American-led Peace Movements

[Membrane]

Let's see, Saddam is now out of power, in the hands of the Americans and will be tried for war crimes. The U.S. is committed to soon handing over the reins of government to the Iraqis. The U.S. is helping Iran after their huge, catastrophic earth quake. Libya has volunteered to stop her WMD program--and now I just scanned the news headlines at Yahoo and find...

"U.S. Welcomes N.Korean Offer on Nuclear Power Program"

"India, Pakistan Reach Breakthrough Deal on Talks"

"Iran, Egypt Closer to Restoring Ties After 25 Years"

Could it be that peace is contagious? Maybe things are starting to look up after all. Of course Iran, Egypt, India and Pakistan did all these things on their own, but I wonder if maybe GWB's idea of ousting Saddam by force may--just may--have something indirectly to do with some of these recent developments?? Maybe the world is starting to see we need to work towards peace, even if we have to get rid of some bad guys to get it.

Just wondering... But whether all this is related to the work of the Americans or not, it's sure good to see these things happen!

Membrane

[plachon]

Take off those rose-tinted, Made in USA (but probably made in China in reality) specs and take a long deep breath. The world is no safer, and probably a lot more dangerous a place than 2 plus years ago when Georgie started his crusade in the ME. He's won his big prize - OIL - and removed one boogie man from power, but apart from that he's alienated even more of the Arab world than ever before and lost the hearts and minds of billions of others, dragging the name of your beloved country down through the muck at the same time. Wake up, stop thinking it's a patriotic duty to defend your leader, no matter how vile and despotic he is and do something positive (and peaceful) to remove the cyst in your nation's eye. Elections are looming, after all.

The only good piece of news that I've registered in the past 24 hours was a tiny snippet yesterday, saying that 4 Israeli soldiers were jailed for refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories. These refuseniks should be given medals of honour and courage for their brave stand. Wonder how many US newspapers carried the story?

[Georgie-Porgie]

I could concede that Membrane looks at America through rose-glasses. The USA is his country. He loves it, and he is proud of it's role as leader of the free world.

However, plachon is the one that seems to be looking at current events with horse-blinders, the kind that let one see, only what one wants to see.

I suggest he go back and read Membrane's post again.

I mean, just the fact that Libya, Syria and Iran are starting to tow the line, makes the world much safer than a few years ago; Never mind all the other stuff. How can he deny what is happening right in front of his eyes?

OK, the Arabs are pissed off. So what? When aren't they?

That is why Bush went into Afganistan. That is why Bush went into Iraq. He is telling the Arabs that the world is sick of their pointless sh1t, and they can't buy off the UN this time. It's time for them to start doing something positive, something to improve their lives. Something besides killing innocents and blowing things up.

And guess what? The Arabs know that he's serious, and for once they are listening.

To be continued...

[Butterfly]

I rest my case and will let you two make fools of yourselves

######, I am sure the "intelligent" and "educated" posters of this board must be laughing hard and shaking their heads when they read your crap above

I sure did. Thanks for making me start the day with a good laugh

And may God bless the American people, they will surely need it sooner more than later

[Georgie-Porgie]

Sorry Butterfly, you are neither intelligent, nor educated, which is more than obvious from any of your posts, and you hardly speak for those who are.

You are nothing but a sh1t disturber with nothing to say. You are a loser looking for the attention that you can't get in real life, who is held in distain by anyone who comes in contact with you.

The truth is that you don't belong on this forum; You and your posts are simply a waste of everyone's time. I have no idea why the administrators allow you to do so.

[SoCal]

Plachon, if Membrane has rose tinted glasses, then yours are surely brown, as you see the world for the sh*t it really isn't.

I would much rather live in Membrane's world, than your tragic kingdom.

PS- What oil? Be realistic. This oil, which is sold on the world market, must be costing the American people $20/gallon. While this may sound reasonable in European terms, I am used to $1.50/gallon.

There are good arguments to be made, so either make one, or go away.

[TizMe]

Well, I live in the Middle East and am therefore exposed to many Arabs on a daily basis.

I think that GWB's tactics may have had some effect on some Arab Governments for the better.

Has this made the world a safer place though? Afraid not, because although the Arab Govts are willing to toe the line, the actions of the American Govt and Troops has only inflamed the miss trust of Uncle Sam among the ordinary Arab citizens.

And guess where groups like Al Qada recruit from.

The war on terrorism is unwinable, unless US can change the opinion of the young angry Arabs.

[Membrane]

The war on terrorism is unwinable, unless US can change the opinion of the young angry Arabs.

...and how do you do that? Exactly how do you make all those angry young Arab men happy? Right. I know, by leaving Iraq. Then what? Then what if the next demand would be to kick the Jews out of Israel and give it to the Palestinians? Then what would come after that? ...I'm afraid that there will always be anger towards the west, no matter what.

I'm not being sarcastic here, if anyone really knows what all would need to be done, I'd love to hear it.

[SoCal]

TizMe, thanks for your honest reflections.

Truth is that this hate has been around for a long time, and the attacks were more plentiful under Clinton than Bush, and the planning for 9/11/01 was started four years in advance. All of this was going on, while Arafat was offered, and turned down, the sweetest deal his grey eyes will ever see.

This hate is not the fault of America (yes puppet regimes, Israel, etc.), but due to a genuine dissatisfaction and non-congruence with life. Also, a misplaced blame by many of those countries that we call friends, to distract from their own culpability.

It will not end until a majority of muslims have enough of this b.s., and stand up for what the majority of them believe in their hearts. Muslim radicalism will only, and can only, be broken from within, and my bet is another 20-30 years.

Sad but true, at least from my American view point.

[plachon]

I could concede that Membrane looks at America through rose-glasses. The USA is his country. He loves it, and he is proud of it's role as leader of the free world.

However, plachon is the one that seems to be looking at current events with horse-blinders, the kind that let one see, only what one wants to see.

I suggest he go back and read Membrane's post again.

I mean, just the fact that Libya, Syria and Iran are starting to tow the line, makes the world much safer than a few years ago; Never mind all the other stuff. How can he deny what is happening right in front of his eyes?

OK, the Arabs are pissed off. So what? When aren't they?

That is why Bush went into Afganistan. That is why Bush went into Iraq. He is telling the Arabs that the world is sick of their pointless sh1t, and they can't buy off the UN this time. It's time for them to start doing something positive, something to improve their lives. Something besides killing innocents and blowing things up.

And guess what? The Arabs know that he's serious, and for once they are listening.

To be continued...

Georgie (either one will do), I have read Membrane's post again and it hasn't changed in content or naivety from the first time. It's still the same blinkered patriotic rubbish that says USA is not only justified in its aggressive foreign policy, neo-colonialism and hegmonoius attempts, but that it's actually making a postive difference to world peace. This is laughable, which puts you in the same boat as Membrane, as you fail to see this simple self-evident truth too. Nobody ever requested the US to invade their country. Your leaders made that decision through the mouth of the most pig ignorant (this is the uncensored bear pit, right) President, your intelligent minority have ever had the misfortune to represent them in the White House. Even you, surely, can't deny the guy got in on the back of a minority Republican vote where the majority public even didn't vote or were barred from voting or voted for an alternative candidate.

Anyway, that's by the by, the fact is that the guy's in the Oval (formerly known by previous incombent as "Oral") Office and is dragging your nation into areas with no exit strategy and the US is getting bogged down in the <deleted> big time. So you have to invent a mirage that the world is suddenly a safer place and everyone of those boogie nations are suddenly towing the line, thanks to your GREAT LEADER's magnanimous efforts at world peace. Boy, oh boy! And pig's will fly. And Mike Jackson's as pure as the driven snow. And Mick Jagger doesn't look a day over 40. And those doirty, A-rabs are seeing the light and know it makes sense to join the "free world".

And by the way, I suggest you read your own post again and see how racist it is towards the Arab nation, which might well explain the extremist elements ever so-slight disdain for your moral superiority in the US. How can you expect to build understanding with the nations you invade and kill innocent people in, using rhetoric such as: "It's time for them to start doing something positive, something to improve their lives. Something besides killing innocents and blowing things up". Doesn't take a genius to work out the logic warp in this one Georgie (EITHER ONE!) This is why, may I suggest, you're now the laughing stock, hypocrites of the educated, world.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Yes, I can agree with you on something, Bush stole the election, but that is simply politics as usual in any country. If Gore could have rigged it, he would have done the same thing.

As far as Bush's intelligence goes, I think that he is probably of slightly above average intelligence. The reason he comes across as a little dim is because most politicians are considerably above the norm, and of course that Texas accent doesn't help anything.

However, one of the good things about George W. Bush is that he seems to realize his limitations and work around them, something that many more intelligent men, have not been able to do.

He is surrounded by the smartest people in the world, and, he listens to them, and follows their advice.

About your theory that Bush is getting the US into troubled areas "with no exit strategy". Don't you bet on it. Again, he has the smartest people in the world advising him. He isn't going anywhere without an exit strategy.

That brings us to your obligatory, I must be a racist, because I'm criticizing the Arabs, speech (Don't you guys ever come up with anything new?).

Anyone who thinks that this statement about the Arab countries is in any way untrue: "It's time for them to start doing something positive, something to improve their lives. Something besides killing innocents and blowing things up", shouldn't be casting dispersions about anyone's intelligence, never mind that of the President of the United States.

[plachon]

Yes, I can agree with you on something, Bush stole the election, but that is simply politics as usual in any country. If Gore could have rigged it, he would have done the same thing.

As far as Bush's intelligence goes, I think that he is probably of slightly above average intelligence. The reason he comes across as a little dim is because most politicians are considerably above the norm, and of course that Texas accent doesn't help anything.

However, one of the good things about George W. Bush is that he seems to realize his limitations and work around them, something that many more intelligent men, have not been able to do.

He is surrounded by the smartest people in the world, and, he listens to them, and follows their advice.

About your theory that Bush is getting the US into troubled areas "with no exit strategy". Don't you bet on it. Again, he has the smartest people in the world advising him. He isn't going anywhere without an exit strategy.

That brings us to your obligatory, I must be a racist, because I'm criticizing the Arabs, speech (Don't you guys ever come up with anything new?).

Anyone who thinks that this statement about the Arab countries is in any way untrue: "It's time for them to start doing something positive, something to improve their lives. Something besides killing innocents and blowing things up", shouldn't be casting dispersions about anyone's intelligence, never mind that of the President of the United States.

Well, I'm glad we can agree on one thing and that is the US has an illegitimate President running the country and Al Gore, by all accounts, should be in the WH. But he isn't, and the US people have been well and truly duped, not only about who is their rightful leaders, but also that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. But they haven't collectively risen up to express their disattisfaction, bar the intelligent (traveled, dare I say) and enlightened minority who have been seen on the streets booing Bush (most memorably at his inauguration ceremony, when he refused to face them, unlike every other past President, and got his limo to bolt like a frightened rabbit to the dais).

Given this, I must say, it does all seem a little strange to the semi-educated foreign observer that a small clique of US citizens should feel such an overwhelming need to defend the policies of a man and personality that has no legtimacy or credibility for the office he holds. Do you have any respect for the principles of democracy G-P, given your admission that your Prez stole the election? It's all rather baffling to Johnny Foreigner.

And as for the question of whether denigrating a whole proud nation of people by tarring them all with the label of "killers of innocents", "explosive experts" and "negative wasters" (to paraphrase YOUR terms), is racist or not, I will allow others to be the judge. The same narrow thinking has been applied in the past to the Irish people, the Basque people, even the southern Thai Muslims by rash outsiders who rarely hold mirrors up to their own kind, and end up fueling the fires of misunderstanding and distrust, which eventually leads down the road to armed conflict. It's not that hard to grasp I would have thought, if you could just step out of your own shoes for a minute and observe yourself from other's vantagepoints.

Have a nice day.

[plachon]

Plachon, if Membrane has rose tinted glasses, then yours are surely brown, as you see the world for the sh*t it really isn't.

I would much rather live in Membrane's world, than your tragic kingdom.

PS- What oil? Be realistic. This oil, which is sold on the world market, must be costing the American people $20/gallon. While this may sound reasonable in European terms, I am used to $1.50/gallon.

There are good arguments to be made, so either make one, or go away.

No, no, no. Silly me, it was nothing to do with oil at all. A purely altruistic war to remove that wicked man Saddam. Can't think where i ever got that silly idea from. I'll tell ya something for free tho' SoCal - it weren't Butterfly's links, as good as they are and it wasn't CNN, neither. By the way, tell me about Membrane's World some time.

[TizMe]

The war on terrorism is unwinable, unless US can change the opinion of the young angry Arabs.

...and how do you do that? Exactly how do you make all those angry young Arab men happy?

I wish that I had the answer to that one.

It is utterly amazing to listen to all the conspiracy theories that curculate among the Arabs.

Intelligent, non radical people that should know better, believe what they want to believe rather than what you would expect their reasoning powers to deduce.

(I also believe that this applies to many of the American public as well. They want to believe that the intentions of their own government are absolutely nothing but honourable).

[TizMe]

This hate is not the fault of America (yes puppet regimes, Israel, etc.), but due to a genuine dissatisfaction and non-congruence with life. Also, a misplaced blame by many of those countries that we call friends, to distract from their own culpability.

It will not end until a majority of muslims have enough of this b.s., and stand up for what the majority of them believe in their hearts. Muslim radicalism will only, and can only, be broken from within, and my bet is another 20-30 years.

I agree with most of what you say in the first paragraph.

But I still believe that the U.S could/should do more to improve its image among the potential future terrorists.

Just as the old saying that "an enemy of my enemy becomes my friend", so does "a friend of my enemy becomes my enemy".

Israel and Arabs will always be enemies, regardless of any peace agreements to be made in the future. While the U.S continues to veto any/all U.N resolutions against Israel then the anger of the Arabs will only continue and so will the perception that U.S is also an enemy.

Unfortunately its not the majority of muslims that we all have a problem with. It is a very small minority, but it only takes a few radical militants to disrupt world peace.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Oh come on! You think of yourself as the big Anti-Bush "Intellectual", but even semi-educated Johnny Foreigner understands politics better than you do. I'm sure that they wouldn't be at all shocked that Mr. Bush took advantage of the voting system in the US in order to statistically improve his chances of winning, and are you saying you don't realize that Al Gore's people tried to do the same thing?

By the way, I only used "stole the election" as a figure of speech. George W. Bush had more electoral votes than Al Gore, that means that , according to our system, he won legitimately.

Personally, I don't support the electoral system, but, that is neither here nor there.

As for your old standby, the racist card, you are the kind of supposed "Intellectual" that has airports in America stupidly wasting time, money and resources searching large numbers of good middle-class citizens to see if they are terrorists, instead of concentrating on more likely suspects using racial profiling.

The kind of "Intellectual" that steps out into the real world, trips over his own feet and lands right on his face.

Have a nice day.

[Khun ?]

And may your 10 wives and 300 children have a nice mosque to learn hate.

Allah approves of it. Pol Pot was a nice man just a different type of mosque.

[adjan jb]

Bush is surrounded by the smartest people in the world. Georgie-Porgie

How come that the smartest people in the world are ALL AMERICANS ?

Is it the air ? The genetically modified junk food ? the genes ?

I didn't know that in the rest of of the world (197 countries) there wasn't anybody as smart as the smartest americans.

Such a comment smacks.

The book of arrogance was, no doubt, written in Washington D.C.

[Khun ?]

Bush is surrounded by the smartest people in the world. Georgie-Porgie

How come that the smartest people in the world are ALL AMERICANS ?

Is it the air ? The genetically modified junk food ? the genes ?

I didn't know that in the rest of of the world (197 countries) there wasn't anybody as smart as the smartest americans.

Such a comment smacks.

The book of arrogance was, no doubt, written in Washington D.C.

I did not know Blair and his cabinet was American. What about Spain, Poland, Japan and numerous other leaders who agree that dictators are not in the worlds best interest. What does Bush have to do with modified food products, it may help millions get food. I guess using this type of thinking the medical world should just close down and when you are sick and if the body has problems healing itself, to bad your dead. Do you have tunnel vision. You seem to have, if it is american (bush) it has to be bad, problems. Well in the real world not everything is perfect. You sound like the poor little guy that feel off the wagon and had to escape to a not so modern world because you could not handle the real world.

These people are a baht a dozen in thailand. Do you actually think if Bush snaps his finger it is a done deal. What about Eruopeans complaining about the price of fuel when 75% of the cost is local taxes. You know why? Partial blame is because

to many people scam their way to a sick lame and lazy government pension and run off to ( oh my back hurts Thailand and other places). Please find another excuse for things not being to your desires. It has to be more than Bush.

Genetically modified junk food. Boy you sure did reach for the stars on this one.

Did you check your horoscope out for today.

[Georgie-Porgie]

The book of arrogance was, no doubt, written in Washington D.C.

Shew, pesky fly, shew. don't have time for silly comments by the mentally deficient. Shew!

[SoCal]

Adjan, it is not that us Americans feel like we know everything, it is that us Americans feel like we know a ###### of a lot more about our country, and what is good for it, than a bunch of "know it all" foreigners. You think your views are important, and I'm sure they are to you.

Plachon, as god awful tired as I am of defending this guy, Bush is the legitimate president. We are a republic, not a democracy. Don't understand, go buy a book.

Khun, unfortunately I do not understand what you write, and if I do, then you do not warrant my attention.

TizMe, you seem respectable enough. Fact is however that it is not our job to make people like us. I know it stings the Europeans ears, but we are a sovereign nation with our own agenda. Even if we tried to placate the terrorists, we would not be successful, so what is the point? The Middle East needs to deal with their own problems, as they are the only ones that can solve. So why are we there? We keep getting sucked back in. Look back to pre 9/11, Bush was an isolationist, and so were we as a nation. The M.E. needs to change, but they are the only ones who can effectively do this, and afraid it will be a very long road. Tant pis.

[Membrane]

The Middle East needs to deal with their own problems, as they are the only ones that can solve. So why are we there? We keep getting sucked back in. Look back to pre 9/11, Bush was an isolationist, and so were we as a nation. The M.E. needs to change, but they are the only ones who can effectively do this, and afraid it will be a very long road.

That's exactly right, SoCal. I recall prior to 9/11, Bush was ready to "concentrate on the U.S." (basically leaving the other nations to work on their own problems for a while) and had even made statements to that effect.

What happens? The 9/11 attack... We got sucked back in, just as SoCal said. 9/11 was probably the biggest instigation of a fight in history. THE TRUTH IS there are Islamic extremists who WANT to pick a fight with the U.S., they WANT the utter distruction of this country, they WANT to bait us into a "war with Islam", as they are so fond of saying. Why? Because of jealousy? Because we're "infidels"? Because we export McDonald's, Eminem, Gangsta-rap and hip-hop to their children? (Personally I don't like any of the latter either, but that's beside the point)!

It's NOT that Bush is a war-mongerer, etc. He just--right or wrong--is trying to do things that will cause a little more stability in the middle east. Yeah, I know.. there are those out there that are reading this and can't believe it, saying things like ousting Saddam will make even more young Arabs angry and will fuel even more terrorist attacks, etc., etc., etc.... THEY ARE GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY. Why not OUST A DICTATOR THAT IS HELPING THAT KIND OF INSTABILITY ALONG? It IS a gamble, whether or not it will work. But what's ol' GWB supposed to do? He has sworn to protect the U.S. Once this crap hits our shores, it became a new world. 9/11 changed everything!

But maybe, just maybe, some stability can come to Iraq. Maybe, just maybe, some of the Iraqis will appreciate what has been done for them, after they see us go back home, once they can start to enjoy the new roads, schools, hospitals, power plants, etc., etc., that the U.S. is installing for them. But that's IF the terrorists don't destroy all the work we've done--and I think THAT is their plan--SABOTAGE ANYTHING GOOD THE AMERICANS TRY TO DO. If an "American infidel" put this bridge up, I will destroy it! If an "American infidel" built this hospital, I will blow it up! Basically, they are trying very hard to make every American "Persona Non Grata" throughout the world. --Then back it all up with lies, misdirection, propaganda and deception. Link it to an existing, well-established religion and simmer it all in every powerful, negative emotion possible: hatred, jealousy, fear and anger. (Think about it--they're all there in what A-Q does, and how they are high-jacking Islam).

Look, what the U.S. has done and is doing in Iraq is a huge monumental GIFT. They couldn't get rid of Saddam themselves and yes, they needed our help. I've read here on this forum that the Iraqis "didn't ask us to get involved". Well--HOW CAN YOU IF YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT HAS A KNIFE AT YOUR THROAT? But the ones who already hate America or hate GWB are going to twist it around to suit their perception of the world one way or another; whether the U.S. does anything or not. And if it's not that, they'll find SOMETHING ELSE they don't like about the U.S. It's been this way for a long time. Back in the 70's, Iran was calling us the "Great Satan" and held our folks hostage in the Embassey for some 400 days or so.

[Jeepz]

I pretty much agree with Membrane about the current US political drama. There are things I really dislike about the Bush administration, other things I respect. It isn't a blanket condemnation or approval. I completely agree that Bush was more an isolationist until Sept 11. Then it changed. And though I don't agree with much of what happened, I still support the Gov't and the Troops. And I sure don't feel sorry for Saddam. Nor the French (whom I generally like), or the Germans, or anyone else for that matter. The miserable state of affairs in the Middle East is just that. Due to the people there on both sides. Even Israel is having problem with its troops because of state policies. Both sides are bound and determined to out matyr the other.

But one one note I see some hope. Many folks see the Iraq invasion as about OIL. Well, hey, maybe yes, maybe no. But there is a technology just getting started here in the USA that may make oil producing countries a bit nervous. See the link for Oil from Garbage. Any sort of garbage except nuclear. Old tires, turkey guts, all those smelly disposable diapers. You name it and abakadabra ... OIL! Oil From Garbage

Jeepz

[TizMe]

TizMe, you seem respectable enough. Fact is however that it is not our job to make people like us.

Agreed, but I think it IS your job to try to stop people hating you enough to repeat the tragedies of 9/11. Just as a company does PR work to protect or improve their image.

Two statements that stick in my mind that were very bad PR came from GWB.

"Its a crusade" and "You are either with us or against us".

The Middle East needs to deal with their own problems, as they are the only ones that can solve. So why are we there? We keep getting sucked back in.

The Arab mentality (rightly or wrongly) sees the U.S as interfering in this process by always taking the Israeli's side.

[SoCal]

TizMe, just because someone hates, does not make it well founded. In many ways the hate toward Israel is equally irrational (historicly) and is generated for the same reason as discussed earlier: ie- despots drawing attention from their own regimes. I spend a lot of time in Pakistan, and I can tell you the hate is misdirected. They have everyone from the Russians, to the Israelis, to god forbid ourselves causing 9/11, while you have Osama gloating at the camera and taking responsibility.

I fear it will be a very long process, a very painful process, but they need to come to terms with reality, and join the rest of us in the 21st century.

As for Bush, he says a lot of stupid things, but so does Dean, Schroder, Chirac, you, and myself. It is human nature TizMe. The world needs a time out. Everyone go to their corners, and don't come back until you are ready to be an adult, and work together for a better world.

[SoCal]

PS Jeepz & G-P, welcome to the "don't tread on me" club.

Membrane and I have been alone for far too long.

[Georgie-Porgie]

SoCal

Thanks.

I love that, "Don't Tread on Me Club".

You are alone no longer!

[Khun ?]

I do not go to Pakistan to many of them here in other parts of the region.

What a mess that place is. I would not relate much for experience for having been there. They would suck the weenie off the pope if it was worth a baht.

The fact that tap dancing is behind us as of

1990 not 9/11/01. Saddam was the savior the extremist needed to continue their hate and provide the attention they so much desire ( and this includes your pakistani compadres). No one in the middle east would give most of these people the time of day before 1990. Osama lost all respect years ago when they sent him to his time out corner after his freedom fighter crusade with Russia which he did very little. He lost face no matter how much money he has. Using whatever he can he has helped incite more hatred than any other party in this area. If anyone thinks

that Saddam and Osama have not been aligned for many years is wrong ( he considered Kuwait as a zionist regime) Osama blames the U.S. for his little kick to the side.

If it was not for their ability to disrupt world economies we would let this whole area go the way of Africa and do things out of harms way. Many muslim countries have tried to distance themselves from these extreme regimes for years and of course with U.S. help.

Many of these countries have had nothing but religion for centuries, as there has definetly been no nation building done. These governments have had to much time outs already. It is time for accountability and action and no more of this time out come back as an adult pacifst bullsh*t that has been going on for years. News travels much faster now days and not as easy to hide as it was before.

The allianze for finally making governments in the middle east accountable through the U.N. was sold out for big contracts and the non ability of the U.N. to get some teeth in their bite. There has been far to much wasted corner time and it is in the past for the most. Thank Bhuda, maybe next we can work on California.

[TizMe]

TizMe, just because someone hates, does not make it well founded. In many ways the hate toward Israel is equally irrational (historicly) and is generated for the same reason as discussed earlier

I agree 100%.

But also just because in the eyes of the U.S the hated is ill founded, shouldn't mean that the U.S shouldn't be trying to convince the "Angry Young Arabs" that they aren't out to get them.

Part of the problem as I see it, is that people like OBL have worked very hard with their PR people to convince the AYA that the west, and U.S in particular, are the enemy. Meanwhile the U.S isn't doing the PR to convince them otherwise.

[singa-traz]

Plachon, if Membrane has rose tinted glasses, then yours are surely brown, as you see the world for the sh*t it really isn't.

I would much rather live in Membrane's world, than your tragic kingdom.

PS- What oil? Be realistic. This oil, which is sold on the world market, must be costing the American people $20/gallon. While this may sound reasonable in European terms, I am used to $1.50/gallon.

There are good arguments to be made, so either make one, or go away.

No, no, no. Silly me, it was nothing to do with oil at all. A purely altruistic war to remove that wicked man Saddam. Can't think where i ever got that silly idea from. I'll tell ya something for free tho' SoCal - it weren't Butterfly's links, as good as they are and it wasn't CNN, neither. By the way, tell me about Membrane's World some time.

It's not about oil or any other strategic move ... must be, like Plachon says, purely altruistic war to remove all evil from Earth ...