The First Red Shirt District Officially Opened And Recognized Today

[TAWP]

Does any of your non-democratic rantings, your obvious disregard for peoples right to disagree with your cheer-leading, has anything to do with the topic: That the first Red Shirt district has opened and being recognized by Red shirt MPs?

TAWP, have a look again at your statement "your obvious disregard for peoples right to disagree with your cheer-leading". Now on reflection, wouldn't you agree that is precisely what you are displaying?

Absolutely not - obviously you haven't been reading the posts I was referring too. They where saying that people should leave Thailand since a government that some of us doesn't agree with is now in power and they don't want people to express the dislike of the government.

I have never told anyone disagreeing with this or previous governments to leave. That is the crucial difference.

[TAWP]

The only undemocratic thing here i can see here are the vitriolic posts of the Red Shirt haters.

Perhaps you need to look up what being part of a democracy means. It is not 'everyone should agree'. Or 'everyone needs to post only nice and kind posts'. Or 'people are only allowed to post if they say nice things'.

[nicknostitz]

The only undemocratic thing here i can see here are the vitriolic posts of the Red Shirt haters.

Perhaps you need to look up what being part of a democracy means. It is not 'everyone should agree'. Or 'everyone needs to post only nice and kind posts'. Or 'people are only allowed to post if they say nice things'.

Freedom of speech is a main principle of Democracy.

Inciting hatred though is not covered under this principle. Many of the posts here attacking the Red Shirts, and posters that do not express this hatred of the Red Shirts clearly crosses this limit.

Again - you are free to disagree with the Red Shirts, and to criticize them (and yes- there is much to criticize), but comparing the Red Shirt villages to a Pol Pot system or to the Nazis not just trivializes the victims of those dictatorships, there also is just no evidence whatsoever that justifies such accusations. Therefore, again, i ask all of you who express these views to substantiate them with more evidence than your opinions.

Edited October 11, 2011 by nicknostitz

[h90]

The only undemocratic thing here i can see here are the vitriolic posts of the Red Shirt haters.

Perhaps you need to look up what being part of a democracy means. It is not 'everyone should agree'. Or 'everyone needs to post only nice and kind posts'. Or 'people are only allowed to post if they say nice things'.

Freedom of speech is a main principle of Democracy.

Inciting hatred though is not covered under this principle. Many of the posts here attacking the Red Shirts, and posters that do not express this hatred of the Red Shirts clearly crosses this limit.

Again - you are free to disagree with the Red Shirts, and to criticize them (and yes- there is much to criticize), but comparing the Red Shirt villages to a Pol Pot system or to the Nazis not just trivializes the victims of those dictatorships, there also is just no evidence whatsoever that justifies such accusations. Therefore, again, i ask all of you who express these views to substantiate them with more evidence than your opinions.

Yes you are a nice example of the extreme left wing (same for the extreme right) opinion of freedom of speech!

Freedom of speech for my opinion.

Every other opinion is a terrible harmful lie and not covered by this freedom

[SpoliaOpima]

As for embarrassed, I'm much more embarrassed when encountering the sort of reaction in foreigners who share the Red mantra in thinking violence is the solution:

And where are these foreigners who believe red violence is the solution? I don't know any and I certainly haven't seen any such opinions expressed on this forum.

Nick Nostitz for one, who only a page or two previously explained away the Redshirt Village system as a way to prepare for a change of government they might not like. He and they want it both ways, claiming to trust democracy yet not playing by democratic rules.

Some might even describe the recent slim PT victory as a Red coup by proxy, influencing the vote because, by God if you don't vote PT we will illegally occupy another business district for two and a half months, burn another 50+ buildings down, cause dozens of businesses to close permanently, put another 10,000 people out of work and cost the economy another several billion in lost earnings.

[chooka]

Some on here are still living in and have the cold war mentality. If someone supports the freedoms of Thais to do and say what they want in thier own country then they are branded a "Red Lover" as in the cold war people were branded commie lovers. I do not support red's, yellows or whoever but I do support thier basic rights and freedoms to do as they please within the law in thier country. Some on here if they had thier way they would restrict these freedoms of how Thai's live thier lives as they do not match thier personal farang ideology for thier own little utopia. This is not our country and we are not prisoners here. If a hoard of foreigners came into your country and starting dictating how this should be done and what you can and can't do I am sure that you would tell them to bugger off in not so polite terms. Some will argue that they are speaking for Thailand and Thais and they know what is best for them. Do you really know what is best for them and did they ask you to speak for them? I would guess some speak for themselves and what they think is best for them and thier own little utopia in someone elses backyard.

Well you know what? You're right, this is their country. I definitely do not support the Red Shirts. I do however support a military coup should the present government continue on its present path. Who are certain farangs to complain about coups since this is a common occurrance and part of Thailand? This is after all their country.

You know what I agree with George also. I also do not support the reds or anyone either but I would not support a military coup to overthrow the government.There are other alternatives before staging a coup. The Queen of England can dismiss the Australian Government and has done so before. Isn't a coup forcing ones political agenda onto to others just as the anti red shirts are complaining about so to say you would support a coup is being a tad hypocritical.

Edited October 11, 2011 by chooka

[bigbamboo]

Here's the real dilemma for my wife. She doesn't mind the red shirts but the colour just isn't her. What's a girl to do?

Edited October 11, 2011 by bigbamboo

[gl555]

<br />

<br />

<br />The only undemocratic thing here i can see here are the vitriolic posts of the Red Shirt haters.<br />

<br /><br />Perhaps you need to look up what being part of a democracy means. It is not 'everyone should agree'. Or 'everyone needs to post only nice and kind posts'. Or 'people are only allowed to post if they say nice things'.<br />

<br /><br /><br />Freedom of speech is a main principle of Democracy.<br />Inciting hatred though is not covered under this principle. Many of the posts here attacking the Red Shirts, and posters that do not express this hatred of the Red Shirts clearly crosses this limit.<br />Again - you are free to disagree with the Red Shirts, and to criticize them (and yes- there is much to criticize), but comparing the Red Shirt villages to a Pol Pot system or to the Nazis not just trivializes the victims of those dictatorships, there also is just no evidence whatsoever that justifies such accusations. Therefore, again, i ask all of you who express these views to substantiate them with more evidence than your opinions.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

How ironic you should mention inciting hatred as not being part of freedom of speech. Have you been to the Red Shirt rallies where the leaders encouraged the mob to burn this city down? Are you going to dismiss the Youtube videos of this 'free speech' as fake?

[AndyDandy]

The recent article noting that most Red-haters are sexpats seemed to be on the money -- afraid of another morality push like Thaksin tried.

[Buchholz]

The recent article noting that most Red-haters are sexpats seemed to be on the money -- afraid of another morality push like Thaksin tried.

It wasn't Thaksin that tried. He's the most amoral Thai there is.

.

oh, and

Edited October 11, 2011 by Buchholz

[TAWP]

The only undemocratic thing here i can see here are the vitriolic posts of the Red Shirt haters.

Perhaps you need to look up what being part of a democracy means. It is not 'everyone should agree'. Or 'everyone needs to post only nice and kind posts'. Or 'people are only allowed to post if they say nice things'.

Freedom of speech is a main principle of Democracy.

Inciting hatred though is not covered under this principle. Many of the posts here attacking the Red Shirts, and posters that do not express this hatred of the Red Shirts clearly crosses this limit.

Again - you are free to disagree with the Red Shirts, and to criticize them (and yes- there is much to criticize), but comparing the Red Shirt villages to a Pol Pot system or to the Nazis not just trivializes the victims of those dictatorships, there also is just no evidence whatsoever that justifies such accusations. Therefore, again, i ask all of you who express these views to substantiate them with more evidence than your opinions.

You started off good.

Then you fell off to the side.

Outspoken criticism isn't inciting hatred. It might be a result from it - but it still isn't inciting it.

In anyway - you are ofcourse still wrong. Comparing the Red Shirts to Pol Pots boys or Nazi thugs is clearly well within the basic accepted space of Freedom of Speech in most western nations.

That you want to outlaw any language that you don't like says more about you and your lack of respect for basic human rights - you are an Authoritarian.

Atleast own up to your leanings.

[jayboy]

Any explanation that does not conform to your hate mongering you swipe away as "Thaksin apologists" or "Red cheerleading". This behavior in any normal human conversation between grown ups in real life would be the end of the conversation, but as this is the internet...

I wouldn't react too much to Yoshiwara's language.He has been using these terms for as long as I can remember about those he disagrees with.It's been pointed out multiple times but with no apparent effect.Save your ammunition for a less silly opponent.

Moving away to the general point you are right there is a great deal of psychotic hatred around, but to be fair I think it has infected all sides.The Sino Thai middle/urban class is perhaps more visible be abuse of their use of social media, but I have heard equally unacceptable language on the Red side.

[scorecard]

So much hatred for the redshirts and the way thai's are trying to live thier lives in thier country. What have the thais done to you people personally to breed such hatred? If you have such destest and hatred of the country and the people why are you here?

+1

This is a democracy and we are guests here. They vote and we can like it or not. But the bottom line is: Leave if you you will!

I wish most of you would!

Tiger

+2

The thai people voted in an election and it seems this has upset a lot of foreigners because they did get the government they wanted in a country that is not even thier own. Boo Hoo the yellow shirts didn't win. I have to agree there does seem to be a lot of hatred for thai people who do not support the views of the foreigners or do things the way a farang would do it. There is always an option if you do not agree with or like the Thai lifestyle.

Suggest you do a lot more research. The many farangs who post here are not aiming for the government of THEIR choice, they are mostly people who have family here and are concerned for the long-term security etc., of their loved ones.

And again we see the old falicy, if your not red therefore your yellow.

Not hatred, but strong strong dislike might be more appropriate, but each to his own. And it's not hatred of the rural poor, most of whom have been totally duped by clowns like jatuporn and his ruthless corrupt boss.

Most of the folks who post negatively in fact strongly recognize that there is extreme inequality and it does urgently need addressing, but see the red shirts like jatuporn, veera, arisman etc., as having no no credibility whatever as a sincere force for logical and structured change.

Can you quote one occasion where jatuporn and his gang have ever given an insightful presentation about the inequality and how to address it.

Jatuporn and his gang, and the big boss bandy words like democracy, equal justice, no double standards, but they are totally hollow words.

[philw]

In anyway - you are of course still wrong. Comparing the Red Shirts to Pol Pots boys or Nazi thugs is clearly well within the basic accepted space of Freedom of Speech in most western nations.

Yes indeed, but utterly nonsensical.

The comparison is ludicrous.

[TAWP]

Yes indeed, but utterly nonsensical.

The comparison is ludicrous.

Even if ludicrous or unfair - it is not illegal nor something that shouldn't be allowed.

Unless of is an Authoritarian that dislikes free speech for the people.

Threads like this one is so good in exposing people just what truly are.

I might not agree with what you have to say but I staunchly defend your right to say it.

[nicknostitz]

Yes indeed, but utterly nonsensical.

The comparison is ludicrous.

Even if ludicrous or unfair - it is not illegal nor something that shouldn't be allowed.

Unless of is an Authoritarian that dislikes free speech for the people.

Threads like this one is so good in exposing people just what truly are.

I might not agree with what you have to say but I staunchly defend your right to say it.

I have not advocated not to allow these comments, i just find them to be utterly distasteful, ill-mannered, and completely unsubstantiated and furthermore inciting hatred against the Red Shirts and anyone who does not follow the Thaivisa majority view of hating Red Shirts, and therefore - yes, i fully agree that these threats are good for exposing people and their level of tolerance.

Anyhow, as this is disintegrating into the usual bickering i think i will not comment any further, unless someone counters my previous post about the Red Shirt village movement with substantiated criticism, which, by the way, i would welcome, for the sake of a good intellectual challenge.

"Red Shirt cheerleader", etc... sorry, but i am not going that low.

See 'ya.

[philw]

Yes indeed, but utterly nonsensical.

The comparison is ludicrous.

Even if ludicrous or unfair - it is not illegal nor something that shouldn't be allowed.

Unless of is an Authoritarian that dislikes free speech for the people.

Threads like this one is so good in exposing people just what truly are.

I might not agree with what you have to say but I staunchly defend your right to say it.

Absolutely, but that does not diminish the irrelevant, nonsensical and pathetic comparison that was made.

[ianf]

So much hatred for the redshirts (red shirts) and the way thai's (Thais) are trying to live thier (their) lives in thier (their) country. What have the thais (Thais) done to you people personally to breed such hatred? If you have such destest (detest) and hatred of the country and the people why are you here?

Because some people have the nouse to actually understand what this is all about.

[philw]

So much hatred for the redshirts (red shirts) and the way thai's (Thais) are trying to live thier (their) lives in thier (their) country. What have the thais (Thais) done to you people personally to breed such hatred? If you have such destest (detest) and hatred of the country and the people why are you here?

Because some people have the nouse to actually understand what this is all about.

Which is what exactly ???

[rubl]

So much hatred for the redshirts (red shirts) and the way thai's (Thais) are trying to live thier (their) lives in thier (their) country. What have the thais (Thais) done to you people personally to breed such hatred? If you have such destest (detest) and hatred of the country and the people why are you here?

Because some people have the nouse to actually understand what this is all about.

Which is what exactly ???

According to my friend Nick this

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=4754669

Of course 'just because most are red-shirt in a village' and 'just in case of a coup' seems to ignore the other reason 'get back k. Thaksin'. That's why the Pheu Thai UDD leader MPs were present. Remember the "Thaksin thinks, Pheu Thai acts' ? All in name of 'defending the democracy' of course

[elcent]

I have not advocated not to allow these comments, i just find them to be utterly distasteful, ill-mannered, and completely unsubstantiated and furthermore inciting hatred against the Red Shirts and anyone who does not follow the Thaivisa majority view of hating Red Shirts, and therefore - yes, i fully agree that these threats are good for exposing people and their level of tolerance.

Anyhow, as this is disintegrating into the usual bickering i think i will not comment any further, unless someone counters my previous post about the Red Shirt village movement with substantiated criticism, which, by the way, i would welcome, for the sake of a good intellectual challenge.

"Red Shirt cheerleader", etc... sorry, but i am not going that low.

See 'ya.

Imagine the extreme left - or rightwing in Germany or any other group would declare a district as theirs. What would happen? All the alarm bells would be ringing. If you think a bit deeper you must admit that it has a touch of militant staging. As we all know it will not stop at the declaration alone. I'm pretty confident that some agencies keep a very close eye on that and they eventually will carve out individuals. No coup needed. The law is sufficient for this kind of interruptions.

It would be interesting to see a transscript of Jutaporn's speech that could shine some more enlightment into this issue. If the media has not exagerated with this issue then I think legal action will follow.

When you pass by the DSI headquarte you won't see police or guards, but a manned army tent.

This is probably for protecting ongoing investigation of whatever sort and not be interrupted by any one.

Edited October 11, 2011 by elcent

[tonbridgebrit]

In the UK governments are not voted in, they are formed from elected MPs. Same for Thailand. The argument here is not ridiculing or laughing at locals. It is, however, difficult not to laugh at the antics of the red leadership such as Jatuporn and the wet arguments put up by the forum Thaksin apologists. The ridicule is saved for the red cheerleaders who are in a hole and still keep digging.

This post is exactly what "ridiculing locals" means.

There are many arguments that can be brought against Thaksin and this government (elected by locals), yet you and your ilk ridicule the choice of those locals, not even bothering to come up with a coherent argument. Reading through this forum i am reminded of why at times here in Thailand i am deeply embarrassed to be a westerner that lives here.

<snip>

So now the red foreign cheerleaders are classed as "locals". Interesting.

And that ridiculing the damaging efforts of a Jatuporn or an Arisaman somehow requires additional coherence as to why it's damaging. Also interesting.

As for embarrassed, I'm much more embarrassed when encountering the sort of reaction in foreigners who share the Red mantra in thinking violence is the solution:

<snip>

we the British people would throw away our traditional 'British reserve' and shove those words up where the sun don't shine.

<snip>

after a few beers in a few bars, I might revert back to how I think and feel when back home !!!

Hello there, are you from the USA ?!

The point I'm trying to make, is, if I was in America (working there,on permanent holiday, or retired), I would never say that 'Americans are silly and foolish for voting whatever political leader they've got' . Can you imagine how people in the USA, or any country, would feel if they noticed a bunch of foreigners saying or writing such stuff ?! Most people in America would respond with 'You're not one of us, you're a foreigner, and you claim we're foolish for voting the party we have voted for, please do not start thinking that you know what's better for us, you're not actually more brainy than we are'.

If you was back home in America, or whatever country you're from, surely, this is how you would feel when you notice foreigners (who live in your country) saying or writing such stuff ! And if I was working/staying in America, I would sympathise/cheer on people like you (when you feel stressed about foreigners in your country saying such things).

[nicknostitz]

I have not advocated not to allow these comments, i just find them to be utterly distasteful, ill-mannered, and completely unsubstantiated and furthermore inciting hatred against the Red Shirts and anyone who does not follow the Thaivisa majority view of hating Red Shirts, and therefore - yes, i fully agree that these threats are good for exposing people and their level of tolerance.

Anyhow, as this is disintegrating into the usual bickering i think i will not comment any further, unless someone counters my previous post about the Red Shirt village movement with substantiated criticism, which, by the way, i would welcome, for the sake of a good intellectual challenge.

"Red Shirt cheerleader", etc... sorry, but i am not going that low.

See 'ya.

Imagine the extreme left - or rightwing in Germany or any other group would declare a district as theirs. What would happen? All the alarm bells would be ringing. If you think a bit deeper you must admit that it has a touch of militant staging. As we all know it will not stop at the declaration alone. I'm pretty confident that some agencies keep a very close eye on that and they eventually will carve out individuals. No coup needed. The law is sufficient for this kind of interruptions.

It would be interesting to see a transscript of Jutaporn's speech that could shine some more enlightment into this issue. If the media has not exagerated with this issue then I think legal action will follow.

When you pass by the DSI headquarte you won't see police or guards, but a manned army tent.

This is probably for protecting ongoing investigation of whatever sort and not be interrupted by any one.

If the extreme right or left in Germany would declare a district as "theirs" i would indeed be more than concerned. I am concerned that there are some districts in some structurally weaker parst of east Germany, which are de facto in the hand of the extreme right, and very unsafe for foreigners. But is difficult to compare Thailand with today's Germany. The social conflict today in Thailand has certain parallels with social conflicts in Austria/Hungary and the German Empire in the late 19th century.

But i do not see the majority Red Shirts propagating any extremist political view points. Unless you call their stand against military intervention in politics and demands for acceptance of elections extremist.

Militant staging, well, this really depends on the future developments of this conflict. If it stays within parliamentary confines, and elections, then there will be no reason for any sort of militancy. And if there would be, then of course the Red Shirts would be in the wrong.

But, if there is another military coup, then i fear that the coup makers will meet formidable resistance, possibly even armed, and these Red Shirt villages will be quite important parts of support networks for a armed resistance against a coup. Don't forget that the 2006 military coup is still very much in the mind of the Red Shirts, and they are terrified of the possibility of another coup in the future. When people such as Sqdr. Ld. Prasong Soonsiri ( http://en.wikipedia....rasong_Soonsiri ) warn about possible coups, which he has done recently, this is indeed a possibility.

A question i would like to ask you? Do you think that in case of the military overthrowing an elected government, do citizens have a right to resist such a coup, with whatever means they see fit? What would be the circumstances they would have a right to resist, and what would be the circumstances they do not have a right. Of course, in your opinion, and only a theoretical question.

And yes, many agencies do keep a close watch on this. Some agencies, such as Special Branch do this as part of their duty - which is the security of the state. In which i do not see any problem whatsoever. Any such developments have to be watched, in order to see where they go.

The ISOC keeps a close watch on this as well. There i see a problem, as ISOC is only nominally under the authority of the Government, but in reality is an entity that is only supervised by the military. In keeping watch ISOC has many times overstepped their duties by far - such as (unsuccessfully) attempting to build certain volunteer organizations poised against Pueah Thai and the Red Shirts, such as attempting to pressure people to vote for the Democrats in elections (both 2007 and now in 2011), etc. There is much going on that is not written about in the mass media, or not fully investigated by journalists.

The DSI is presently not doing many of the key investigations into last year's events anymore. The important investigations have now been handed over to the police. It is quite complex - low level DSI investigators have done quite a good job, considering the circumstances, in their investigations, but their higher echelons have been obfuscating many of their own investigation results when they did not come to the desired results. The past 8 months the DSI has done almost nothing with cases against the military that were more or less fully investigated. Only now, since a month or so suddenly these cases saw some movement again.

Also, if you look at the case of the death of Hiro, the Japanese cameraman, Tharit, the head of the DSI, has done wondrous 180 degree turns. At first investigation results clearly pointed to the bullet having been a 5.56 Nato round (which corresponded to a secret Reuters investigation). Then suddenly, after a rumored visit by a top level soldier, Tharit suddenly came up with an "expert" who has never seen the corpse, but declared the bullet having been most definately a 7.62 bullet (MIB also used AK 47's, which uses that bullet). Now, after the change of government, Tharit has suddenly stated again, as the first result has shown, that there was a very likelihood of security forces having been responsible for the death of Hiro. And of course, Tharit, who as a member of CRES one of the accused (speak of conflict of interest - accused but heading the main investigation entity...), has managed to keep his job, so far.

Anyhow - it makes your head dizzy. Without intimate knowledge of the details it is almost impossible to make up your mind what really went on, is going on, and may happen in the future. Even knowing many details predicting the future is quite uncertain.

And yes, it would be very good to see a transcript of Jatuporn's speech. Have you ever noticed that in the past years of conflict the Thai mass media, especially the English language media, has never once brought transcripts of Red Shirt leader's speeches. You will have to go alternative websites to see that occasionally. But these websites here on Thaivisa are usually dismissed as "Red cheerleader websites". There are all sorts of speeches on Red Shirt stages, and some are even quite inspired. I can only suggest to go and listen for yourself, to make up your own mind - unfiltered by media or opinions.

[TAWP]

Yes indeed, but utterly nonsensical.

The comparison is ludicrous.

Even if ludicrous or unfair - it is not illegal nor something that shouldn't be allowed.

Unless of is an Authoritarian that dislikes free speech for the people.

Threads like this one is so good in exposing people just what truly are.

I might not agree with what you have to say but I staunchly defend your right to say it.

I have not advocated not to allow these comments, i just find them to be utterly distasteful, ill-mannered, and completely unsubstantiated and furthermore inciting hatred against the Red Shirts and anyone who does not follow the Thaivisa majority view of hating Red Shirts, and therefore - yes, i fully agree that these threats are good for exposing people and their level of tolerance.

Anyhow, as this is disintegrating into the usual bickering i think i will not comment any further, unless someone counters my previous post about the Red Shirt village movement with substantiated criticism, which, by the way, i would welcome, for the sake of a good intellectual challenge.

"Red Shirt cheerleader", etc... sorry, but i am not going that low.

See 'ya.

And again he runs off.

You say you have not advocated not allowing the comments, alright...but you did say:

The only undemocratic thing here i can see here are the vitriolic posts of the Red Shirt haters.

Which is utter nonsense.

[nicknostitz]

[

And again he runs off.

As you can see i haven't.

I am just not willing to play your little games. Respond to me when you have something to contribute to the topic.

But otherwise - stop stalking me, please.

[TAWP]

[

And again he runs off.

As you can see i haven't.

I am just not willing to play your little games. Respond to me when you have something to contribute to the topic.

But otherwise - stop stalking me, please.

Nick, when you make statements as:

The only undemocratic thing here i can see here are the vitriolic posts of the Red Shirt haters.

I will object.

If you cannot take that maybe you should write more books I will not read and hold more speeches to small groups I will not attend.

[gl555]

I have not advocated not to allow these comments, i just find them to be utterly distasteful, ill-mannered, and completely unsubstantiated and furthermore inciting hatred against the Red Shirts and anyone who does not follow the Thaivisa majority view of hating Red Shirts, and therefore - yes, i fully agree that these threats are good for exposing people and their level of tolerance.

Anyhow, as this is disintegrating into the usual bickering i think i will not comment any further, unless someone counters my previous post about the Red Shirt village movement with substantiated criticism, which, by the way, i would welcome, for the sake of a good intellectual challenge.

"Red Shirt cheerleader", etc... sorry, but i am not going that low.

See 'ya.

Imagine the extreme left - or rightwing in Germany or any other group would declare a district as theirs. What would happen? All the alarm bells would be ringing. If you think a bit deeper you must admit that it has a touch of militant staging. As we all know it will not stop at the declaration alone. I'm pretty confident that some agencies keep a very close eye on that and they eventually will carve out individuals. No coup needed. The law is sufficient for this kind of interruptions.

It would be interesting to see a transscript of Jutaporn's speech that could shine some more enlightment into this issue. If the media has not exagerated with this issue then I think legal action will follow.

When you pass by the DSI headquarte you won't see police or guards, but a manned army tent.

This is probably for protecting ongoing investigation of whatever sort and not be interrupted by any one.

And yes, it would be very good to see a transcript of Jatuporn's speech. Have you ever noticed that in the past years of conflict the Thai mass media, especially the English language media, has never once brought transcripts of Red Shirt leader's speeches. You will have to go alternative websites to see that occasionally. But these websites here on Thaivisa are usually dismissed as "Red cheerleader websites". There are all sorts of speeches on Red Shirt stages, and some are even quite inspired. I can only suggest to go and listen for yourself, to make up your own mind - unfiltered by media or opinions.

Oh yes, we have youtube and we've listened to the speeches where the leaders told the Red sheep to burn Bangkok to the ground. My Thai isn't perfect but that's what they said. Unfiltered and very inspiring indeed. It was like listening to Churchill or Kennedy.

[nicknostitz]

Oh yes, we have youtube and we've listened to the speeches where the leaders told the Red sheep to burn Bangkok to the ground. My Thai isn't perfect but that's what they said. Unfiltered and very inspiring indeed. It was like listening to Churchill or Kennedy.

Here, for example, is another speech by Nattawut:

http://asiapacific.a...%99t-televised/

From the earth to the sky

Natthawut Saikua

..We're denied many things. We're denied justice; respect in the way governmental bodies treat us; accurate and direct reporting about us in the media. We're denied the chance to openly declare our fight – to openly and directly declare, with our clarity and sincerity, what it is that we are fighting for.

What's most important for us all to remember, brothers and sisters, is that we are the salt of the earth. We are the people with no privileges.

We were born on the land. We grew up on the land. Each step that we take is on this same land. We stand, with our two feet planted here, so far away from the sky.

Tilting our heads fully upwards, we gaze at the sky, and we realise how far away that sky is.

Standing on this land, we only have to look down to realise that we are worth no more than a handful of earth.

But I believe in the power of the redshirts. I believe our number is growing day-by-day, minute-by-minute. Even though we stand on this land, and we speak out from our place among the earth, our voice will rise to the sky. Of this I have no doubt.

The voice we're making now – our cries and shouts – is the voice of people who are worth only a handful of earth. But it is the voice of the people who were born and grew up on this land, and it will rise to the level of the sky.

We, the redshirts, want to say to the land and sky that we too have heart and soul. We, the redshirts, want to remind the land and sky that we too are the Thai people. We, the redshirts, want to ask the land and sky whether we have been condemned to seek, by ourselves, a rightful place to plant our feet here..

Edited October 11, 2011 by nicknostitz

[sbk]

I was going to go through and delete the little pointless exchange going on here but thought perhaps it would be better to give the two protagonists a chance to learn to mind their manners and hold a debate in a civil manner without resorting to taunts, jibes, baiting and more, And yes I see this as coming from both sides.

And I would also like to point out that there are two sides to every story and if you don't like the facts or opinions one side points out that rebuts your own, man up and accept it for what it is rather than complaining and flaming

Keep it civil and there wont' be a problem, continue the antagonistic poking at each other and I will simply suspend the both of you for a week to give you a chance to calm down.

I will be back shortly to check on this thread, so do mind your manners.

[gl555]

Oh yes, we have youtube and we've listened to the speeches where the leaders told the Red sheep to burn Bangkok to the ground. My Thai isn't perfect but that's what they said. Unfiltered and very inspiring indeed. It was like listening to Churchill or Kennedy.

Here, for example, is another speech by Nattawut:

http://asiapacific.a...%99t-televised/

From the earth to the sky

Natthawut Saikua

..We're denied many things. We're denied justice; respect in the way governmental bodies treat us; accurate and direct reporting about us in the media. We're denied the chance to openly declare our fight – to openly and directly declare, with our clarity and sincerity, what it is that we are fighting for.

What's most important for us all to remember, brothers and sisters, is that we are the salt of the earth. We are the people with no privileges.

We were born on the land. We grew up on the land. Each step that we take is on this same land. We stand, with our two feet planted here, so far away from the sky.

Tilting our heads fully upwards, we gaze at the sky, and we realise how far away that sky is.

Standing on this land, we only have to look down to realise that we are worth no more than a handful of earth.

But I believe in the power of the redshirts. I believe our number is growing day-by-day, minute-by-minute. Even though we stand on this land, and we speak out from our place among the earth, our voice will rise to the sky. Of this I have no doubt.

The voice we're making now – our cries and shouts – is the voice of people who are worth only a handful of earth. But it is the voice of the people who were born and grew up on this land, and it will rise to the level of the sky.

We, the redshirts, want to say to the land and sky that we too have heart and soul. We, the redshirts, want to remind the land and sky that we too are the Thai people. We, the redshirts, want to ask the land and sky whether we have been condemned to seek, by ourselves, a rightful place to plant our feet here..

That's a great speech. I'm pretty sure Nattuwut and the other Red Shirt leaders have made many more inspiring speeches. You could make a 100 inspiring speeches but people are always going to remember the one where you incited your followers to burn the city to the ground. And that's just what they tried to do.