Corolla Ke70 Troubles

[ClareQuilty]

Perhaps some of you have seen my KE70 threads before - I own a very ancient but well preserved Toyota Corolla, about 28 years old at least, which has hardly ever broken down or needed any repairs in the three years I've owned it.

Well, it now has finally broken - it didn't actually strand me, but it keeps stalling out on the road. It will start, though a bit reluctantly, but then stalls out after a half a kilometer to a kilometer, and I have to let it glide to the side of the road, wait a minute, restart it, and go again. It also usually gives off quite a stink during these stall-outs, but no visible smoke.

I had it in at the repair shop the last couple of days, and they put on a new condenser (630 baht all in). When I picked it up it seemed better for about half an hour, then the same exact problem occurred, and I barely limped back to the shop. My original theory was the fuel filter or fuel pump, because it seemed like it wasn't getting fuel, but another friend said it could be the distributor. Do any of you armchair mechanics have any opinions?

It was interesting that the condenser seemed to make the car run right for about 30 minutes before the problem came back.. also the problem seemed to get worse and worse as I limped the 6-7 kilometers back to the repair shop.

[mdechgan]

Condenser? I am not sure what part you are talking about.

But if you have a smell or stink when it stalls it pretty much means a rich fuel mixture.

Either an ignition problem (coil, plugs, wires, distributor) or you have to rebuild your carburetor. It could also be something simple like a vacuum hose.

Did you convert it to LPG? If it is a LPG conversion then the mixture is wrong.

Edited October 14, 2011 by mdechgan

[handydog]

Check the fuel first... I assume it has a Nikki carberator. remove the air cleaner and check to see if the carb has a glass window in the side of the float bowl that will show the level of fuel. Run the engine for a few minutes at 2500 rpm and check to see if the fuel level drops in the window. If it does this would indicate a problem in the fuel departmentt. maybe a sticky float valve, tired fuel pump, or partially blocked fuel line.

If the fuel levels are ok then it is time to look at the electrical system... check the coil (borrow one the same you know works and try) If it has a ballast coil; see if it is possible to by-pass the ballast. check the distributor cap for hairline cracks or carbon tracking. Replace the HT lead from the coil to the distributor. check spark plugs for colour. (do they need replacing?) Replace the plug leads.

Hope this gives you idea of a direction to head in.

:jap:

[MisterBeetle]

Check the fuel first... I assume it has a Nikki carberator. remove the air cleaner and check to see if the carb has a glass window in the side of the float bowl that will show the level of fuel. Run the engine for a few minutes at 2500 rpm and check to see if the fuel level drops in the window. If it does this would indicate a problem in the fuel departmentt. maybe a sticky float valve, tired fuel pump, or partially blocked fuel line.

If the fuel levels are ok then it is time to look at the electrical system... check the coil (borrow one the same you know works and try) If it has a ballast coil; see if it is possible to by-pass the ballast. check the distributor cap for hairline cracks or carbon tracking. Replace the HT lead from the coil to the distributor. check spark plugs for colour. (do they need replacing?) Replace the plug leads.

Hope this gives you idea of a direction to head in.

:jap:

All good info here, I would have said the same thing.

It definitely sounds fuel related.

If the car has been running smoothly up till now, I think you have picked up some crud in the fuel line somewhere.

I would check the needle valves in the carburetor, or possible the fuel pump has died.

Unless your handy with a spanner, you need to find a good mechanic that knows a thing about older Jap cars.

Good luck with it! I am sure you will narrow it down.

I had a similar problem on my old VW beetle, it ended up being a blocked fuel line.

This can happen on old cars!!

[Lickey]

Replacing the condenser, the fella is on the right track, now ask him to check the small earth lead between the stator plate and the distibutor body,

The stator plate is the part in the distributor where the points and condenser are mounted on, and because it "floats" it needs an earth lead, the condenser will act on its behalf till it it gets hot and breaks down, if you want to try this, when it starts to play-up, pull over, have a sleep or something for 15 mins, then try again, should be ok till it gets hot again,

The smell is probaly un-burnt fuel because of mis-firing ect, also if the contact breaker points have a blue colour at the contact, this also points to a faulty condenser or poor earth lead in the distibutor,

ClaireQ, you op clearly states that after a new condenser was fitted, it went a lot further trouble free than before, so perhaps the posters who said it is a fuel problem would like to explain how they came to this conclusion, intriguing stuff indeed!

[transam]

On an old ride loads of stuff does not work 100%. Change points, condenser it improves stuff a bit but no cure. Sounds like fuel starvation.

As stated, look at the glass fuel level, start it and let it idle until it stops, or see if the level drops and refills. Check the fuel level. again. If it's the original fuel pump then it has done well.

Should add, a piece of crap in the carb can cause your prob.When did you last change the inline fuel filter ?.

Edited October 15, 2011 by transam

[Tattoo180sx]

Seems like the idle is having dramas returning to normal after a cold start. That could explain the reason why it does it shortly after half a km or so. Sounds like electrics like the others replies say.

[Farma]

I’m not too familiar with Corollas but experienced something similar with a Holden Gemini fitted with an electric fuel pump.

I’d start, drive out of the car park only to have the car stall 500 yards down the road. I’d open the fuel cap to release the tank vacuum and the car would go another km then stall again. There was a sucking noise on opening the fuel cap.

It was a combination of 2 faults.

The inward relief valve in the fuel cap was clogged.

A relay in the ignition system was designed to provide extra boost to the fuel pump for x number of seconds after start, it would then drop back to normal. The relay was faulty and wasn’t giving the extra boost on start up. The relay fault was known to car dealers and changed when cars were serviced.Obviously the car I had missed out on the dealers relay replacement.

Changing the relay and fuel cap fixed that problem.

Something else to look at would be the fuel lines. I've known cars stop from fuel boiling in fuel lines that have sagged or been inadvertently knocked too close to a heat source. It gives similar symptoms to what the OP is experiencing.

[transam]

I'm not too familiar with Corollas but experienced something similar with a Holden Gemini fitted with an electric fuel pump.

I'd start, drive out of the car park only to have the car stall 500 yards down the road. I'd open the fuel cap to release the tank vacuum and the car would go another km then stall again. There was a sucking noise on opening the fuel cap.

It was a combination of 2 faults.

The inward relief valve in the fuel cap was clogged.

A relay in the ignition system was designed to provide extra boost to the fuel pump for x number of seconds after start, it would then drop back to normal. The relay was faulty and wasn't giving the extra boost on start up. The relay fault was known to car dealers and changed when cars were serviced.Obviously the car I had missed out on the dealers relay replacement.

Changing the relay and fuel cap fixed that problem.

Something else to look at would be the fuel lines. I've known cars stop from fuel boiling in fuel lines that have sagged or been inadvertently knocked too close to a heat source. It gives similar symptoms to what the OP is experiencing.

Yep, and very difficult to pin point the prob unless l/we are looking at it. If your near me, call.

[Lickey]

Why dont you armchair golfers read OPs post again and then explain why a new condenser got a lot futher down the road !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[transam]

Why dont you armchair golfers read OPs post again and then explain why a new condenser got a lot futher down the road !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Got a lot further but NOT to Pattaya.

[WarpSpeed]

Why dont you armchair golfers read OPs post again and then explain why a new condenser got a lot futher down the road !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep sounds like his coil may be overheating or has a crack that opens up more when it gets hot as all heated objects do and when it does heat up the spark is then jumping across to a ground somewhere.. Once cooled down the cycle repeats itself, having a new condenser installed has taken off some of the load working more efficiently so it runs longer before the trouble crops up again.. Could also be the ballast resistor too..

[ClareQuilty]

Thanks everyone for your interesting comments!

Well, the latest news is the car has broken down yet again with exactly the same problem, this time after a new fuel pump (1000 baht). First, the condenser (600 baht), a few kilometers appeared to be working better, then broke down again, then back to the same idiot shop, where they put a new fuel pump, it drove pretty well for a couple of days, then the exact same problem, only this time on a dark highway in the middle of nowhere.

So.. the thing is, I know very little about cars, but I also have no money, so its either this car or no car. I'm thinking its going to be pure luck to find a good mechanic - I think most of you would agree a good mechanic could keep a KE70 Corolla running more or less forever (certainly I still see quite a few of them on the road, and looking pretty rough while going pretty strong), while a useless mechanic will just keep changing parts and wasting my meager funds.

I'll let you all know what happens - when I get it towed to a new shop in the next few days (could be up to 800 baht or more!), I'll suggest 1) the fuel filter, 2) clogged fuel lines, 3) coil, 4) the 'float' in the carburetor... was there anything else? This is going to be hard to do, as my Thai consists of things that one would normally use Thai for, like ordering food, not complex conversations. I have heard of an English speaking mechanic in my town.. will try to find him over the next day or two.

[Litlos]

Can you give a bit more detail on what happens when it fails. Is the fault like it is gradually running out of power until it stops or does it suddenly just shut down? if it it gradually running out of power then is probably fuel related, electrics tend give a sharper shutdown. This is a generalisation only and there can be some electrical faults that result in a loss of power. You mention earlier that it stinks after the problem. Is this an unburnt fuel smell like petrol, or something different?

My daughter had one of these and the problem was running out of power. The mechanics cleaned the carby, replaced the fuel pump and a few other things while I was away at work. When it failed when I was at home I replaced the fuel filter which was blocked, and it ran fine for a week until it did the same again. Checked the fuel filter and it was blocked again with what looked like black crumbly material. I decided that somehow some contamination had got into the fuel tank and pulled it out to clean it, and got rid of a lot of the black crumbly material. As I was getting ready to reinstall the tank I looked up the filler line and could see more of the black material. It turned out to be corrosion that was occurring on the filler pipe and dropping into the tank, then blocking the filter. Replaced the filler line and problem solved. The black crumbly material was attracted to a magnet so that was a hint it was iron based in origin.

Cheers

[ClareQuilty]

Can you give a bit more detail on what happens when it fails. Is the fault like it is gradually running out of power until it stops or does it suddenly just shut down? if it it gradually running out of power then is probably fuel related, electrics tend give a sharper shutdown. This is a generalisation only and there can be some electrical faults that result in a loss of power. You mention earlier that it stinks after the problem. Is this an unburnt fuel smell like petrol, or something different?

Well, its hard to say about that - it is only when it is running along at a fairly high rate of speed that it looses power - say around 40-60 kilometers per hour. By 'lose power' I mean it dies right away and won't continue to run.. It has yet to lose power when idling or at low speed. When it goes out it is fairly quickly, but kind of like a half a second or a second, not instantly. And the smell you can notice afterward is kind of a very bad burnt smell - not the smell of fresh gas, but like a smell of something burning.

So the next event today was that a new mechanic came and towed it back to his shop - now I have a man about 60 or older, who can speak English basically. I gave up on the previous shop. I generally think older mechanics are more likely to be good, particularly with older cars. As soon as he got it back to the shop he decided that it was the fuel pump - that the previous replacement of a few days ago was a Chinese made product, and therefore useless and prone to immediate failure. Anyway the car did run fine idling in the shop once he had jump-started it.

To be honest I think this guy is barking up the wrong tree as well, but what can I do?

Edited October 24, 2011 by ClareQuilty

[WarpSpeed]

Is this an electric fuel pump then? I think a car that old was originally a mechanical fuel pump wasn't it? This is important because if they did one of their Thai conversions there maybe some sort of electrical fault cropping up in that now and it could be anything from a relay if they installed one to any number of other electrical issues especially if they didn't install a separate fusing harness..

The burning smell your'e talking about sounds like it might be something electrically heating up and burning, could be veeeeery dangerous especially if it's fuel pump related.

[Litlos]

Off on a bit of a tangent, what is the temperature gauge showing when the engine shuts down and during normal operation? It should be sitting roughly in the middle during normal driving once warmed up.

Also you mention he had to jump start it, was the battery flat? Are these problems mostly occuring at night time with the lights on?

Cheers

[ClareQuilty]

Yes, Warpspeed, that's precisely right -it is an electric fuel pump installed to replace the mechanical one. I think it has been in the car for many, many years..

The new mechanic says that the Chinese replacement is worse than nothing, as are all Chinese parts and products, according to him (as he put it in his curious English 'part just for sell, not for use'. So, he has hunted down the now-rare second-hand-from-japan electrical fuel pump for about 800 baht. Brand new from japan would be about 2,000 he said. He said used ones used to be 600 baht have become so rare the price has gone up - he had to search all over Isaan and had one sent from about 4 hours away.

I'll probably pick the car up later today, will let you all know how it works out.

Oh, and Litlos, the temperature gauge does't work very well on this car - it usually shows dead cold under normal operating range, and just moves very slightly to the right when the car is super-hot, near overheating. Anyway during these episodes the engine temp was just fine, no overheating at all (it was at night, I mostly drive at night, but I do believe I killed the battery from trying to start it many times).

Edited October 26, 2011 by ClareQuilty

[elistu]

I had a very similar problem on an old MK1 VW Golf I used to own back in the UK, it would start fine and drive perfectly with a full tank of petrol, but once the level dropped to about half the car would do the same thing you have described. Turns out there was a piece of rust in the tank that would float up when the car was not running and get sucked down over the fuel tap when it was, blocking the fuel from getting to the carb.

Might be worth looking at the tank before you go buying loads of new parts for it. Hope you get it sorted.

[ClareQuilty]

Well today I got a call from my mechanic, said the car broke down while he was test driving it post-repair, in a new, unrelated and worse way. His English is poor, and it is always even more problematic discussing things on the phone, but he said it was 'broken because you drove it without oil'. No idea what that means, but he seemed to imply that the engine was completely defunct. Of course I've never driven it without oil, and always change the oil frequently, check it frequently, and keep it topped up. I find it a bit unlikely that it would break down suddenly in this way while he had it (makes me suspicious of him), but I have to admit that it has had for years terrible valve-clatter at start-up, which is normal for these old Toyota motors due to poor oiling. Perhaps the valves and whatnot finally wore out.

Kind of sad because the car had been a paragon of reliability - a 50,000 baht car giving 3 years of service without any repair costs. But now alas it sounds that it is ruined, and there'll be no affording a replacement on a teacher's salary.

[ClareQuilty]

OOPs, I misunderstood the man's bad English on the phone - it was the rear-end or 'differential', not the engine, which had been ruined by 'running without oil'. Still 3,500-4,000 baht, but probably worth it.

[transam]

OOPs, I misunderstood the man's bad English on the phone - it was the rear-end or 'differential', not the engine, which had been ruined by 'running without oil'. Still 3,500-4,000 baht, but probably worth it.

Hmmmmm, if the axle had no oil it would have been making an horrendous racket for ages, was it ?

Even if one of the three oil seals failed the lower crown wheel is usually sitting in a ''bath'' of oil below seal level and so picks up oil. Even no oil it would be hard to lock it up on a test run but for sure a few yards would tell any mechanic, from the noise, to put some oil in. To lose all the oil you would have seen oil on your drive and hypoid diff oil smells 'orrible and you would smell it in the car (l think).

[kartman]

OOPs, I misunderstood the man's bad English on the phone - it was the rear-end or 'differential', not the engine, which had been ruined by 'running without oil'. Still 3,500-4,000 baht, but probably worth it.

Hmmmmm, if the axle had no oil it would have been making an horrendous racket for ages, was it ?

Even if one of the three oil seals failed the lower crown wheel is usually sitting in a ''bath'' of oil below seal level and so picks up oil. Even no oil it would be hard to lock it up on a test run but for sure a few yards would tell any mechanic, from the noise, to put some oil in. To lose all the oil you would have seen oil on your drive and hypoid diff oil smells 'orrible and you would smell it in the car (l think).

Often follow old Hiace's smelling of diff oil perhaps it's a Toyota 'thing'

[ClareQuilty]

Even if one of the three oil seals failed the lower crown wheel is usually sitting in a ''bath'' of oil below seal level and so picks up oil. Even no oil it would be hard to lock it up on a test run but for sure a few yards would tell any mechanic, from the noise, to put some oil in. To lose all the oil you would have seen oil on your drive and hypoid diff oil smells 'orrible and you would smell it in the car (l think).

Actually I don't think the mechanic was accurate about why the differential was so worn - though we had never checked the oil, I doubt it was all gone. I have another theory about why it was worn.

First I should report that I have gotten the car back and it is usable - for 9,300 baht!!. The real Japanese second-hand electric fuel pump is working and seems to have done the trick on the dying problem (though it is very loud!). However, the new differential has not done anything to quell the awful shudder-on-takeoff (but at no other time) problem - if anything it is worse!

So here is my theory - the differential may have worn out because it and the drive-shaft and the engine may have been somewhat misaligned. I don't know exactly how those things fit together, but I know that the engine in the car is not the original (though it is the correct engine for this model) and it is quite possible they put it in slightly 'off', and this would also explain why a new diff. with all its gears in unworn condition would make the shudder greater.

Am I correct that this could lead to things not linking up or lining up correctly? Its just a guess.

Can anyone advise me if this could be the cause of the shudder? I'm sure the new-used differential itself is quite good condition. If something like this is the problem, would it be possible to adjust things? I've heard of the engine being put in 'too low' or 'too high' in engine swaps.. maybe it wouldn't cost too much to adjust with different mounts or some kind of shims or something like that. As it is, the shudder is extremely annoying at take off, and I would hate to see the new 4,300 baht differential wrecked after just another year or so.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ClareQuilty

[kartman]

Sounds like you need a new clutch unit or centre propshaft bearing if Ke 70's have them or both.

[PattayaParent]

Seems like the idle is having dramas returning to normal after a cold start. That could explain the reason why it does it shortly after half a km or so. Sounds like electrics like the others replies say.

Happened on my 11 year old Corolla and I reckon it was the automatic choke jamming open and flooding the engine causing it to cut out.

Does it over-rev in neutral when stopped at lights?

[transam]

Sounds like you need a new clutch unit or centre propshaft bearing if Ke 70's have them or both.

And check the gearbox rubber mount, back of the box, if thats shot it will bounce around on launch.

[ClareQuilty]

Sounds like you need a new clutch unit or centre propshaft bearing if Ke 70's have them or both.

And check the gearbox rubber mount, back of the box, if thats shot it will bounce around on launch.

These are great ideas, karman, transam. The clutch doesn't seem to slip at all, or have any other problems once the car is in even the slightest degree of motion. Also I should note that in the last couple days I was reminded of this factor - the problem manifests to varying degrees depending on the weather - temperature and moisture level - and sometimes it seems also the length of time I've been driving (the longer the usage period, the worse the problem gets).

[kartman]

Sounds like you need a new clutch unit or centre propshaft bearing if Ke 70's have them or both.

And check the gearbox rubber mount, back of the box, if thats shot it will bounce around on launch.

These are great ideas, karman, transam. The clutch doesn't seem to slip at all, or have any other problems once the car is in even the slightest degree of motion. Also I should note that in the last couple days I was reminded of this factor - the problem manifests to varying degrees depending on the weather - temperature and moisture level - and sometimes it seems also the length of time I've been driving (the longer the usage period, the worse the problem gets).

That's because a part of the clutch unit is slightly warped (as in bent nothing else ) so the hotter it gets the more warped it becomes.

[ClareQuilty]

That's because a part of the clutch unit is slightly warped (as in bent nothing else ) so the hotter it gets the more warped it becomes.

I see Kartman. When you say 'clutch unit', do you mean the clutch plate? Or the sort of housing of the apparatus? I'm just curious as I think while replacing the clutch plate would be very cheap (maybe just 1,000-1,200 baht), replacing the whole clutch mechanism could be very expensive.