Yet Another Access Scenario Question? Urgent Timeframe

[haveaniceday]

There is a 1 yarn land locked bit of land that we own 3 sides of next to us, or in us. It is a bite out of our land, bizar as it sounds.

A verbal agreement is for us to buy it, when the land office sorts out, who actually owns it, the inherited owner has declared the chanote lost several times, and got new ones from the lands office and got private loans using the chanotes as a deposit !!!! TIT.

Now he wants to put some fill on it.

Emm, I say , why? We are to buy it when the mess is sorted out arn't we?

I have read here in the past on TV, but I cant find any of the comments, that if some one has access to their land locked land, then they can go to court and get a access way right acrross your land, that is then put on the back of your chanote.

I fear that letting the use of our land once, sets a precedence for the future?

This guy keeps trying to screw the price up more, we say fine, but who the hell can buy it as we wont give access.

What do you think?

Any legal code references?

Cheers

Edited October 30, 2011 by haveaniceday

[simon43]

from the sound of it, I would tell the guy to take a running jump and assume that his promises to sell you the land are total b*ll*x

Simon

[InterestedObserver]

He is getting ready to use the land. Why else spend the money on fill? Deny him access and see what happens. If you (wife) have a Chanote, that is absolute proof that you own the land. The court cannot just chop off a piece for somebody to access their land. Access rights must be included on the title deed otherwise there are none.

Edited October 30, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[InterestedObserver]

The inherited owner is trying to set you up for a servitude. Civil and Commercial Code says:

Section 1387. An immovable property may be subjected to a servitude by virtue of which the owner of such property is bound, for the benefit of another immovable property, to suffer certain act affecting his property or to refrain from exercising certain rights inherent in his ownership.

Section 1401. Servitude may be acquired by prescription, the provisions concerning acquisitive prescription as described in Title III of this book shall apply mutatis mutandis.

Section 1367. A person acquires possessory right by holding a property with the intention of holding it for himself. AKA prescription.

[stgrhe]

I agree with IO, don't give precedence by letting the guy access through your land for his landfill. If I was you I would also start construction of a boundary wall immediately to physically block the fellow.

Don't give a Thai a finger as he soon would be taking the whole arm, stand firm.

[haveaniceday]

The local "headman" is a good guy, he told us to wait till all the Chanotes are sorted which is nearly done he said.

Alot can happen in a short time !

Yes, he is trying to sell it to a 3rd party, and told them he can guarantee that we will have to give access.

They local headman has advised us just now to deny access to everyone, get a fence built this morning and he really liked my suggestion of electrifying it. I think that is going a bit far. He is a very decent guy actually.

He suggested putting a sign up on our land next to this tiny block saying under no circumstances will any access rights be granted. So any other potential suckers know. He is trying to get it sorted so we get it.

Is there any reference handy for that belief that if someone uses your property, they can claim legal access over your land. I would love to shove some facts so I understand it better.

Definition below: Yep, I had to look it up.

Servitude property

N. servitude property.

def: [property owner will have to bear some of the servitude].

sample: [building and the law is that you are responsible Paritrapis].

Edited October 31, 2011 by haveaniceday

[thaiwanderer]

For practical purposes I agree the OP should probably resist access for now.

However advice should be obtained as regardless of that its likely the owner of the landlocked land (once its clarified who!) may well have a claim for right of way under for example CCC1349 / 1350.

[haveaniceday]

From the small block in question, it is much closer, to a little gravel Gov Soi going through another block, than going through ours, if he did go to a judge, wouldn't he claim be against the other one anyway?

Through our land, it would be 160+m and only about 20 the other way. But the other way is swamp that would have to be built up.

Thanks for the reference.

[thaiwanderer]

From the small block in question, it is much closer, to a little gravel Gov Soi going through another block, than going through ours, if he did go to a judge, wouldn't he claim be against the other one anyway?

Through our land, it would be 160+m and only about 20 the other way. But the other way is swamp that would have to be built up.

Thanks for the reference.

The swamp and work required might mean yours is the 'preferred' route according to the law - not by you obviously!

[InterestedObserver]

Has the local land department resurveyed to verify land boundaries. They would have notified you if they had and solicited your comments. The land department does, after all, have authority to reissue (amend) your Chanote if an error was made.

[InterestedObserver]

From the small block in question, it is much closer, to a little gravel Gov Soi going through another block, than going through ours, if he did go to a judge, wouldn't he claim be against the other one anyway?

Through our land, it would be 160+m and only about 20 the other way. But the other way is swamp that would have to be built up.

Thanks for the reference.

Who owns the other land on which the 'Gov Soi' is located?

[Payboy]

Build a fence definitely, but watch your back.

[haveaniceday]

We were required to pay a "tip" to the land dept of 20,000b to come out and avoid a 6 months wait to survey the plots in a timely manor so we knew the boundries. Our Chanote is ok, the issue was, the 1yarn owner, several times declared his chanote lost, when in fact the moron used it for colatrol to get private loans. So he would give someone the chanote to borrow money, then just declare it lost and get a new one.

We were to buy it when that mess was sorted out with the chanotes attained by fraud. His debts is his problem, but it seems now the 3rd party is one of the people he owes money to as well. This land is prob part of the settlement. This 3rd party are total <deleted> and criminally minded. Gezz, it just gets better with drug dealing issues !

This guy is trying to extort us. Time will tell. Very frustrating.

Hopefully we just end up buying it.

Arghhh, The joys of Thailands bizar land laws !!!

The Gov Soi, I believe I refered to is a little gravel lane, we believe it was donated to the gov, many houses that way use it. It is defiantly maintained by the local gov.

[InterestedObserver]

How much land are we talking about? What does "1yarn" equal in Rai, Ngan or Talang Wah?

[Langsuan Man]

We were required to pay a "tip" to the land dept of 20,000b to come out and avoid a 6 months wait to survey the plots in a timely manor so we knew the boundries.

Sattahip Land Office only wanted 10,000 THB in addition to their 5,000 normal fee to re-survey my plot but since I only had to wait 46 days I declined

But, I made it clear that they would have to explain in court why they wouldn't do it immediately when I reported to the Land Office a possible wall building encroachment by my neighbor

[haveaniceday]

10,000b, mate you did well for only a 10,000b bribe to get Gov officials to do their job. I am very jealous.

[haveaniceday]

dam_n, I can not edit post.

Note, the "tip" was not for a survey for the fun of it, one plot of land was land locked, another that touched it that we also bought has a 3m wide access via someone else plot, it was on the back of the some else chanote as well, it has access rights, all checked out. But we wanted to own that access way as well.

So we bought the lane way.

We wanted to own the lane way for access before we did buy the other two plots. We did that, but the land office insisted there was a 6 month wait to resurvey the front block to effectively break it up into two chaonets, we ended up buying, the 4m down it's boundary. All fine. It took a nominated 20,000 baht "cash tip" for the land office to process the land break up quicker than 6 months. Now I know why there were 7 Benz in the car park in the staff parking area for people making prob $1000usd a month. But, this is Amazing Thailand..

EDIT: Mirical Thailand

I might sound a bit bitter about it, but it seems, it is operations normal. So I just shrug and keep walking. But, I am not giving in to being extorted, manipulated and giving up our land for free loading monkeys who I really resent.

[thaiwanderer]

dam_n, I can not edit post.

Note, the "tip" was not for a survey for the fun of it, one plot of land was land locked, another that touched it that we also bought has a 3m wide access via someone else plot, it was on the back of the some else chanote as well, it has access rights, all checked out. But we wanted to own that access way as well.

So we bought the lane way.

We wanted to own the lane way for access before we did buy the other two plots. We did that, but the land office insisted there was a 6 month wait to resurvey the front block to effectively break it up into two chaonets, we ended up buying, the 4m down it's boundary. All fine. It took a nominated 20,000 baht "cash tip" for the land office to process the land break up quicker than 6 months. Now I know why there were 7 Benz in the car park in the staff parking area for people making prob $1000usd a month. But, this is Amazing Thailand..

EDIT: Mirical Thailand

I might sound a bit bitter about it, but it seems, it is operations normal. So I just shrug and keep walking. But, I am not giving in to being extorted, manipulated and giving up our land for free loading monkeys who I really resent.

With respect the relatively small tip does not appear to have been for them to do their job rather it was to do it quicker.

I'm not precluding or excusing the possibility of any other instances of out and out corruption to pay for nice cars etc but pointing fingers about such things should really involve clean hands.

What exactly is your interest in any of the land involved that makes any of this your concern? Amazing Thailand indeed.

[InterestedObserver]

Haveaniceday,

So there was a long established 3m wide access route or servitude on somebodies Chanote, a 'lane way' which you purchased, that you did not mention in your original post. If that 3m wide route could be used to access the 1 yarn [sic] land locked plot , then you have a problem.

[thaiwanderer]

Haveaniceday,

So there was a long established 3m wide access route or servitude on somebodies Chanote, a 'lane way' which you purchased, that you did not mention in your original post. If that 3m wide route could be used to access the 1 yarn [sic] land locked plot , then you have a problem.

As per my earlier post here I think he has a problem anyway, but with this new information the problem appears bigger.

[haveaniceday]

There were two other chanotes, unrelated to that landlocked 1yarn between the lane way and that 1 yarn. That 1 yarn has never had access. The closest bit of that lane way is ever to the 1 yarn was about 130m, in a straight line. On the two Chanotes that we own, it has never had rights of access, nor thought the land that one of our chanotes had access through.

The 1 yar is less than 20m from what we believe to be a legal gov Soi, but that owner has also denied access.

Much of our land, and particularly near this 1yarn was swamp, we have spent millions of baht of over 3500 truck loads of rock and dirt fill and attain full legal access. Now this jerk says great, I will use that for my house.

Lots of fun and games, I will keep you posted so more people can learn. At least the local "headman" is supporting us. He took great offence when the jerk told him he had never got more than one replacement chanote and several have been found now.

Headman also want us to buy it, so that the proceeds can be dived up between the people who have been ripped off, he is trying to at least do the right thing by everyone concerned.

[thaiwanderer]

There were two other chanotes, unrelated to that landlocked 1yarn between the lane way and that 1 yarn. That 1 yarn has never had access. The closest bit of that lane way is ever to the 1 yarn was about 130m, in a straight line. On the two Chanotes that we own, it has never had rights of access, nor thought the land that one of our chanotes had access through.

The 1 yar is less than 20m from what we believe to be a legal gov Soi, but that owner has also denied access.

Much of our land, and particularly near this 1yarn was swamp, we have spent millions of baht of over 3500 truck loads of rock and dirt fill and attain full legal access. Now this jerk says great, I will use that for my house.

Lots of fun and games, I will keep you posted so more people can learn. At least the local "headman" is supporting us. He took great offence when the jerk told him he had never got more than one replacement chanote and several have been found now.

Headman also want us to buy it, so that the proceeds can be dived up between the people who have been ripped off, he is trying to at least do the right thing by everyone concerned.

having trouble visualising it - how does he currently access?

[thainet]

There were two other chanotes, unrelated to that landlocked 1yarn between the lane way and that 1 yarn. That 1 yarn has never had access. The closest bit of that lane way is ever to the 1 yarn was about 130m, in a straight line. On the two Chanotes that we own, it has never had rights of access, nor thought the land that one of our chanotes had access through.

The 1 yar is less than 20m from what we believe to be a legal gov Soi, but that owner has also denied access.

Much of our land, and particularly near this 1yarn was swamp, we have spent millions of baht of over 3500 truck loads of rock and dirt fill and attain full legal access. Now this jerk says great, I will use that for my house.

Lots of fun and games, I will keep you posted so more people can learn. At least the local "headman" is supporting us. He took great offence when the jerk told him he had never got more than one replacement chanote and several have been found now.

Headman also want us to buy it, so that the proceeds can be dived up between the people who have been ripped off, he is trying to at least do the right thing by everyone concerned.

having trouble visualising it - how does he currently access?

If a piece of land is landlocked then it must be given 'right of way'--this is the way it works. It will be up to the land office to decide whether it's thru your land or the swampy dirt road, but access he will have. Village headmen, lawyers and walls are not going to help with this. But you can decide what part of your land is given up for his access ie: it doesn't have to be in a straight line.

Also please enlighten everyone---what is 1 yarn (perhaps ngarn?).

[InterestedObserver]

If a piece of land is landlocked then it must be given 'right of way'--this is the way it works. It will be up to the land office to decide whether it's thru your land or the swampy dirt road, but access he will have. Village headmen, lawyers and walls are not going to help with this. But you can decide what part of your land is given up for his access ie: it doesn't have to be in a straight line.

Also please enlighten everyone---what is 1 yarn (perhaps ngarn?).

It is my understanding that this 1 yarn [sic] land locked plot already has a Chanote, although supposedly lost, that does not include access. The time to demand access has long passed. I assume that all the surrounding land has been officially surveyed, partitioned and Chanotes issued.The land locked owner needs to negotiate a servitude with somebody.

Edited November 2, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[PattayaParent]

Tell him he doesn't need access if he's going to sell the land to you and if he's not then he can buy the bit of your land that he needs for access.

[thaiwanderer]

If a piece of land is landlocked then it must be given 'right of way'--this is the way it works. It will be up to the land office to decide whether it's thru your land or the swampy dirt road, but access he will have. Village headmen, lawyers and walls are not going to help with this. But you can decide what part of your land is given up for his access ie: it doesn't have to be in a straight line.

Also please enlighten everyone---what is 1 yarn (perhaps ngarn?).

It is my understanding that this 1 yarn [sic] land locked plot already has a Chanote, although supposedly lost, that does not include access. The time to demand access has long passed. I assume that all the surrounding land has been officially surveyed, partitioned and Chanotes issued.The land locked owner needs to negotiate a servitude with somebody.

The time never passes if its landlocked.

[InterestedObserver]

If a piece of land is landlocked then it must be given 'right of way'--this is the way it works. It will be up to the land office to decide whether it's thru your land or the swampy dirt road, but access he will have. Village headmen, lawyers and walls are not going to help with this. But you can decide what part of your land is given up for his access ie: it doesn't have to be in a straight line.

Also please enlighten everyone---what is 1 yarn (perhaps ngarn?).

It is my understanding that this 1 yarn [sic] land locked plot already has a Chanote, although supposedly lost, that does not include access. The time to demand access has long passed. I assume that all the surrounding land has been officially surveyed, partitioned and Chanotes issued.The land locked owner needs to negotiate a servitude with somebody.

The time never passes if its landlocked.

After Chanotes how been issued the land is no longer "partially transferred", per Section 1350 .

[thaiwanderer]

If a piece of land is landlocked then it must be given 'right of way'--this is the way it works. It will be up to the land office to decide whether it's thru your land or the swampy dirt road, but access he will have. Village headmen, lawyers and walls are not going to help with this. But you can decide what part of your land is given up for his access ie: it doesn't have to be in a straight line.

Also please enlighten everyone---what is 1 yarn (perhaps ngarn?).

It is my understanding that this 1 yarn [sic] land locked plot already has a Chanote, although supposedly lost, that does not include access. The time to demand access has long passed. I assume that all the surrounding land has been officially surveyed, partitioned and Chanotes issued.The land locked owner needs to negotiate a servitude with somebody.

The time never passes if its landlocked.

After Chanotes how been issued the land is no longer "partially transferred", per Section 1350 .

I disagree. It always remains partitioned or partially transferred - only a further partition / partial transfer would alter that.

[haveaniceday]

Talking purely about access here, Some people say it is Thai Law that land locked land can get access. I really don't know true or false.

But can anyone confirm for that to happen, and we reject any request, that that person has to go to court t to get a order before the land office amends any chanote for access.

Also, this access is not for cars correct?

[haveaniceday]

Can they get access behind your back, like a letter, without you even knowing about it?