Thai Student Nazi Dress-Up Day Causes Outrage

[Nisa]

Itzhak Shoham, the Israeli ambassador to Thailand, said, "I think that really it was done out of ignorance, not out of bad intentions,"

He told told AFP."Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe," he added. "They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

Interesting the Israelis, who are not known for being forgiving & understanding re: any kind of Nazi promotion, can be both understanding and forgiving givin the facts in this incident but some posters here want to pretend there is more to the story than simple unawareness of non-Thai history due to education curriculum in Thailand and other parts of Asia.

[Thai at Heart]

^^^^ No, that was a different school in Bangkok that did almost the exact same thing 4 years ago.

Thewpaingarm School in Bangkok - 2007

Sacred Heart School in Chiang Mai - 2011.

Funny how they have obscured the faces of the students. Don't tell me the parents got hold of a copy of Munich.

[MaxYakov]

Probably it is not Mr Bean but José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero the Prime Minister of Spain ?

Check the sieg heil hand of the proposed of Senor Zapatero's rendition.

oh yes, he's making devil's horn, hmmmm.

That's a longhorn he is a University of Texas alum! Hookem Horns baby !!

I don't think it's Atkinson (Bean) either because the depiction has long hair. Maybe he and the other personages can found in the Who's Who of current dictators: Current Dictators (check for U of T Alumni, there have to one or two amongst them ).

[Nisa]

A Jewish human rights organization (Simon Wiesenthal Center) on Monday called for Thailand's Christian leaders to condemn a parade at the Sacred Heart School in Chiang Mai, Thailand, in which participating students wearing Nazi uniforms performed "Sieg Heil" salutes.

I wonder if they realize that less than 1% of the population in Thailand is Christian or if they are as ignorant to issues outside their own world as these kids.

As of 2008, there were 315 Catholic educational institutions in Thailand -- 311 schools, two colleges and two universities with28,495 teachers, according to the Catholic Education Council of Thailand. These institutions they serve more than 500,000 students, mostly Buddhists, the predominant religious group in the country.

http://www.heraldmal...n-2398-0-1.html

At 1% of the population, it would suggest they aren't getting much bang for their buck. But continue to try they will.

I think we have to step outside of our Western Understandings to understand that Catholic Schools in Thailand, for the most part, are not teaching Christianity or doing bible studies but simply schools teaching Buddhists the standard Thai Curriculum. They are not traditional Catholic Schools you find in the West.

[siamiam]

Haven't we heard enough about non-Nazi swastikas already? The topic is clearly about students under supervision of a Catholic school wearing German Nazi Hitlerian Third Reich style costumes and parading about. That was completely unambiguous.

I agree. The debate between non-nazi swastikas and nazi swastikas is completely and utterly irrelevant.

As an aside though are swastikas still used in modern day religion? There are many websites cataloguing their use in many parts of the world as late as the early 20th century, as good luck charms, and then it appears that lo and behold they disappeared. Why? Because the symbol became so connected with Nazis that their use became essentially offensive.

If you think a distinction between the nazi swastika and a religious swastika has no relevance, it just means the information regarding that issue posted on this thread did not resonate with you. It makes sense to many.

Regarding your questioning of weather or not the swastika still plays a part in religion today, you can easily find that information with an internet search. Here is one website:

http://swastika-info...topic=religions

The religious swastika is very much alive and still sacred to many. It will probably survive the negative connotation of its association with the nazis.

[Nisa]

<snip> A lot of these farangs seem to assume that the locals spend their day-to-day lives with nothing better to do than think about how to antagonise foreigners in Thailand<snip>.

Actually,it's the not "thinking" thats the problem here.

Thais not thinking about farangs to be more specific is a problem for Farangs as the Thais certainly don't whine and become overly concerned about the issues many here on TV do.

[Thai at Heart]

I think we have to step outside of our Western Understandings to understand that Catholic Schools in Thailand, for the most part, are not teaching Christianity or doing bible studies but simply schools teaching Buddhists the standard Thai Curriculum. They are not traditional Catholic Schools you find in the West.

No I know that, however, there is some measure of Christian teaching in most of them. That is also the situation today, however, the reason why the Catholic church put up so many of these institutions in the first place was to attempt to convert people, but in most cases that was many years ago. Would actually be interesting where they stand on sex education, condoms and homo-sexuality.

Today, yes, they are just schools with a bit of religious influence that goes in one ear and out the other, unfortunately like a lot of the curriculum they teach. Of course, one wouldn't want to know if these schools are run as profit centres.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[aechzen]

This is very strange and is smacks of total ignorance of WWII history and Nazi Germany. Don't these teachers read? If I am not mistaken, this is NOT the first time it has happened in Thailand.

nazi dress better than Ku klux klan dress

[uptheos]

Itzhak Shoham, the Israeli ambassador to Thailand, said, "I think that really it was done out of ignorance, not out of bad intentions,"

He told told AFP."Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe," he added. "They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

Interesting the Israelis, who are not known for being forgiving & understanding re: any kind of Nazi promotion, can be both understanding and forgiving givin the facts in this incident but some posters here want to pretend there is more to the story than simple unawareness of non-Thai history due to education curriculum in Thailand and other parts of Asia.

I think it's a diplomatic damning of the Thai education system that churns out ignorant people.

[Thai at Heart]

Haven't we heard enough about non-Nazi swastikas already? The topic is clearly about students under supervision of a Catholic school wearing German Nazi Hitlerian Third Reich style costumes and parading about. That was completely unambiguous.

I agree. The debate between non-nazi swastikas and nazi swastikas is completely and utterly irrelevant.

As an aside though are swastikas still used in modern day religion? There are many websites cataloguing their use in many parts of the world as late as the early 20th century, as good luck charms, and then it appears that lo and behold they disappeared. Why? Because the symbol became so connected with Nazis that their use became essentially offensive.

If you think a distinction between the nazi swastika and a religious swastika has no relevance, it just means the information regarding that issue posted on this thread did not resonate with you. It makes sense to many.

Regarding your questioning of weather or not the swastika still plays a part in religion today, you can easily find that information with an internet search. Here is one website:

http://swastika-info...topic=religions

The religious swastika is very much alive and still sacred to many. It will probably survive the negative connotation of its association with the nazis.

I am coming from the point of view that people are claiming the nazi swastika is turned around, at 45 degrees, this shape, that shape. As far as I know, it has been used every which way and at every which angle for ever.

If you read all of my post, I state that there is an enormously obvious difference between religious symbols of the swastika and nazi usage, but if I saw someone dressed in an SS uniform, marching around with his swastika the wrong way round, would it make any difference to what it meant?

It was used very very widely in the West until it became associated with Nazism as a good luck symbol and in many religious artworks and buildings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_use_of_the_swastika_in_the_early_20th_century

The swastika has not always been used as a symbol of Nazism and was in fact borrowed from Eastern cultures. It seems to have first been used by early inhabitants of Eurasia. It is an important symbol in Eastern religions, notably Hinduism and Buddhism, among others, and was also used in Native American faiths before World War II. By the early twentieth century it was regarded worldwide as a symbol of good luck and auspiciousness. Swastikas appeared on the spines of books by the Anglo-Indian writer Rudyard Kipling, and the symbol was used by Robert Baden-Powell's Boy Scout movement.

http://www.crystalinks.com/swastika.html

Edited September 30, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[Nisa]

I think we have to step outside of our Western Understandings to understand that Catholic Schools in Thailand, for the most part, are not teaching Christianity or doing bible studies but simply schools teaching Buddhists the standard Thai Curriculum. They are not traditional Catholic Schools you find in the West.

No I know that, however, there is some measure of Christian teaching in most of them. That is also the situation today, however, the reason why the Catholic church put up so many of these institutions in the first place was to attempt to convert people, but in most cases that was many years ago. Would actually be interesting where they stand on sex education, condoms and homo-sexuality.

Today, yes, they are just schools with a bit of religious influence that goes in one ear and out the other, unfortunately like a lot of the curriculum they teach. Of course, one wouldn't want to know if these schools are run as profit centres.

I don't think there is any real religious teaching at a good number of them. They are simply education institutions backed by the Catholic Church. My young nephew goes to a Muslim school here in Thailand and he is a Buddhist. They don't teach him about Muslims and serve pork during lunch to him and those who are not Muslim. There are many religious groups out there who go to developing & 3rd world nations to help make life better, such as building bridges, but they don't try to convert anyone or educate them on their religion.

Most private schools (religious or otherwise) are in business to make money. Even though this school is relatively cheap and caters to a number of poor families, it is a private school and I have little doubt its number one goal is to make money.

[Nisa]

I think we have to step outside of our Western Understandings to understand that Catholic Schools in Thailand, for the most part, are not teaching Christianity or doing bible studies but simply schools teaching Buddhists the standard Thai Curriculum. They are not traditional Catholic Schools you find in the West.

No I know that, however, there is some measure of Christian teaching in most of them. That is also the situation today, however, the reason why the Catholic church put up so many of these institutions in the first place was to attempt to convert people, but in most cases that was many years ago. Would actually be interesting where they stand on sex education, condoms and homo-sexuality.

Today, yes, they are just schools with a bit of religious influence that goes in one ear and out the other, unfortunately like a lot of the curriculum they teach. Of course, one wouldn't want to know if these schools are run as profit centres.

I don't think there is any real religious teaching at a good number of them. They are simply education institutions backed by the Catholic Church. My young nephew goes to a Muslim school here in Thailand and he is a Buddhist. They don't teach him about Muslims and serve pork during lunch to him and those who are not Muslim. There are many religious groups out there who go to developing & 3rd world nations to help make life better, such as building bridges, but they don't try to convert anyone or educate them on their religion.

Most private schools (religious or otherwise) are in business to make money. Even though this school is relatively cheap and caters to a number of poor families, it is a private school and I have little doubt its number one goal is to make money.

[cmsally]

I think we have to step outside of our Western Understandings to understand that Catholic Schools in Thailand, for the most part, are not teaching Christianity or doing bible studies but simply schools teaching Buddhists the standard Thai Curriculum. They are not traditional Catholic Schools you find in the West.

No I know that, however, there is some measure of Christian teaching in most of them. That is also the situation today, however, the reason why the Catholic church put up so many of these institutions in the first place was to attempt to convert people, but in most cases that was many years ago. Would actually be interesting where they stand on sex education, condoms and homo-sexuality.

Today, yes, they are just schools with a bit of religious influence that goes in one ear and out the other, unfortunately like a lot of the curriculum they teach. Of course, one wouldn't want to know if these schools are run as profit centres.

Indeed the bean counting must be prolific but that aside; they do in fact have easy entrance for Catholic students whereas others must vie for places the usual way. The same would go for employment, easier for Catholics etc etc. One assumes any scholarships are going to those of the right persuasion also.

That aside they are thought of as having a better educational status than most of the government schools. I think this is essentially carried over from the past. Having spoken to a few of my Thai friends who went to some of these schools maybe 30-40 years ago they reckon the educational standards were better then. With a larger Euro personnel, from what I understand the classes then were smaller and a lot of the tuition was in English. They essentially got what is offered today as "EP" for the standard price.

In fact a lot of my friends wonder what happens to the beans, as every time there is a major project they get hit up.

[MaxYakov]

Itzhak Shoham, the Israeli ambassador to Thailand, said, "I think that really it was done out of ignorance, not out of bad intentions,"

He told told AFP."Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe," he added. "They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

Interesting the Israelis, who are not known for being forgiving & understanding re: any kind of Nazi promotion, can be both understanding and forgiving givin the facts in this incident but some posters here want to pretend there is more to the story than simple unawareness of non-Thai history due to education curriculum in Thailand and other parts of Asia.

I tend to think that Itzhak Shoham did not get the full read on this and hastily overreacted. Hitler didn't seem to be glorified as a hero as evidenced by the banner where Hitler is portrayed as sticking out his tongue and the other satirical elements, including the presence of Osama on the banner. Does anyone know of anything to substantiate his assertion that 'They tend to think that he (Hiter) was a hero and not a monster as he really was ...?'

One would think he, if anyone, would know if this is a fact or NOT. He should have been careful with the 'They tend' expression, IMHO, because it implies a significant number of people. There will always be the Neo-Nazi nutcase fringe element but I don't see how the faculty or the students in this school qualify for that.

Edited September 30, 2011 by MaxYakov

[uptheos]

Most private schools (religious or otherwise) are in business to make money.

So, we can assume the dear sister's goal isn't a vow of poverty and a life of servitude to the Lord, she's in the business of making money.

That's OK, but please take off the fancy dress first.

[cmsally]

I think we have to step outside of our Western Understandings to understand that Catholic Schools in Thailand, for the most part, are not teaching Christianity or doing bible studies but simply schools teaching Buddhists the standard Thai Curriculum. They are not traditional Catholic Schools you find in the West.

No I know that, however, there is some measure of Christian teaching in most of them. That is also the situation today, however, the reason why the Catholic church put up so many of these institutions in the first place was to attempt to convert people, but in most cases that was many years ago. Would actually be interesting where they stand on sex education, condoms and homo-sexuality.

Today, yes, they are just schools with a bit of religious influence that goes in one ear and out the other, unfortunately like a lot of the curriculum they teach. Of course, one wouldn't want to know if these schools are run as profit centres.

I don't think there is any real religious teaching at a good number of them. They are simply education institutions backed by the Catholic Church. My young nephew goes to a Muslim school here in Thailand and he is a Buddhist. They don't teach him about Muslims and serve pork during lunch to him and those who are not Muslim. There are many religious groups out there who go to developing & 3rd world nations to help make life better, such as building bridges, but they don't try to convert anyone or educate them on their religion.

Most private schools (religious or otherwise) are in business to make money. Even though this school is relatively cheap and caters to a number of poor families, it is a private school and I have little doubt its number one goal is to make money.

Actually these schools cater almost entirely to the middle class and sometimes upper middle class. It depends on your definition of poor but by Thai standards, not.

[MaxYakov]

Most private schools (religious or otherwise) are in business to make money.

So, we can assume the dear sister's goal isn't a vow of poverty and a life of servitude to the Lord, she's in the business of making money.

That's OK, but please take off the fancy dress first.

Hmmm. A goal of a vow of poverty and a life of servitude to the Lord, eh? She's working on, at least the poverty part, with the apparent assistance of her faculty and students and (last but not least) some not-so-casual observers.

Edited September 30, 2011 by MaxYakov

[Nisa]

I think we have to step outside of our Western Understandings to understand that Catholic Schools in Thailand, for the most part, are not teaching Christianity or doing bible studies but simply schools teaching Buddhists the standard Thai Curriculum. They are not traditional Catholic Schools you find in the West.

No I know that, however, there is some measure of Christian teaching in most of them. That is also the situation today, however, the reason why the Catholic church put up so many of these institutions in the first place was to attempt to convert people, but in most cases that was many years ago. Would actually be interesting where they stand on sex education, condoms and homo-sexuality.

Today, yes, they are just schools with a bit of religious influence that goes in one ear and out the other, unfortunately like a lot of the curriculum they teach. Of course, one wouldn't want to know if these schools are run as profit centres.

I don't think there is any real religious teaching at a good number of them. They are simply education institutions backed by the Catholic Church. My young nephew goes to a Muslim school here in Thailand and he is a Buddhist. They don't teach him about Muslims and serve pork during lunch to him and those who are not Muslim. There are many religious groups out there who go to developing & 3rd world nations to help make life better, such as building bridges, but they don't try to convert anyone or educate them on their religion.

Most private schools (religious or otherwise) are in business to make money. Even though this school is relatively cheap and caters to a number of poor families, it is a private school and I have little doubt its number one goal is to make money.

Actually these schools cater almost entirely to the middle class and sometimes upper middle class. It depends on your definition of poor but by Thai standards, not.

Whilst Sacred Heart College is a private school, its prices are controlled by the Government and are very much lower than international private schools in the area.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Chiang_Mai

The school also waives fees for many students from poor families in the area.

[uptheos]

The school also waives fees for many students from poor families in the area.

Yeah AND they go gawp at the hill tribe people once a year......they're all heart!

[cmsally]

I don't think there is any real religious teaching at a good number of them. They are simply education institutions backed by the Catholic Church. My young nephew goes to a Muslim school here in Thailand and he is a Buddhist. They don't teach him about Muslims and serve pork during lunch to him and those who are not Muslim. There are many religious groups out there who go to developing & 3rd world nations to help make life better, such as building bridges, but they don't try to convert anyone or educate them on their religion.

Most private schools (religious or otherwise) are in business to make money. Even though this school is relatively cheap and caters to a number of poor families, it is a private school and I have little doubt its number one goal is to make money.

Actually these schools cater almost entirely to the middle class and sometimes upper middle class. It depends on your definition of poor but by Thai standards, not.

Whilst Sacred Heart College is a private school, its prices are controlled by the Government and are very much lower than international private schools in the area.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Chiang_Mai

The school also waives fees for many students from poor families in the area.

The termly fee is probably around 10k per term. Although the actual fees are controlled by the government I think you will find the other items on the bill are not controlled by the government. From a termly bill I believe the actual tuition fee is around 50% but that might differ per school. The tuition fee is that bit that the government workers can get a refund for. Then in addition you have excursion fees, summer school fees and all that stuff.

Just out of interest how many poor families get free education? Or is that a quote from Wikipedia??

Edited September 30, 2011 by cmsally

[Nisa]

Most private schools (religious or otherwise) are in business to make money.

So, we can assume the dear sister's goal isn't a vow of poverty and a life of servitude to the Lord, she's in the business of making money.

That's OK, but please take off the fancy dress first.

Which nun owns the school?

Last I checked the Catholic Church was doing pretty well for themselves.

[uptheos]

Most private schools (religious or otherwise) are in business to make money.

So, we can assume the dear sister's goal isn't a vow of poverty and a life of servitude to the Lord, she's in the business of making money.

That's OK, but please take off the fancy dress first.

Which nun owns the school?

Last I checked the Catholic Church was doing pretty well for themselves.

Ok I rephrase that.

She's in the business of helping to make money for the school, so they can spend it on lavish Nazi fancy dress parades. Shouldn't she be trawling the streets of Mumbai or Kolkata or something more useful?

Edited September 30, 2011 by uptheos

[Nisa]

Most private schools (religious or otherwise) are in business to make money.

So, we can assume the dear sister's goal isn't a vow of poverty and a life of servitude to the Lord, she's in the business of making money.

That's OK, but please take off the fancy dress first.

Which nun owns the school?

Last I checked the Catholic Church was doing pretty well for themselves.

Ok I rephrase that.

She's in the business of helping to make money for the school, so they can spend it on lavish Nazi fancy dress parades. Shouldn't she be trawling the streets of Mumbai or Kolkata or something more useful?

I think your conclusions show more ignorance than the kids did in their fancy dress.

[uptheos]

I think your conclusions show more ignorance than the kids did in their fancy dress.

Got a kid or two in Sacred Heart then?

She's obviously not in the business of education,

Edited September 30, 2011 by uptheos

[Nisa]

I think your conclusions show more ignorance than the kids did in their fancy dress.

Got a kid or two in Sacred Heart then?

See Above response.

[siamiam]

If you read all of my post, I state that there is an enormously obvious difference between religious symbols of the swastika and nazi usage, but if I saw someone dressed in an SS uniform, marching around with his swastika the wrong way round, would it make any difference to what it meant?

No, not to me. And, my comments on this thread did not pertain to the original post, but rather to a situation brought up during the course of this thread, which involved situations without any nazi paraphernalia, only a swastika.

My interest in the swastika is purely of a historical nature, not religious and certainly not political.

What if the nazis had adopted the Christian cross, or the Star of David as their symbol, instead of the swastika. I suspect that today, groups associated with nazis, or any type of ugliness (racism, etc.), would not be allowed to continue using these symbols (cross, star). They would be hounded legally, for sacrilegious activity, etc.. In a better world, perhaps we would see this happen because of the continuing use by these groups of the swastika, a sacred symbol to many. If it were possible to prevent the continuing sacrilegious use of the swastika, then perhaps the sacred symbol could be more quickly restored.

[Nisa]

More than 100 each year.

What is the source for the number of 100 scholarships??

Is this counting the children from Catholic families who get free scholarships or not.

Catholic schools' programs for poor students .. http://www.heraldmal...n-2398-0-1.html

Sister Darunee Sripramong, director of Sacred Heart School in Chiang Mai, also in northern Thailand, said her school waives fees for more than 100 poor students each year.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Nisa

[MaxYakov]

If you read all of my post, I state that there is an enormously obvious difference between religious symbols of the swastika and nazi usage, but if I saw someone dressed in an SS uniform, marching around with his swastika the wrong way round, would it make any difference to what it meant?

No, not to me. And, my comments on this thread did not pertain to the original post, but rather to a situation brought up during the course of this thread, which involved situations without any nazi paraphernalia, only a swastika.

My interest in the swastika is purely of a historical nature, not religious and certainly not political.

What if the nazis had adopted the Christian cross, or the Star of David as their symbol, instead of the swastika. I suspect that today, groups associated with nazis, or any type of ugliness (racism, etc.), would not be allowed to continue using these symbols (cross, star). They would be hounded legally, for sacrilegious activity, etc.. In a better world, perhaps we would see this happen because of the continuing use by these groups of the swastika, a sacred symbol to many. If it were possible to prevent the continuing sacrilegious use of the swastika, then perhaps the sacred symbol could be more quickly restored.

Cross? Haven't seen a cross all day (Luftwaffe Fw 190). There were at least 3 more (probably 5 of this same size) on the aircraft and and were much more prominent than the swastika, having a white border. Looking at this, I can't help recalling Milo Minderbinder's B-25s with his over-painted MM insignias.:

Edited September 30, 2011 by MaxYakov

[siamiam]

Haven't seen a cross all day (Luftwaffe Fw 190):

Interesting, was the cross a 'secondary symbol' for the nazis of WWII? I never saw it on one of their flags. I don't see any of 'these groups' displaying a cross today. Unless you count tattoos, possibly.

Edit:

Ok, I forgot about the KKK and the iron cross. I guess they use these symbols legally. So, that brings the question: why do these symbols seem to be less controversial now than the swastika?

Edited September 30, 2011 by siamiam

[Canexpat]

They kept the making of the 40 foot banners hidden from faculty for weeks? Gimme a break. No one thought it strange that the students were practicing goosestepping, and Zeig Heil salutes? No of course not, because when the faculty was questioned (many of which appear to be foreigners) even they did not know what the students were doing was wrong.

The only thing the students learned were the historical goosestepping, the Hitler imitations and the Zeig Heils, of the Nazis. Somehow the history of The Holocaust, the tyranny and barbarism of the Nazi Party, was missing from the historical references the students were using to design a Celebration of Nazism Sports Day. Yeah, I'll buy that for a dollar. I know displays of this sort are commonplace and even planned for school children in Muslim nations, where the Protocols of Zion are taught in the schools and on television as an accurate historical document, but I did not expect to see it in Thailand. The worst thing is they let the students carry it through, even after they knew what they were doing.

Finding a news media reporter who is not succeptible to a little graft or coercion to soft pedal this story and prevent them from getting to the heart of this ludicrousy, would be a little to much to ask I guess. Wouldn't want to hurt tourism.

Wasn't there some cheezy or chip manufacturer in Thailand a few years back, that made an advertisement shown on national TV glorifying Adolph Hitler, to sell their product, and Thailand did nothing to prevent it from being shown for months? Sadly there are no laws in Thailand restricting this of antisemitic portrayal, if I recall. I find it very disturbing, still having relatives alive who had their world torn apart by Hitler and the Nazis.