Thai Language Schools

[khaan]

I am currently considering undertaking a Thai language course. But recently my neighbour gave me his course material ( from one of your leading competitors ) because he was returning to live in USA.

I must say if I had paid 27,000 baht to attend that course, I would be very disappointed by the number of what I consider to be inaccuracies in the pronunciation of the Thai words and expressions. I am sure you will agree the Thai language is difficult enough to learn as it is with the necessity to understand the tone system. But what makes it even more frustrating is when an establishment that is meant to be a professional language school appears to have been careless regarding the use of the corresponding words shown in Romanised lettering thereby encouraging the student to give a completely wrong sound in the pronunciation of a Thai word. For example for the word " doen " ( i.e. to walk ) they use " deen "?

Another example is they use " kii " ( i.e. how many ) when clearly the sound is far more similar to " gii " ? Apart from that I was warned that to say this word emphasising the " K " in this instance, as one would assume from reading the text would result in what Thai people would consider to be a rude and impolite expression .

These are just two examples out of VERY many.

The other imperfection in the coursework includes such things as failure to complete the words in examples of dialogues, failure to provide adequate reference material such as a comprehensive wordlist when reading examples of Thai dialogue and expressions.

What I would like to ask from you is if you are able to provide an assurance that your course material is more accurate in this regard?

Edited October 16, 2011 by khaan

[Parvis]

In my opinion it is indeed better to learn Thai script - BEFORE - attempting to study the Thai language. Even then you need to be very careful which School you choose. A comment such as "visit our School for a trial lesson" is NOT sufficient to judge course material.

For example - one School PRIDES itself to not use transliteration from the beginning on - but yet - EVERY SINGLE STUDENT in this "School" scribbles their own transliteration underneath the Thai script.

In the beginning their teachers actually recommended this procedure. Attend a trail lesson and check for yourself. This particular School has such "useful" subjects as - Kennedy's assassination - Michelangelo - Hitler etc etc etc - in their course material. YET at the end of the first book you would be hardpressed to ask "Where is the bathroom" in Thai.

If your interest is to learn the Thai language - it may be best to AVOID Schools whose primary business appears to be to qualify you for an Ed Visa.

If your interest is primarily an Ed visa - well - that is what you are paying for.

Edited October 16, 2011 by Parvis

[khaan]

In my opinion it is indeed better to learn Thai script - BEFORE - attempting to study the Thai language. Even then you need to be very careful which School you choose. A comment such as "visit our School for a trial lesson" is NOT sufficient to judge course material.

For example - one School PRIDES itself to not use transliteration from the beginning on - but yet - EVERY SINGLE STUDENT in this "School" scribbles their own transliteration underneath the Thai script.

In the beginning their teachers actually recommended this procedure. Attend a trail lesson and check for yourself. This particular School has such "useful" subjects as - Kennedy's assassination - Michelangelo - Hitler etc etc etc - in their course material. YET at the end of the first book you would be hardpressed to ask "Where is the bathroom" in Thai.

If your interest is to learn the Thai language - it may be best to AVOID Schools whose primary business appears to be to qualify you for an Ed Visa.

If your interest is primarily an Ed visa - well - that is what you are paying for.

Thank you very much for your valuable advice.

Yes I have already learnt about 75% of the consonants and by the time I am ready to start a course I will know them 100%. But I have to say what an extraordinary task it has been

and I wonder how many other people have had as much difficulty as I had remembering whether the little circles are above or below the lines or whether they are inside or outside the character

Actually I would like to qualify for an Ed Visa AND take the whole business of learning Thai seriously as well.

Why should it be difficult to find somewhere where I can accomplish both? my understanding is that any establishment that has been approved by the Thai Ministry of education is also able to complete the necessary paperwork for the student to be able to successfully obtain an Ed Visa

and that you are not necessarily confined to the production line environment.

In fact they should go hand in hand and I have heard stories that immigration officers will sometimes quiz the student in Thai and there have been instances where an extension has been rejected if they are unable to demonstrate at least an understanding of a basic conversation?

Can you possibly elaborate about your advice as to avoiding schools that are primarily interested in issuing visas?i.e. do you have any specific recommendations?

Edited October 16, 2011 by khaan

[colinm]

Make sure you've read the pronouncation notes for the book!

The transliteration aren't in English, but phonetically represent the same Thai sounds as the Thai language.

Thus the 'ee' in deen, isn't an English 'ee' but represent the vowel in เดิน.

Same thing for 'k' representing 'ก'

As long as the transliteration is consistent, it can be capable of accurately representing the Thai sounds. (Just that it is useless outside the classroom!)

[khaan]

Make sure you've read the pronouncation notes for the book!

The transliteration aren't in English, but phonetically represent the same Thai sounds as the Thai language.

Thus the 'ee' in deen, isn't an English 'ee' but represent the vowel in เดิน.

Same thing for 'k' representing 'ก'

As long as the transliteration is consistent, it can be capable of accurately representing the Thai sounds. (Just that it is useless outside the classroom!)

well I don't see the point of them doing that

surely wouldn't it be best if they are teaching at a basic level to teach the students the correct sound of the basic vocabulary ?

and apart from that the coursework that I have doesn't mention anything about what you have kindly clarified.

[cdnvic]

Three posts were removed (personal spat). Back on topic please.

[MacWalen]

Walen teaches without any transliteration.

Walen school - try for free.

[edwardandtubs]

Walen teaches without any transliteration.

Walen school - try for free.

I notice you didn't comment on the post that very clearly referred to your school:

For example - one School PRIDES itself to not use transliteration from the beginning on - but yet - EVERY SINGLE STUDENT in this "School" scribbles their own transliteration underneath the Thai script.

In the beginning their teachers actually recommended this procedure. Attend a trail lesson and check for yourself. This particular School has such "useful" subjects as - Kennedy's assassination - Michelangelo - Hitler etc etc etc - in their course material. YET at the end of the first book you would be hardpressed to ask "Where is the bathroom" in Thai.

[theseahorse]

I'm a liitle confused at what the OP is getting at here.

To me, the verb to walk isn't doen, it's much closer to deen. In all the courses I've done and both the Thai dictionaries I own it's deen (but with upside down e's, so like "er" but without the r) saying do-en is just wrong and would confuse me. Also, with 'kii', it's somewhere inbetween g and k and if you look in any dictionary it is spelt - kii.

The biggest thing that helped me (although I'm still a struggling amatuer) was to learn the standardized phonetics used in Thai dictionaries and my lessons. Where ever we're from back west makes a big difference on how we read a romanised version of Thai. To me (being British), 'deen' would be pronounced 'dern' whereas I'm presumng the OP is American and reads it closer to 'dean' as American's stress the vowel, especially with the 'e' sound.

If you have the time to be able to learn the script then go for it, but sadly due to work I struggle to find the time to study my spoken Thai, and it's the spoken Thai that makes the biggest difference to me here in Thailand. Learning the standardised phonetics and then using a school that sticks to the standardised phonetics rather than making their own up has helped me hugely.

[Maestro]

From the original post by khaan in this topic:

...What I would like to ask from you is if you are able to provide an assurance that your course material is more accurate in this regard?

Whom exactly are you asking this question? As you mention no school, readers must assume that you are asking the membership at large, which obviously can't have been your intention.

[MacWalen]

Walen teaches without any transliteration.

Walen school - try for free.

I notice you didn't comment on the post that very clearly referred to your school:

For example - one School PRIDES itself to not use transliteration from the beginning on - but yet - EVERY SINGLE STUDENT in this "School" scribbles their own transliteration underneath the Thai script.

In the beginning their teachers actually recommended this procedure. Attend a trail lesson and check for yourself. This particular School has such "useful" subjects as - Kennedy's assassination - Michelangelo - Hitler etc etc etc - in their course material. YET at the end of the first book you would be hardpressed to ask "Where is the bathroom" in Thai.

I did comment edward but I was attacked by one poster and moderators deleted my posts and of the other guy's also. Parvis is a guy who will always write negative things about Walen, get used to it guys.

We know how to teach Thai, all the people who want to try please visit us or try online.

Walen School - we know how to teach Thai

Edited October 16, 2011 by MacWalen

[Puccini]

...

The biggest thing that helped me (although I'm still a struggling amatuer) was to learn the standardized phonetics used in Thai dictionaries and my lessons. Where ever we're from back west makes a big difference on how we read a romanised version of Thai. To me (being British), 'deen' would be pronounced 'dern' whereas I'm presumng the OP is American and reads it closer to 'dean' as American's stress the vowel, especially with the 'e' sound...

You hit the nail on the head. "doen" probably makes most sense to a person of German mother tongue but is meaningless for an Italian, Frenchman, Japanese, etc. It does happen to be part of the Royal Institute of Thai Language Romanisation, but the multitude of Thai language schools use a few dozen different systems.

[Puccini]

Some schools apparently use no phonetic system at all -- I've seen Walen mentioned as an example. The longer I think about it the more this makes sense to me. Why have a student learn a few dozen weird hieroglyphs that are useless to him outside the classroom of that particular school when with a little more effort he can learn the Thai alphabet, a somewhat larger set of "hieroglyphs", useful to him in discussions with students of other schools and with Thais and, of course, useful for reading and writing Thai?

[Puccini]

...For example - one School PRIDES itself to not use transliteration from the beginning on - but yet - EVERY SINGLE STUDENT in this "School" scribbles their own transliteration underneath the Thai script...

I have some difficulty trying to figure out what you might possibly see wrong with this. Personally, I would prefer to use my own phonetic annotations rather than have a phonetic transliteration system based on a language other than my mother tongue forced on me. See "doen" and "dern" discussed earlier in this topic for an example. In my case I might resort to the phonetic system of the Concise Oxford Dictonary, with which I have become familiar through that dictionary's use for the study of English in past years. Somebody else would perhaps use the different system employed by the Merriam-Webster dictionary, a Korean would scribble in Korean, etc. What's wrong with that? If a uniform transliteration/romanisation system were used throughout Thailand it would make sense to use that, if one wanted to use a system, but there is no such uniform use of any system.

[poanoi]

I hate every last thai consonant with a burning passion, but unfortunately the majority of schools uses a messed up karaoke thai, so that's not perfect either.

I like the phonetics used by Mike Simpson in The English Thai Dictionary

a whole lot, in which case walk = deuh:n

It could be even better if using german letters: dö:n

Best would be a major overhaul of the written thai language tho, make a space between words for starters

sendthemaids, go figure where to make a space

Edited October 17, 2011 by poanoi

[MacWalen]

Some schools apparently use no phonetic system at all -- I've seen Walen mentioned as an example. The longer I think about it the more this makes sense to me. Why have a student learn a few dozen weird hieroglyphs that are useless to him outside the classroom of that particular school when with a little more effort he can learn the Thai alphabet, a somewhat larger set of "hieroglyphs", useful to him in discussions with students of other schools and with Thais and, of course, useful for reading and writing Thai?

That is exactly the point.

[theseahorse]

For me, using my own transliteration was a problem as I'd often hear the same word but pronounced in a slightly different way, so could end up writing it down differently each time. Whereas when it is written in standardized way, I always know how to pronounce it properly each time. The schools I've used here have always used the same phonetic system as the dictonaries I own, so it's extremely easy to look things up. If using your own transliteration, you're not going to be able to understand a dictionary properly.

If you're here studying Thai full time then I'd agree, learn the script. But it takes less than an hour to learn the standardized phonetics, whereas to learn the Thai alphabet to the extent where it would help takes forever unless you can commit the time to it.

[kriswillems]

I think it's a misunderstanding that learning the Thai alphabet and writing system takes a long time. It's really not that hard.

In the traject to from a complete beginner to having a "workable" knowledge of Thai, learning the writing system (until a level that allows you to read Thai) probably takes less than 1% of your time.

When choosing a course you'll have to decide if you want to learn the writing system yourself, or with help from the school. If you expect help from the school, the school should dedicate at least a few lessons to it before actually using Thai script only (else you're just wasting your time there).

Using phonetic script, either made by yourself or out of some book works counterproductive, because unlearning/forgetting things takes much more time than learning. And to be able to quickly read/write Thai you'll have to unlearn the phonetic script.

Edited October 17, 2011 by kriswillems

[MacWalen]

I think it's a misunderstanding that learning the Thai alphabet and writing system takes a long time. It's really not that hard.

In the traject to from a complete beginner to having a "workable" knowledge of Thai, learning the writing system (until a level that allows you to read Thai) probably takes less than 1% of your time.

When choosing a course you'll have to decide if you want to learn the writing system yourself, or with help from the school. If you expect help from the school, the school should dedicate at least a few lessons to it before actually using Thai script only (else you're just wasting your time there).

Using phonetic script, either made by yourself or out of some book works counterproductive, because unlearning/forgetting things takes much more time than learning. And to be able to quickly read/write Thai you'll have to unlearn the phonetic script.

Totally agree Kris, that is why Walen has never used any transliteration.

[DavidHouston]

I think it's a misunderstanding that learning the Thai alphabet and writing system takes a long time. It's really not that hard.

In the traject to from a complete beginner to having a "workable" knowledge of Thai, learning the writing system (until a level that allows you to read Thai) probably takes less than 1% of your time.

When choosing a course you'll have to decide if you want to learn the writing system yourself, or with help from the school. If you expect help from the school, the school should dedicate at least a few lessons to it before actually using Thai script only (else you're just wasting your time there).

Using phonetic script, either made by yourself or out of some book works counterproductive, because unlearning/forgetting things takes much more time than learning. And to be able to quickly read/write Thai you'll have to unlearn the phonetic script.

I agree with Kris and ant to add that there is a middle ground. The Royal Institute Dictionary uses a "phonemic" approach to pronunciation. In addition to the correct Thai spelling of a particular word or phrase, the dictionary also shows how the word is to be pronounced using Thai orthography. Using Thai orthography (consonants, vowels, and tone marks) to indicate Thai sounds, a student can write down the sounds of the words he or she is learning with an almost unambiguous correctness. And, this phonemic approach requires the student to learn many fewer Thai consonants.

For example, the word for "standards" is "มาตรฐาน" which the student can write down as "มาด-ระ-ทาน". The word for "diamond", spelled "เพชร", can be written phonemically as "เพ็ด". The upside is that this phonemic spelling helps with pronunciation; the downside is that spelling suffers.

My opinion is that it is just as easy for the student to learn enough Thai writing to jot down works phonemically as it is to learn some arcane, non-standard phonetic symbolic notation.

The best option, to my mind, is do do like Mr. MacWalen does and just learn learn correct Thai. However, for those who are looking for some shortcut, consider the Thai phonemic system.

[MacWalen]

I think it's a misunderstanding that learning the Thai alphabet and writing system takes a long time. It's really not that hard.

In the traject to from a complete beginner to having a "workable" knowledge of Thai, learning the writing system (until a level that allows you to read Thai) probably takes less than 1% of your time.

When choosing a course you'll have to decide if you want to learn the writing system yourself, or with help from the school. If you expect help from the school, the school should dedicate at least a few lessons to it before actually using Thai script only (else you're just wasting your time there).

Using phonetic script, either made by yourself or out of some book works counterproductive, because unlearning/forgetting things takes much more time than learning. And to be able to quickly read/write Thai you'll have to unlearn the phonetic script.

I agree with Kris and ant to add that there is a middle ground. The Royal Institute Dictionary uses a "phonemic" approach to pronunciation. In addition to the correct Thai spelling of a particular word or phrase, the dictionary also shows how the word is to be pronounced using Thai orthography. Using Thai orthography (consonants, vowels, and tone marks) to indicate Thai sounds, a student can write down the sounds of the words he or she is learning with an almost unambiguous correctness. And, this phonemic approach requires the student to learn many fewer Thai consonants.

For example, the word for "standards" is "มาตรฐาน" which the student can write down as "มาด-ระ-ทาน". The word for "diamond", spelled "เพชร", can be written phonemically as "เพ็ด". The upside is that this phonemic spelling helps with pronunciation; the downside is that spelling suffers.

My opinion is that it is just as easy for the student to learn enough Thai writing to jot down works phonemically as it is to learn some arcane, non-standard phonetic symbolic notation.

The best option, to my mind, is do do like Mr. MacWalen does and just learn learn correct Thai. However, for those who are looking for some shortcut, consider the Thai phonemic system.

The idea of learning the Thai script right for the very beginning is catching on. Just about everybody agrees with this approach.

[poanoi]

I disagree.

If i learn speaking form first, i'll have a fighting chance knowing what i'm reading,

it is fundamental to know words, or i won't know what i'm reading, and lose motivation in a heartbeat.

Secondly the structure in speaking form is different from writing form,

so speaking the writing form sounds silly at best, or plain gibberish at worst.

Thirdly it takes some seriously motivated student to struggle with writing Thai without recognizing squat, yes it can be done, but it sure aint for everyone.

If the main objective is to read/write Thai, yep, Walen is the way to go, assuming there is a genuine interest, which i don't have.

Perhaps the single most important aspect of studying is that it is enjoyable,

i had a couple of class mates that enjoyed writing more than speaking,

the rest of us however, much preferred speaking/understanding.

Of one thing i am certain, had the teacher start right away force feeding thai consonants/birdsh!t down my throat, i'd be gone the same day i got my visa & 5 year driving license.

(in fact that was my original plan but it turned out to be enjoyable)

After a little more than a year i could accept it in small portions, i now had the database and general understanding of the rhythm of the language to figure out the sentence.

Lastly i agree that at some point, karaoke thai won't fully cut it any longer, even german letters can't fully replicate all sounds.

In fact some just don't seem to have the ability to pronounce it right no matter how much they practice !

Edited October 18, 2011 by poanoi

[RickBradford]

If i learn speaking form first, i'll have a fighting chance knowing what i'm reading,

I think it depends on how you learn -- there are 'visual' learners, 'audio' learners, 'kinaesthetic' learners and a few others.

I am a 'visual' learner and will never remember a Thai word until I have seen it written down, in which case Thai script is the only sensible way to go.

Audio learners can hear a word and reproduce it without recourse to writing, and so learning the script is less important for them, and I guess the same applies to 'kinaesthetic' learners (I've never met one, but apparently they learn by acting out the word or phrase)

[khaan]

I think it's a misunderstanding that learning the Thai alphabet and writing system takes a long time. It's really not that hard.

In the traject to from a complete beginner to having a "workable" knowledge of Thai, learning the writing system (until a level that allows you to read Thai) probably takes less than 1% of your time.

When choosing a course you'll have to decide if you want to learn the writing system yourself, or with help from the school. If you expect help from the school, the school should dedicate at least a few lessons to it before actually using Thai script only (else you're just wasting your time there).

Using phonetic script, either made by yourself or out of some book works counterproductive, because unlearning/forgetting things takes much more time than learning. And to be able to quickly read/write Thai you'll have to unlearn the phonetic script.

I agree with Kris and ant to add that there is a middle ground. The Royal Institute Dictionary uses a "phonemic" approach to pronunciation. In addition to the correct Thai spelling of a particular word or phrase, the dictionary also shows how the word is to be pronounced using Thai orthography. Using Thai orthography (consonants, vowels, and tone marks) to indicate Thai sounds, a student can write down the sounds of the words he or she is learning with an almost unambiguous correctness. And, this phonemic approach requires the student to learn many fewer Thai consonants.

For example, the word for "standards" is "มาตรฐาน" which the student can write down as "มาด-ระ-ทาน". The word for "diamond", spelled "เพชร", can be written phonemically as "เพ็ด". The upside is that this phonemic spelling helps with pronunciation; the downside is that spelling suffers.

My opinion is that it is just as easy for the student to learn enough Thai writing to jot down works phonemically as it is to learn some arcane, non-standard phonetic symbolic notation.

The best option, to my mind, is do do like Mr. MacWalen does and just learn learn correct Thai. However, for those who are looking for some shortcut, consider the Thai phonemic system.

The idea of learning the Thai script right for the very beginning is catching on. Just about everybody agrees with this approach.

Just out of curiosity would you happen to know anything about the history of the shapes and forms which make up the Thai alphabet?were they meant to have any resemblance to the meaning attached to them when they were first drawn?

I can perhaps see a slight resemblance to certain shapes that correspond to the name in a few of them but others -no?

Edited October 18, 2011 by khaan

[khaan]

The idea of learning the Thai script right for the very beginning is catching on. Just about everybody agrees with this approach.

This one other question please. If you are suggesting it's better to learn the alphabet before attending formal classes,

how important/advisable is it to learn the specific tones attributed to each character of the alphabet also before starting classes? Will this speed up the understanding of the tone system in general if I attend at Walen?

Edited October 18, 2011 by khaan

[poanoi]

Khmer is derived/imported from Sanskrit, and Thai in turn is derived/imported from Khmer

[MacWalen]

The idea of learning the Thai script right for the very beginning is catching on. Just about everybody agrees with this approach.

This one other question please. If you are suggesting it's better to learn the alphabet before attending formal classes,

how important/advisable is it to learn the specific tones attributed to each character of the alphabet also before starting classes? Will this speed up the understanding of the tone system in general if I attend at Walen?

Sure, if you can learn the Thai script before joining Walen it will save you time and money. If you do not have time or motivation to do it, it will be enough if you just attend your classes and you will make good progress.

Also all this nonsense that Walen is not teaching to speak, of course we do. You learn to understand, speak and read Thai at the same time. Direct method works. I was observing one class today in Sukhumvit with our teacher Nat and students were amazing.

Walen School - great choice!

[khaan]

The idea of learning the Thai script right for the very beginning is catching on. Just about everybody agrees with this approach.

This one other question please. If you are suggesting it's better to learn the alphabet before attending formal classes,

how important/advisable is it to learn the specific tones attributed to each character of the alphabet also before starting classes? Will this speed up the understanding of the tone system in general if I attend at Walen?

Sure, if you can learn the Thai script before joining Walen it will save you time and money. If you do not have time or motivation to do it, it will be enough if you just attend your classes and you will make good progress.

Also all this nonsense that Walen is not teaching to speak, of course we do. You learn to understand, speak and read Thai at the same time. Direct method works. I was observing one class today in Sukhumvit with our teacher Nat and students were amazing.

Walen School - great choice!

Ok so after I have done this I will attend your Chiang Mai branch for a trial lesson

[HappyInCM]

I think it's a misunderstanding that learning the Thai alphabet and writing system takes a long time. It's really not that hard.

In the traject to from a complete beginner to having a "workable" knowledge of Thai, learning the writing system (until a level that allows you to read Thai) probably takes less than 1% of your time.

When choosing a course you'll have to decide if you want to learn the writing system yourself, or with help from the school. If you expect help from the school, the school should dedicate at least a few lessons to it before actually using Thai script only (else you're just wasting your time there).

Using phonetic script, either made by yourself or out of some book works counterproductive, because unlearning/forgetting things takes much more time than learning. And to be able to quickly read/write Thai you'll have to unlearn the phonetic script.

I agree with Kris and ant to add that there is a middle ground. The Royal Institute Dictionary uses a "phonemic" approach to pronunciation. In addition to the correct Thai spelling of a particular word or phrase, the dictionary also shows how the word is to be pronounced using Thai orthography. Using Thai orthography (consonants, vowels, and tone marks) to indicate Thai sounds, a student can write down the sounds of the words he or she is learning with an almost unambiguous correctness. And, this phonemic approach requires the student to learn many fewer Thai consonants.

For example, the word for "standards" is "มาตรฐาน" which the student can write down as "มาด-ระ-ทาน". The word for "diamond", spelled "เพชร", can be written phonemically as "เพ็ด". The upside is that this phonemic spelling helps with pronunciation; the downside is that spelling suffers.

My opinion is that it is just as easy for the student to learn enough Thai writing to jot down works phonemically as it is to learn some arcane, non-standard phonetic symbolic notation.

The best option, to my mind, is do do like Mr. MacWalen does and just learn learn correct Thai. However, for those who are looking for some shortcut, consider the Thai phonemic system.

The idea of learning the Thai script right for the very beginning is catching on. Just about everybody agrees with this approach.

However, "everyone" doesn't seem to include the famous intensive course at Chula that costs 25K for 5 weeks and is designed and taught by people with masters degrees in teaching Thai to foreigners. I believe they start in the third semester. Hmmm.

[kriswillems]

The idea of learning the Thai script right for the very beginning is catching on. Just about everybody agrees with this approach.

However, "everyone" doesn't seem to include the famous intensive course at Chula that costs 25K for 5 weeks and is designed and taught by people with masters degrees in teaching Thai to foreigners. I believe they start in the third semester. Hmmm.

Although I think starting with the Thai script first is the best way to go,

I believe that all "good" schools in BKK (including Chula) use phonetic script in the beginning (this is my opinion, and I might be wrong).

I think the quality of the education depends on much more factors than whether and when the school uses phonetic script.

Edited October 21, 2011 by kriswillems