The First Red Shirt District Officially Opened And Recognized Today

[Buchholz]

When the negative aspects of an organisation includes burning down buildings, I really don't think it's biased to ignore their positive ones.

Forgive me my bad English, please, but i get the impression that you have performed an almost perfect oxymoron right now.

Nope.

It's not dissimilar to saying that while Charles Manson might have been kind to his grandmother, the negative aspects of his life clearing outshone that positive trait and those are what people will remember and focus on... except for those that wish to defend or are apologetic of his overall behavior.

[gl555]

And yet the certain leaders who incited the "small, even microscopic minority" to burn Bangkok are still around "leading". If the leadership is rotten and yet are still embraced by the followers then the whole organisation can't be any good can it?

well you've answered my point in your reply...

"certain leaders" of course you say this as you fully well know that not all red shirt leaders told their followers to burn any buildings, otherwise we'd have a lot more youtube clips than 'that famous one'.

my point is that you you shouldn't look at a whole (massive) group of people with an opinion based on the criminal actions of comparatively so few

If the Red Shirt movement wes so peaceful and only a few were criminal, why is it these 'certain' leaders who incited violence haven't been expelled yet? Why hasn't the movement distanced themselves from these people and their speeches? Yeah it's only the few who advocate violence, with a few carrying it out while the majority look on and silently approving. Such good people!

i'm not saying they're all "such good people"..... i'm saying they are not all bad people

and not to confuse the negative agenda's of some of the leadership with the mindset of 'all' of it's followers

The whole organisation will always be branded as 'bad' if they don't expel their more extreme members nor distance themselves from the violent speeches of their 'leaders'.

[nurofiend]

If the Red Shirt movement wes so peaceful and only a few were criminal, why is it these 'certain' leaders who incited violence haven't been expelled yet? Why hasn't the movement distanced themselves from these people and their speeches? Yeah it's only the few who advocate violence, with a few carrying it out while the majority look on and silently approving. Such good people!

i'm not saying they're all "such good people"..... i'm saying they are not all bad people

and not to confuse the negative agenda's of some of the leadership with the mindset of 'all' of it's followers

The whole organisation will always be branded as 'bad' if they don't expel their more extreme members nor distance themselves from the violent speeches of their 'leaders'.

well when i speak of the red shirts, i don't just mean the UDD 'organization' ... i mean it's millions of followers too, which technically is who the 'red shirts' are.

so i don't look at the red shirts as "a whole organization" like you seem to

[Buchholz]

well you've answered my point in your reply...

"certain leaders" of course you say this as you fully well know that not all red shirt leaders told their followers to burn any buildings, otherwise we'd have a lot more youtube clips than 'that famous one'.

my point is that you you shouldn't look at a whole (massive) group of people with an opinion based on the criminal actions of comparatively so few

If the Red Shirt movement wes so peaceful and only a few were criminal, why is it these 'certain' leaders who incited violence haven't been expelled yet? Why hasn't the movement distanced themselves from these people and their speeches? Yeah it's only the few who advocate violence, with a few carrying it out while the majority look on and silently approving. Such good people!

i'm not saying they're all "such good people"..... i'm saying they are not all bad people

and not to confuse the negative agenda's of some of the leadership with the mindset of 'all' of it's followers

The whole organisation will always be branded as 'bad' if they don't expel their more extreme members nor distance themselves from the violent speeches of their 'leaders'.

In the same manner, until they expunge their association with Thaksin, they remain his instrument of return and consequently they remain his lackeys.

,

Edited October 11, 2011 by Buchholz

[rubl]

It still doesn't change the fact that Red Shirts burn down buildings.

adjustment

it still doesn't change the fact that - an extremely small, even microscopic minority by comparison to it's total following of - red shirts burned down buildings

Although you're right in numbers, you have to keep in mind the expression of 'earning a reputation'. Those possibly only a few handful of miscreants have spoiled the name of the million of others. A positive reputation is easily lost, a negative one may take a decade to get rid off. Human nature, I'm afraid

well there you have it, and i fully agree

that's the point i'm trying to make to certain people who judge such a huge population of the country based on the actions of a few cronies and some street level thugs

One of the problems in my opinion is that none of the UDD leaders, or as you phrase it 'cronies ans thugs' has come out to condemn any action during March - May 2010. For lots of people that simply means those UDD leaders agree with all that was done in their name and therefore the 'reputation earned'. K. Natthawut shouting about taking responsability, but not doing so, k. Jatuporn with 'Gandhi T-shirt' proclaiming 'fight till the last drop of our blood' and simply surrendering to the police while 'peaceful protesters' die. The then government has admitted shooting with life ammunition, even declared life-fire-zones, what have a 'few cronies and thugs' admitted to?

As I said, a bad reputation is easily earned, but not easily forgotten

Edited October 11, 2011 by rubl

[nurofiend]

Although you're right in numbers, you have to keep in mind the expression of 'earning a reputation'. Those possibly only a few handful of miscreants have spoiled the name of the million of others. A positive reputation is easily lost, a negative one may take a decade to get rid off. Human nature, I'm afraid

well there you have it, and i fully agree

that's the point i'm trying to make to certain people who judge such a huge population of the country based on the actions of a few cronies and some street level thugs

One of the problems in my opinion is that none of the UDD leaders, or a you phrase 'cronies ans thugs' has come out to condemn any action during March - May 2010. For lots of people that simply means those UDD leaders agree with all that was done in their name and therefore the 'reputation earned'. K. Natthawut shouting about taking responsability, but not doing so, k. Jatuporn with 'Gandhi T-shirt' proclaiming 'fight till the last drop of our blood' and simply surrendering to the police while 'peaceful protesters' die. The then government has admitted shooting with life ammunition, even declared life-fire-zones, what have a 'few cronies and thugs' admitted to?

As I said, a bad reputation is easily earned, but not easily forgotten

well i meant "cronies" for some of the leaders and "street thugs" for the section of supporters who carried out some of the violence

"The then government has admitted shooting with life ammunition, even declared life-fire-zones" well a slow 80's clap for them then... even declaring live firing zones? jeez aren't they fantastic

admitted to shooting with live ammunition? a bit hard not to eh?!!

so the then government admitted to everything did they? they didn't try and shift any blame for certain incidents but accounted for any/every wrongdoing on their side?

what did the then government condemn?

they didn''t condemn the killing of the journalist fabio polenghi when all evidence points to the army being responsible

did they condemn the army for any killing? no

so based on your logic "For lots of people that simply means those" - Democrat - "leaders agree with all that was done in their name and therefore the 'reputation earned"

i don't agree with that last statement, but i'm just highlighting this twisted logic

[chooka]

It still doesn't change the fact that Red Shirts burn down buildings.

adjustment

it still doesn't change the fact that - an extremely small, even microscopic minority by comparison to it's total following of - red shirts burned down buildings

Although you're right in numbers, you have to keep in mind the expression of 'earning a reputation'. Those possibly only a few handful of miscreants have spoiled the name of the million of others. A positive reputation is easily lost, a negative one may take a decade to get rid off. Human nature, I'm afraid

yep the kaos and millions lost from the airport blockade is going to take decades to get rid of. Human nature I'm afraid.

[sbk]

last I looked, this thread was about Red Shirt Districts and Villages being formed. Lets keep it that way.

[bkkjames]

Will these newly self-proclaimed villages become part of TAT's next promotion? Will the BOI start offering extra incentives to set up businessed in the red zones?

[chooka]

It still doesn't change the fact that Red Shirts burn down buildings.

adjustment

it still doesn't change the fact that - an extremely small, even microscopic minority by comparison to it's total following of - red shirts burned down buildings

Although you're right in numbers, you have to keep in mind the expression of 'earning a reputation'. Those possibly only a few handful of miscreants have spoiled the name of the million of others. A positive reputation is easily lost, a negative one may take a decade to get rid off. Human nature, I'm afraid

well there you have it, and i fully agree

that's the point i'm trying to make to certain people who judge such a huge population of the country based on the actions of a few cronies and some street level thugs

I agree they are judging the vast majority of the Thai population. These people that they hate and despise so much are the ones toiling in the fields 15 hours a day breaking thier bodies for GDP the backbone of the country. These people who they hate so much are the ones collecting thier garbage and sweeping thier streets. These people are the ones supporting thier psuedo Hi So lifestyles. I can just see thier family sunday drives in the country side.

"Oh look Daddy an old lady in the fields."

Don't look at them darling they are redshirts and pultrid animals.

But daddy they look like me.

Darling they are not like you, you have breeding they do not. Daddy will buy you a nice yellow shirt thai to play with.

I guess for them the only 1/2 decent redshirts are the ones they can rent from a bar for a short time. I bet they are the ones who also complain that Thais do not like farangs and I wonder why when they totally dispise the average Thai.If these people live in a community together what have you to fear? They are not going rape your wives and murder your children. They have been living together for centuries and now thier communities have been pronounced a district and all those who look down upon them are up in arms.

Edited October 11, 2011 by chooka

[Buchholz]

I agree they are judging the vast majority of the Thai population. These people that they hate and despise so much are the ones toiling in the fields 15 hours a day breaking thier bodies for GDP the backbone of the country. These people who they hate so much are the ones collecting thier garbage and sweeping thier streets. These people are the ones supporting thier psuedo Hi So lifestyles. I can just see thier family sunday drives in the country side.

"Oh look Daddy an old lady in the fields."

Don't look at them darling they are redshirts and pultrid animals.

But daddy they look like me.

Darling they are not like you, you have breeding they do not. Daddy will buy you a nice yellow shirt thai to play with.

I guess for them the only 1/2 decent redshirts are the ones they can rent from a bar for a short time. I bet they are the ones who also complain that Thais do not like farangs and I wonder why when they totally dispise the average Thai.If these people live in a community together what have you to fear? They are not going rape your wives and murder your children. They have been living together for centuries and now thier communities have been pronounced a district and all those who look down upon them are up in arms.

Red Shirts are prostitutes?

[kimamey]

My gf tells me that she saw in the news Thaksin has tried to stop this but I can't find any thing about it so I'm not sure it's correct. It may be because he's worried about the implications. Opposition to the government over election promises or opposition from the military. Or maybe he sees this as divisive which may not be good for him but more importantly for the country.

If it is true then let's hope he's thinking about the country. It would be a positive move if that were the case.

[Insight]

I was written about the doctored tape in volume 2 of my book, and to where my own investigations into the origin led to - the barracks.

SC-Asset was not the origin of the tape, and the company has been cleared. The tape was distributed over several channels bypassing the Red Shirt leadership, and made its way to stages and radio stations before investigations over its authenticity could be performed. Quite ingenious.

I have written about all the subject matters you mentioned, i have photographed violence by the Red Shirts, and by all other sides. But replying to all of the subjects you mentioned here would be a bit too time consuming. Some of the subjects you mentioned i have not yet written about, but be assured, i will.

You should pass your findings on to Mr Amsterdam. He's clearly fond of such accusations, regardless of credibility.

[soundman]

I have removed some posts.

Please don't post unfounded insinuations, allegations against other board members.

[hammered]

Basically the red shirts are a large social movment that arent going away and are developing. They are going to be part of resolving where Thailand goes whether people like it or not. How happy the PTP hierarchy and Thaksin are with it is debatable but for now the PTP-red-feudal baron alliance continues against common enemy and mutually assured parliamentary majority

[TAWP]

Anyone that thinks declaring an *existing* village or district as a strict adherent to any political view is a good idea has a very loose grasp of democracy, freedom of speech and freedom from oppression.

[Mitker]

The term district is rather vague. Do they mean Tambon or Amphur or just a Mubaan?

Basically they mean a given territory where one's not welcome if not red.

[Mitker]

Will these newly self-proclaimed villages become part of TAT's next promotion? Will the BOI start offering extra incentives to set up businessed in the red zones?

Some adviser from Rwanda may be invited to propose successful items, popular when subgroups form within a society and promote visible, exacerbated antagonism...

[nicknostitz]

The term district is rather vague. Do they mean Tambon or Amphur or just a Mubaan?

Basically they mean a given territory where one's not welcome if not red.

Can you substantiate this accusation by presenting documented evidence of cases in these Red Shirt villages of wide spread persecution against non-Red Shirt sectors of population, or documented evidence of single cases, please?

[gl555]

Why don't you wear a yellow shirt and head for one of these villages? And if they don't beat fat ass up, we weren't bring it up anymore.

The term district is rather vague. Do they mean Tambon or Amphur or just a Mubaan?

Basically they mean a given territory where one's not welcome if not red.

Can you substantiate this accusation by presenting documented evidence of cases in these Red Shirt villages of wide spread persecution against non-Red Shirt sectors of population, or documented evidence of single cases, please?

[nicknostitz]

Why don't you wear a yellow shirt and head for one of these villages? And if they don't beat fat ass up, we weren't bring it up anymore.

The burden of proof lies with the accusers - ergo you.

Again - please show us evidence of our claims, please.

[gl555]

I already know how they are. You're the one who seems to be the mouthpiece and PR person for these people. You do it.

Why don't you wear a yellow shirt and head for one of these villages? And if they don't beat fat ass up, we weren't bring it up anymore.

The burden of proof lies with the accusers - ergo you.

Again - please show us evidence of our claims, please.

[TAWP]

The term district is rather vague. Do they mean Tambon or Amphur or just a Mubaan?

Basically they mean a given territory where one's not welcome if not red.

Can you substantiate this accusation by presenting documented evidence of cases in these Red Shirt villages of wide spread persecution against non-Red Shirt sectors of population, or documented evidence of single cases, please?

Nick, you are not credible.

If you want examples, check the article in the newspaper that shall not be mentioned; wife of foreigner went home to her [red shirt] village and voted for a non-PT party. Days after election she was called out with name with name (together with handful of others) as having voted for another party than PT - by the village head and officials - called a traitor dog and other nice names (animal comparisons are in general worse in Than than English, as you know) and clearly being informed she was not welcome there.

If you don't call that persecution, alright...

I at least call it 'not in line with a democratic agenda'.

And that is our fear.

[chooka]

Anyone that thinks declaring an *existing* village or district as a strict adherent to any political view is a good idea has a very loose grasp of democracy, freedom of speech and freedom from oppression.

Is this what they are demanding or is it just an asumption? Tawp I agree with you on things but this I can not do. Where is the evidence that these districts will be bound by a strict code of conduct and political view?

[timekeeper]

i have been looking on line for a map that shows the areas that voted red in the last election and a map of the current flooded areas

i was interested to see if there was any correlation between the two areas

i know Thais have a saying that loosely means''if you give bad you get bad''

its something akin to the'' what goes around comes around ''

i know in England, we say ''the sun only shines on the righteous''

i wondered if that applied here............

[nicknostitz]

The term district is rather vague. Do they mean Tambon or Amphur or just a Mubaan?

Basically they mean a given territory where one's not welcome if not red.

Can you substantiate this accusation by presenting documented evidence of cases in these Red Shirt villages of wide spread persecution against non-Red Shirt sectors of population, or documented evidence of single cases, please?

Nick, you are not credible.

If you want examples, check the article in the newspaper that shall not be mentioned; wife of foreigner went home to her [red shirt] village and voted for a non-PT party. Days after election she was called out with name with name (together with handful of others) as having voted for another party than PT - by the village head and officials - called a traitor dog and other nice names (animal comparisons are in general worse in Than than English, as you know) and clearly being informed she was not welcome there.

If you don't call that persecution, alright...

I at least call it 'not in line with a democratic agenda'.

And that is our fear.

If you, or anyone else, could PM me the link to the article, or the title, i will put it into my files and quote it. I tried to google it, but without any more information it is not easy to find it.

As to the incident you described - i have no doubt whatsoever that this is entirely possible, and has occurred in similar ways on numerous occasions. I am aware of cases in which individuals of either color coded group have serious problems in their home villages because the majority of their home villages are affiliated with the opposing color or political party. This is to be condemned, and an unfortunate effect of the social conflict, equally valid for either side, and not unique to Thailand. If you have ever lived in any village in any part of the world, including in western countries - you will know of such similar cases of village intolerance.

But jumping to the conclusion, as some here do, that this is the beginning of a Pol Pot or Nazi style system is pure hyperbole, and would need more evidence. Single cases are not wide spread and systematic abuses. To make such a case - there needs to be far more than one or the other case of typical village fascism. Given that there are now more than 2000 of such Red Shirt villages, i am astonished that there have been not more such cases published, given the vehemence of the rift in society.

On a personal note - it would be a bit more conductive to the tone of the conversation if you could be a bit more polite, and leave comments such as "... you are not credible" out of the discussion. Argue the point - not the person.I am getting a bit tired of constantly having to click the report button. Can't we just agree upon not to use such unfriendly terms while disagreeing?

Edited October 13, 2011 by nicknostitz

[softgeorge]

It still doesn't change the fact that Red Shirts burn down buildings.

adjustment

it still doesn't change the fact that - an extremely small, even microscopic minority by comparison to it's total following of - red shirts burned down buildings

Although you're right in numbers, you have to keep in mind the expression of 'earning a reputation'. Those possibly only a few handful of miscreants have spoiled the name of the million of others. A positive reputation is easily lost, a negative one may take a decade to get rid off. Human nature, I'm afraid

well there you have it, and i fully agree

that's the point i'm trying to make to certain people who judge such a huge population of the country based on the actions of a few cronies and some street level thugs

agree. There was a little incident in england a couple of months ago that made the red shirt protests look like a 2 yr old girls tea party. Are we branding all these fine upstanding british gentlemen in the same mould? No we are not but their actions were far worse than anything Thailand has thrown up.

[EnSvenskTiger]

i have been looking on line for a map that shows the areas that voted red in the last election and a map of the current flooded areas

i was interested to see if there was any correlation between the two areas

i know Thais have a saying that loosely means''if you give bad you get bad''

its something akin to the'' what goes around comes around ''

i know in England, we say ''the sun only shines on the righteous''

i wondered if that applied here............

And just how will Bangkok fit in your ideas? Not exactly a Red Village is it?

[serenitynow]

agree. There was a little incident in england a couple of months ago that made the red shirt protests look like a 2 yr old girls tea party. Are we branding all these fine upstanding british gentlemen in the same mould? No we are not but thier actions were far worse than anything Thailand has thrown up.

How many law enforcement officers did the British guys kill? Did they assasinate their own group members in order to escalate violence and tensions? Bombs? Grenade launchers? Explosive barricades? I read they stole tennis shoes and TV sets. I guess one of us has it wrong.

[softgeorge]

agree. There was a little incident in england a couple of months ago that made the red shirt protests look like a 2 yr old girls tea party. Are we branding all these fine upstanding british gentlemen in the same mould? No we are not but thier actions were far worse than anything Thailand has thrown up.

How many law enforcement officers did the British guys kill? Did they assasinate their own group members in order to escalate violence and tensions? Bombs? Grenade launchers? Explosive barricades? I read they stole tennis shoes and TV sets. I guess one of us has it wrong.

proably about the same...probably equal on all terms who knows. Before you respond, come with 100% fact and not assumptions or theories. I do not want to hear that your wife had a friend who had a dog who took a leak on a guys tree who had a friend who had a cousin who had a nieghbour who had a dog pee on her tree also and her friend went to Bangkok and ate food and next to a redshirt who who paid his bill then went to the toilet and met another guy who actually bred the dog who took a piss on the 1st tree.