Getting To The Truth

[Boon Mee]

It may be stating the obvious to say that many Thai girls (but not all) don't view honesty as a virtue, but it I have become cynical enough to doubt even the most seemingly trustworthy TG. It seems to be a cultural thing that a TG can always justify her dishonesty in her own mind.

My question is this - is there anything that can be done to get a TG to admit to the truth? Do they give an honest answer if they swear to Buddha, ancestors, etc...? Not that I want to back anyone into a corner, but it would be quite nice to have a trump card for getting the facts when the truth needs to be known.

Learned straight-away that in Asia - not specifically Thailand - Truth is a slippery substance.

[zzap]

There are more important values than telling the truth- i.e. saving face, protecting others and working towards the higher goal of longterm harmony. It's not always ill-will.

A pushy, investigative attitude will get you no-where!

[TokyoT]

There are more important values than telling the truth- i.e. saving face, protecting others and working towards the higher goal of longterm harmony. It's not always ill-will.

A pushy, investigative attitude will get you no-where!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess that depends upon your perspective. As I was raised with a value system that placed truth and honesty above pretty much all others – even family.

Without honesty there can be no honor – there is no honor in deceit (ie lying).

This particular ideology is something I continually struggle with while living in Asia – as honor and honesty seem to be in no way connected, and face rules all. Whereas I was raised to believe that face is a superficial image that has little meaning without honor and integrity based in honesty.

[The Dude]

These last 3 posts are very important to understanding this issue

[Braccobaldo]

...sometimes is also better don't know the truth....

[The Dude]

Another thing that I find strange is that many times the truth will be told about something that in the west is lied about commonly; something like age. I think that lying is only resorted to when backed into a corner

[Jai Dee]

Another thing that I find strange is that many times the truth will be told about something that in the west is lied about commonly; something like age. I think that lying is only resorted to when backed into a corner

I think that's the first post I've read from The Dude that wasn't written in the third person.

Wot's happening dude... you dig me?

[Tyree D.]

Oh, and can we stop calling people 'tg' and 'bg', please? Such terms suggest that people fit into stereotypes ('all tg's lie'). Such generalisations may seem to make the world simpler to deal with but they are just not true. I also think that such abbreviations are a sign of disrespect in that we are saying the subject is so unimportant to us that we cannot be bothered to write the name or description in full.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All TGs are Thai. And all BGs work in bars. And they are all f......female. I hate to inform you, but this is true.

[TokyoT]

Oh, and can we stop calling people 'tg' and 'bg', please? Such terms suggest that people fit into stereotypes ('all tg's lie'). Such generalisations may seem to make the world simpler to deal with but they are just not true. I also think that such abbreviations are a sign of disrespect in that we are saying the subject is so unimportant to us that we cannot be bothered to write the name or description in full.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All TGs are Thai. And all BGs work in bars. And they are all f......female. I hate to inform you, but this is true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, but some people that farang’s think are BG’s are actually not female at all – contrary to most outward (fully clothed) appearances. Which kind of brings us back to the topic of lying or deception.

[Morden]

All TGs are Thai.  And all BGs work in bars.  And they are all f......female.  I hate to inform you, but this is true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point was that not all 'tg's' are the same and not all 'bg's' are the same. We should not label people in such sweeping ways but consider them as individuals.

Several recent posts in this thread seem to assume that lying and dishonesty are unique to parts of Asia. Or is it that some people believe that 'truth and honesty' are unique to the West? Truth is often a very personal matter and depends on our own perceptions. For example, some people believe that Bush and Blair told the truth about the need to invade Iraq, at least to the extent that they repeated what their own intelligence agencies had told them. Other people think that they are incurable liars. With the limited amount of factual knowledge available to most of us, we each can only make our own assumptions about which is the truth.

zzap has made an excellent point:

'There are more important values than telling the truth- i.e. saving face, protecting others and working towards the higher goal of longterm harmony. It's not always ill-will.

A pushy, investigative attitude will get you no-where!'

Accept that Thailand has a different culture from the ones in which most of us were raised. If you want to be there, you will be happier if you go along with that view rather than try to change things.

[TokyoT]

All TGs are Thai.  And all BGs work in bars.  And they are all f......female.  I hate to inform you, but this is true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point was that not all 'tg's' are the same and not all 'bg's' are the same. We should not label people in such sweeping ways but consider them as individuals.

Several recent posts in this thread seem to assume that lying and dishonesty are unique to parts of Asia. Or is it that some people believe that 'truth and honesty' are unique to the West? Truth is often a very personal matter and depends on our own perceptions. For example, some people believe that Bush and Blair told the truth about the need to invade Iraq, at least to the extent that they repeated what their own intelligence agencies had told them. Other people think that they are incurable liars. With the limited amount of factual knowledge available to most of us, we each can only make our own assumptions about which is the truth.

zzap has made an excellent point:

'There are more important values than telling the truth- i.e. saving face, protecting others and working towards the higher goal of longterm harmony. It's not always ill-will.

A pushy, investigative attitude will get you no-where!'

Accept that Thailand has a different culture from the ones in which most of us were raised. If you want to be there, you will be happier if you go along with that view rather than try to change things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lying and dishonesty are certainly not unique to Asia or any other part of the world for that matter. I think everyone understands that people from all over the world will and do tell lies. The separation seems to be that lying and dishonesty seem to be more acceptable practices – which can even be supported by some posts including your own in attempting to justify lying and dishonesty – i.e. there are more important values than telling the truth. While this may be the case in your value system it is not the case in mine. This does not mean my value system is any better than yours or that yours is better than mine. Only that they are different.

As I stated in my earlier post I was raised to believe that pretty much nothing is more important than the truth – not even family. My values are pretty much based upon truth. As truth becomes the foundations of integrity, honesty, honor, and even justice – all require truth over all others.

As far as accepting Thailand as different and not attempting to change things – I will agree that this is true in many regards and in particular day-to-day mundane activities. But I do not feel this to be the case in regard to truth. I made it very clear to my wife (girlfriend at the time – TG if you will), that honesty was more important to me than anything else, and I expected her never to lie to me about anything. In turn I told her to never ask me a question if she could not accept a truthful answer. This is not to say that my wife has never lied to me, but I am confident that she has never lied to me on a matter of any significance. If I ask her a question “in company” she will delay a response until we are alone if she is uncomfortable telling the truth when others can hear.

I also have a little daughter and I can assure you that she will be raised – as I was – with truth as the foundation of her values. So while I am not so out of touch to believe that I can change the whole of Thailand, I have made it clear to those close to me that lying will do nothing but damage our relationship, and possibly end it.

While I am not so over the top to say that there is absolutely no circumstances in which lying is not a viable alternative, I think that IMHO at least one of the examples is not valid, one is questionable, and the third would depend greatly on the circumstances surrounding the situation.

Not valid to lie to save face – Again my opinion and certainly not the only opinion. As I mentioned in my earlier post, face to me is nothing more than a superficial image that should not be supported by lies.

Questionably valid – Long term harmony – as I find it hard to believe that long term harmony can be supported by a bed of lies – short term certainly, but long term I doubt it. In the long term harmony is obtained when units are in touch with each other, and this can not be obtained based upon lies.

Circumstances determine – protecting other – There are certainly circumstances where lying could be justified in the defense of the abuse of others. But again I think this is only a short term solution to any problem.

[The Dude]

I have asked for directions in Thailand a number of times and am never told by a Thai that they don't know. They always tell you something even if perhaps they are not sure. I always attributed this to face. Would that be true?

[Jeff1]

...sometimes is also better don't know the truth....

Yup , Sometimes the truth is not told to protect you .

[fanta rood]

I guess that depends upon your perspective.  As I was raised with a value system that placed truth and honesty above pretty much all others – even family. 

Without honesty there can be no honor – there is no honor in deceit (ie lying). 

This particular ideology is something I continually struggle with while living in Asia – as honor and honesty seem to be in no way connected, and face rules all.  Whereas I was raised to believe that face is a superficial image that has little meaning without honor and integrity based in honesty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you

But what is tg and bg? Thai girl, boy girl? I'm confused

Edited November 17, 2005 by fanta rood

[gbt71fa]

Honesty, integrity and high morals are not important in Thailand.

The only positive way to know if a Thai is not being truthfull.

Watch to see if the lips are moving.

Never, ever, trust a Thai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you have this confused with the "I hate Thailand" thread. People are people.

[BambinA]

But what is tg and bg? Thai girl, boy girl? I'm confused

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

tg-thai girl

bg-bar girl

[britmaveric]

But what is tg and bg? Thai girl, boy girl? I'm confused

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

tg-thai girl

bg-bar girl

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to be confused with tgf, tbf, tw, or th.

[BambinA]

Not to be confused with tgf, tbf, tw, or th. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

heheh many abbrev. make me confused

tw = the &lt;deleted&gt; ?

Edited November 17, 2005 by BambinA

[Morden]

All TGs are Thai.  And all BGs work in bars.  And they are all f......female.  I hate to inform you, but this is true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point was that not all 'tg's' are the same and not all 'bg's' are the same. We should not label people in such sweeping ways but consider them as individuals.

Several recent posts in this thread seem to assume that lying and dishonesty are unique to parts of Asia. Or is it that some people believe that 'truth and honesty' are unique to the West? Truth is often a very personal matter and depends on our own perceptions. For example, some people believe that Bush and Blair told the truth about the need to invade Iraq, at least to the extent that they repeated what their own intelligence agencies had told them. Other people think that they are incurable liars. With the limited amount of factual knowledge available to most of us, we each can only make our own assumptions about which is the truth.

zzap has made an excellent point:

'There are more important values than telling the truth- i.e. saving face, protecting others and working towards the higher goal of longterm harmony. It's not always ill-will.

A pushy, investigative attitude will get you no-where!'

Accept that Thailand has a different culture from the ones in which most of us were raised. If you want to be there, you will be happier if you go along with that view rather than try to change things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lying and dishonesty are certainly not unique to Asia or any other part of the world for that matter. I think everyone understands that people from all over the world will and do tell lies. The separation seems to be that lying and dishonesty seem to be more acceptable practices – which can even be supported by some posts including your own in attempting to justify lying and dishonesty – i.e. there are more important values than telling the truth. While this may be the case in your value system it is not the case in mine. This does not mean my value system is any better than yours or that yours is better than mine. Only that they are different.

As I stated in my earlier post I was raised to believe that pretty much nothing is more important than the truth – not even family. My values are pretty much based upon truth. As truth becomes the foundations of integrity, honesty, honor, and even justice – all require truth over all others.

As far as accepting Thailand as different and not attempting to change things – I will agree that this is true in many regards and in particular day-to-day mundane activities. But I do not feel this to be the case in regard to truth. I made it very clear to my wife (girlfriend at the time – TG if you will), that honesty was more important to me than anything else, and I expected her never to lie to me about anything. In turn I told her to never ask me a question if she could not accept a truthful answer. This is not to say that my wife has never lied to me, but I am confident that she has never lied to me on a matter of any significance. If I ask her a question “in company” she will delay a response until we are alone if she is uncomfortable telling the truth when others can hear.

I also have a little daughter and I can assure you that she will be raised – as I was – with truth as the foundation of her values. So while I am not so out of touch to believe that I can change the whole of Thailand, I have made it clear to those close to me that lying will do nothing but damage our relationship, and possibly end it.

While I am not so over the top to say that there is absolutely no circumstances in which lying is not a viable alternative, I think that IMHO at least one of the examples is not valid, one is questionable, and the third would depend greatly on the circumstances surrounding the situation.

Not valid to lie to save face – Again my opinion and certainly not the only opinion. As I mentioned in my earlier post, face to me is nothing more than a superficial image that should not be supported by lies.

Questionably valid – Long term harmony – as I find it hard to believe that long term harmony can be supported by a bed of lies – short term certainly, but long term I doubt it. In the long term harmony is obtained when units are in touch with each other, and this can not be obtained based upon lies.

Circumstances determine – protecting other – There are certainly circumstances where lying could be justified in the defense of the abuse of others. But again I think this is only a short term solution to any problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought at first that you were being rather simplistic in this post but, towards the end, you mellowed your view, or perhaps changed it; I'm not sure which. Truth is not always an absolute value and neither is it always complete. With the best will in the world, our truth is only our perception and no-one elses. However much you strive to tell the truth and attempt to impose your will on your family, you might do well to consider that you live in a world that is not as truthful as you might like it to be.

Oh, and if you read my post more carefully, you will see that I did not condone lying.

[TokyoT]

The thread is getting kind of long, and since I am posting the next post after your I will post a general reply instead of a specific reply. Healthy discussion is for the benefit of all.

Absolute truth indeed is merely an idea to be strived for. And I have no delusions that any particular part of the world is living their lives without deceit, lying, and dishonesty - including my own little world. But what I find distressing is the level of acceptance of deceit, lying, and dishonesty I have encountered during my years in Asia that appear to be acceptable by society at large. It is obvious to me that many Asian cultures do not place the value on truth that I was raised with, and while I want my daughter to grow and experience the culture of both her mother and father. I will attempt to raise her with the level of respect for the truth that I was raised with. As I feel truth is the bedrock to integrity, honor, and justice.

As with many things there are always exceptions to the rule, and I am certainly not saying that there are no situations where lying may not be the best alternative. But IMHO these situations are few and far between.

[Morden]

Tokyo T,

I'm in full agreement with your previous post but would add that matters seem to be no better elsewhere in the world. Lying is acceptable in the UK, for example, in business and politics as well as private life and is accompanied by a generally poor moral code. Perhaps it has always been thus and I have noticed only recently. I have to say that my awareness of the poor regard of the interests of individuals and family members in the UK has been heightened by seeing the much higher standards in Thailand.

I think that, in Thailand at least, what Westerners see as lies are often no more than attempts to please by giving an answer even if it has to be an invented one - a charming little habit that one encounters in Ireland too! - or a misunderstanding caused by cultural or language differences. I do get frustrated by the way that information drips out gradually and some important fact emerges only after I have made a committment. That is often just the Thai way rather than a cunning trap but the same technique is used frequently in the UK in a deliberate attempt to deceive.

In short, it's no better elsewhere, it's not always deliberate dishonesty, we have little choice but to live amongst it, we don't have to join in.

My comments are, of course a generalisations and individuals will vary from what we might regard as their national norm or average. However, I feel sure that standards have declined in the UK over several decades to the point here I can see no way back during my lifetime. I hold on the the belief that things are better in Thailand (rural Thailand at least) and will remain so until I hang up my flip flops for the last time.

[gburns57au]

It may be stating the obvious to say that many Thai girls (but not all) don't view honesty as a virtue, but it I have become cynical enough to doubt even the most seemingly trustworthy TG. It seems to be a cultural thing that a TG can always justify her dishonesty in her own mind.

My question is this - is there anything that can be done to get a TG to admit to the truth? Do they give an honest answer if they swear to Buddha, ancestors, etc...? Not that I want to back anyone into a corner, but it would be quite nice to have a trump card for getting the facts when the truth needs to be known.

Once again as with the questions about PI's.....if you cant trust a person then you will never believe what they say to you.

If you believe that all Thai girls are dishonest then this may not be the forum for you. And certainly if you believe that Thai Girls are all dishonest then Thailand is not the place for you to be looking for a partner.

"you want the truth, you cant handle the truth"

Edited November 18, 2005 by gburns57au

[girlx]

TokyoT I agree with pretty much everything you said... makes it really hard to live in Thailand some times!!!

[Ijustwannateach]

I've found that a particularly Thai mannerism in lying is to deny vociferously a bad thing that is true, in a peculiarly pointed manner- as if they know how obvious it is that the thing is true and need to try to deny it verbally.

For example:

"I don't care about money" = "I'm avaricious as heck."

"I don't have any other boyfriends" = "I'm the world's biggest butterfly."

"I'm NOT a liar!" = "I'm lying right now!!!"

Please note that I'm not claiming Thais are more dishonest than other people- just that I've noticed this quirk in several unconnected persons (whom I found *were* lying) occurring too often to be a chance thing.

"Steven"

[zzap]

And certainly if you believe that Thai Girls are all dishonest then Thailand is not the place for you to be looking for a partner.

Yep, and 'my Thai' certainly was 'dishonest' with me in the beginning, hiding facts about herself, but I am glad she was, otherwise this beautiful relationship wouldn't have evolved...

[Sheryl]

It seems to be a cultural thing that a TG can always justify her dishonesty in her own mind.

I agree with this statement.

There is no point in holding a gun to thier heads or forcing a polygraph test.

Just spend plenty of time reading between the lines and dont deny yourself the opportunity mimic thier behaviour. A relationship with a Thai lady is about understanding and accomodationing the cultural differences. Dont feel obliged to tell the truth yourself all the time, have fun out there.

Yes, a little cultural understanding is needed here. Thais have a different concept about honesty that westerners do. Also, thai comunication is much more indirect. "Yes" or "OK" often mean "No" and to a Thai that meaning is obvious and the answer not a lie at all, just a face-saving way of expressing it. Likewise, repair people and others will promise to do something " tomorrow" and then never show, again not a lie, the " tomorrow" was an indirect "never". It takes a lot of time and experience but eventually one learns to discern which yeses are yes and which are really no, and when " tomorrow" is real and when it is really code for "sorry, no".

The other culutral thing is the desire to keep interactions harmonious and avoid disappointing people, therefore Thais will often tell you what they think you want to hear irrespective of whether it is remotely true. In their minds this is being considerate; to us, it is a lack of consideration since it will cause the person more problems in the long run.

So in short, what is dishonest by western norms is not always dishonest by Thai norms. That being said, there are of course cases in which Thais are, by their standards, dishonest, and this will be encountered when dealing with people who are in the business of hustling other peole -- sales personnel, and yes, bar girls. This is how they make their living. If the latter situation is what inspired your post, try spending time with ordinary Thai women instead, keeping in mind the bit about indirect communication.

[Morden]

Sheryl,

Thanks for your post. What you say echoes what I have learned and it has taken quite a bit of advice and careful listening to learn it.

I have a lot still to learn about Thai culture and there will be misunderstaning along the way. If I was not married to a Thai from a traditional environment I don't suppose that I would learn much about the way they interact. Alternatively, as you point out, I might learn it from the wrong people. It surprises me how many Westerners just assume that they can go to another country and find the culture to be the same as their own. Worse still, expect the locals to change their ways to suit the foreigner. It's like the Brits. who want British food when they go to Spain. If you don't like the way it is, don't go!

[zzap]

Which doesn't mean, i can't have toast for breakfast!

[Morden]

Which doesn't mean, i can't have toast for breakfast!  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tostados, I think!

[Thaipwriter]

It seems to be a cultural thing that a TG can always justify her dishonesty in her own mind.

I agree with this statement.

There is no point in holding a gun to thier heads or forcing a polygraph test.

Just spend plenty of time reading between the lines and dont deny yourself the opportunity mimic thier behaviour. A relationship with a Thai lady is about understanding and accomodationing the cultural differences. Dont feel obliged to tell the truth yourself all the time, have fun out there.

Likewise, repair people and others will promise to do something " tomorrow" and then never show, again not a lie, the " tomorrow" was an indirect "never". It takes a lot of time and experience but eventually one learns to discern which yeses are yes and which are really no

When my grass needs cutting I call five different gardeners up and ask them all to come over and take care of my garden. They all say tomorrow or whatever and i try and figure out who is fobbing me off.

Normally only one set of folks turns up to do the job and then i reflect on the conversations I had with the other guys. this can teach you quickly how to fathom out these sometimes unfathomable folks