The 2 Faces Of Thailand

[dean999]

I am a certified EMT and have attended many accident scenes. In this case, with a man trapped under an overturned motorcycle and moaning in pain while asking for help, the correct thing to do was to remove the motorcycle, The small chance that this would cause him to bleed out is far outweighed by the chance that the position, particularly in an older man, could result in an increased risk of more damaging injury or even death.

Only if the man was in no serious distress would the standard of care preclude lifting the motorcycle off if him.

I agree.

In the Navy we get taught some basic first aid. 9 times out of 10 it's not going to be a medic finding the injured. They always drill into us DR ABC (Doctor ABC). It stands for Danger, Response, Airway, Breathing, Circulation.

Danger - After you have checked that its safe for you to help, you make safe the person your helping. So moving the bike is correct.

I learned the 3 B's

Some organizations talk about the "3 Bs" instead. These three, which are also supposed to usually be done sequentially (but can be simultaneous if the situation requires it) are Breathing, Bleeding, and Bones. While also addressing the priorities when dealing with a medical victim, you can see they are a bit different.

Can read short note about both here: http://www.articlesb...ses-555718.html

Military first aid will always be different. Like for instance. In the navy the ship is put before injured people.

More than likely we would only be giving first aid for about 2 minutes max, then the medics would turn up. In civi street that wouldn't happen, unless you had an accident in or around a hospital.

[Kilgore Trout]

I was flying down the road one eve and I saw a bump ahead , kids flying in he air, I stopped up at about 30 meters and went to help the boys afflicted . It was halllo helpand so on , I helped one guy dragg a bike out of a ditctch and i was thnking , <snip> this gota go , so I ran away amd lefy five guys blootered on the road.

and now in English, please?

I was returning home on my bike one evening when I witnesed a road accident involving two motorbikes and about 5 young lads . The bikes had collided and thrown the drivers and passengers up into the air and all over the road . I pulled up a bout 30m away and went over to see if they were ok . One guy was already up on his feet and together we dragged a lad off the road , we then pulled one of the motor bikes oot of a ditch . By this time the rest were getting up on their feet and I was aware of their drunken leary posturings and I was quite scared . So having learned the law of the jungle in a previous existance I ran back to my bike and rode out of the scene .

Did you take your mittens off there Luke?

[bangkockney]

Back in the UK I came across a nasty road accident with a car leaking petrol and a man trapped inside. His legs were almost completely severed. I took the decision to save his life and pull him from the wreckage, cutting away what little was left of his legs. Moments later the car burst into flames.

After he stabilised in hospital he sued me saying he'd of preferred to die. I won the case but the stress was horrendous.

Since then I stay well away from any accident in any country.

Sorry to say that the 1 bad experience has biased my view but an individual acting at an accident leaves themselves wide open to litigation. Perhaps this does not apply to the OP's case but we all know how litigation friendly Thailand is.

[slapout]

And had wintermute read what he said, he would of seen that he never moved the man only lifted the bike and sidecar off him.

He could have had a puncture wound with an imbedded piece of steel then when some stooge lifted it off him it he would have bled out from an artery wound.

You never know. That's why you let the professionals handle it and not jerk some injured man around like a meat puppet.

I can understand your concern wintermute as this is what is taught by professionals in the real world. Having witnessed the handling, treatment, and transport of accident victims several times by the ems/police, I certainly would not depend on professionals arriving at the accident scene. The OP made a decision which from another members perspective may have saved the mans life.

[evanson]

Hey, at least it ain't China! You haven't seen the video of the two year old girl getting run over twice and ignored by 17 passers-by.

I've been in Thailand for roughly the same amount of time as the OP and yet I have quite a contrasting view. Bikers, sidecars, rickshaws - they never wear helmets, protective clothing, never obey road rules, scratch my car on occasion 'filtering' through the traffic - let's just say I've lost sympathy and when I see an accident the first phrase to spring to mind is 'What's good the for goose is good for the gander'

You should get out more. Same happens here, as many long timers will tell you.

As to the OP's post, this is in no way a Thai related incident. Think back to when you were in your home country, lots of gawkers and very little help of any kind other than (rightfully, in my view) calling an ambulance.

Have you never heard of the sociological experiments following the rape and murder of a young girl in broad daylight in full view of scores of onlookers in New York? Very famous case.. It was found that the more people there are in a similar situation, the less likely help is offered. Probably a Western type 'face' thing, but a fact all the same. I've seen many accidents here of course, and if I'd been the only one present, I would certainly have helped. But being the only white face in a crowd's going to bring a hill of pain down on you. Particularly HERE. Feel sorry for the old guy's family. They're most likely more pissed off/sad and cynical than you.

Edited October 31, 2011 by evanson

[bonobo]

Have you never heard of the sociological experiments following the rape and murder of a young girl in broad daylight in full view of scores of onlookers. It was found that the more people there are in a similar situation, the less likely help is offered.

A very weird (to me) but actual phenomenon.

[bunta71]

I also have extensive first aid training. When I took the first few courses as a Junior ski patrol, they were taught through the red cross. after a couple years what you call the three "B's" were changed from

1)Breathing

2) Bleeding

3) and then check for poisoning...

Once the figured out that from a tear or cut in the aorta could bring death in as little as six seconds, It became check the bleeding, breathing and then poisoning. As long as you followed Red Cross teaching guidlines, they would actually defend you in court against lawsuits.

[changnaam]

Interesting to hear peoples views, and some valid points in terms of people not acting due to being scared of doing the wrong thing, or waiting for the emergency services but I still believe that people simply standing and watching while an old man is trapped underneath a motorbike and side car is not something which needs too much deliberation. The guy is moaning in pain and waving his hands like he needs to be helped OR ELSE..... there is only one course of action, and that does not include just standing and watching. Maybe noone was prepared to take responsibilty as the first person to put their hands on the situation would be seen as being liable I don't know??

In terms of the medical reasons, the most important thing in my mind was to reduce what appeared to be the main cause of suffering before the "emergency services" arrived. I too understand about causing more injuries to a victim but as many have said the first thing anyone could do before getting to the guy would be to remove the motorbike. Leaving it on top of him could only make the injuries more serious (in my opinion).

I have found out that he made it to hosptial, trying to find out how he is.

[fletchsmile]

Only 2 faces???

[BuckarooBanzai]

I also have extensive first aid training. When I took the first few courses as a Junior ski patrol, they were taught through the red cross. after a couple years what you call the three "B's" were changed from

1)Breathing

2) Bleeding

3) and then check for poisoning...

Once the figured out that from a tear or cut in the aorta could bring death in as little as six seconds, It became check the bleeding, breathing and then poisoning. As long as you followed Red Cross teaching guidlines, they would actually defend you in court against lawsuits.

Fully agree on 1 and 2. I always consider it Bleeding, Breathing and Bones. If you have a massive bleed out you need to apply pressure immediately. Otherwise no matter what you do it is to late. If no blood then make sure the airway is working. Last is check for bone breakage that could compromise the above two items.

If the person is already gone and blue and a breathing obstruction is apparent then the Heimlich maneuver. Easy to do and a 10 year old can do it.

If already gone without breathing obstruction do CPR. Also something a 10 year old can do.

Number 3 I do not agree with. There is little anyone can do in a case of unknown poisoning unless you have a stomach pump handy or knowledge of the poison and an antidote.

[seekingfriends]

Hey, at least it ain't China! You haven't seen the video of the two year old girl getting run over twice and ignored by 17 passers-by.

I've been in Thailand for roughly the same amount of time as the OP and yet I have quite a contrasting view. Bikers, sidecars, rickshaws - they never wear helmets, protective clothing, never obey road rules, scratch my car on occasion 'filtering' through the traffic - let's just say I've lost sympathy and when I see an accident the first phrase to spring to mind is 'What's good the for goose is good for the gander'

yes but that is the chinese for you . i have no time for those people at all . look the olympic games .they just sat there like dummies in the venues .and clapped when they were told. and the cycling events, people were not allowed to watch it . the streets were cleared of foreigners in case they bumped into chinese and wanted to talk . with no minders around . please dont get me going . james

[hehehoho]

The locals probably realised that if they intervened they could well be made accountable in some way by the Thai police and extorted for everything they own.

[onionluke]

Hey, at least it ain't China! You haven't seen the video of the two year old girl getting run over twice and ignored by 17 passers-by.

I've been in Thailand for roughly the same amount of time as the OP and yet I have quite a contrasting view. Bikers, sidecars, rickshaws - they never wear helmets, protective clothing, never obey road rules, scratch my car on occasion 'filtering' through the traffic - let's just say I've lost sympathy and when I see an accident the first phrase to spring to mind is 'What's good the for goose is good for the gander'

yes but that is the chinese for you . i have no time for those people at all . look the olympic games .they just sat there like dummies in the venues .and clapped when they were told. and the cycling events, people were not allowed to watch it . the streets were cleared of foreigners in case they bumped into chinese and wanted to talk . with no minders around . please dont get me going . james

The woman's road race was a classic eh ? I was watching that in a boozer in Macau and I was greeting ,great stuff .

[bunta71]

I also have extensive first aid training. When I took the first few courses as a Junior ski patrol, they were taught through the red cross. after a couple years what you call the three "B's" were changed from

1)Breathing

2) Bleeding

3) and then check for poisoning...

Once the figured out that from a tear or cut in the aorta could bring death in as little as six seconds, It became check the bleeding, breathing and then poisoning. As long as you followed Red Cross teaching guidlines, they would actually defend you in court against lawsuits.

Fully agree on 1 and 2. I always consider it Bleeding, Breathing and Bones. If you have a massive bleed out you need to apply pressure immediately. Otherwise no matter what you do it is to late. If no blood then make sure the airway is working. Last is check for bone breakage that could compromise the above two items.

If the person is already gone and blue and a breathing obstruction is apparent then the Heimlich maneuver. Easy to do and a 10 year old can do it.

If already gone without breathing obstruction do CPR. Also something a 10 year old can do.

Number 3 I do not agree with. There is little anyone can do in a case of unknown poisoning unless you have a stomach pump handy or knowledge of the poison and an antidote.

I expected your answer and agree completely. I knew the poisoning thing would throw a few people off and I think at the time (mid to late 1960's) the red cross was trying to convey that looking around the mouth for telltale signs of ingestion of something or even looking around the general vicinity for something that was ingested that wasn't normal. Think about coming upon an unconscious child who had no other apparent injuries and was breathing. Persons requiring first aid may or may not have had an accident. I went on to several other first aid courses, military stuff, mountain rescue stuff, etc. Although broken bones are a pain, they are usually not life threatening. Trying to remember the definition of first aid as taught to me when I still had a brain. First aid is the immediate and temporary care given the victim of an illness or accident until the help of a physician can be obtained. There are leaders and there are followers in this world. If I ever need life saving help, please God, send a leader and not some useless individual who fears the world...

[Gers1873]

You're not supposed to move accident victims. You should have only pulled him away from the wreck but not move him anywhere else. He could have died from internal bleeding due to your "help."

Where did the OP mention moving the victim??? Having 'put down a few bikes over the years -- if one was lying on me I'd be happy for some kind soul to lift it off. Pulling him away, unless there was immediate danger, wuold not have been very clever --- thats why the rescue services immobilize injured parties before moving them.

To the OP --- well done M8 at least you cared enough to do something.

[BuckarooBanzai]

I expected your answer and agree completely. I knew the poisoning thing would throw a few people off and I think at the time (mid to late 1960's) the red cross was trying to convey that looking around the mouth for telltale signs of ingestion of something or even looking around the general vicinity for something that was ingested that wasn't normal. Think about coming upon an unconscious child who had no other apparent injuries and was breathing. Persons requiring first aid may or may not have had an accident. I went on to several other first aid courses, military stuff, mountain rescue stuff, etc. Although broken bones are a pain, they are usually not life threatening. Trying to remember the definition of first aid as taught to me when I still had a brain. First aid is the immediate and temporary care given the victim of an illness or accident until the help of a physician can be obtained. There are leaders and there are followers in this world. If I ever need life saving help, please God, send a leader and not some useless individual who fears the world...

Thumbs up!

Edit: I think the poison thing is what they wanted conveyed to emergency personnel over the phone. Every little bit helps. But here in Thailand there really is no emergency personnel. You sink or swim on your own.

Edited November 1, 2011 by BuckarooBanzai

[aneliane]

It's sad but that's just the way things are going in Asia.

Old values being trashed and capitalism and "me first" attitude as mojo.

Same in China with that baby being left wounded in a storehouse and 13 people passed her by and did nothing.

[Swiss1960]

It has left me feeling sick, the sight of people just stood watching when this old guy was trapped under a motor bike and side car after probably hitting the concrete post and was moaning in agony. Am I surprised? To be honest after all I have read over the years, no, but it has left a very sour taste.

Everytime i see bad accidents there are always people helping but lots more watching.

Have arrived many times at crash scenes before the emergency services and seen some very bad scenes but always seems there are good people out there like yourself that will help.

In my opinion, this is not Thailand specific, you see it all over the world, people beaten to death and nobody helps, kids beaten by adults on the street and nobody stops, women harassed on the street and nobody interfering... accidents on streets and people stopping their cars to watch... and if asked why you get one of those answers:

1 ) I did not know what to do...

2 ) I thought somebody else would...

3 ) I was afraid to ....

4 ) none of my business...

Edited November 2, 2011 by Swiss1960

[Berkshire]

It has left me feeling sick, the sight of people just stood watching when this old guy was trapped under a motor bike and side car after probably hitting the concrete post and was moaning in agony. Am I surprised? To be honest after all I have read over the years, no, but it has left a very sour taste.

Everytime i see bad accidents there are always people helping but lots more watching.

Have arrived many times at crash scenes before the emergency services and seen some very bad scenes but always seems there are good people out there like yourself that will help.

In my opinion, this is not Thailand specific, you see it all over the world, people beaten to death and nobody helps, kids beaten by adults on the street and nobody stops, women harassed on the street and nobody interfering... accidents on streets and people stopping their cars to watch... and if asked why you get one of those answers:

1 ) I did not know what to do...

2 ) I thought somebody else would...

3 ) I was afraid to ....

4 ) none of my business...

Agree, 100%. For the record, an injured person is as likely to get help from random strangers in Thailand as they would anywhere else in the west. The degree of help may vary depending on whether it's rural, city, or a multitude of other factors. Why are farangs so quick to turn every negative sighting in Thailand into a "Thai thing?" It seems that TV members never tire of patting themselves on the back for demonstrating yet again, that "farang good, Thai bad." Of course, only a hardened racist would believe that line of bullsh*t, and their opinion doesn't matter anyways.

[paulian]

You're not supposed to move accident victims. You should have only pulled him away from the wreck but not move him anywhere else. He could have died from internal bleeding due to your "help."

Maybe that's why none of the Thai's would help him because of your overwhelming knowledge of accidents and the Medical field ! Believe me, I've been dealing with these type things for longer than you have been reading about them AND, you do not leave a person trapped under a vehicle until the EMT's arrive. That's just a cop out and an excuse to make a useless inaccurate comment. and ... it's just plain dumb ! The Thai's didn't help him because of the lack of supervision or brain power as to what to do. I've seen it here 20 times over, they just stand around waiting for help which sometimes arrives an hour or two later after the guy is long dead.

Edited November 2, 2011 by paulian

[F1fanatic]

It has left me feeling sick, the sight of people just stood watching when this old guy was trapped under a motor bike and side car after probably hitting the concrete post and was moaning in agony. Am I surprised? To be honest after all I have read over the years, no, but it has left a very sour taste.

Everytime i see bad accidents there are always people helping but lots more watching.

Have arrived many times at crash scenes before the emergency services and seen some very bad scenes but always seems there are good people out there like yourself that will help.

In my opinion, this is not Thailand specific, you see it all over the world, people beaten to death and nobody helps, kids beaten by adults on the street and nobody stops, women harassed on the street and nobody interfering... accidents on streets and people stopping their cars to watch... and if asked why you get one of those answers:

1 ) I did not know what to do...

2 ) I thought somebody else would...

3 ) I was afraid to ....

4 ) none of my business...

I agree to a certain extent that it does happen all over the world - BUT, when there is an motor accident in Europe people do not just pass on by, worried that they may be blamed for the accident....

Its truly depressing that, unless its obviously serious and there is nobody else around, most resident Westerners would not get involved.