Israel's Netanyahu says Palestinian statehood bid at UN will fail

[geriatrickid]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is EDL? Extra Dense Lipids?

[Jiu-Jitsu]

It's always amusing to see the rubbish quoted by the Pro-Israelis. Pure propaganda. About how they were attacked.... In fact it was the other way around. They launched the attacks in the Six Day War. The country was begat of terrorism.

Many of them have been brainwashed themselves and are quick to blame the other side. They are so blind.

[Scott]

Again, the point is about the OP, not about the posters. The OP is also NOT directly about religion. Criticism of Muslims/Islam or Judaism/Jews will probably get your post deleted.

[Steely Dan]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is EDL? Extra Dense Lipids?

English Defense league. They would be somewhat akin to your SIOA (Stop the Islamisation of America), however as Europe is still in denial about the epic fail of so called multi-culturalism they are falsely painted as neo-Nazi. I'm sure racist elements will try to infiltrate them from time to time, (though they are apparently thrown out when discovered)

However to paraphrase Sam Harris (Author of 'The end of Faith') The only people at the moment talking accurately about radical Islam are the far right.

[govekidao]

Another wonderfully evasive post deferring all blame to Islam and its client states and refusing to acknowledge, debunk or rationalise the catalogue of ethical in-discrepancies listed in my posts. Simply claiming to be the lesser of two evils is not much of a justification, I guess it does provide for a convenient smoke screen.

As for the question Dan, yes I value all of those things, and indeed my stated stance of disliking all organised religion is indicative of my disdain for these traits which are inherent in all of the abrahamic faiths. As an example, were Clinton and another women (forgot her name) photoshopped out of the 'Bin Laden assassination' situation room pictures ?

[Jingthing]

Excuse me, but could we please possibly get back to the topic?

Israel's Netanyahu says Palestinian statehood bid at UN will fail

I don't recognize the recent posts as being related to that at all.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Jingthing

[GentlemanJim]

Dave

This is what we are up against !

[Steely Dan]

Another wonderfully evasive post deferring all blame to Islam and its client states and refusing to acknowledge, debunk or rationalise the catalogue of ethical in-discrepancies listed in my posts. Simply claiming to be the lesser of two evils is not much of a justification, I guess it does provide for a convenient smoke screen.

As for the question Dan, yes I value all of those things, and indeed my stated stance of disliking all organised religion is indicative of my disdain for these traits which are inherent in all of the abrahamic faiths. As an example, were Clinton and another women (forgot her name) photoshopped out of the 'Bin Laden assassination' situation room pictures ?

The whole point is I refuse to follow the narrative where every Israeli action is held up to the microscope by hypocrites standing neck deep in toxic sludge. There is a saying that democracies seldom if ever go to war with one another. Israel for all your distortions is indeed a democracy, when her neighbors become democracies there will probably be peace. Until that time we could trade blame and counter-accusation till the end of time, but only when religion becomes subordinate to law and government will the root cause be removed.

P.S This dispute is not about land, it never was, the Arab states have 650 times the Area Israel does, it is not about right or wrong, Arabs have slaughtered one another by the thousands with scarcely any outside interest. It is about religion twinned with left wing ideology that's the root cause.

[govekidao]

<br>An avatar is not a subject. <br>

It least its not meant to be, however I fail to see how you can deny your avatar betrays a subjective political view that seems to underpin the majority of your social commentary; commentary that in itself contains inflammatory conflation between islam and islamism, and justifies that conflation as relevant to the issues at hand.

Thats why we're off topic, because when posed conundrums about the failures of the Israeli side to play fair in the creation of a Palestinian state, Islamism and by your logic Islam is deferred to as a default inhibiter without any attempt to address the issues being presented. How is it possible to stay on topic in light of such evasive logic ?

*** edit ***

hyprocrite knee deep in sludge ? lol, that is priceless, not to mention flippant and once again totally evasive.

The presence of democracy does not explain the absence of ethics, if anything it adds to the paradox. Continue to present this as an argument about solely about religion if you wish, thats not something the organisation whose charter you chose to reference accepts, indeed nobody of genuine independence accepts.

I'm out of here, but as a closing thought - Israels' Channel 2 I think put this argument the best

http://www.youtube.com/embed/M9Sdkps0Quo

Edited September 21, 2011 by govekidao

[Steely Dan]

An avatar is not a subject.

It least its not meant to be, however I fail to see how you can deny your avatar betrays a subjective political view that seems to underpin the majority of your social commentary; commentary that in itself contains inflammatory conflation between islam and islamism, and justifies that conflation as relevant to the issues at hand.

Thats why we're off topic, because when posed conundrums about the failures of the Israeli side to play fair in the creation of a Palestinian state, Islamism and by your logic Islam is deferred to as a default inhibiter without any attempt to address the issues being presented. How is it possible to stay on topic in light of such evasive logic ?

You are so far off topic it's untrue. Briefly, my avatar shows my belief that freedom of expression is what defines democracy and those who try to suppress it through violence and intimidation need to be opposed for their totalitarian stance. Over 100 people died in the aftermath of the cartoons being published in Denmark. Not many people know this but 10 of the 12 were previously published in Egypt with no outcry. Then an Iman in Denmark added two far more insulting images to the original cartoons before going on a rabble rousing tour of the middle east. The agenda is clear to stifle western freedom of expression through intimidation.

As for the rest of your comments read the Hamas charter and see how intimately it's philosophy is tied to religion. Look at Palestinian media and you will find the same language of God given birthright being stolen. Don't be so naive of course religion is intimately connected to this issue.

P.S As an afterthought it's a shame the Palestinians aren't Ahmadiyya Muslims as they renounce violence and strive for a modern interpretation of 7th century scripture.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Steely Dan

[GentlemanJim]

Freedom of Expression has seen the lives of many servicemen and women die to ensure it's existence. It is a commonly misunderstood term. Freedom of expression comes with responsibility.

Steely Dan

These people claim freedom of expression

Edited September 21, 2011 by GentlemanJim

[up-country_sinclair]

Excuse me, but could we please possibly get back to the topic?

Israel's Netanyahu says Palestinian statehood bid at UN will fail

Perhaps a better headline would be:

Israel's Netanyahu says Palestinian statehood bid at UN will fail, but is privately wetting himself because Palestinians are very likely to achieve non-member status which will allow them to bring Israel in front of the International Criminal Court.

OK, maybe that headline is too long.

Edited September 21, 2011 by up-country_sinclair

[up-country_sinclair]

This dispute is not about land, it never was

Even with your highly biased blinkers you have to realize this is an absurd statement.

And you claim to be informed on this topic? Oy vey!

Edited September 21, 2011 by up-country_sinclair

[Steely Dan]

hyprocrite knee deep in sludge ? lol, that is priceless, not to mention flippant and once again totally evasive.

The presence of democracy does not explain the absence of ethics, if anything it adds to the paradox. Continue to present this as an argument about solely about religion if you wish, thats not something the organisation whose charter you chose to reference accepts, indeed nobody of genuine independence accepts.

I'm out of here, but as a closing thought - Israels' Channel 2 I think put this argument the best

http://www.youtube.com/embed/M9Sdkps0Quo

Nice of you to finish back on topic, almost. Absence of ethics? What you mean like treating seriously ill Palestinians in Israeli hospitals, sometimes even those who survived their own suicide bombing attempt. Absence of ethics such as allowing freedom of religious expression for Israels 20% Arab population, in stark contrast to how Copts are treated in Egypt or how Christians have been driven out of Nazareth or Bethlehem.

Israel is far from perfect, but a lot of it's shortcomings are due to it's neighbours. If the Israeli population was transplanted to a Country in western Europe you would scarcely have any problems whatsoever compared to now.

(God) knows I often wish the Jews had been settled somewhere in South America, but that would be denying their religious history which has kept them together as a people through thousands of years of persecution.

[Steely Dan]

This dispute is not about land, it never was

Even with your highly biased blinkers you have to realize this is an absurd statement.

And you claim to be informed on this topic? Oy vey!

There wasn't much of a fuss made about Palestinian self determination from 1948 to 1967 when Egypt ruled Gaza and Jordan the west bank was there.

[Scott]

This thread is getting off track. I will close it for clean up.

The thread is not about Islam.

[Steely Dan]

Freedom of Expression has seen the lives of many servicemen and women die to ensure it's existence. It is a commonly misunderstood term. Freedom of expression comes with responsibility.

Steely Dan

These people claim freedom of expression

Ok, rights with responsibilities, here goes. The group in your video are clearly obnoxious to our 21st century western eyes. They should be allowed to write what they believe, but not in my opinion cause gratuitous unavoidable upset by their proximity to who they affect. We do however live in the 21st century so the internet by definition is a tool of that age, so saying Jehovah or drawing him, which would have got you stoned two millenia ago are no longer relevant. The fact 100 people died in the aftermath of the Danish cartoon publication is a worrying phenomenon for our times and needs to be faced up to or else the implication is Muslims are expected to never update their jurisprudence from the 7th century with calamitous implications for coexistence with other peoples.

Anyway I have changed my Avatar - an atheist logo with a star of David within which I like. I changed it as I have no desire to be the subject of these threads and I'm sure the mods would identify with that.

[Scott]

off-topic posts deleted as well as quotes without citing source.

No need to give a history lesson, either.

Please stay on-topic.

[coma]

Freedom of Expression has seen the lives of many servicemen and women die to ensure it's existence. It is a commonly misunderstood term. Freedom of expression comes with responsibility.

Steely Dan

These people claim freedom of expression

Ok, rights with responsibilities, here goes. The group in your video are clearly obnoxious to our 21st century western eyes. They should be allowed to write what they believe, but not in my opinion cause gratuitous unavoidable upset by their proximity to who they affect. We do however live in the 21st century so the internet by definition is a tool of that age, so saying Jehovah or drawing him, which would have got you stoned two millenia ago are no longer relevant. The fact 100 people died in the aftermath of the Danish cartoon publication is a worrying phenomenon for our times and needs to be faced up to or else the implication is Muslims are expected to never update their jurisprudence from the 7th century with calamitous implications for coexistence with other peoples.

Anyway I have changed my Avatar - an atheist logo with a star of David within which I like. I changed it as I have no desire to be the subject of these threads and I'm sure the mods would identify with that.

Nice avatar Dan.

Edited September 21, 2011 by coma

[GentlemanJim]

didn't see that Scott. Thought I had done something to delete it.

Edited September 21, 2011 by GentlemanJim

[Scott]

Quote and response to deleted post removed.

[cdnvic]

I realize that this is a passionate topic for many of you, but considering none of us have any actual influence in what will eventually happen, could we try being a bit more civil to each other? I'd rather it be voluntary than enforced.

[Jingthing]

President Obama speaking live RIGHT NOW to the UN on the USA position AGAINST the Abbas led UN statehood recognition bid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/live/video-1?hpid=z1

[Jiu-Jitsu]

President Obama speaking live RIGHT NOW to the UN on the USA position AGAINST the Abbas led UN statehood recognition bid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/live/video-1?hpid=z1

Missed it. Can you summarise?

Remebering that this is the 'moderate' Abbas. The one who fought against Hamas and who willingly negotiated with the Israelis. So why is the USA vetoing their bid?

[flying]

Missed it. Can you summarise?

Remebering that this is the 'moderate' Abbas. The one who fought against Hamas and who willingly negotiated with the Israelis. So why is the USA vetoing their bid?

Because they support Israel more than their pretense of freedom & peace.

Here is a CNN article from yesterday.

U.S. in tough spot with Palestinian statehood bid

A U.S. veto would amount to Washington blocking an outcome it has publicly supported -- the creation of a Palestinian state next to Israel. However, the Obama administration insists that result must occur through a negotiated deal with Israel.

Remember that 42% of all jews live in Israel

But also 39% live in the USA.

It is again glaringly obvious that the jewish lobbyist hold quite a few of the US puppets strings.

The US could abstain from voting & at least keep up the front of their often touted desire for a two state solution.

But instead our politicians bought & paid for will once again put others in front of their own citizens & once again

place our heads on the block.

Hillary & Obama for all their rhetoric will now claim....Oh they can achieve peace through negotiations.

Yet a blind man can see that will never happen.

Palestine says no more talks till the illegal settlements stop. But that will never stop till Palestine has a world voice.

No matter how much Obama & Hillary say Israel should stop & how the US does not approve of the continued expansion of illegal settlements.

They do nothing to follow through & NO ACTIONS are taken to follow up the disapproval.Anyone else in the world would suffer sanctions for such blatant acts. No not Israel! Lets give them another couple billion.

Addressing two main issues in the dispute, Obama said the U.S. government "does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements" in the West Bank, and declared that "it is time for (settlement construction) to stop."

Israel will just continue to do what they please & yet still expect the USA to appear & in fact become as two faced liars by now supporting the oppression/invasion/continued theft of lands openly.

Thus putting the US at ever more risk with ever more hatred directed at them. Yes this benefits the US citizens how?

"It is a veto that will most certainly undermine U.S. credibility as an honest broker in the peace process," at least in the eyes of the Arab world

Edited September 21, 2011 by flying

[Jingthing]

President Obama speaking live RIGHT NOW to the UN on the USA position AGAINST the Abbas led UN statehood recognition bid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/live/video-1?hpid=z1

Missed it. Can you summarise?

Remebering that this is the 'moderate' Abbas. The one who fought against Hamas and who willingly negotiated with the Israelis. So why is the USA vetoing their bid?

The West Bank and Gaza are NOT unified and Abbas does not represent Gaza. Also his legitimacy even as leader of the west bank is under question. Al Jazeera reported that only 30 percent even of west bank Arabs are supporting Abbas in his UN bid. The Gaza Hamas government is actively OPPOSED to the Abbas UN statehood recognition bid. The USA does not want to veto anything and is still working hard to avoid having to do a veto in the security council (by lobbying other votes). The tactics and wording of the Abbas bid attempt are yet to be determined. Abbas has NEVER openly abandoned the Palestinian right of return into the sovereign land of Israel. Israel will never agree to any peace deal without the Palestinians formally abandoning that. You call Abbas moderate. Not moderate enough. Recognizing the reality of the existence of Israel as a Jewish state and abandoning the demand for Palestinian right of return would make him moderate enough. Israel includes 20 percent Arab citizens. The Abbas government is on record as allowing NO JEWS in their proposed new state.

What did Obama say about this issue? Here it is --

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-peace-depends-on-compromise/2011/09/21/gIQAsel7kK_video.html

The text --

http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2011/09/21/3089514/obamas-text-on-israel-palestinians

But understand this is well America’s commitment to Israel’s security is unshakeable, and our friendship with Israel is deep and enduring. S we believe that any lasting peace must acknowledge the very real security concerns that Israel faces every single day. Let’s be honest: Israel is surrounded by neighbors that have waged repeated wars against it. Israel’s citizens have been killed by rockets fired at their houses and suicide bombs on their buses. Israel’s children come of age knowing that throughout the region, other children are taught to hate them. Israel, a small country of less than eight million people, looks out at a world where leaders of much larger nations threaten to wipe it off of the map. The Jewish people carry the burden of centuries of exile, and persecution, and the fresh memory of knowing that six million people were killed simply because of who they are.

Those are facts. They cannot be denied. The Jewish people have forged a successful state in their historic homeland. Israel deserves recognition. It deserves normal relations with its neighbors. And friends of the Palestinians do them no favors by ignoring this truth, just as friends of Israel must recognize the need to pursue a two state solution with a secure Israel next to an independent Palestine.

He didn't mention a veto directly but it's clear the USA will not vote yes to recognizing a Palestinian state at this time.

Obama, as predicted, is demanding DIRECT negotiations between Israel and whoever can represent a new state of Palestine. You may not like this position, but it is very defensible one, as there are TWO people's fates at stake in these matters, not one.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Incredible. I see you won't reform with your capitalization insult of the Jewish people.

You failed to show the context of that quote -- so following your snippet is this --

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/20/politics/us-palestinians-israel/index.html

And yet, Clinton noted, "there's been no progress."

One reason for a lack of progress has been uncertainty over the status of a Palestinian unity effort involving the Abbas-led authority in the West Bank and Hamas, which rules Gaza.

Israel and the United States consider Hamas a terrorist group and refuse to negotiate with it. The United States also has called on Hamas to renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist in order to take part in the peace process.

Hamas does not support President Abbas' bid for statehood. Hamas leader Ismail Haniya has said Fatah does not have the right to sacrifice Palestinian rights, including making concessions on Palestinian land or the right of return for Palestinian refugees. He said Hamas will not recognize Israel's right to a Jewish state.

Townsend said the changing face of the Middle East is worrying to Israel, noting the Muslim Brotherhood strengthening in post-Mubarak Egypt, the possibility of anti-Israel factions gaining a role in post-Gadhafi Libya and the constant threat from Iran.

"So you can understand Israel's concern about their current security," Townsend said. "I think Israel is rightly concerned. This is a very dangerous time."

Did you mention terrorism? Seems that we gave in to the terrorists back then.

[Jingthing]

Did you mention terrorism? Seems that we gave in to the terrorists back then.

What's your point? Are you one of those radicals who thinks that Israel doesn't deserve the right to exist now because of some messy stuff in their history? If so, I guess we can dismantle the USA and Australia as well, and don't get me started about the evils of the British empire.

If that's your position, please be open about it and express it coherently. Otherwise, tossing links about historic incidents like that is just flaming noise. If so you have a lot of company. Sadly the majority of Palestinians want to destroy Israel and want the Jews to go away or worse. How is Israel supposed to ever trust a people who mostly think that way? I don't know the answer; it's a big problem.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Did you mention terrorism? Seems that we gave in to the terrorists back then.

What's your point? Are you one of those radicals who thinks that Israel doesn't deserve the right to exist now because of some messy stuff in their history? If so, I guess we can dismantle the USA and Australia as well, and don't get me started about the evils of the British empire.

I'm saying that you are happy to attempt to demonise others, whilst failing to acknowledge that the modern state was born out of terrorism....and they celebrate it. It really was not that long ago.....and they continue to this day.

[Jingthing]

Did you mention terrorism? Seems that we gave in to the terrorists back then.

What's your point? Are you one of those radicals who thinks that Israel doesn't deserve the right to exist now because of some messy stuff in their history? If so, I guess we can dismantle the USA and Australia as well, and don't get me started about the evils of the British empire.

I'm saying that you are happy to attempt to demonise others, whilst failing to acknowledge that the modern state was born out of terrorism....and they celebrate it. It really was not that long ago.....and they continue to this day.

Thanks for clarifying your point of view.

The reality on the ground today is that Israel is an established national state. The Palestinians don't have that yet. How do they get there? Will they accept two states or will they never give up controlling ALL of the land there?

Edited September 21, 2011 by Jingthing