Occupy As A Means To Financial Reform

[midas]

OWS is not about abolishing the IRS. Reforming the tax code in a more progressive fashion? Sure.

You are missing the point. If there is no proper legal basis for the IRS to have existed in the first place and therefore no legal basis to collect income tax, how can it be reformed?

[Jingthing]

OWS is not about abolishing the IRS. Reforming the tax code in a more progressive fashion? Sure.

You are missing the point. If there is no proper legal basis for the IRS to have existed in the first place and therefore no legal basis to collect income tax, how can it be reformed?

Maybe you need to start a new thread. Because your radical right wing abolish taxes ideology has NOTHING to do with the goals of OWS.

The notion that there is no legal basis for the IRS taxation system is a tin foil hat favorite as old as the hills, and totally fringe, totally irrelevant, and totally ridulous.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Now for an example of what OWS style protest is really about ... from our Israeli friends.

Israel's OWS type mass left wing social protest movement which of course predated OWS by a long time, has scored a victory for change in Israel.

Street protests really CAN change things.

As you can see, Israel's protest movement is coming from a very similar political place as the USA OWS.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/israel-and-palestine/111031/israel-occupy-wall-street-tax-corporations-rich

Israel to shift tax burden to the rich and corporations

JERUSALEM — Israel’s summertime protest movement, which was occupying “Wall Street” before it was cool, can now celebrate their first major tangible success.

At a Sunday cabinet meeting the government approved the restructuring of Israel’s tax system, shifting a few degrees of the social burden onto corporations and the very rich.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Jingthing

[lovetotravel]

Seems some dissent among the 99% group?

http://money.cnn.com...klash/index.htm

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Occupy Wall Street protesters might say they represent 99% of the nation, but there's a growing number of Americans who are making it clear they are not part of the dissident crowd.

They call themselves the 53%...as in the 53% of Americans who pay federal income taxes. And they are making their voices heard on Tumblr blogs, Twitter and Facebook pages devoted to stories of personal responsibility and work ethic.

The number originates in the estimate that roughly 47% of Americans don't pay federal income tax, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. The 53 percenters stress the fact that they are paying the taxes that support the government assistance the protesters say they want.

[Jingthing]

Nah, just tea partyers making a stink because they have lost traction.

I've already documented that the tea party and OWS are polar opposites and that only 10 percent of Americans support BOTH causes, and clearly they are confused.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Jingthing

[JimGant]

And, behind anarchy curtain number 2 we have the nearly forgotten militia crackpots......

"Federal agents arrested four suspected members of a Georgia militia on charges of plotting attacks with toxins and explosives in Atlanta and against unnamed government officials."

Memorable quotes from these Ron Paul enthusiasts:

"I could shoot ATF and IRS all day long. All the judges and the DOJ and the attorneys and prosecutors."

"When it comes time to saving the Constitution, that means some people have got to die."

"We have a beautiful Constitution! Enforce it !!!!

News like that certainly is more disconcerting than the happenings of the OWS hippies. And some of the posters here are a little scary -- the birthers, 9/11 done by US Gov't, FED killed JFK, and other wackos. And all using borrowed ideas...and having the audacity of accusing JT of being a product of media-think.

Are we missing any TV posters from Georgia? (Not you, midas, your Ozzie twang gets you a pass -- this time.)

[Jingthing]

Here is an interesting argument for a more just capitalism and why the OWS movement is grounded on real and severe inequality. Voting alone isn't going to fix it. We need more and it's great to see the young people wake up again in America.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/justice-inequality-and-the-99-percent/2011/11/02/gIQAcmtdfM_story.html

But the surge in income and wealth inequality we’ve seen in recent decades breaks with this pattern. Virtually all the benefits of growth have gone to the top 1 percent, and ultimately to the top sliver of the top 1 percent, while the rest of the country has stagnated or lost ground. Meanwhile, anyone who’s spent time in high-poverty schools and communities knows that, for all the rhetoric, America’s efforts to make opportunity more equal are a charade.

Our rising inequality, in Rawlsian terms, has plainly not been to the benefit of all.

What’s more, when good chunks of the 1 percent come by their riches via clubby, rigged systems of CEO pay, or by peddling subprime securities that implode and wreck the economy, or by taking taxpayer bailouts and turning them into obscene bonuses, people know something is deeply, systemically corrupt.

Rawls’s message to OWS and its sympathizers wouldn’t be to scrap capitalism. It would be to fix the abuses that make today’s version of U.S. capitalism unjust.

Purge the crony capitalists!

Get serious about equal opportunity!

Make life’s inevitable inequality work for all of us!

[JimGant]

What I don't understand is how US citizens have been duped for so long and why someone with real resources didn't challenge the constitutionality of the IRS long ago?

Christ, midas, do a little more research beyond these fringe reports. Do you really think the constitutionality of the 16th Amendment hasn't been challenged? They've had 102 years to do so.... And, guess what, we're still paying income taxes -- because:

"Sixteenth Amendment ratification arguments have been rejected in every court case where they have been raised and have been identified as legally frivolous."

I'm glad you're a student of America. And I'm sure your perusal of our history shows our ability to forge ahead after any calamity. And we'll lick the current economic crisis -- once rational thinking is restored.

Unfortunately, this thread -- and the similar one running parallel -- show the misguided thinking running amongst the citizenry -- as well as many in Congress. So, it may take another crisis to bring folks to their senses. But, I have no doubt we'll land on our feet.

I would think that you, as an outsider to America, would be a little more objective in your observations. As JT might say: take off your tin foil hat -- and take a real gander at what's what.

By the way, any lessons we Yanks can learn from you Aussies? Start with your central bank (RBA)perhaps....

[waza]

What I don't understand is how US citizens have been duped for so long and why someone with real resources didn't challenge the constitutionality of the IRS long ago?

Christ, midas, do a little more research beyond these fringe reports. Do you really think the constitutionality of the 16th Amendment hasn't been challenged? They've had 102 years to do so.... And, guess what, we're still paying income taxes -- because:

"Sixteenth Amendment ratification arguments have been rejected in every court case where they have been raised and have been identified as legally frivolous."

I'm glad you're a student of America. And I'm sure your perusal of our history shows our ability to forge ahead after any calamity. And we'll lick the current economic crisis -- once rational thinking is restored.

Unfortunately, this thread -- and the similar one running parallel -- show the misguided thinking running amongst the citizenry -- as well as many in Congress. So, it may take another crisis to bring folks to their senses. But, I have no doubt we'll land on our feet.

I would think that you, as an outsider to America, would be a little more objective in your observations. As JT might say: take off your tin foil hat -- and take a real gander at what's what.

By the way, any lessons we Yanks can learn from you Aussies? Start with your central bank (RBA)perhaps....

Hmmm yep and socialist ideas like an universal health care system, social security safety net and bank regulations. You can take back the neoliberalism economics that is poluting our system and has destroyed yours.

[flying]

Memorable quotes from these Ron Paul enthusiasts:

Hey you demoted yourself from party line rhetoric to groundless defamation?

Perhaps you have a link to show these were somehow Ron Paul enthusiasts?

Or better yet a single instance where Ron Paul endorses violence?

Nah ...thought not....just another hollow shell posting.

Ah....then again what original thoughts have you ever actually added to a topic?

Nada

But for now it is just a story & if & when it actually has something to do with the topic I am sure you will let us know.

Does most of your knowledge come from grocery checkout line type papers?

[midas]

What I don't understand is how US citizens have been duped for so long and why someone with real resources didn't challenge the constitutionality of the IRS long ago?

Christ, midas, do a little more research beyond these fringe reports. Do you really think the constitutionality of the 16th Amendment hasn't been challenged? They've had 102 years to do so.... And, guess what, we're still paying income taxes -- because:

"Sixteenth Amendment ratification arguments have been rejected in every court case where they have been raised and have been identified as legally frivolous."

I'm glad you're a student of America. And I'm sure your perusal of our history shows our ability to forge ahead after any calamity. And we'll lick the current economic crisis -- once rational thinking is restored.

Unfortunately, this thread -- and the similar one running parallel -- show the misguided thinking running amongst the citizenry -- as well as many in Congress. So, it may take another crisis to bring folks to their senses. But, I have no doubt we'll land on our feet.

I would think that you, as an outsider to America, would be a little more objective in your observations. As JT might say: take off your tin foil hat -- and take a real gander at what's what.

By the way, any lessons we Yanks can learn from you Aussies? Start with your central bank (RBA)perhaps....

ha ha ha you are so hilarious JimGant when you accuse me of relying on " fringe reports ".

What about that article written by the " anarchistic anthropologist " you quoted not so long ago and you actually seemed to believe him when claimed with such authority that the basic principles of household budgeting

doesn't apply to the government ? And what was even more pathetic were the reasons he gave for his assumptions enough said

Edited November 3, 2011 by midas

[lovetotravel]

What I don't understand is how US citizens have been duped for so long and why someone with real resources didn't challenge the constitutionality of the IRS long ago?

Christ, midas, do a little more research beyond these fringe reports. Do you really think the constitutionality of the 16th Amendment hasn't been challenged? They've had 102 years to do so.... And, guess what, we're still paying income taxes -- because:

"Sixteenth Amendment ratification arguments have been rejected in every court case where they have been raised and have been identified as legally frivolous."

I'm glad you're a student of America. And I'm sure your perusal of our history shows our ability to forge ahead after any calamity. And we'll lick the current economic crisis -- once rational thinking is restored.

Unfortunately, this thread -- and the similar one running parallel -- show the misguided thinking running amongst the citizenry -- as well as many in Congress. So, it may take another crisis to bring folks to their senses. But, I have no doubt we'll land on our feet.

I would think that you, as an outsider to America, would be a little more objective in your observations. As JT might say: take off your tin foil hat -- and take a real gander at what's what.

By the way, any lessons we Yanks can learn from you Aussies? Start with your central bank (RBA)perhaps....

Good comment, Jim. Lots of tinfoilhat.com rhetoric here. I liked this comment about a quote that was never made by a president:

No real way to prove it one way or another. Only that it came to pass really matters. Here is another attributed to him:

I guess facts don't matter???

[midas]

this should be interesting

The People vs. Goldman Sachs - Trial and March!

" On November 3rd, the People, the 99 percent, will hold A People’s Hearing of Goldman Sachs in Liberty Square Park and march on Goldman Sachs! The people will bring to justice perhaps the single most egregious perpetrator of economic fraud and corruption in the United States. The Hearing will include testimonials from individuals directly affected by Goldman’s fraudulent manipulation of financial markets, including victims of housing foreclosures, pension losses, public lay-offs and untenable student debt. "

http://occupywallst.org/article/people-v-goldman-sachs-trail-and-march/

[midas]

Seems some dissent among the 99% group?

http://money.cnn.com...klash/index.htm

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Occupy Wall Street protesters might say they represent 99% of the nation, but there's a growing number of Americans who are making it clear they are not part of the dissident crowd.

They call themselves the 53%...as in the 53% of Americans who pay federal income taxes. And they are making their voices heard on Tumblr blogs, Twitter and Facebook pages devoted to stories of personal responsibility and work ethic.

The number originates in the estimate that roughly 47% of Americans don't pay federal income tax, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. The 53 percenters stress the fact that they are paying the taxes that support the government assistance the protesters say they want.

well I don't think you can rely on anything CNN releases because their world geography

it certainly unimpressive

[Jingthing]

You may have noticed, that ever so gingerly President Obama is associating himself with the majority sentiment of OWS (it goes without saying opposing the radical right wing tea party).

Obama's new web ad against probably opponent, Wall Street Romney.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz1aLR05eb8&feature=player_embedded

[midas]

You may have noticed, that ever so gingerly President Obama is associating himself with the majority sentiment of OWS (it goes without saying opposing the radical right wing tea party).

Obama's new web ad against probably opponent, Wall Street Romney.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz1aLR05eb8&feature=player_embedded

yes Romney is a snake oil merchant and probably an estate agent has more credibility than him..............but as flying says it's the same on both sides of the spectrum

Edited November 3, 2011 by midas

[Jingthing]

Thanks so much for posting a time wasting video from a right wing "birther" fringe group. OMG.

Movie news. I suggest people intested in OWS watch the new move IN TIME. It is science fiction and it's theme about the murderous immorality of the one percent/unregulated capitalism could have been written by an OWS activist.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Jingthing

[flying]

You may have noticed, that ever so gingerly President Obama is associating himself with the majority sentiment of OWS

As I said long ago on needs only look at his campaign contributors.

Now he will try to align with folks upset at those same contributors & govt? :lol:

I have seen this before.... The Real Tea Party before it was hijacked by the Neocons like Palin etc...

Obama & other dems/cheerleaders we see here label OWS ....are the Palin's that will now try to hijack the OWS

Can OWS be turned into a Democratic Party movement?

Politico similarly noted today that “the White House wants to make it clear that President Barack Obama is on the same side as the Occupy Wall Street protesters.”

Can that scheme work? Can the Occupy Wall Street protests be transformed into a get-out-the-vote organ of Obama 2012 and the Democratic Party? To determine if this is likely, let’s review a few relevant facts.

Edited November 3, 2011 by flying

[waza]

Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul said Tuesday that he had mixed feelings about the Occupy Wall Street movement.

“I think it’s both very good, and very risky,” he said in an interview with The Des Moines Register. “I think there are a few that attend these rallies that actually want more government — they want to just tax people more and believe if we just taxed the 1 percent, it could solve all the problems. Read here

Ron Paul Defends Occupy Wall Street and Middle Class at Republican Debate

In the Las Vegas debate last night, Rep. Ron Paul defended Occupy Wall Street protesters against Herman Cain‘s invectives, stating, “Mr. Cain has blamed the victims.” Thank you, Dr. Paul. My link

Edited November 3, 2011 by waza

[flying]

“I think there are a few that attend these rallies that actually want more government — they want to just tax people more and believe if we just taxed the 1 percent, it could solve all the problems.

Well we have some of those folks here & what is scary is they actually believe it.

They truly believe increasing the problem is the cure.

Same group that wants more stimulus too

Edited November 3, 2011 by flying

[Jingthing]

OWS definitely wants more REGULATION of the financial industry. The idea that a nihilist libertarian like Paul imagines he can speak for that movement is galling.

[lovetotravel]

Seems some dissent among the 99% group?

http://money.cnn.com...klash/index.htm

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Occupy Wall Street protesters might say they represent 99% of the nation, but there's a growing number of Americans who are making it clear they are not part of the dissident crowd.

They call themselves the 53%...as in the 53% of Americans who pay federal income taxes. And they are making their voices heard on Tumblr blogs, Twitter and Facebook pages devoted to stories of personal responsibility and work ethic.

The number originates in the estimate that roughly 47% of Americans don't pay federal income tax, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. The 53 percenters stress the fact that they are paying the taxes that support the government assistance the protesters say they want.

well I don't think you can rely on anything CNN releases because their world geography

it certainly unimpressive

Right...that nut job you like who is sponsored by Russia and Iran for sure has much better info.

[flying]

OWS definitely wants more REGULATION of the financial industry. The idea that a nihilist libertarian like Paul imagines he can speak for that movement is galling.

Actually protesters speak for themselves better than X-pats/hijackers in another country all together

In New York, about 100 military veterans marched in uniform and stopped in front of the New York Stock Exchange, standing in loose formation as police officers on scooters separated them from the entrance. On the other side was a lineup of NYPD horses carrying officers with nightsticks.

"We are marching to express support for our brother, (Iraq war veteran) Scott Olsen, who was injured in Oakland," said Jerry Bordeleau, a former Army specialist who served in Iraq through 2009.

The veterans were also angry that returned from war to find few job prospects.

"Wall Street corporations have played a big role in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," said Bordeleau, now a college student. He said private contractors have reaped big profits in those countries.

Edited November 3, 2011 by flying

[flying]

Ron Paul Defends Occupy Wall Street and Middle Class at Republican Debate

In the Las Vegas debate last night, Rep. Ron Paul defended Occupy Wall Street protesters against Herman Cain‘s invectives, stating, “Mr. Cain has blamed the victims.” Thank you, Dr. Paul. My link

That link you posted (called My Link) has very good comments from its readers.

Edited November 3, 2011 by flying

[JimGant]

Perhaps you have a link to show these were somehow Ron Paul enthusiasts?

Nah, just connecting the dots, based on some Paul newsletters:

Paul’s newsletters didn’t just contain bigotry. They also contained paranoia–specifically, the brand of anti-government paranoia that festered among right-wing militia groups during the 1980s and ’90s. Indeed, the newsletters seemed to hint that armed revolution against the federal government would be justified. In January 1995, three months before right-wing militants bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, a newsletter listed “Ten Militia Commandments,” describing “the 1,500 local militias now training to defend liberty” as “one of the most encouraging developments in America.” It warned militia members that they were “possibly under BATF [bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms] or other totalitarian federal surveillance” and printed bits of advice from the Sons of Liberty, an anti-government militia based in Alabama–among them, “You can’t kill a Hydra by cutting off its head,” “Keep the group sizedown,” “Keep quiet and you’re harder to find,” “Leave no clues,” “Avoid the phone as much as possible,” and “Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.”

See http://thevirtuousrepublic.com/?p=120 which has a link to the actual newsletters, in case you think the skinny on Paul is just editorial blarney.

(However, I do applaud Paul's position on our over-extension in the world.)

As far as being a bit off topic, yeah. However, somewhat relevant, as the flip side of the coin that some in OWS subscribe to. And, the fact that Paul supports some of what OWS is all about. (I guess he gets a 'warm, fuzzy' wherever he encounters anarchy.)

[flying]

Perhaps you have a link to show these were somehow Ron Paul enthusiasts?

Nah, just connecting the dots, based on some Paul newsletters:

See http://thevirtuousrepublic.com/?p=120 which has a link to the actual newsletters, in case you think the skinny on Paul is just editorial blarney.

No actually your connecting opinions based on opinions.

Try following your supposed links to actual newsletters before posting them.

Better yet read a book not a fan site & see in his own words what he stands for/thinks.

Get it 1st hand.....not through the usual prisms/BS

[waza]

Ron Paul Defends Occupy Wall Street and Middle Class at Republican Debate

In the Las Vegas debate last night, Rep. Ron Paul defended Occupy Wall Street protesters against Herman Cain's invectives, stating, "Mr. Cain has blamed the victims." Thank you, Dr. Paul. My link

That link you posted (called My Link) has very good comments from its readers.

I like some of what Ron Paul says and I think some of his ideas have merit, but he is a firm believer in neoliberal economics. Its because of deregulation that we have such an un-even distribution of wealth, I say forget the trickel down effect, regulate the banks and tax the rich. The financial instutions are meant to serve the people not control them.

Edited November 3, 2011 by waza

[waza]

Occupy Alaska”: While Sarah Palin Looks To Russia in Her Backyard, Alaskan Protesters See New York City from Their Fronts ................They want to see the end of corporate greed, excess lobbying and the political posturing that is crippling our government. But most of all, the protestors agree that the "protest is the message." By occupying their own communal spaces, the protestors are making a "Declaration of Interdependence." They are saying, "We are in this together; we care about our fellow Americans who are getting a bum deal. We are Americans too and we want to participate in the democratic process." While politicians are saying little with their mouths, protestors across the world are stomping out this message with their feet. My link

[flying]

I like some of what Ron Paul says and I think some of his ideas have merit, but he is a firm believer in neoliberal economics. Its because of deregulation that we have such an un-even distribution of wealth, I say forget the trickel down effect, regulate the banks and tax the rich. The financial instutions are meant to serve the people not control them.

I don't want to get off topic & make this about Ron Paul so all I will say is read his books to get 1st hand understanding about what he thinks/proposes.

Many folks have a false impression of his stand on taxes & confuse personal income taxes with all taxes.

Same as some misrepresent his stand on Israel aid with an anti Jewish stance. Could not be further from the truth & it is the same stance he has on Egypt, Palestine,Japan etc... He believes we are in no position to hand out financial & military aid.

Humanitarian aid OF COURSE

But aid to those who use it to suppress others or not stand on their own two feet when we are crippled? No Way!

Aid to those who are our creditors & yet they do not count the aid towards our debt? No Way!

Lastly in regards to tax the rich....I am of course for equal burdens for all not just some....That is not to say I agree with those that think taxing a small sector more will so much as put a small dent in the bigger problem.

Anyone capable of basic math will see by looking at government spending & then try to imagine it could so much as be nicked by taxing anyone & everyone.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

http://costofwar.com/en/

Instead ask questions like why in this day & age we have 75,000 troops in Germany? Germany???

That is just one example of many many examples.

Edited November 3, 2011 by flying

[waza]

I like some of what Ron Paul says and I think some of his ideas have merit, but he is a firm believer in neoliberal economics. Its because of deregulation that we have such an un-even distribution of wealth, I say forget the trickel down effect, regulate the banks and tax the rich. The financial instutions are meant to serve the people not control them.

I don't want to get off topic & make this about Ron Paul so all I will say is read his books to get 1st hand understanding about what he thinks/proposes.

Many folks have a false impression of his stand on taxes & confuse personal income taxes with all taxes.

Same as some misrepresent his stand on Israel aid with an anti Jewish stance. Could not be further from the truth & it is the same stance he has on Egypt, Palestine,Japan etc... He believes we are in no position to hand out financial & military aid.

Humanitarian aid OF COURSE

But aid to those who use it to suppress others or not stand on their own two feet when we are crippled? No Way!

Aid to those who are our creditors & yet they do not count the aid towards our debt? No Way!

Lastly in regards to tax the rich....I am of course for equal burdens for all not just some....That is not to say I agree with those that think taxing a small sector more will so much as put a small dent in the bigger problem.

Anyone capable of basic math will see by looking at government spending & then try to imagine it could so much as be nicked by taxing anyone & everyone.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Instead ask questions like why in this day & age we have 75,000 troops in Germany? Germany???

That is just one example of many many examples.

I would say its because 43% of the worlds military budget is spent by the USA. Why? Because of the Military-Industrial Complex, it is described as an all-too friendly relationship that may develop between defense contractors and government forces, where both sides receive what they are perceivably looking for: a successful military engagement for warplanners and financial profit for those manning the corporate boardrooms. It can be viewed as a "war for profit" theory.My link

Just another example of how industries and companies control the government and profit from your taxes.

Edited November 3, 2011 by waza