Great Comment About Teaching

[johnnyk]

From a teaching friend :

let's just say I lower the bar every week, and most students

continue to bang their heads on it. Only some notice, however.

[re_fuse]

From a teaching friend :

let's just say I lower the bar every week, and most students

continue to bang their heads on it.  Only some notice, however.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That made my day

[gisele]

Some years ago, I was teaching in Ontario, Canada and the brilliant slogan the school board came up with was:

"Success for every child" . It sounds nice but as we know, the reality is otherwise,

so a colleague and I had our own motto:

"We will lower our standards until there is success for every child"

[Dr. Burrito]

By a good friend of mine, long-time Thailand resident.

'Any teacher here not working at an international school, that stays..., is here for the kief.'

Said whilst sitting at Nana, looking at an English teacher I know making a bar-fine deal.

[Ijustwannateach]

As tempting as it is to start a debate on the above, I'm simply going to suggest that it's odd that although *you* and *your friend* were there, it's the *teacher* who somehow gets pointed out in a negative way. Other than that, we seem to be heading

[Sexy Beast]

When a friend of mine was working at Scared Heart In Bangkok the DOS [Little Hitler, his words not mine] said 'don't bother failing students because the Thai teachers will change the grade and pass them anyway'.

Edited December 7, 2005 by Sexy Beast

[Ajarn]

When a friend of mine was working at Scared Heart In Bangkok the DOS [Little Hitler, his words not mine] said 'don't bother failing students because the Thai teachers will change the grade and pass them anyway'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Off topic, but that statement is not true. That's one 'power' a teacher has; that their signature on a grade form means student grades can only be changed by that teacher... Unless they've recently changed the law

BTW, I'm a former DOS (1997) at Sacred Heart

[OlRedEyes]

Tried the teaching bit a few years back. All I can say is I understand why farang teachers here tend to end up in bars a lot....

[paulfr]

When a friend of mine was working at Scared Heart In Bangkok the DOS [Little Hitler, his words not mine] said 'don't bother failing students because the Thai teachers will change the grade and pass them anyway'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Off topic, but that statement is not true. That's one 'power' a teacher has; that their signature on a grade form means student grades can only be changed by that teacher... Unless they've recently changed the law

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Ajarn, but you cannot know everything.

My Thai admin instructed me at the end of last term to change the grade of several students. It is really spitting hairs to say she did not do it. It seems unhappy parents are not something Thai admins will risk as they have the money ....at least for private schools that is.

Cheers and a positive attitude, in spite of the evidence and reality, go a long way toward survival in Education here.

[Ijustwannateach]

One of the best, and probably oldest, student-related lines applies to Thailand and many other countries, too:

You can lead a horse to water, but....

"Steven"

[Ajarn]

When a friend of mine was working at Scared Heart In Bangkok the DOS [Little Hitler, his words not mine] said 'don't bother failing students because the Thai teachers will change the grade and pass them anyway'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Off topic, but that statement is not true. That's one 'power' a teacher has; that their signature on a grade form means student grades can only be changed by that teacher... Unless they've recently changed the law

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Ajarn, but you cannot know everything.

My Thai admin instructed me at the end of last term to change the grade of several students. It is really spitting hairs to say she did not do it. It seems unhappy parents are not something Thai admins will risk as they have the money ....at least for private schools that is.

Cheers and a positive attitude, in spite of the evidence and reality, go a long way toward survival in Education here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but I've never professed to know everything, but I do know this law, and have had a few battles over it. If you want to cave in to your bosses, that your choice- but you don't have to

Edited December 7, 2005 by Ajarn

[mbkudu]

Sorry, but I've never professed to know everything, but I do know this law, and have had a few battles over it.

'Law'? There are lots of laws in Thailand. I think there's even one that says motorists are supposed to stop at red traffic lights.

[Ajarn]

Sorry, but I've never professed to know everything, but I do know this law, and have had a few battles over it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'Law'? There are lots of laws in Thailand. I think there's even one that says motorists are supposed to stop at red traffic lights.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not the same law, obviously

[bluebear]

Sorry, but I've never professed to know everything, but I do know this law, and have had a few battles over it. If you want to cave in to your bosses, that your choice- but you don't have to 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeh right. We dont have to - unless we want constant battles, sudden disappearance of goodwill, schedules being changed, petty offences suddenly being picked up on...........

you need to go back to a dose of reality

[Ajarn]

Sorry, but I've never professed to know everything, but I do know this law, and have had a few battles over it. If you want to cave in to your bosses, that your choice- but you don't have to  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeh right. We dont have to - unless we want constant battles, sudden disappearance of goodwill, schedules being changed, petty offences suddenly being picked up on...........

you need to go back to a dose of reality

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe you need some bigger cajones

And some more support

Edited December 8, 2005 by Ajarn

[Ijustwannateach]

As I understand it from schools (primary and secondary, NOT university- it's an important distinction!) for which I have worked, the students "must" pass. I do not know if this is the actual law, the defacto Ministry policy, or simply the school's policy to avoid trouble from the parents and/or Ministry- I have received different versions of the story from different Thai people I have asked. I *do* know that any teacher who wants to fight this policy in most schools is going to be in deep trouble from almost all sectors: the school administration at all levels, the parents, the students, and most likely many of the other "good" teachers who do what the school tells them and don't rock the boat.

Illegal or not, I have not seen any school or personally met any teacher whose failing grade would stand for long. Again, I don't know if it's law, Ministry policy, or school policy, but most schools force the teacher to "retest" a student until he/she passes. Usually this means in practice that the teacher who wishes to fail a student loses his vacation time to "retesting" and is thereby indirectly punished along with the student. I suppose in theory this "retesting" could continue forever, but since many of the students who fail have been doing so for years (for example, in the 8th grade and cannot do single-digit arithmetic operations) there is no hope that they will catch up in any reasonable period of time. The teachers in this case usually wise up and give the student the minimum failing grade (of 50% for the term) which has become for all intents and purposes the defacto failing grade of the Thai educational system.

Ajarn, your "buck the system" attitude would simply not succeed for most foreigners at most Thai schools now, at least in Bangkok. Foreign teachers are far too vulnerable (especially TEFL teachers) and have trouble hanging on to their jobs, staying legal, and being treated even up to the minimum conditions of their "contracts" as it is, without attempting a one-man crusade against the status quo. In the rare cases that I *do* know where a foreigner failed a student and refused to change the grade, someone in the school administration simply changed the marks on the paper, illegal or not- and I haven't heard of *anyone* even trying to sue over the matter, much less winning and surviving in the same job. I do know of one teacher who fails the students and simply doesn't sign the papers, so that if the administration wants to pass them then THEY can write the new marks and sign it themselves- a small gesture, but perhaps important for some people.

Cojones are fine for people with lots of savings or independent income, but they're not a practical thing for survival in Thailand for most TEFLers.

And, um, aren't we getting a bit...

?

Not that I'm sure I understand what the topic originally was...

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

We're not off topic if the topic is how low the minimal standard is in Thai schools.

Ajarn, it's nice that you had the right deal in one school in 1997. But in two years as a teacher in northern Thailand, I never imagined that my marks would be the final marks. I told the students, "This is the grade I give you, on the papers I give back to you. I do not know your final grade." What about the final math exam, where Wa***na got 0% of my exam where he had to figure out an answer, and he got 43% on the multiple guess test of the Thai math teacher? I'll bet he passed, although there was no academic reason to pass him.

It's a bit easier to talk about cojones when you're the DOS or the outspoken US Ambassador to the United Nations. Otherwise, I just check in the mirror now and then.

Edited December 8, 2005 by PeaceBlondie

[kat]

When a friend of mine was working at Scared Heart In Bangkok the DOS [Little Hitler, his words not mine] said 'don't bother failing students because the Thai teachers will change the grade and pass them anyway'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Off topic, but that statement is not true. That's one 'power' a teacher has; that their signature on a grade form means student grades can only be changed by that teacher... Unless they've recently changed the law

BTW, I'm a former DOS (1997) at Sacred Heart

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When a friend of mine was working at Scared Heart In Bangkok the DOS [Little Hitler, his words not mine] said 'don't bother failing students because the Thai teachers will change the grade and pass them anyway'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Off topic, but that statement is not true. That's one 'power' a teacher has; that their signature on a grade form means student grades can only be changed by that teacher... Unless they've recently changed the law

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Ajarn, but you cannot know everything.

My Thai admin instructed me at the end of last term to change the grade of several students. It is really spitting hairs to say she did not do it. It seems unhappy parents are not something Thai admins will risk as they have the money ....at least for private schools that is.

Cheers and a positive attitude, in spite of the evidence and reality, go a long way toward survival in Education here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but I've never professed to know everything, but I do know this law, and have had a few battles over it. If you want to cave in to your bosses, that your choice- but you don't have to

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but I've never professed to know everything, but I do know this law, and have had a few battles over it. If you want to cave in to your bosses, that your choice- but you don't have to  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeh right. We dont have to - unless we want constant battles, sudden disappearance of goodwill, schedules being changed, petty offences suddenly being picked up on...........

you need to go back to a dose of reality

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Ajarn, but I think you're in a state of denial. Every teaching job I have held, and every teacher at both government and elite Thai private schools - and I mean everyone - knows that a student cannot fail. At the Thai elite schools that employ qualified teachers, the students are simply retested and tutored by the teacher until they pass.

At government schools, there is no doubt that failing grades and any other grades are changed by the Thai teacher.

[Sexy Beast]

Although it was unintentional of me to open this little can worms but I think that most of us know that the ESL industry in Thailand / Asia is a grand money making scheme and we all contribute to it by being on the school’s payrolls.

I have taught voluntary before for a couple of charitable organizations and sometimes still do. However much we all love teaching would we teach for free on a full-time basis? I know I wouldn’t in the sense that I couldn’t afford to.

The English Language is a product to be marketed and the schools are the sales staff cashing in the profits.

[Ajarn]

Sorry Ajarn, but I think you're in a state of denial.  Every teaching job I have held, and every teacher at both government and elite Thai private schools - and I mean everyone - knows that a student cannot fail.  At the Thai elite schools that employ qualified teachers, the students are simply retested and tutored by the teacher until they pass.

At government schools, there is no doubt that failing grades and any other grades are changed by the Thai teacher.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many years experience in teaching do yo have? One? Two? I have more than 15 years here in Thailand. We're not talking about students failing a grade, but a course. For you to say that a Thai student cannot fail a class is ludicrous...

I take my grades as seriously as the student does, and there is nobody who knows better than me what grade my student should receive. Given that, I work hard to make sure my students don't fail, but when I feel that student has show me that they can't pass the class, they don't pass. Doesn't happen much, but it does happen..

Teachers who change their grades under pressure from bosses clearly don't value those grades, and I think that's the wrong message to give to students- and bosses. Why should teachers bother to give grades at all, under your system? Admins can simply give whatever they want to...

Imagine the students knowing that you changed their grade under pressure. What motivation to learn or even study is that? Again, a very poor message to give students...

And it's a message that I refuse to give. As I said, I've had a couple of battles with unprofessional Admins, but they know the law, too. Experienced Thai teachers never get this kind of pressure because they know what's up, also. And they DO fail students...

I think it's a shame that foreign teachers get this kind of pressure, but I strongly feel it should be resisted. Understandibly, some teachers give in...

At government schools, there is no doubt that failing grades and any other grades are changed by the Thai teacher

You cannot speak for every teacher any more than I can, but I'd say it's extremely doubtfull that any teacher would take the responsibility for changing another teacher's grades.

[Sporting Dog]

I teach in an EP and have been told ALL students WILL progress to the next Matayom next year - isn't there a 'no student will be left behind' policy from the government/ministry?

[kat]

Sorry Ajarn, but I think you're in a state of denial.  Every teaching job I have held, and every teacher at both government and elite Thai private schools - and I mean everyone - knows that a student cannot fail.  At the Thai elite schools that employ qualified teachers, the students are simply retested and tutored by the teacher until they pass.

At government schools, there is no doubt that failing grades and any other grades are changed by the Thai teacher.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many years experience in teaching do yo have? One? Two? I have more than 15 years here in Thailand. We're not talking about students failing a grade, but a course. For you to say that a Thai student cannot fail a class is ludicrous...

I take my grades as seriously as the student does, and there is nobody who knows better than me what grade my student should receive. Given that, I work hard to make sure my students don't fail, but when I feel that student has show me that they can't pass the class, they don't pass. Doesn't happen much, but it does happen..

Teachers who change their grades under pressure from bosses clearly don't value those grades, and I think that's the wrong message to give to students- and bosses. Why should teachers bother to give grades at all, under your system? Admins can simply give whatever they want to...

Imagine the students knowing that you changed their grade under pressure. What motivation to learn or even study is that? Again, a very poor message to give students...

And it's a message that I refuse to give. As I said, I've had a couple of battles with unprofessional Admins, but they know the law, too. Experienced Thai teachers never get this kind of pressure because they know what's up, also. And they DO fail students...

I think it's a shame that foreign teachers get this kind of pressure, but I strongly feel it should be resisted. Understandibly, some teachers give in...

At government schools, there is no doubt that failing grades and any other grades are changed by the Thai teacher

You cannot speak for every teacher any more than I can, but I'd say it's extremely doubtfull that any teacher would take the responsibility for changing another teacher's grades.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You think that what I'm saying is ludicrous? You've worked here for 15 years and think this is an outrageous statement? I think you are delusional. Look around, you are the only person denying this fact. You state the facts of law as if law is a fact here.

I work with "real" teachers, and it is the same. They have to tutor the kids until they pass. So, that is not changing the grade per se, but it definitely reflects a no-fail policy. I know one teacher that had to tutor a student for a year.

In the government schools this policy is far more blunt; they simply change the grades.

[joe beets]

(psst.. it's not just the gov't schools...)

jb

[EVO]

Fact: All students must pass, however it is achieved. This has been the case in all schools i have worked in except one. In that school, after consulting with the parents concerned (who were foreigners anyway), we kept 2 or 3 students back to repeat the year.

Ajarn, i understand that you have been teaching for over 15 years, which makes you a lot more experienced than I. However, what of that student who joins the EP in grade 8 from a Thai school upcountry somewhere into a class where all the other students have been in the EP for al least a year, sometimes all 8? Can they possible pass the course? I doubt it very much. They can improve massively, and i for one would take that effort to be a major part of their score, but to actually score over 50% on the exam? I doubt it very much, but again, they still do get a pass grade.