the experiment with the single European currency, known as the Euro.

As I write this today, Greece is on the edge of insolvency, this may bring down the Euro, and this is causing panic in every major Capital in the world. If Greece goes down then the world economy will spin down out of control. You may find this will have a direct effect upon your exchange rate, your cost of living, worldwide social cohesion, and chances of people getting a job in 2011.

I could go on, but I think any reasonable person reading this will see that I have made my point. The OP is fundamentally correct, the Thai education system is not providing a broad enough view of the world. As such ignorance ( as in not knowing ) is allowed to flourish.

What's your excuse for being ignorant?

ps This is for the benefit of all Thaivisa members that have an interest in history and current affairs. The Chinese watched the arms race and watched the ruination of the Russian economy. They realized that an new arms race was a waste of time and effort, so they concentrated their resources in building their economy. The Chinese central bank is now sitting on a reserve of around $5 trillion. They are buying up government debts and bonds throughout the world, most famously in the USA.

Some members may have noticed Italy announced a deal with China re bond funding last week, and the Chinese have also looked at buying Greek bonds. What's the end game?

"He who pays the piper calls the tune".....................why go to war when you can wreck a countries economy overnight but simply calling in your debt.

Very very cunning huh? Now your starting to see the REAL COST of that cheap pair of shoes you bought at Walmart.

I think you made a point. Thailand was not occupied by Axis forces during WW II; the Brits occupied Bangkok in 1946, and the Thai deaths were around 8,000 not 300,000. Those are really big errors. I guess your history lessons were substandard too.

Give me strength, the Japs used over 200,000 Thai forced labourers building the Death Railway. 80,000 of them died on this project alone. There were Jap infrastructure projects taking place all over the country, using forced labour everywhere. The Japs were Axis troops.

The Thais ( those that know anything about it ) are ashamed of this whole period, they like to put forth that they have never been occupied, but they know that they were forced into submission by Japan. It is one of the most traumatic scars on Thai history.

I think if you look again you will realize that the death statistics of the railway do not mention Thais. That is why every casualty figure for WW II in Thailand is around 7 or 8,000 people. If you look up the railway projects you will find the Japanese employed Thai engineers for the survey work. Thais got paid to work for the Japanese. If you know of any please post a link where Thai forced labor and Thai deaths are quoted. It says slave labor but the slaves were not Thai. Almost all of the disputes between the Thais and Japanese concerned money. January 1942 Thailand declared war on Britain and the United States,

[SteeleJoe]

There is a limit as to how far we should allow ourselves to drift off topic here on Thaivisa and in my opinion on this particular , we have reached it.

I'm waiting with baited breath for your pm.

Agreed. I just thought you reached that conclusion at a convenient time.

I may PM you eventually but don't wait -- though I wasn't previously conscious of it and am not sure why it would be so (showing off?), perhaps I only want to debate in public. Or else I'm just bored with this at the moment. (And here's some more fruit of a good education: it's "bated" breath -- as in subdued while waiting. Nothing to do with bait...which wouldn't make one's breath very pleasant. )

[SteeleJoe]

I think if you look again you will realize that the death statistics of the railway do not mention Thais. That is why every casualty figure for WW II in Thailand is around 7 or 8,000 people. If you look up the railway projects you will find the Japanese employed Thai engineers for the survey work. Thais got paid to work for the Japanese. If you know of any please post a link where Thai forced labor and Thai deaths are quoted. It says slave labor but the slaves were not Thai. Almost all of the disputes between the Thais and Japanese concerned money. January 1942 Thailand declared war on Britain and the United States,

I'm pretty sure there were some instances of Thais being forced laborers but in proportionately very low numbers...but I can't recall where I got that from let alone cite a source.

[kerryk]

On 25 Jan 1942, the Thai Government declared war on Britain and the USA, claiming that the British and the Americans had invaded Thailand by sending troops and airplanes across the Thai border to bomb and shoot at the unarmed Thai people

The USA did not declare war against Thailand, but Britain did on 6 Feb, along with countries in the Commonwealth: South Africa on 11 Feb, Australia on 2 Mar, and New Zealand on 16 Mar.

Why is this on topic?

I think it is important that Thais know Americans like them more than Brits or Aussies.

In fact since the Thais never surrendered (Oh, they did some kind of, I didn't really mean to declare war thing but not unconditional surrender.) to the UK and the UK declared war on Thailand I guess they are still technically at war.

Since the US didn't declare war no surrender was necessary.

[Richard4849]

Wife's opinion - whales and dolphins are fish - The sun goes around the earth.

There are more but these 2 stand out to me.

A Thai English language teacher told one of her students not to ask Farang questions about English. The qustion was about an item of clothing and it's correct name. It was a multi choice question. The daft thing is all the answers were right, it depended if you were a Brit, Australian, or American. We told the kid it was a jumper, the teacher insisted it was a sweater. The other 2 answers were jersey and pullover

The first one can be explained. It's a linguistic issue.

Pla = fish

Whale = pla waan

Dolphin = pla loma

Tuna = pla tuna

Mackerel = pla thuu

All are "pla".

Do you know the word for "mammal" in Thai? Neither do I -- so that's probably where the confusion arises. Of course dolphin and whale are "pla" -- that's what they're called!

[cmsally]

On 25 Jan 1942, the Thai Government declared war on Britain and the USA, claiming that the British and the Americans had invaded Thailand by sending troops and airplanes across the Thai border to bomb and shoot at the unarmed Thai people

The USA did not declare war against Thailand, but Britain did on 6 Feb, along with countries in the Commonwealth: South Africa on 11 Feb, Australia on 2 Mar, and New Zealand on 16 Mar.

Why is this on topic?

I think it is important that Thais know Americans like them more than Brits or Aussies.

In fact since the Thais never surrendered (Oh, they did some kind of, I didn't really mean to declare war thing but not unconditional surrender.) to the UK and the UK declared war on Thailand I guess they are still technically at war.

Since the US didn't declare war no surrender was necessary.

I think the reason that USA didn't declare war was that the Thai ambassador to Washington - Seri Pramoj - refused to deliver the declaration of war. He went on to head the Seri Thai movement.

[SteeleJoe]

On 25 Jan 1942, the Thai Government declared war on Britain and the USA, claiming that the British and the Americans had invaded Thailand by sending troops and airplanes across the Thai border to bomb and shoot at the unarmed Thai people

The USA did not declare war against Thailand, but Britain did on 6 Feb, along with countries in the Commonwealth: South Africa on 11 Feb, Australia on 2 Mar, and New Zealand on 16 Mar...

Since the US didn't declare war no surrender was necessary.

Indeed. Moreover, the British (and the French) very much wanted to punish Thailand after the war. To an extent that would have been, arguably, disastrous for Thailand. The US, fully exercising it's new position as The Big Dog, said no.

(But in a slightly related turn of events, went along with Europeans continuing with colonialism in spite of previous opposition, and thus acceded to the British ushering the French back into Indochina -- though primarily because of a desire to keep them on our side in Europe against the USSR).

[Mosha]

As for the war, there was a camp in La-Un. It held Tamils and Malay, along with captured Thai resistance fighters. I believe they worked on the Chumpon La-Un railway line.

[SteeleJoe]

On 25 Jan 1942, the Thai Government declared war on Britain and the USA, claiming that the British and the Americans had invaded Thailand by sending troops and airplanes across the Thai border to bomb and shoot at the unarmed Thai people

The USA did not declare war against Thailand, but Britain did on 6 Feb, along with countries in the Commonwealth: South Africa on 11 Feb, Australia on 2 Mar, and New Zealand on 16 Mar.

Why is this on topic?

I think it is important that Thais know Americans like them more than Brits or Aussies.

In fact since the Thais never surrendered (Oh, they did some kind of, I didn't really mean to declare war thing but not unconditional surrender.) to the UK and the UK declared war on Thailand I guess they are still technically at war.

Since the US didn't declare war no surrender was necessary.

I think the reason that USA didn't declare war was that the Thai ambassador to Washington - Seri Pramoj - refused to deliver the declaration of war. He went on to head the Seri Thai movement.

I'm sure you can see that it's not quite that simple -- if a country wants to go to war, it can't be stopped by an ambassador refusing to hand over a paper. Why have a war with the Thais if we don't need one? Better to have some allies there(in the form of an underground -- limited in effectiveness as the Seri Thai may have been) and use the Thais financial resources in the US.

And while Seni was instrumental but I'm not sure I'd call him the head. And there was more than one Seri Thai. The Brits had theirs too.

[kerryk]

I think if you look again you will realize that the death statistics of the railway do not mention Thais. That is why every casualty figure for WW II in Thailand is around 7 or 8,000 people. If you look up the railway projects you will find the Japanese employed Thai engineers for the survey work. Thais got paid to work for the Japanese. If you know of any please post a link where Thai forced labor and Thai deaths are quoted. It says slave labor but the slaves were not Thai. Almost all of the disputes between the Thais and Japanese concerned money. January 1942 Thailand declared war on Britain and the United States,

I'm pretty sure there were some instances of Thais being forced laborers but in proportionately very low numbers...but I can't recall where I got that from let alone cite a source.

http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/camplists/death_rr/movements_1.html Shows the workers used on the Death Railway.

The Japanese built two railways. One to Burma and the other the Chumphon–Kraburi (Kra Canal Railway) extending from Chumphon station to

Kraburi station in Ranong.

The agreement to build both railroads was signed on September 16, 1942 by Field Marshal Pibulsongkram, the Thai Supreme Commander. The Japanese army to used land for the construction free of charge; Japan had to cooperate with Thailand in finding mechanics, laborers, and equipment for the construction.

The Japanese army hired local Thai workers in Chumphon and Ranong who wanted to be hired because of the high pay of 1.20–1.50 baht per day. Howwever, as laborers were still in short supply, the Japanese army asked Thai officers to find more workers and was willing to pay 2.50–3.00 baht per day. Because of the higher pay workers from other provinces such as Trang, Surat Thani, Phatthalung, Songkhla, Phetchaburi, Nakhon Pathom, Pathum Thani, Ayutthaya, and Nakhon Nayok travelled to Chumphon and Ranong until the railway was finished.

You can find all the above information if you google Kra Canal Railway.

Edited September 18, 2011 by kerryk

[SteeleJoe]

Look at it how you like, if it was worth having the French Collonials would have kept it back then..

Thailand didnt have much to offer so ,the Chins took it over without a fight.. Who paid for the Monument Farmers or Wheeler Dealers.

Missed this one.

The Chins? Who are they? They took over what? And who did Thailand not have much to offer to?

The French had little choice. They were under the Vichy government who had a tenuous hold at best on their colonial territory and had no choice but to acquiesce to the Japanese (as they did in all of Indochina) -- who gave the Thais what they wanted (arguably one of the reasons the Thais allied with them -- the chance to throw their weight around).

[kerryk]

On 25 Jan 1942, the Thai Government declared war on Britain and the USA, claiming that the British and the Americans had invaded Thailand by sending troops and airplanes across the Thai border to bomb and shoot at the unarmed Thai people

The USA did not declare war against Thailand, but Britain did on 6 Feb, along with countries in the Commonwealth: South Africa on 11 Feb, Australia on 2 Mar, and New Zealand on 16 Mar.

Why is this on topic?

I think it is important that Thais know Americans like them more than Brits or Aussies.

In fact since the Thais never surrendered (Oh, they did some kind of, I didn't really mean to declare war thing but not unconditional surrender.) to the UK and the UK declared war on Thailand I guess they are still technically at war.

Since the US didn't declare war no surrender was necessary.

I think the reason that USA didn't declare war was that the Thai ambassador to Washington - Seri Pramoj - refused to deliver the declaration of war. He went on to head the Seri Thai movement.

I'm sure you can see that it's not quite that simple -- if a country wants to go to war, it can't be stopped by an ambassador refusing to hand over a paper. Why have a war with the Thais if we don't need one? Better to have some allies there(in the form of an underground -- limited in effectiveness as the Seri Thai may have been) and use the Thais financial resources in the US.

And while Seni was instrumental but I'm not sure I'd call him the head. And there was more than one Seri Thai. The Brits had theirs too.

Quite right. The ambassador story is a marketing tool. Surprising how much traction it has had over the years. One merely has to think about it for a moment. Thailand allowed Japan land access for the troops that defeated Singapore. How happy can the Allies have been at the time?

[SteeleJoe]

I think if you look again you will realize that the death statistics of the railway do not mention Thais. That is why every casualty figure for WW II in Thailand is around 7 or 8,000 people. If you look up the railway projects you will find the Japanese employed Thai engineers for the survey work. Thais got paid to work for the Japanese. If you know of any please post a link where Thai forced labor and Thai deaths are quoted. It says slave labor but the slaves were not Thai. Almost all of the disputes between the Thais and Japanese concerned money. January 1942 Thailand declared war on Britain and the United States,

I'm pretty sure there were some instances of Thais being forced laborers but in proportionately very low numbers...but I can't recall where I got that from let alone cite a source.

http://www.mansell.c...ovements_1.html Shows the workers used on the Death Railway.

The Japanese built two railways. One to Burma and the other the Chumphon–Kraburi (Kra Canal Railway) extending from Chumphon station to

Kraburi station in Ranong.

The agreement to build both railroads was signed on September 16, 1942 by Field Marshal Pibulsongkram, the Thai Supreme Commander. The Japanese army to used land for the construction free of charge; Japan had to cooperate with Thailand in finding mechanics, laborers, and equipment for the construction.

The Japanese army hired local Thai workers in Chumphon and Ranong who wanted to be hired because of the high pay of 1.20–1.50 baht per day. Howwever, as laborers were still in short supply, the Japanese army asked Thai officers to find more workers and was willing to pay 2.50–3.00 baht per day. Because of the higher pay workers from other provinces such as Trang, Surat Thani, Phatthalung, Songkhla, Phetchaburi, Nakhon Pathom, Pathum Thani, Ayutthaya, and Nakhon Nayok travelled to Chumphon and Ranong until the railway was finished.

You can find all the above information if you google Kra Canal Railway.

Thanks. Good stuff but I'm aware of all that. I still cautiously (and without substantiation atm) maintain that some Thais were punitively used as forced labor by the Japanese.

[SteeleJoe]

Quite right. The ambassador story is a marketing tool. Surprising how much traction it has had over the years. One merely has to think about it for a moment. Thailand allowed Japan land access for the troops that defeated Singapore. How happy can the Allies have been at the time?

Indeed. It is so simplistic and illogical and yet it's so widely accepted -- that is surprising.

For all we know, Cordell Hull said to him. "If I were you I would take that thing back. Here's what we'll offer you: you get to go along with the Japanese and avoid the unpleasantness with them that your neighbors have had -- you can't beat them anyway and we certainly aren't even close to ready to kick them out -- and in the meantime you help us out during and after the war by...in return, we'll look after you even if your on the losing side". Or maybe it was something like that but it was Seni's idea. Or Phibun's.) And then the Thais proceed to have their cake and eat it too.

Edited September 18, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[kerryk]

Quite right. The ambassador story is a marketing tool. Surprising how much traction it has had over the years. One merely has to think about it for a moment. Thailand allowed Japan land access for the troops that defeated Singapore. How happy can the Allies have been at the time?

Indeed. It is so simplistic and illogical and yet it's so widely accepted -- that is surprising.

For all we know, Cordell Hull said to him. "If I were you I would take that thing back. Here's what we'll offer you: you get to go along with the Japanese and avoid the unpleasantness with them that your neighbors have had -- you can't beat them anyway and we certainly aren't even close to ready to kick them out -- and in the meantime you help us out during and after the war by...in return, we'll look after you even if your on the losing side". Or maybe it was something like that but it was Seni's idea. Or Phibun's.) And then the Thais proceed to have their cake and eat it too.

I think anyone can figure it out. Follow the money. Thailand assets in the US frozen and few of the diplomats or students in the US went back to Thailand when they had the chance during the exchange of diplomats.

The Thai embassy gave the Thai students in the US their money. So a lot of well connected kids were out of cash and a lot of well connected diplomats.

What's a fellow to do. Some of history is in books and some is logic. I have read a couple of books recently.

Siam becomes Thailand: a story of intrigue

 By Judith A. Stowe

Thailand and the Japanese presence, 1941-45

 By Thamsook Numnonda

I learned quite a lot I didn't know. GF thinks I am a bit nuts reading about Thai history. That does tell you something about this topic

.

Thailand did have a plan for fighting the Japanese. Move the capital to Phetchabun and fight them from the mountains. The communists fought the Thai army there for 10 years in the 1970's.

Thailand only had a population of 12 million during WW II and a standing army of 50,000. The Japanese rarely had more than 50,000 troops in Thailand. How long could 50,000 have lasted in the mountains? The communists lasted for 10 years. Thailand could have influenced the outcome of the war. They chose not to. And they choose not to remember it very well either. It is easier to manage a country when the citizens know little about the outside world or history.

[chiangmaibruce]

On 25 Jan 1942, the Thai Government declared war on Britain and the USA, claiming that the British and the Americans had invaded Thailand by sending troops and airplanes across the Thai border to bomb and shoot at the unarmed Thai people

Perhaps they were referring to this incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Krohcol

[StreetCowboy]

Occasionally, I come across some Americans who still think Taiwan and Thailand are the same country. I suppose that it is not only Thai people who don't know much about the outside world.

,

education ain't what it used to be that's for sure, doesn't seem to matter which country you choose.

You're thinking of nostalgia. Nostalgia's crap, nowadays. Old people don't know they when they're well off nowadays, not like when I was young.

SC

[SteeleJoe]

[Thaddeus]

Pla = fish

Whale = pla waan

Dolphin = pla loma

Tuna = pla tuna

Mackerel = pla thuu

All are "pla".

Even in English, there are no such things as fish.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/qi/5514118/QI-quite-interesting-facts-about-fish.html

[garrfeild]

Occasionally, I come across some Americans who still think Taiwan and Thailand are the same country. I suppose that it is not only Thai people who don't know much about the outside world.

,

education ain't what it used to be that's for sure, doesn't seem to matter which country you choose.

You're thinking of nostalgia. Nostalgia's crap, nowadays. Old people don't know they when they're well off nowadays, not like when I was young.

SC

The only real education is that of the university of life, they don't teach that in school.