Abhisit Ready To Assist On Flood Control If Invited By Thai Govt

[dutchweller]

"This is an opportunity for her to showcase her abilities for problem solving, and to act decisively," he said."

I love this line Is he being Intentionally Flippant???

I think The Current PM is doing just that "showcase her abilities for problem solving, and to act decisively" and the Whole of Thailand is reaping the rewards from her exceptional skills.

[scotbeve]

Of course the annointed one with so much executive experience has it all under control

Someone has it under control alright..... can't speak about it tho'.... Wonder when the water will cease to be released from the 2 dams? Doesn't actually help now does it?

[animatic]

Of course the annointed one with so much executive experience has it all under control

Someone has it under control alright..... can't speak about it tho'.... Wonder when the water will cease to be released from the 2 dams? Doesn't actually help now does it?

It's three dams,

and as long as the dams are over-filling and run-in is too much to hold back for useful dry season 'hold levels', it will run out.

The problem was holding it in TOO LONG, and NOT releasing moderate amounts earlier. When they finally did, under threat of bursting dams killing 10's of thousands, it was too much for the land to hold. It's been down hill ever since. (pun not intended)

A cabinet minister has been implicated in telling the dam operators NOT to release the water back in July or early August. (likely to save the rice crop pledging scheme kickbacks / paybacks) He may well be in for the hot seat when there is time to deal with him.

Edited October 29, 2011 by animatic

[ajarnmark]

"The prime minister must show leadership. This is an opportunity for her to showcase her abilities for problem solving, and to act decisively," he said.

This is a great quote!

From someone who never showed his (non-existent) leadership skills ever... even now, instead of helping people, he is saying that he will help if PM asks him... what a joke... why not go ahead n start helping people without anyone asking him...

[whybother]

From someone who never showed his (non-existent) leadership skills ever... even now, instead of helping people, he is saying that he will help if PM asks him... what a joke... why not go ahead n start helping people without anyone asking him...

He is not in a position to "assist with flood control". He needs to have authority to do that.

[scotbeve]

Of course the annointed one with so much executive experience has it all under control

Someone has it under control alright..... can't speak about it tho'.... Wonder when the water will cease to be released from the 2 dams? Doesn't actually help now does it?

It's three dams,

and as long as the dams are over-filling and run-in is too much to hold back for useful dry season 'hold levels', it will run out.

The problem was holding it in TOO LONG, and NOT releasing moderate amounts earlier. When they finally did, under threat of bursting dams killing 10's of thousands, it was too much for the land to hold. It's been down hill ever since. (pun not intended)

A cabinet minister has been implicated in telling the dam operators NOT to release the water back in July or early August. (likely to save the rice crop pledging scheme kickbacks / paybacks) He may well be in for the hot seat when there is time to deal with him.

Animatic,

Yes, indeed, 3 dams... I stand corrected. Do you, or any other TV members have any verifiable info concerning the present level of these dams? And if so and under the 70% capacity, why would the dams continue releasing water when the weather looks as if it (heavy La Nina rains) are letting up?

[rubl]

Animatic,

Yes, indeed, 3 dams... I stand corrected. Do you, or any other TV members have any verifiable info concerning the present level of these dams? And if so and under the 70% capacity, why would the dams continue releasing water when the weather looks as if it (heavy La Nina rains) are letting up?

I was relying on you for that info. you're the one who goes on about releasing water from dams and why that should be

[Payboy]

From someone who never showed his (non-existent) leadership skills ever... even now, instead of helping people, he is saying that he will help if PM asks him... what a joke... why not go ahead n start helping people without anyone asking him...

He is not in a position to "assist with flood control". He needs to have authority to do that.

No one's stopping him from publishing his flood control ideas while Yingluck uncaps her Mont Blanc to write that invitation.

[rubl]

From someone who never showed his (non-existent) leadership skills ever... even now, instead of helping people, he is saying that he will help if PM asks him... what a joke... why not go ahead n start helping people without anyone asking him...

He is not in a position to "assist with flood control". He needs to have authority to do that.

No one's stopping him from publishing his flood control ideas while Yingluck uncaps her Mont Blanc to write that invitation.

That would be undue interference in government activities while under the invocation of the "Disaster Law". Less strict than a SoE would be, but anything the government doesn't like may and will be used against you.

You may continue filling sandbags though

[Payboy]

From someone who never showed his (non-existent) leadership skills ever... even now, instead of helping people, he is saying that he will help if PM asks him... what a joke... why not go ahead n start helping people without anyone asking him...

He is not in a position to "assist with flood control". He needs to have authority to do that.

No one's stopping him from publishing his flood control ideas while Yingluck uncaps her Mont Blanc to write that invitation.

That would be undue interference in government activities while under the invocation of the "Disaster Law". Less strict than a SoE would be, but anything the government doesn't like may and will be used against you.

You may continue filling sandbags though

Wow he's thought of everything.

[animatic]

Of course the annointed one with so much executive experience has it all under control

Someone has it under control alright..... can't speak about it tho'.... Wonder when the water will cease to be released from the 2 dams? Doesn't actually help now does it?

It's three dams,

and as long as the dams are over-filling and run-in is too much to hold back for useful dry season 'hold levels', it will run out.

The problem was holding it in TOO LONG, and NOT releasing moderate amounts earlier. When they finally did, under threat of bursting dams killing 10's of thousands, it was too much for the land to hold. It's been down hill ever since. (pun not intended)

A cabinet minister has been implicated in telling the dam operators NOT to release the water back in July or early August. (likely to save the rice crop pledging scheme kickbacks / paybacks) He may well be in for the hot seat when there is time to deal with him.

Animatic,

Yes, indeed, 3 dams... I stand corrected. Do you, or any other TV members have any verifiable info concerning the present level of these dams? And if so and under the 70% capacity, why would the dams continue releasing water when the weather looks as if it (heavy La Nina rains) are letting up?

No, I haven't seen current quotes on Dam hold. It seems to have been swamped from the news by southern affairs.

Even if the rains have left up, there is a time lag for ground water to get to the dam head, and that is variable based on geography and how water logged the land itself is. More waterlogged, the faster the water on top slides off, less waterlogged and it is more gradual, but still inevitable to arrive.

Because they have set rules based on measurements upstream that says if this much flows at this hight at this point multiplied with X Y Z other points, then we can expect this much more to enter the Dam Pond. So they let out enough to compensate for inflow and keep it topped with in specs for dry season.

Standard Dam 101. I friend was a civil engineer for the TVA in USA. He told me this.

Edited October 29, 2011 by animatic

[Orac]

No, I haven't seen current quotes on Dam hold.

snip....

Google is your friend

Bhumibol Dam, of which the current water level is 259.80 metres MSL or 13,399.77 million cubic metres, can retain additional 62.23 million cubic metres of water or 0.46% of its total capacity. Yesterday, 35.16 million cubic metres of water flowed into the dam. Today, the dam is releasing 40 cubic metres at the rate of 525 cubic metres per second to maintain the water level in the dam.

http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255410280017

[rogerdee123]

Although I agree it was bad judgement to be in the Maldives as the flood situation developed, Abhisit has absolutely no authority in the present Govt. What could he do besides the usual meaningless photo-op that the public has been conditioned to expect from politicians, TV actors, Hi-so personalities, visiting football stars, etc.

BUT ... on the other hand, WHERE is Charlerm ??? He's the <deleted> Deputy PM ! As is Sannan also! Shouldn't these top leaders in the Govt ... numbers #2 and #3 be a little more active in the situation instead of being AWOL for a week or two? Instead of blaming Abhisit for being absent for 3 days?

I have tried not to mention Khun Thaksin himself ... but alas I can't help myself .... who has been strangely silent (besides his posters on the relief trucks) and last week's claim that he was sending Korean pumps, for which the Irrigation Dept or anyone else in authority seems to know anything about (maybe he sent them to the Udorn Loving club).

Why don't we call the roll and see who is AWOL?

[whybother]

Google is your friend

Bhumibol Dam, of which the current water level is 259.80 metres MSL or 13,399.77 million cubic metres, can retain additional 62.23 million cubic metres of water or 0.46% of its total capacity. Yesterday, 35.16 million cubic metres of water flowed into the dam. Today, the dam is releasing 40 cubic metres at the rate of 525 cubic metres per second to maintain the water level in the dam.

http://thainews.prd....id=255410280017

So, basically, it's full, so has to keep releasing water at, at least, the same rate as it's inflows.

[Scott]

No, it's not nicely stated, it's argumentative and I suggest you limit your posts to the OP and stop responding to nonsense.

People have the right to their opinion. You have the right to disagree. You also have the right not to respond.

Keep it civil.

[rogerdee123]

No, it's not nicely stated, it's argumentative and I suggest you limit your posts to the OP and stop responding to nonsense.

People have the right to their opinion. You have the right to disagree. You also have the right not to respond.

Keep it civil.

Your're right.

I should have ignored the troll.

It just came at me at a particularly wrong moment.

apologies to the TVF members.

[animatic]

Although I agree it was bad judgement to be in the Maldives as the flood situation developed, Abhisit has absolutely no authority in the present Govt. What could he do besides the usual meaningless photo-op that the public has been conditioned to expect from politicians, TV actors, Hi-so personalities, visiting football stars, etc.

BUT ... on the other hand, WHERE is Charlerm ??? He's the <deleted> Deputy PM ! As is Sannan also! Shouldn't these top leaders in the Govt ... numbers #2 and #3 be a little more active in the situation instead of being AWOL for a week or two? Instead of blaming Abhisit for being absent for 3 days?

I have tried not to mention Khun Thaksin himself ... but alas I can't help myself .... who has been strangely silent (besides his posters on the relief trucks) and last week's claim that he was sending Korean pumps, for which the Irrigation Dept or anyone else in authority seems to know anything about (maybe he sent them to the Udorn Loving club).

Why don't we call the roll and see who is AWOL?

Sanoh, Banharn, Chavalit...Chuan, Suthep... Red Verra, Panlop too.

Most of the old guard heavy king makers and agitators.

Apparently it took the complete flooding of Bangkok to make Jatuporn's braying mouth go to ground.

Everyone knows when you are well painted with feces, the the color washes off, but the stench remains a long time after. Better to say away from the wide angle spray pumps.

Edited October 29, 2011 by animatic

[scotbeve]

No, I haven't seen current quotes on Dam hold.

snip....

Google is your friend

Bhumibol Dam, of which the current water level is 259.80 metres MSL or 13,399.77 million cubic metres, can retain additional 62.23 million cubic metres of water or 0.46% of its total capacity. Yesterday, 35.16 million cubic metres of water flowed into the dam. Today, the dam is releasing 40 cubic metres at the rate of 525 cubic metres per second to maintain the water level in the dam.

http://thainews.prd....id=255410280017

Thanks for that Orac.... seen something like this but had forgotten where I left it / bookmarked it.

[scotbeve]

Of course the annointed one with so much executive experience has it all under control

Someone has it under control alright..... can't speak about it tho'.... Wonder when the water will cease to be released from the 2 dams? Doesn't actually help now does it?

It's three dams,

and as long as the dams are over-filling and run-in is too much to hold back for useful dry season 'hold levels', it will run out.

The problem was holding it in TOO LONG, and NOT releasing moderate amounts earlier. When they finally did, under threat of bursting dams killing 10's of thousands, it was too much for the land to hold. It's been down hill ever since. (pun not intended)

A cabinet minister has been implicated in telling the dam operators NOT to release the water back in July or early August. (likely to save the rice crop pledging scheme kickbacks / paybacks) He may well be in for the hot seat when there is time to deal with him.

There is this animatic....

Problems out of the ordinary and causes

Tho' it's in Thai. Says pretty much of what your friend states and gives the measures up to certain dates. It will be interesting to see the board of inquiry results. But for some reason, I think we (avg people on the street) will not see the results.

[animatic]

No, I haven't seen current quotes on Dam hold.

snip....

Google is your friend

Bhumibol Dam, of which the current water level is 259.80 metres MSL or 13,399.77 million cubic metres, can retain additional 62.23 million cubic metres of water or 0.46% of its total capacity. Yesterday, 35.16 million cubic metres of water flowed into the dam. Today, the dam is releasing 40 cubic metres at the rate of 525 cubic metres per second to maintain the water level in the dam.

http://thainews.prd....id=255410280017

Thanks for that Orac.... seen something like this but had forgotten where I left it / bookmarked it.

0.46% of total. They are running at the very edge.

I think that 6th fact is 40 million cubic meters.

So, if the other 2 dams other are also releasing in that ball park,

there is another 85-120 MILLION cubic meters of water still heading south from the far north.

Just slightly faster than the dams have water coming into them STILL.

Who says this will be over Nov. 6th?

[animatic]

ScotB thanks for that excellent page, my translation is fair, but the idea is clear.

Even just that one picture shows 3 times the size of Bangkok waiting to come through Bangkok....

And it's clear that this situation was ready to happen and clearly un-adressed by the government. No doubt the Dems were very distracted by the election, but it hadn't gone full crisis on July 4th. But even as lame duck PM caretaker, if Yinglucks team had asked for the Dams and water data,

they would have gotten them, and if it was discussed what it all meant water could have been released much earlier.

Someone did NOT act on this,

and the full report shows it clearly, I can understand it in the Thai version.

But from that 1st Typhoon someone in the incoming or new government MUST have been told about this. Why was this not tabled in the cabinet to be or full cabinet at meeting ONE?

Edited October 29, 2011 by animatic

[scotbeve]

Who says this will be over Nov. 6th?

Afraid it doesn't look like it will be.....

[Steely Dan]

It's three dams,

and as long as the dams are over-filling and run-in is too much to hold back for useful dry season 'hold levels', it will run out.

The problem was holding it in TOO LONG, and NOT releasing moderate amounts earlier. When they finally did, under threat of bursting dams killing 10's of thousands, it was too much for the land to hold. It's been down hill ever since. (pun not intended)

A cabinet minister has been implicated in telling the dam operators NOT to release the water back in July or early August. (likely to save the rice crop pledging scheme kickbacks / paybacks) He may well be in for the hot seat when there is time to deal with him.

From what I heard (though I can't confirm) the rice crop they were safeguarding was actually earmarked for a Middle Eastern buyer - now who could have arranged that, and indeed who has been surprisingly quiet (for a change) throughout this disaster?

[scotbeve]

ScotB thanks for that excellent page, my translation is fair, but the idea is clear.

Even just that one picture shows 3 times the size of Bangkok waiting to come through Bangkok....

And it's clear that this situation was ready to happen and clearly un-adressed by the government. No doubt the Dems were very distracted by the election, but it hadn't gone full crisis on July 4th. But even as lame duck PM caretaker, if Yinglucks team had asked for the Dams and water data,

they would have gotten them, and if it was discussed what it all meant water could have been released much earlier.

Someone did NOT act on this,

and the full report shows it clearly, I can understand it in the Thai version.

But from that 1st Typhoon someone in the incoming or new government MUST have been told about this. Why was this not tabled in the cabinet to be or full cabinet at meeting ONE?

Yes, good points.

A simple view point could be - very bad timing for a government change. A conspiracy point of view could be that the Dems knew their fate, and did not act on anything. A face-saving point of view could be that ALL the organizations in charge of said dams were following their last instructions to the tee for fear of any repercussions from any / all sides (an exercise in CYA !!!).

For all that are kind of fluent in Thai... Interesting link (in Thai)

Edited October 29, 2011 by scotbeve

[animatic]

Who says this will be over Nov. 6th?

Afraid it doesn't look like it will be.....

It's not rocket science, at least not to many.

My thoughts on carving new routes for the water, and making some of them permanent still remain. If it can help now, when we see the actual flood in our face, then that is something that will help in the future and made permanent.

Deciding what to try is an engineering problem, but this is the only time the political will to try might be found. The problem is multiple-screaming voices and 'interests'. It seems ready to go so far as to render many 'special interets' moot, and then makes it a logical time to do things that can never be done in normal times.

Yes the Board of Inquiry will be a real nasty one.

Edited October 29, 2011 by animatic

[serenitynow]

ScotB thanks for that excellent page, my translation is fair, but the idea is clear.

Even just that one picture shows 3 times the size of Bangkok waiting to come through Bangkok....

And it's clear that this situation was ready to happen and clearly un-adressed by the government. No doubt the Dems were very distracted by the election, but it hadn't gone full crisis on July 4th. But even as lame duck PM caretaker, if Yinglucks team had asked for the Dams and water data,

they would have gotten them, and if it was discussed what it all meant water could have been released much earlier.

Someone did NOT act on this,

and the full report shows it clearly, I can understand it in the Thai version.

But from that 1st Typhoon someone in the incoming or new government MUST have been told about this. Why was this not tabled in the cabinet to be or full cabinet at meeting ONE?

It is instructive to go back 30 pages or so on the "Thailand News" forum. There you can see the reports of dam capacities, forecasts for rain and all the other things the administrtion was working on that had nothing to do with water management. It's not as if we have to look all this stuff up in some history book in a library somewhere.

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post has been removed. A post commenting on moderation issues has been removed:

21) Not to discuss moderation publicly in the open forum; this includes individual actions, and specific or general policies and issues. You may send a PM to a moderator to discuss individual actions or email support (at) thaivisa.com to discuss moderation policy.

[animatic]

ScotB thanks for that excellent page, my translation is fair, but the idea is clear.

Even just that one picture shows 3 times the size of Bangkok waiting to come through Bangkok....

And it's clear that this situation was ready to happen and clearly un-adressed by the government. No doubt the Dems were very distracted by the election, but it hadn't gone full crisis on July 4th. But even as lame duck PM caretaker, if Yinglucks team had asked for the Dams and water data,

they would have gotten them, and if it was discussed what it all meant water could have been released much earlier.

Someone did NOT act on this,

and the full report shows it clearly, I can understand it in the Thai version.

But from that 1st Typhoon someone in the incoming or new government MUST have been told about this. Why was this not tabled in the cabinet to be or full cabinet at meeting ONE?

Yes, good points.

A simple view point could be - very bad timing for a government change. A conspiracy point of view could be that the Dems knew their fate, and did not act on anything. A face-saving point of view could be that ALL the organizations in charge of said dams were following their last instructions to the tee for fear of any repercussions from any / all sides (an exercise in CYA !!!).

For all that are kind of fluent in Thai... Interesting link (in Thai)

Point 1 certainly

Point 2 the Dems went through this last year and saw the suffering first hand. I just can't seem them thinking AND acting on this as a revenge strategy. It's just too much and too evil, This reeks of garden variety stupidity, not insane revenge.

Point 3 well we will see this, no doubts. The Nuremberg excuse 'I Just Followed Orders, To The Letter. (Which were? Who gave them and when?)

No doubt they can't say I HAD to say something before people died! That would admit 'they knew people would die from their inactions'. AKA Manslaughter in most countries. A dams operators can be seen as ships captains with as much responsibility if not more in critical times.

Alternative point 4

There have been reports in the Thai press that a 'cabinet minister' has admitted he told the the dam operators not to open the dams. AND that he would 'take responsibility'. The last statement brings the whole into doubt of course. I'll take full responsibility is rarely said here... Of course no-one will name the name, or even the cryptic Initial at this critical time.

Ok, maybe true, maybe not, but I have seen this twice. If so, this cat is sitting facing the the sharp point of the spear for sure, and the WHY. If true, it is going to likely make heads role, even if he falls on his sword. Which may explain so many experienced pols being utterly silent....

I can find it plausible that a Thai politician with no clue , new to the job, wants something, and doesn't hardly understand the implications of his instructions....

I mean 'really who could imagine THAT Scenario here?'

Will there be a witch hunt, and light speed passing the blame turd hand to hand, going on for a year, no doubt.

Edited October 29, 2011 by animatic

[Orac]

ScotB thanks for that excellent page, my translation is fair, but the idea is clear.

Even just that one picture shows 3 times the size of Bangkok waiting to come through Bangkok....

And it's clear that this situation was ready to happen and clearly un-adressed by the government. No doubt the Dems were very distracted by the election, but it hadn't gone full crisis on July 4th. But even as lame duck PM caretaker, if Yinglucks team had asked for the Dams and water data,

they would have gotten them, and if it was discussed what it all meant water could have been released much earlier.

Someone did NOT act on this,

and the full report shows it clearly, I can understand it in the Thai version.

But from that 1st Typhoon someone in the incoming or new government MUST have been told about this. Why was this not tabled in the cabinet to be or full cabinet at meeting ONE?

Yes, good points.

A simple view point could be - very bad timing for a government change. A conspiracy point of view could be that the Dems knew their fate, and did not act on anything. A face-saving point of view could be that ALL the organizations in charge of said dams were following their last instructions to the tee for fear of any repercussions from any / all sides (an exercise in CYA !!!).

For all that are kind of fluent in Thai... Interesting link (in Thai)

Point 1 certainly

Point 2 the Dems went through this last year and saw the suffering first hand. I just can't seem them thinking AND acting on this as a revenge strategy. It's just too much and too evil, This reeks of garden variety stupidity, not insane revenge.

Point 3 well we will see this, no doubts. The Nuremberg excuse 'I Just Followed Orders, To The Letter. (Which were? Who gave them and when?)

No doubt they can't say I HAD to say something before people died! That would admit 'they knew people would die from their inactions'. AKA Manslaughter in most countries. A dams operators can be seen as ships captains with as much responsibility if not more in critical times.

Alternative point 4

There have been reports in the Thai press that a 'cabinet minister' has admitted he told the the dam operators not to open the dams. AND that he would 'take responsibility'. The last statement brings the whole into doubt of course. I'll take full responsibility is rarely said here... Of course no-one will name the name, or even the cryptic Initial at this critical time.

Ok, maybe true, maybe not, but I have seen this twice. If so, this cat is sitting facing the the sharp point of the spear for sure, and the WHY. If true, it is going to likely make heads role, even if he falls on his sword. Which may explain so many experienced pols being utterly silent....

I can find it plausible that a Thai politician with no clue , new to the job, wants something, and doesn't hardly understand the implications of his instructions....

I mean 'really who could imagine THAT Scenario here?'

Will there be a witch hunt, and light speed passing the blame turd hand to hand, going on for a year, no doubt.

It might not be a politician who is new to the job that is being refered to. The Minister for Agriculture is still the same as Theera Wongsamut stayed in place and this ministry has responsibility for the Royal Irrigation Department.

There was an article in The Nation, reported here, a few weeks ago which might give some clues as well:

It is no surprise that Banharn, de facto leader and chief adviser to the Chart Thai Pattana Party, was seen behaving like the actual minister and tackling the flood problems instead of Agriculture Minister Theera Wongsamut. He supposedly held a meeting between the Agriculture Ministry and the Royal Irrigation Department (RID) and was allegedly seen taking control of affected areas in his province

It is easy with hindsight to say that the water should have been released earlier but don't forget that the rainy season started particularly early this year and some areas had been inundated before the new government was even in place. The Meteorlogical Dept has already got their excuse in by saying that they didn't have the modern radar equipment they needed and to predict what was coming.

[rubl]

It might not be a politician who is new to the job that is being refered to. The Minister for Agriculture is still the same as Theera Wongsamut stayed in place and this ministry has responsibility for the Royal Irrigation Department.

bits before and after removed.

For those interested, Minister Theera Wongsamut:

http://eng.moac.go.th/main.php?filename=teera

Edited October 29, 2011 by rubl