Aid Group MSF Quits Thailand Over 'Govt Interference'

[webfact]

Aid group MSF quits Thailand over 'govt interference'

BANGKOK, October 3, 2011 (AFP) - A major international medical aid group said on Monday it was pulling out of Thailand after 36 years because of government interference, leaving thousands of migrants without access to a doctor.

Medecins Sans Frontieres (Doctors Without Borders) said in June it had to close two projects, which it said treated around 55,000 mainly Burmese unregistered migrants.

"We had enormous difficulties with the authorities to find strategies acceptable to them and us," said head of mission in Thailand Denis Penoy.

"We were forced to close one of our private clinics and pushed to close the other," he added. "We will not conduct any more activities and will have no representation in Thailand."

Access to healthcare for unregistered migrants at the two medical centres has been central to MSF operations in the country for two years.

But Penoy said the authorities in Samut Sakhon, a port town on the outskirts of Bangkok, instructed the local MSF clinic to limit its work to prevention and told doctors not to treat general practice patients.

Its second surgery, in the Three Pagoda Pass on the border with Myanmar, was also later closed.

Activists estimate there are up to about three million migrants in Thailand, mostly from impoverished neighbour Myanmar, also known as Burma.

More than a million are believed to remain without documents despite a recent government registration scheme.

MSF, which employs around 70 staff in the kingdom, first worked in Thailand in 1975.

Penoy said a return to the country was possible "in the event of an emergency or great need".

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-10-03

[Credo]

A kinder, gentler nation, it's not.

Sad news for a lot of needy people.

[philw]

A kinder, gentler nation, it's not.

Sad news for a lot of needy people.

Very much so.

MSF do a lot of good work but it must be a nightmare dealing with Thai intransigence.

Sad, but understandable that they give up.

[ginjag]

A kinder, gentler nation, it's not.

Sad news for a lot of needy people.

Very much so.

MSF do a lot of good work but it must be a nightmare dealing with Thai intransigence.

Sad, but understandable that they give up.

This is another example of a government --"for the poor people" well done Yingluck/staff.

[geriatrickid]

The pullout is sort of old news and has been going on for 2 years. After the Laotians left/were deported/repatriated, MSF handed over its facilities to UNICEF.

The presence of large numbers of illegal immigrants in Thailand presents both a social and national security problem for Thailand. The view of many Thais is that the presence of NGOs encourages illegals to keep coming to Thailand. The government wants to increase the monitoring and tracking of these illegals and MSF doesn't want to co-operate. The clash with MSF has been going on for over a decade. MSF doesn't want to breach what it believes are the rights of its clients to confidentiality and safe access to care. Thailand says it wants to know what is going on with these people and to have the right to control what foreign NGOs do in Thailand. It wants to know the exact situation regarding carriers of infectious diseases such as TB, HIV etc. More specifically, Thailand believes that MSF is indirectly providing support to Myanmar's insurgents/freedom fighters/terrorists (whatever you want to call them). In fairness to MSF, it is non discriminatory and treats anyone in need of help. However, the Thai military doesn't want any NGO providing assistance to the warring factions even if unintended because it draws Thailand into the ongoing fighting next door. Many of the warring factions are the same people manufacturing and exporting yaba into Thailand.

I believe that both sides in the dispute have legitimate positions. However, Thailand is doing the right thing in terms of its national interest. Consider what would happen if a bunch of Thais showed up in Texas, USA to start providing assistance to undocumented illegal immigrants. How about, if the Thais set up shop in the UK? Would these western countries be willing to waive their medical certification requirements and say, ok, you boys and girls go do your thing, go have a state within a state. MSF has had more freedom to move around and do as it wishes than it would have in any western country.

Thailand has a right to control what goes on inside its borders and MSF does not see it the same way. In any case, The Thai operations have never been an eye catcher because there are no dead bodies or starving kids flopping about in Thailand. Hard to raise money if the donors don't see a problem. MSF has wanted to divert its resources to Africa since the start of the famine, and they should have just said that.

[siampolee]

What a wonderful response above #5 from a bitter twisted poster G.K.

Indeed I do hope that G.K. never finds himself or herself in dire need of help and then there is no-one around. Poetic justice indeed if such a situation arose.

[ginjag]

The pullout is sort of old news and has been going on for 2 years. After the Laotians left/were deported/repatriated, MSF handed over its facilities to UNICEF.

The presence of large numbers of illegal immigrants in Thailand presents both a social and national security problem for Thailand. The view of many Thais is that the presence of NGOs encourages illegals to keep coming to Thailand. The government wants to increase the monitoring and tracking of these illegals and MSF doesn't want to co-operate. The clash with MSF has been going on for over a decade. MSF doesn't want to breach what it believes are the rights of its clients to confidentiality and safe access to care. Thailand says it wants to know what is going on with these people and to have the right to control what foreign NGOs do in Thailand. It wants to know the exact situation regarding carriers of infectious diseases such as TB, HIV etc. More specifically, Thailand believes that MSF is indirectly providing support to Myanmar's insurgents/freedom fighters/terrorists (whatever you want to call them). In fairness to MSF, it is non discriminatory and treats anyone in need of help. However, the Thai military doesn't want any NGO providing assistance to the warring factions even if unintended because it draws Thailand into the ongoing fighting next door. Many of the warring factions are the same people manufacturing and exporting yaba into Thailand.

I believe that both sides in the dispute have legitimate positions. However, Thailand is doing the right thing in terms of its national interest. Consider what would happen if a bunch of Thais showed up in Texas, USA to start providing assistance to undocumented illegal immigrants. How about, if the Thais set up shop in the UK? Would these western countries be willing to waive their medical certification requirements and say, ok, you boys and girls go do your thing, go have a state within a state. MSF has had more freedom to move around and do as it wishes than it would have in any western country.

Thailand has a right to control what goes on inside its borders and MSF does not see it the same way. In any case, The Thai operations have never been an eye catcher because there are no dead bodies or starving kids flopping about in Thailand. Hard to raise money if the donors don't see a problem. MSF has wanted to divert its resources to Africa since the start of the famine, and they should have just said that.

Don't forget thats your opinion, but in desperate areas you need ngo's to help, I worked for overseas aid, it's not a matter who is right and wrong, people who are desperate WANT aid, The Thai government should work along side them and appreciate what they do not tread on their toes, working for over 30 years doing a fantastic job-hey presto they cannot work with this said government, it's self explanitory.

Maybe they are wanting to control like they are trying to do with their own population.

Edited October 3, 2011 by ginjag

[colinscarr]

Given the things that have happened to Rohingya and Hmong refugees here in recent years, I can quite understand why the government would be glad to see the back of MSF. One less nosey NGO, and a foreign one at that, the gov.t will be pleased.

[cloudhopper]

I had similar experiences flying my plane into Mexico with a flying docs organization. Makes the host country appear as though they can't handle it or otherwise calls attention to some embarrassing truth.

[ginjag]

Given the things that have happened to Rohingya and Hmong refugees here in recent years, I can quite understand why the government would be glad to see the back of MSF. One less nosey NGO, and a foreign one at that, the gov.t will be pleased.

Oh thats fine, another hard heart thats all we need, I have to ask you this, what do you recommend to help these desperate people ????????????????? NOSEY your very quick to make your point so be equally quick for a remedy now that the help has gone.

[geriatrickid]

What a wonderful response above #5 from a bitter twisted poster G.K.

Indeed I do hope that G.K. never finds himself or herself in dire need of help and then there is no-one around. Poetic justice indeed if such a situation arose.

How is it bitter or twisted? If you disagree, state what you disagree with and refute the point. Do you disagree with me because I write that MSF has a legitimate position from its perspective, or that the Thais have a right to control what goes on within their borders?

MSF had more freedom to operate and to conduct its operations within Thailand than it does in any western nation. You don't see MSF bringing in foreign personnel to treat the gaping abscesses that are aboriginal settlements in Australia, or Canada do you? MSF is not allowed to do that with the refugees in Spain or Greece either. Do you know why? Because the local regulations and governments block them. Instead of trying to take a swipe at me, focus on the reasons why MSF and Thailand disagree.

[OzMick]

"......... no dead bodies or starving kids flopping about.........."

What a charming turn of phrase! Your empathy underwhelms me completely.

[Emptyset]

This is another example of a government --"for the poor people" well done Yingluck/staff.

Worth noting that they seem to have made the decision in June though.

[Credo]

Thanks GK for the informative post.

I have no problem with Thailand booting them out, provided they are planning on providing the care that is desperately needed. Giving medical attention to people is hardly aiding or abetting the enemy. I also doubt that a large % of the people treated by MSF came here specifically for medical care.

[Boater]

Thanks GK for the informative post.

I have no problem with Thailand booting them out, provided they are planning on providing the care that is desperately needed. Giving medical attention to people is hardly aiding or abetting the enemy. I also doubt that a large % of the people treated by MSF came here specifically for medical care.

tottally agree with the above statment

[ginjag]

This is another example of a government --"for the poor people" well done Yingluck/staff.

Worth noting that they seem to have made the decision in June though.

I wonder if they had an Idea after April??????? but if it had, anything that wasn't very helpful from the last government, is Yingluck telling them to do a U turn ???? NO

[jonclark]

The pullout is sort of old news and has been going on for 2 years. After the Laotians left/were deported/repatriated, MSF handed over its facilities to UNICEF.

The presence of large numbers of illegal immigrants in Thailand presents both a social and national security problem for Thailand. The view of many Thais is that the presence of NGOs encourages illegals to keep coming to Thailand. The government wants to increase the monitoring and tracking of these illegals and MSF doesn't want to co-operate. The clash with MSF has been going on for over a decade. MSF doesn't want to breach what it believes are the rights of its clients to confidentiality and safe access to care. Thailand says it wants to know what is going on with these people and to have the right to control what foreign NGOs do in Thailand. It wants to know the exact situation regarding carriers of infectious diseases such as TB, HIV etc. More specifically, Thailand believes that MSF is indirectly providing support to Myanmar's insurgents/freedom fighters/terrorists (whatever you want to call them). In fairness to MSF, it is non discriminatory and treats anyone in need of help. However, the Thai military doesn't want any NGO providing assistance to the warring factions even if unintended because it draws Thailand into the ongoing fighting next door. Many of the warring factions are the same people manufacturing and exporting yaba into Thailand.

I believe that both sides in the dispute have legitimate positions. However, Thailand is doing the right thing in terms of its national interest. Consider what would happen if a bunch of Thais showed up in Texas, USA to start providing assistance to undocumented illegal immigrants. How about, if the Thais set up shop in the UK? Would these western countries be willing to waive their medical certification requirements and say, ok, you boys and girls go do your thing, go have a state within a state. MSF has had more freedom to move around and do as it wishes than it would have in any western country.

Thailand has a right to control what goes on inside its borders and MSF does not see it the same way. In any case, The Thai operations have never been an eye catcher because there are no dead bodies or starving kids flopping about in Thailand. Hard to raise money if the donors don't see a problem. MSF has wanted to divert its resources to Africa since the start of the famine, and they should have just said that.

So what's more of a" national security threat" (btw - How are migrants from Myanmar such a national security threat?? Do they carry guns, plant bombs, seek to topple the monarchy? Please explain GK) 3 million health illegal migrants or 3 million unhealthy disease spreading illegal migrants?? GK??

PS - Your parallels with Thais in Texas is nonsense - all MSF doctors are highly qualified and they have been trying to work with (not against the Thai Authorities) , and perhaps that was the problem - The migrants were getting better health care than the Thais

Whilst you are correct Thailand can control what goes on within its borders, now that MSF has left, what is the care they provided for people being replaced with by the authorities, perhaps if there was a 'replacement' to fill the void left the decision could be better understood. I can't imagine illegal migrants being welcomed at a government hospital,. especially given the dire financial straits some hospitals are in. In EU countries there is an obligation to treat the sick for obvious reasons

Edited October 3, 2011 by jonclark

[Phatcharanan]

Thailand has a right to control what goes on inside its borders and MSF does not see it the same way. In any case, The Thai operations have never been an eye catcher because there are no dead bodies or starving kids flopping about in Thailand. Hard to raise money if the donors don't see a problem. MSF has wanted to divert its resources to Africa since the start of the famine, and they should have just said that.

Spoken by someone who has obviously never visited one of the refugee camps near the border.

[roamer]

Given the things that have happened to Rohingya and Hmong refugees here in recent years, I can quite understand why the government would be glad to see the back of MSF. One less nosey NGO, and a foreign one at that, the gov.t will be pleased.

Oh thats fine, another hard heart thats all we need, I have to ask you this, what do you recommend to help these desperate people ????????????????? NOSEY your very quick to make your point so be equally quick for a remedy now that the help has gone.

Err, I think colinscarr" was being ironic ?

[roamer]

If Thailand were not one of the countries instrumental in allowing the dictatorship to survive in Burma they probably would not have to deal with a refugee issue in the first place.

[moe666]

GK made some very good points and I donot usually agree with him but on this I do. Always remember NGOs what ever they are doing have there own agenda just as countries and individuals. if this makes me hard hearted ok by me, they will probably get some treatment in Thailand a lot more than will ever get in burma.

[Buchholz]

This is another example of a government --"for the poor people" well done Yingluck/staff.

Worth noting that they seem to have made the decision in June though.

But surely the MSF is one of those "activists, in the guise of non-governmental organizations" entities whose goal of toppling the current government didn't begin in earnest until after the election.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=502754&view=findpost&p=4739675

[geriatrickid]

Thailand has a right to control what goes on inside its borders and MSF does not see it the same way. In any case, The Thai operations have never been an eye catcher because there are no dead bodies or starving kids flopping about in Thailand. Hard to raise money if the donors don't see a problem. MSF has wanted to divert its resources to Africa since the start of the famine, and they should have just said that.

Spoken by someone who has obviously never visited one of the refugee camps near the border.

Wrong. Been there, done that and I have no desire to see any more foot fungus or dirty toenails. My ex used to stick her hand in the orifices of such people. She would get rather irate at me when I recited Little Jack Horner and used poetic license to inquire about pulling out a plum from a bum.

[geriatrickid]

I wonder if they had an Idea after April??????? but if it had, anything that wasn't very helpful from the last government, is Yingluck telling them to do a U turn ???? NO

Please check your facts. It was the Abhisit government that imposed the ban on visiting the refugee settlement zones.

It was also the Abhisit government that organized the mass deportations of refugees. Check your facts. Do you need some help?

http://www.guardian....tion-hmong-laos

http://www.mizzima.c...a-refugees.html

The military junta didn't have the same position on refugees as the Abhisit regime. Nor did the Thaksin era government, nor the government that preceded Thaksin.

You might also want to go back and check when the MSF started making its loudest complaints and ratcheting up the withdrawal. Surprise, surprse, it was during the time of Abhisit.

Edited October 4, 2011 by geriatrickid

[geriatrickid]

Serious question. Does anyone directing hostile comments my way on this subject even know what MSF did in Thailand or acknowledge the fact that MSF hasn't had much of a presence in Thailand for the past 18 months?

MSF is a reputable group that I have both supported and contributed to, but the fact of the matter is that MSF started leaving some time ago. They have been disagreeing with local officials for years. The reasons given by the news source for the departure are a rehash of the spat arising from the removal of the Laotian refugees a couple years ago. Those refugees were a focus of MSF. The HIV prevention program in prisons was transferred to the corrections department years ago. The MSF did a good job, but USAID, Care and many others do an equally good job and don't seem to have quite the same difference in views with the Thai government as did MSF.

At the peak of its activity in 2006, MSF had approximately 230 personnel on station in the Thai theatre. I believe the personnel draw down started in late 2007. Although important contributors at the time, they were but one of many groups inThailand.

In the areas where the MSF was present there are still many other groups of equal quality and reputation providing a more comprehensive menu of services. In effect, the MSF resources were a duplication/triplication of services provided by other qualified NGOs in the same regions.

MSF works as a crisis response group and is best suited for catastrophes. The crisis in medical care delivery and community development is a national crisis that is not addressed by groups like MSF. That is not their mandate. They never claimed it as one. The distinguishing characteristic between other reputable NGOs and MSFis that the other groups train local people and try to build a local infrastructure that can deliver the services. This is not a swipe at MSF, but is an acknowledgement of the existing problems. If Thailand was a hospital,MSF would be the ER doctor. You do not use the doctor to change bedpans or to give an enema.

[annabel]

The pullout is sort of old news and has been going on for 2 years. After the Laotians left/were deported/repatriated, MSF handed over its facilities to UNICEF.

The presence of large numbers of illegal immigrants in Thailand presents both a social and national security problem for Thailand. The view of many Thais is that the presence of NGOs encourages illegals to keep coming to Thailand. The government wants to increase the monitoring and tracking of these illegals and MSF doesn't want to co-operate. The clash with MSF has been going on for over a decade. MSF doesn't want to breach what it believes are the rights of its clients to confidentiality and safe access to care. Thailand says it wants to know what is going on with these people and to have the right to control what foreign NGOs do in Thailand. It wants to know the exact situation regarding carriers of infectious diseases such as TB, HIV etc. More specifically, Thailand believes that MSF is indirectly providing support to Myanmar's insurgents/freedom fighters/terrorists (whatever you want to call them). In fairness to MSF, it is non discriminatory and treats anyone in need of help. However, the Thai military doesn't want any NGO providing assistance to the warring factions even if unintended because it draws Thailand into the ongoing fighting next door. Many of the warring factions are the same people manufacturing and exporting yaba into Thailand.

I believe that both sides in the dispute have legitimate positions. However, Thailand is doing the right thing in terms of its national interest. Consider what would happen if a bunch of Thais showed up in Texas, USA to start providing assistance to undocumented illegal immigrants. How about, if the Thais set up shop in the UK? Would these western countries be willing to waive their medical certification requirements and say, ok, you boys and girls go do your thing, go have a state within a state. MSF has had more freedom to move around and do as it wishes than it would have in any western country.

Thailand has a right to control what goes on inside its borders and MSF does not see it the same way. In any case, The Thai operations have never been an eye catcher because there are no dead bodies or starving kids flopping about in Thailand. Hard to raise money if the donors don't see a problem. MSF has wanted to divert its resources to Africa since the start of the famine, and they should have just said that.

So then ... why does Thailand continue supporting this retched militia Burmese government ...? Why don;t they do something to help these people be free and then they won't have to deal with these illegal immigrants nor have to worry about their National Interests / security ... It's like just now in the USA.... there is one state who just passed a law ( sorry can't remember which state but was on the news today ) that scarred the hell out of all the immigrants there and they left like a heard of cattle in a scurry.... now all the people in that state and mostly the farmers are having a tough time cause they lost all their labor and their crops are dying cause they have nobody to pick the fruits and are begging these illegal so called immigrants to come back ... And don't fool yourself you are also an immigrant in this country !! A legal one but nevertheless an immigrant... I see the day coming soon, very soon , wherin all countires will say .... you are not a native ...= Go home to your own Country.... and this will happen for sure in the very near future.... It will be interesting to see the TV postings when that happens ...

[annabel]

GK made some very good points and I donot usually agree with him but on this I do. Always remember NGOs what ever they are doing have there own agenda just as countries and individuals. if this makes me hard hearted ok by me, they will probably get some treatment in Thailand a lot more than will ever get in burma.

Obviously and evidently ... why else would they run away from their wonderful native place ... Duh!!1

[animatic]

Thanks GK for the informative post.

I have no problem with Thailand booting them out, provided they are planning on providing the care that is desperately needed. Giving medical attention to people is hardly aiding or abetting the enemy. I also doubt that a large % of the people treated by MSF came here specifically for medical care.

tottally agree with the above statment

Though I doubt that a 'large percentage' came specifically for medical care, if you have ever seen medical care in Myanmar, it goes along way to explaining why some might want to see MSF doctors.

All in all this is an own goal for Thailand regardless of the right to control what happens within it's borders. Shot themselves in both feet, pure and simple.

Edited October 4, 2011 by animatic

[animatic]

If Thailand were not one of the countries instrumental in allowing the dictatorship to survive in Burma they probably would not have to deal with a refugee issue in the first place.

Certainly true.

Of course who knows what damage the Myanmar Junta would do in it's death throws, if it thought Thailand was instrumental in causing it. Not meaning they should continue propping it up, but unless China drops Myanmar Thailand won't on it's own.

Edited October 4, 2011 by animatic

[Tokay]

Tragic.

It often seems Thailand is only moving backwards.