Hole Digging

[travelmann]

I need a water pit dug size 50 metres long 20 metres wide 6 metres deep.

Assuming use of a BIG macro with big bucket and the fact the soil does not have to be trucked away it can be spread around my land anyone got any idea how long it would take to do.

Assume the land is easy to dig not full of rocks etc.

Thx

[onionluke]

What size of bucket has a makro got then ?

[jamescollister]

Hi there, round here they dig the hole for free and sell the soil, but haven't seen a digger that could go that deep. Jim

[slapout]

For what you describe, you may want to consider an excavator instead of a tracked backhoe. They could pick up the soil and as the ends of the trench will be sloped they could just drive out and spread it. They are capable of spreading instead of dumping in a pile. The bigger units I have seen around Thailand have a ripper/bay area about 3 meter wide. These things with a good operator move lots of dirt and a single day may get it, but plan on 2 days for road time, breakfast, snacks, brunch, short of fuel, lunch, nap, snacks, you get the picture I am sure. The sides will be stair stepped about ever 2.5 to 3. foot of depth on the sides, due to tire overlap and the ends will be sloping to drive thru as the pick up a load.

[travelmann]

What size of bucket has a makro got then ?

1 metre wide bucket so any idea how long with a Makro?

[travelmann]

For what you describe, you may want to consider an excavator instead of a tracked backhoe. They could pick up the soil and as the ends of the trench will be sloped they could just drive out and spread it. They are capable of spreading instead of dumping in a pile. The bigger units I have seen around Thailand have a ripper/bay area about 3 meter wide. These things with a good operator move lots of dirt and a single day may get it, but plan on 2 days for road time, breakfast, snacks, brunch, short of fuel, lunch, nap, snacks, you get the picture I am sure. The sides will be stair stepped about ever 2.5 to 3. foot of depth on the sides, due to tire overlap and the ends will be sloping to drive thru as the pick up a load.

Thanks do have a photo of such a machine??? I only know what a Makro is (photo attached)

[slapout]

No Photo handy, they are a wheeled machine (Cat) with the driver on the front hinged axle, the ripper (hydraulic controlled) is built under the machine with a huge hold for the material to go into and the ripper is closed for transport, The good ones, the ripper is same width as outside of tires, thus no stair steps. I have seen them used for ripping up asphalt prior to laying a new road here in Thailand. Road construction companies will have them.

[slapout]

The correct name is probably bowl scraper with ripper.

[seedy]

If you use a scraper, you will need a dozer to push the scrapers when they get stuck during the loading process. This will happen. That is what the large steel block is for on the rear - the dozer puts its blade against this and off they go.

The nice thing about scrapers is they are the only machine you will need - they load and unload themselves, with a skilled operator they will spread to a consistent depth.

Using an excavator - a tracked backhoe - you will need trucks. Start to dig, building a ramp as you go. Reach 6 metre depth, level out and go to 50 meters, Dig the other side, remove ramp as you complete.

[travelmann]

Thnx all BUT how long with just a macro 1 metre bucket??? its the time scale Im struggling with.

[travelmann]

No Photo handy, they are a wheeled machine (Cat) with the driver on the front hinged axle, the ripper (hydraulic controlled) is built under the machine with a huge hold for the material to go into and the ripper is closed for transport, The good ones, the ripper is same width as outside of tires, thus no stair steps. I have seen them used for ripping up asphalt prior to laying a new road here in Thailand. Road construction companies will have them.

http://www.google.com/search?q=bowl+scraper+with+ripper&num=50&hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&prmd=imvnsb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=zO2rTpCaNIjkrAfBy-zWDA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBMQ_AUoAQ&biw=1470&bih=695

any of these?

[T_Dog]

Travelmann.. You can do it with a long reach Makro. Not every company has one so you will have to look around. We had a smaller scale project done and the Makro was able to move the dirt 70 meters away. Would not have believed it if I had not seen it. If you hit water however, you will have to just pile it up next to your pond until it dries. Give it 3 weeks and then move it. Again with the Makro or an endloader.

[seedy]

You will have to find out the cubic capacity of the bucket - 1 metre wide by how high by how deep.

Lets assume that you can load 1 cubic metre per cycle - a cycle being fill, swing, unload, return. 50m X 20m X 1m deep is 1000 cycles. Dig 6m deep is 6000 cycles.

This does not take into consideration moving the machine, etc.

Maybe do one cycle in 10 seconds - 6 per minute. This works out to 360 per hour. 6000 divide by 360 = 16.5 hours. Good luck getting this efficiency.

Bigger is cheaper when moving material - the machine costs more per hour, but you use it for many less hours.

Edited October 29, 2011 by seedy

[T_Dog]

You will have to find out the cubic capacity of the bucket - 1 metre wide by how high by how deep.

Lets assume that you can load 1 cubic metre per cycle - a cycle being fill, swing, unload, return. 50m X 20m X 1m deep is 1000 cycles. Dig 6m deep is 6000 cycles.

This does not take into consideration moving the machine, etc.

Maybe do one cycle in 10 seconds - 6 per minute. This works out to 360 per hour.

Bigger is cheaper when moving material - the machine costs more per hour, but you use it for many less hours.

I wouldn't sweat the size of the bucket too much. The Thai operators are a good bunch from my experience. I've never seen a 1 meter wide bucket on the machines I have seen.

[travelmann]

Im being quoted 12000 a day for the mackro to do this inc operator and to spread the soil round etc?? does that seem extreme, timeframe anything now from 7 days upwards. Total of around 84k

[WatersEdge]

50 x 20 x 6 => 6,000 cubic meters

Loading trucks a Trackhoe / Makro requires 7-10 seconds per cubic meter.

A ten cubic meter truck is loaded in less than two minutes

Each bucket carries a little more than a cubic meter.

The depth of 6 meters is going to require time,

because you will need to bench it 3+3,

and to come out of the hole on occasion to spread what you've put topside

I'd suggest total time of 1 minute per cubic meter.

Count on the job running 100 hours.

This allows for digging, moving the Trackhoe out of the hole to spread and form,

benching, sloping.

I did a similar size fish pond job, 110 x 20 meters, not nearly as deep,

and with a field tractor rather than track hoe.

Required 90 hours at B600 per hour.

The track hoe is designed to move dirt, whereas the tractor really isn't,

so you will get much better production than I.

It's easy to see how you would move three times the material in the same time.

Consider what slope you want for sides before you start.

3 Horizontal : 1 Vertical is good for accessibility after the pond is finished.

Water is no fun if you can't get in and out.

Also have a look at other jobs the proposed operator has done in the past.

I know of a fish pond built on a hillside

which looked great until the water showed how out of level it was.

I could see it was sloped before the rain started,

and it was shocking to observe that the operator could not see it.

They even benched it on the slope...rather humorous to watch from the highway.

[travelmann]

50 x 20 x 6 => 6,000 cubic meters

Loading trucks a Trackhoe / Makro requires 7-10 seconds per cubic meter.

A ten cubic meter truck is loaded in less than two minutes

Each bucket carries a little more than a cubic meter.

The depth of 6 meters is going to require time,

because you will need to bench it 3+3,

and to come out of the hole on occasion to spread what you've put topside

I'd suggest total time of 1 minute per cubic meter.

Count on the job running 100 hours.

This allows for digging, moving the Trackhoe out of the hole to spread and form,

benching, sloping.

I did a similar size fish pond job, 110 x 20 meters, not nearly as deep,

and with a field tractor rather than track hoe.

Required 90 hours at B600 per hour.

The track hoe is designed to move dirt, whereas the tractor really isn't,

so you will get much better production than I.

It's easy to see how you would move three times the material in the same time.

Consider what slope you want for sides before you start.

3 Horizontal : 1 Vertical is good for accessibility after the pond is finished.

Water is no fun if you can't get in and out.

Also have a look at other jobs the proposed operator has done in the past.

I know of a fish pond built on a hillside

which looked great until the water showed how out of level it was.

I could see it was sloped before the rain started,

and it was shocking to observe that the operator could not see it.

They even benched it on the slope...rather humorous to watch from the highway.

Not sure im needing trucks as it has to be spread right next to the pond, however does 12k a day seem excessive for a big makro?

[hedonist44]

50 x 20 x 6 => 6,000 cubic meters

Loading trucks a Trackhoe / Makro requires 7-10 seconds per cubic meter.

A ten cubic meter truck is loaded in less than two minutes

Each bucket carries a little more than a cubic meter.

The depth of 6 meters is going to require time,

because you will need to bench it 3+3,

and to come out of the hole on occasion to spread what you've put topside

I'd suggest total time of 1 minute per cubic meter.

Count on the job running 100 hours.

This allows for digging, moving the Trackhoe out of the hole to spread and form,

benching, sloping.

I did a similar size fish pond job, 110 x 20 meters, not nearly as deep,

and with a field tractor rather than track hoe.

Required 90 hours at B600 per hour.

The track hoe is designed to move dirt, whereas the tractor really isn't,

so you will get much better production than I.

It's easy to see how you would move three times the material in the same time.

Consider what slope you want for sides before you start.

3 Horizontal : 1 Vertical is good for accessibility after the pond is finished.

Water is no fun if you can't get in and out.

Also have a look at other jobs the proposed operator has done in the past.

I know of a fish pond built on a hillside

which looked great until the water showed how out of level it was.

I could see it was sloped before the rain started,

and it was shocking to observe that the operator could not see it.

They even benched it on the slope...rather humorous to watch from the highway.

Not sure im needing trucks as it has to be spread right next to the pond, however does 12k a day seem excessive for a big makro?

12,000 A day is not expensive for a Caterpillar 320b or similar sized Trackhoe with a 1 cube bucket. I doubt this will include fuel and mobilization though.

[travelmann]

50 x 20 x 6 => 6,000 cubic meters

Loading trucks a Trackhoe / Makro requires 7-10 seconds per cubic meter.

A ten cubic meter truck is loaded in less than two minutes

Each bucket carries a little more than a cubic meter.

The depth of 6 meters is going to require time,

because you will need to bench it 3+3,

and to come out of the hole on occasion to spread what you've put topside

I'd suggest total time of 1 minute per cubic meter.

Count on the job running 100 hours.

This allows for digging, moving the Trackhoe out of the hole to spread and form,

benching, sloping.

I did a similar size fish pond job, 110 x 20 meters, not nearly as deep,

and with a field tractor rather than track hoe.

Required 90 hours at B600 per hour.

The track hoe is designed to move dirt, whereas the tractor really isn't,

so you will get much better production than I.

It's easy to see how you would move three times the material in the same time.

Consider what slope you want for sides before you start.

3 Horizontal : 1 Vertical is good for accessibility after the pond is finished.

Water is no fun if you can't get in and out.

Also have a look at other jobs the proposed operator has done in the past.

I know of a fish pond built on a hillside

which looked great until the water showed how out of level it was.

I could see it was sloped before the rain started,

and it was shocking to observe that the operator could not see it.

They even benched it on the slope...rather humorous to watch from the highway.

Not sure im needing trucks as it has to be spread right next to the pond, however does 12k a day seem excessive for a big makro?

12,000 A day is not expensive for a Caterpillar 320b or similar sized Trackhoe with a 1 cube bucket. I doubt this will include fuel and mobilization though.

Thanks sizes mentioned seem to be something like "PC200 AND PC320" whatever that means? all are capable of a 6 metre deep dig apparently

my main concern though is given the size if 7 days seems a reasonable time to do this hole??

Edited October 29, 2011 by travelmann

[seedy]

PC200 and PC320 are model numbers of machines made by Komatsu.

If you go with the 12K per day machine, get as many trucks as possible. The excavator can load a truck much faster then the truck can drive out of the pond and dump.

With just a couple of truck the machine will be sitting idle for much of the time, but the clock ticks on.

Edited October 30, 2011 by seedy

[hedonist44]

50 x 20 x 6 => 6,000 cubic meters

Loading trucks a Trackhoe / Makro requires 7-10 seconds per cubic meter.

A ten cubic meter truck is loaded in less than two minutes

Each bucket carries a little more than a cubic meter.

The depth of 6 meters is going to require time,

because you will need to bench it 3+3,

and to come out of the hole on occasion to spread what you've put topside

I'd suggest total time of 1 minute per cubic meter.

Count on the job running 100 hours.

This allows for digging, moving the Trackhoe out of the hole to spread and form,

benching, sloping.

I did a similar size fish pond job, 110 x 20 meters, not nearly as deep,

and with a field tractor rather than track hoe.

Required 90 hours at B600 per hour.

The track hoe is designed to move dirt, whereas the tractor really isn't,

so you will get much better production than I.

It's easy to see how you would move three times the material in the same time.

Consider what slope you want for sides before you start.

3 Horizontal : 1 Vertical is good for accessibility after the pond is finished.

Water is no fun if you can't get in and out.

Also have a look at other jobs the proposed operator has done in the past.

I know of a fish pond built on a hillside

which looked great until the water showed how out of level it was.

I could see it was sloped before the rain started,

and it was shocking to observe that the operator could not see it.

They even benched it on the slope...rather humorous to watch from the highway.

Not sure im needing trucks as it has to be spread right next to the pond, however does 12k a day seem excessive for a big makro?

12,000 A day is not expensive for a Caterpillar 320b or similar sized Trackhoe with a 1 cube bucket. I doubt this will include fuel and mobilization though.

Thanks sizes mentioned seem to be something like "PC200 AND PC320" whatever that means? all are capable of a 6 metre deep dig apparently

my main concern though is given the size if 7 days seems a reasonable time to do this hole??

Here's a few pic of a Cat 320b TrackHoe. The PC-200 or 300 is close to same size and if in decent shape, both are capable of excavating your pond in 4-5 days. That's if you have a decent operator and can keep the dirt that the hoe digs pushed away from him so he does not have to stop digging. You do this by using a small D-2 or D-3 dozer that can push the dirt away from the hole as the Trackhoe throws it up on the top. It also compacts the soil as it pushes it around to raise the area around your pond. So it serves two purposes at the same time. If the Hoe has to exit the hole and spread the spoils around, this takes it away from the one task it is there for, digging the hole. You should be able to get a Kamatsu D-2 with operator for about 4,500 per day, but will have to pay fuel (1,000-1,200 per day) and mobilization. The degree of the slope you'll want should not be more than a 3/1. We build lakes on golf courses with a 4/1 as it's relatively easy for anyone who is dense enough to fall into to get back out.

If you decide to use the hoe for both, the digging and spreading, then you can ad a few days to the time as it will have to leave the dig, track up to the spoils pile and move it around to the new desired grade. You will not get any compaction using this method unless you burn more time and money by having the hoe track back and forth over the filled area to help compact the newly raised soil. If the soil taken out of the pond is dry, then water should be sprayed onto it as it's being pushed around to get some compaction. Maybe compaction is not an issue at this time for you and you can afford the time to let it sit for a season or two and settle more or less on it's own.

The two pics below are of the Cat 320b TrackHoe. The last pic is of a Smaller (Makro) type hoe.

Hope this helps...

[travelmann]

12,000 A day is not expensive for a Caterpillar 320b or similar sized Trackhoe with a 1 cube bucket. I doubt this will include fuel and mobilization though.

Thanks sizes mentioned seem to be something like "PC200 AND PC320" whatever that means? all are capable of a 6 metre deep dig apparently

my main concern though is given the size if 7 days seems a reasonable time to do this hole??

Here's a few pic of a Cat 320b TrackHoe. The PC-200 or 300 is close to same size and if in decent shape, both are capable of excavating your pond in 4-5 days. That's if you have a decent operator and can keep the dirt that the hoe digs pushed away from him so he does not have to stop digging. You do this by using a small D-2 or D-3 dozer that can push the dirt away from the hole as the Trackhoe throws it up on the top. It also compacts the soil as it pushes it around to raise the area around your pond. So it serves two purposes at the same time. If the Hoe has to exit the hole and spread the spoils around, this takes it away from the one task it is there for, digging the hole. You should be able to get a Kamatsu D-2 with operator for about 4,500 per day, but will have to pay fuel (1,000-1,200 per day) and mobilization. The degree of the slope you'll want should not be more than a 3/1. We build lakes on golf courses with a 4/1 as it's relatively easy for anyone who is dense enough to fall into to get back out.

If you decide to use the hoe for both, the digging and spreading, then you can ad a few days to the time as it will have to leave the dig, track up to the spoils pile and move it around to the new desired grade. You will not get any compaction using this method unless you burn more time and money by having the hoe track back and forth over the filled area to help compact the newly raised soil. If the soil taken out of the pond is dry, then water should be sprayed onto it as it's being pushed around to get some compaction. Maybe compaction is not an issue at this time for you and you can afford the time to let it sit for a season or two and settle more or less on it's own.

The two pics below are of the Cat 320b TrackHoe. The last pic is of a Smaller (Makro) type hoe.

Hope this helps...

Thanks for your most informative post with photos, I understand now its 12k a day for the mackro and about 5500 for a the dozer to push the soil round as the mackro digs, the man who tolds us more than 7 days is now saying like you 4-5 maximum!!! amazing how they can chnage their minds when given some facts form other sources.

Prices agreed now is 10k a day for pc200 mackro and 5600 for the dozer inlcudes delivery and all fuel total 15600 a day 4-5 days work.

Many thanks to all contributors getting prices firm has been like getting blood from a stone with most operators.

[rotary]

I think he means Backhoe, thats what Thais call an excavator. Some have extra long booms to dig deeper but they can dig deeper by making a step half way down in the pit if required and they work off that step for the deep part.

Hi there, round here they dig the hole for free and sell the soil, but haven't seen a digger that could go that deep. Jim

[T_Dog]

Travelman... Sounds like you have done well with the negotiation. For our 3 day pond project we had several quotes. Some were the 12k or 15k per day version and squishy, one was for double what we ended up paying for a completed project. In the end it was one of the wife's neighbors that came over and gave a flat project price. Always pays to take your time and get some data points just as you are doing.

[travelmann]

Travelman... Sounds like you have done well with the negotiation. For our 3 day pond project we had several quotes. Some were the 12k or 15k per day version and squishy, one was for double what we ended up paying for a completed project. In the end it was one of the wife's neighbors that came over and gave a flat project price. Always pays to take your time and get some data points just as you are doing.

Yeah nothing here is ever simple or straighforwards it always take a long time and many trips back to people where "adjustments" on price get made. We also do it well before we need it to give "them" time to change their mind on price.

[onionluke]

T if you go for a backhoe and truck method you may get a better deal and faster progress if you start after the rice harvest when the labour is available and the ground drier , the dry earth is lighter and the trucks don't get bogged in and so on .

[Gary A]

I have put in two ponds. The first was pretty much a disaster because the old Komatsu machine was in poor condition and too small. I think he used as much hydraulic oil as fuel. He charged 1,200 baht per hour. My wife kept a close eye on him to make sure he at least kept working. I think the operator did the best he could with what he had to work with. I think he felt bad that I wasn't happy. After the pond was finished he took out some big stumps and didn't charge us.

I was smarter the second time. I looked at the excavator (Makro) first. I don't know the model number but it was much newer and a quite large Caterpillar. The operator was an artist. No wasted motion for him and no stopping to add hydraulic oil. He charged 1,900 baht per hour and compared to the first one that was a genuine bargain. Both hourly prices included fuel.

Neither would quote the complete job because digging conditions such as rocks and the depth of the water table were not known.

I would advise looking at the excavator first and then hire the largest newest one you can find. I was absolutely amazed at the power the Caterpillar had versus the older Komatsu.

[Jogden]

'seedy'

If you use a scraper, you will need a dozer to push the scrapers when they get stuck during the loading process. This will happen. That is what the large steel block is for on the rear - the dozer puts its blade against this and off they go.

The nice thing about scrapers is they are the only machine you will need - they load and unload themselves, with a skilled operator they will spread to a consistent depth.

Using an excavator - a tracked backhoe - you will need trucks. Start to dig, building a ramp as you go. Reach 6 metre depth, level out and go to 50 meters, Dig the other side, remove ramp as you complete.

I know this is off the topic to the OP, but Seedy, Scoops brought back some good memories.

I have looked after many types for many years. The best time was a bunch of 637's and some D10N's in WA, all kiwis and maories driving the stuff (chose ay cuzzy bro and the rest of it). Had only one big moaner, the seat is strange, tyres seem funny, etc. All that changed when i upped the front motor 100 RPM. No complaints from him at all as he was loading himself and not waiting for the dozer or hooking up the bail arm with the others. When that job finished the gear was moved to another site and the moaner didn't get the same machine. When i finally got to the site the mechanics didn't know what to do with this guy moaning. I found 'his' machine and did the same as i did before. Good memories and would love to see some running around here. Don't really know if the locals would take to them here. I later worked in West Africa (Mali) and it was hard to keep the locals in the chairs.

Back on the topic, 12,000B isn't to bad for what you want doing, but what about the cost of the tippers per day? The backhoe can't throw the stuff that far!