Are They Grateful?

[greatflood]

I never see any buddist monk pay gratitude to anyone who help them.

Why?

But they teach buddist to show gratitude to others.

Are they any kind of God or angel?

[camerata]

People who help monks are earning merit that contributes to a fortunate rebirth. It is they who feel grateful for the opportunity to make merit, and the monks (at least in Thailand) are not supposed to show gratitude for making this possible.

[greatflood]

People who help monks are earning merit that contributes to a fortunate rebirth. It is they who feel grateful for the opportunity to make merit, and the monks (at least in Thailand) are not supposed to show gratitude for making this possible.

Whoever or whatever you give a helping hand to is also a way to fortunate rebirth. So they should be grateful to the one who help them to survive in this world.

There are many dozen methods of making merit.

I often give food to desperated dogs, and the dogs should be grateful to me, otherwise they die of starvation.

Edited November 3, 2011 by greatflood

[norrona]

grattitude is the disease of dogs!!!

and I am sure this word or what it means is not priority on the majority of Thai people

[IMA_FARANG]

People who help monks are earning merit that contributes to a fortunate rebirth. It is they who feel grateful for the opportunity to make merit, and the monks (at least in Thailand) are not supposed to show gratitude for making this possible.

Whoever or whatever you give a helping hand to is also a way to fortunate rebirth. So they should be grateful to the one who help them to survive in this world.

There are many dozen methods of making merit.

I often give food to desperate dogs, and the dogs should be grateful to me, otherwise they die of starvation.

---------------------

Camerata just gave you the correct answer.

In Thailand a monks percieves the food he is given as earning merit for the giver.

The Thai tradition is that monks do not thank the giver for that food.

That's the way they are taught to recieve their alms.

The topic has been discussed on this Buddhist forum before.

There are some actual monks (one I know for sure who has talked about his ordination).

Not to be unkind...but you should realise this is quite a stressful time here in Thailand with the recent flooding.

Mnay Wats are close to the rivers and Klongs/canals and they are flooded right now.

Where I live in Bangkok the nearest Wat is now under about 3 feet of water.

I see every day monks in their robes out stacking sandbags.

Perhaps one will answer you, but they are quite busy now...many evacuees are being sheltered in the Wats also.

[RickThai]

When you give something to someone or something, and you have the right state of mind, you actually benefit more from the giving then the recipient of your charity.

So to put it another way, why should anyone feel grateful for receiving something that is of greater benefit to the person doing the giving, than to you the receiver?

It all makes perfect sense, when looked at with right thought.

Respect to all,

RickThai

[Mirth]

To give is from the heart, to expect something in return is simply, in my opinion hypocritical and would not consitute giving but more like "exchanging" cos a form of return is expected.

[fabianfred]

When lay people make offerings to the monkhood they do not actually give to only that particular monk but to the Sangha as a whole. Some Thai people can be offended if the monk says thank you because the donor knows the true meaning of the offering.

Making any type of merit depends upon many factors...the intentions of the giver as well as the approriateness of the receiver.

Giving out of duty or because one wishes to get a good name is lesser..... giving to make merit, to create a store of merit in the merit bank is better..... but giving simply out of the desire to do good and to help remove the defilements of greed and stingyness is far better.

If the reciever is a monk or novice who is trying to keep their precepts well, then more merit is gained than if they are lazy and do not make an effort to be correct in their vows.

If they are truly trying to practice to gain the freedom of nibbana then they are much more worthy so greater merit is gained.

If they are already one of the four noble states then the benefit to the giver is immense.

If you give, hoping to get something in return, whether it is thanks, or a good name, or the admiration of others then you are doing it for the wrong reasons...better to just be happy with the warm glow of satisfaction from making someone or something happy and being of help to them.

[greatflood]

People who help monks are earning merit that contributes to a fortunate rebirth. It is they who feel grateful for the opportunity to make merit, and the monks (at least in Thailand) are not supposed to show gratitude for making this possible.

#### Is there any evidence to proof that the giver will get a fortunate rebirth? About 99% of the monk who has live in the Wat since childhood is an orphan. Is that a fortunate rebirth?

Giving money to the beggar is also a merit that contributes to a fortunate rebirth, should the giver salutes to the beggar for such the opportunity to make merit?

The Thai tradition is that monks do not thank the giver for that food.

That's the way they are taught to recieve their alms.

#### Thai tradition is the younger gives salution to the older or the receiver salutes to the giver.

So why Chinese and Japanese monk always bow their head when receiving something from the giver? Does Buddha teach differently in each country?

When you give something to someone or something, and you have the right state of mind, you actually benefit more from the giving then the recipient of your charity.

So to put it another way, why should anyone feel grateful for receiving something that is of greater benefit to the person doing the giving, than to you the receiver?

#### If this is true why Thai monk always teaches buddist to be grateful to others? And why showing gratitude to any giver is some kind of ridiculous for Thai monk?

And for western buddist you should not say "thank you" to anyone who help you or vice versa.

I see every day monks in their robes out stacking sandbags.

Perhaps one will answer you, but they are quite busy now...many evacuees are being sheltered in the Wats also.

#### Did the monk work hard to get money to build Wat or somebody worked hard and donated money for building Wat?

You seemed to be appreciate the hard work of monks nearby. But do you know that there're some thousands of Wat in Thailand and about 500,000 monks inhabit. More than 60% of Wats doesn't get flood. Can you find any monk whose Wat does not get flood but come out to help people or monk whose Wat is flood? Or because that the karma of others that they should not pay any attention?

When lay people make offerings to the monkhood they do not actually give to only that particular monk but to the Sangha as a whole. Some Thai people can be offended if the monk says thank you because the donor knows the true meaning of the offering.

#### So if there're many Thais who prefer monks to show their gratitude to the givers, will that be possible?

Because some Thai people can be offended if they have to salute to the receiver.

Making any type of merit depends upon many factors...the intentions of the giver as well as the approriateness of the receiver.

Giving out of duty or because one wishes to get a good name is lesser..... giving to make merit, to create a store of merit in the merit bank is better..... but giving simply out of the desire to do good and to help remove the defilements of greed and stingyness is far better.

If the reciever is a monk or novice who is trying to keep their precepts well, then more merit is gained than if they are lazy and do not make an effort to be correct in their vows.

#### There are both good monks and bad monks in any Wat. No people know about their background and their real behavior in the Wat, and the monk never individually guarantee that he is good. So making merit to them is some kind of chance. Obviously no monk can keep following the 217 precepts. It's just a propaganda.

If they are truly trying to practice to gain the freedom of nibbana then they are much more worthy so greater merit is gained.

If they are already one of the four noble states then the benefit to the giver is immense.

#### Nibbana is a big joke. Even it does exist what benefit people will get after monk can get Nibbana or one of the four noble states? Can Nibbana make people get a better life or something else?

If you give, hoping to get something in return, whether it is thanks, or a good name, or the admiration of others then you are doing it for the wrong reasons...better to just be happy with the warm glow of satisfaction from making someone or something happy and being of help to them.

#### So Whenever monk gives anything to anybody why do they always expect people to show any gratitude?

[camerata]

People who help monks are earning merit that contributes to a fortunate rebirth. It is they who feel grateful for the opportunity to make merit, and the monks (at least in Thailand) are not supposed to show gratitude for making this possible.

#### Is there any evidence to proof that the giver will get a fortunate rebirth? About 99% of the monk who has live in the Wat since childhood is an orphan. Is that a fortunate rebirth?

Giving money to the beggar is also a merit that contributes to a fortunate rebirth, should the giver salutes to the beggar for such the opportunity to make merit?

There is no way to prove that generosity leads to a better rebirth, but that is the popular belief in Thailand and other Buddhist countries. However, generosity has immediate and provable benefits to one's state of mind in the current life. To some Buddhists, this is more important.

Why do you ask if being an orphan and a monk is considered a fortunate rebirth? We can't possibly know what past kamma led to their current situation or how they feel about it. One thing is for certain, few if any monks leave the Sangha in order to become beggars, so it can't be such a bad life.

You seem to be needlessly annoyed at the Thai tradition that monks don't display gratitude. It's just a tradition - get over it. Mahayana monks don't necessarily follow the same tradition. According to the Pali Canon there is a special benefit in giving to the Sangha (because it supports the spread of the Dhamma), hence the special consideration given to monks.

[krading]

A monk won't even wai the king.

[Mirth]

Perhaps some can clarify with me if it's true that donations to the monk belongs to the monk and donations to the temple belongs to the temple.

[camerata]

A monk won't even wai the king.

To put it another way: Even the king wais a monk. That's because a monk occupies a ritually superior position in Thailand.

[NotYetArahan]

The practise of pindabat is beneficial in a number of ways. One of the benefits is that monks will feel grateful for the offerings given by the lay supporters. This will help them keep the right effort to continue practising.

During my ordination I felt this strongly and I know from other monks that they felt the same.

Indeed the habit is to not to thank the giver for the reasons stated in other post above. However, the feeling of gratitude by the monks is still important and supporting their practise.

I understand I can only talk for a few monks. However, how would you feel when people offer you something? I think it is a very human emotion to feel gratitude. I think the vast majority of monks are grateful for the offerings.

Good to know that by offering food to a monk you not only support his body but also stimulate his practise.

[sabaijai]

The practise of pindabat is beneficial in a number of ways. One of the benefits is that monks will feel grateful for the offerings given by the lay supporters. This will help them keep the right effort to continue practising.

During my ordination I felt this strongly and I know from other monks that they felt the same.

Indeed the habit is to not to thank the giver for the reasons stated in other post above. However, the feeling of gratitude by the monks is still important and supporting their practise.

I understand I can only talk for a few monks. However, how would you feel when people offer you something? I think it is a very human emotion to feel gratitude. I think the vast majority of monks are grateful for the offerings.

Good to know that by offering food to a monk you not only support his body but also stimulate his practise.

Good point.

[F4UCorsair]

I'm more than happy to donate, and I understand that monks don't show gratitude. If you've ever seen them receiving alms, it's immediately obvious.

What concerns me a little more is having the bite put on me by monks, and whilst it's only happened a couple of times, I found it somewhat uncomfortable. If there is just a suggestion of a donation, I can take it, but I had one in Huay ZXai, Laos, ask me for $50 so he could buy an English/Thai dictionary. I said I didn't have $50 with me (it was early evening in HX and I was leaving early on the slow boat the next day), but would send him a dictionary, which I did, from Luang Prabang on arrival there. I enquired about dictionaries in a monk supply place in LP, and was shown the dictionary that 'all monks use', and it was only about $5.00 from a bookshop nearby. I don't think that particular monk had the best or most honorable of intentions.

[fabianfred]

A monk won't even wai the king.

To put it another way: Even the king wais a monk. That's because a monk occupies a ritually superior position in Thailand.

not ritual...there is a heirachy of precepts....5 ...8 ...10...227 which is why novices wai monks but not the reverse. Monks wai senior monks.

[greatflood]

A monk won't even wai the king.

To put it another way: Even the king wais a monk. That's because a monk occupies a ritually superior position in Thailand.

So both of you don't know what happened to monks with king two hundred years ago. Especially King Rama4 can punish a monk.

[andrew55]

A monk won't even wai the king.

To put it another way: Even the king wais a monk. That's because a monk occupies a ritually superior position in Thailand.

So both of you don't know what happened to monks with king two hundred years ago. Especially King Rama4 can punish a monk.

I'm sure that the learned repliers above are aware of your point on history, as irrelevant and pedantic as it may be seen.

May I suggest you walk a few more miles, see a few more sights and listen to those with understanding beyond yours and probably mine?

Enjoy your journey of enlightenment grasshopper (credit to David Carradine's writers. I'm still trying to snatch the bl*%dy pebble!)

Listen to the previous posts and you will understand a little more. I promise this learning is available online if that is your only avenue, but I suspect teaching is 5%. Learning 95%.

God bless and a humble Thai wai to you and yours.

,

[rockyysdt]

There is no way to prove that generosity leads to a better rebirth, but that is the popular belief in Thailand and other Buddhist countries. However, generosity has immediate and provable benefits to one's state of mind in the current life. To some Buddhists, this is more important.

Why do you ask if being an orphan and a monk is considered a fortunate rebirth? We can't possibly know what past kamma led to their current situation or how they feel about it. One thing is for certain, few if any monks leave the Sangha in order to become beggars, so it can't be such a bad life.

Mahayana monks don't necessarily follow the same tradition. According to the Pali Canon there is a special benefit in giving to the Sangha (because it supports the spread of the Dhamma), hence the special consideration given to monks.

Totally agree.

Non display of gratitude is definitely a tradition.

Non the less, those who give for something in return are attached to greed aversion and/or delusion.

Those who give to a Monk over someone who is suffering, due to belief that their gift will lead to greater merit are attached to delusion/ greed/aversion.

It's so sad that, in the 21st century, Buddhists carry on traditions, rites and rituals, without any idea why they perform these and without question, even after the Buddha implicitly taught to "find out for yourself what is truth, what is real".

In the 5th century, Buddhagosa, with his limited ability to interpret, cobbled together what effectively has become a religion, in which, using anapanasiti, awakening had become the domain of the Monk.

The Buddha's Brahmavihara teaches: "there is no better way to live in this world than on the Path of Metta".

Metta practice, beginning with compassion and gentleness to oneself, then to a loved one, then to one who is not so loved, leads to the distinction between the self and another becoming eroded.

This not only diminishes ones ego (greed, aversion & delusion) but grows compassion.

Levels of metta described by the Buddha include:

"To cry out at the crying out of another".

"To see another's pain, as if we are experiencing the pain".

"Rather than self before other, Other before self", which leads to balance, the middle way.

The Buddha pondered whether he would teach what he had learned, knowing full well the difficulty of this task.

On being asked to help others to become free from suffering, he turned outwards from his own self obsessions to see the breadth and depth of dhuka in others and at this point became a fully awakened one.

Metta practice is a path of awakening and is opened to all.

This is why I believe that to offer in order to alleviate pain in others is to be engaged in Metta practice, but to offer purely for reward, or to gain greater merit is to be engaged in delusion/greed.

We are all travelers engaged on a path, whether we are conscious of it or not.

Metta phrases can be repeated no more than 4 or 5 times during an hour of sitting concentration.

These may include "May I be in peace, may l be safe and protected, may l live with kindness and ease".

Use them as a way of listening and wait for what arises.

Listen with your heart.

The sitting will slow you down so you can feel what arises rather than conceptualize ideas.

Direct Metta towards yourself for perhaps three months, then towards a loved one for another three months, then towards one you find difficulty to warm to.

Rotate your practice.

Always be gentle with yourself despite what arises in the mind.

Edited December 15, 2011 by rockyysdt

[andrew55]

There is no way to prove that generosity leads to a better rebirth, but that is the popular belief in Thailand and other Buddhist countries. However, generosity has immediate and provable benefits to one's state of mind in the current life. To some Buddhists, this is more important.

Why do you ask if being an orphan and a monk is considered a fortunate rebirth? We can't possibly know what past kamma led to their current situation or how they feel about it. One thing is for certain, few if any monks leave the Sangha in order to become beggars, so it can't be such a bad life.

Mahayana monks don't necessarily follow the same tradition. According to the Pali Canon there is a special benefit in giving to the Sangha (because it supports the spread of the Dhamma), hence the special consideration given to monks.

Totally agree.

Non display of gratitude is definitely a tradition.

Non the less, those who give for something in return are attached to greed aversion and/or delusion.

Those who give to a Monk over someone who is suffering, due to belief that their gift will lead to greater merit are attached to delusion/ greed/aversion.

It's so sad that, in the 21st century, Buddhists carry on traditions, rites and rituals, without any idea why they perform these and without question, even after the Buddha implicitly taught to "find out for yourself what is truth, what is real".

In the 5th century, Buddhagosa, with his limited ability to interpret, cobbled together what effectively has become a religion, in which, using anapanasiti, awakening had become the domain of the Monk.

The Buddha's Brahmavihara teaches: "there is no better way to live in this world than on the Path of Metta".

Metta practice, beginning with compassion and gentleness to oneself, then to a loved one, then to one who is not so loved, leads to the distinction between the self and another becoming eroded.

This not only diminishes ones ego (greed, aversion & delusion) but grows compassion.

Levels of metta described by the Buddha include:

"To cry out at the crying out of another".

"To see another's pain, as if we are experiencing the pain".

"Rather than self before other, Other before self", which leads to balance, the middle way.

The Buddha pondered whether he would teach what he had learned, knowing full well the difficulty of this task.

On being asked to help others to become free from suffering, he turned outwards from his own self obsessions to see the breadth and depth of dhuka in others and at this point became a fully awakened one.

Metta practice is a path of awakening and is opened to all.

This is why I believe that to offer in order to alleviate pain in others is to be engaged in Metta practice, but to offer purely for reward, or to gain greater merit is to be engaged in delusion/greed.

We are all travelers engaged on a path, whether we are conscious of it or not.

Metta phrases can be repeated no more than 4 or 5 times during an hour of sitting concentration.

These may include "May I be in peace, may l be safe and protected, may l live with kindness and ease".

Use them as a way of listening and wait for what arises.

Listen with your heart.

The sitting will slow you down so you can feel what arises rather than conceptualize ideas.

Direct Metta towards yourself for perhaps three months, then towards a loved one for another three months, then towards one you find difficulty to warm to.

Rotate your practice.

Always be gentle with yourself despite what arises in the mind.

Enjoyed both of your enlightening (wrong word on a Buddhist forum?) posts.

Thank you.

[bankei]

A monk won't even wai the king.

To put it another way: Even the king wais a monk. That's because a monk occupies a ritually superior position in Thailand.

not ritual...there is a heirachy of precepts....5 ...8 ...10...227 which is why novices wai monks but not the reverse. Monks wai senior monks.

Does this mean monks should wai Bhikkhuni who follow 311 precepts(Theravada)?

[fabianfred]

A monk won't even wai the king.

To put it another way: Even the king wais a monk. That's because a monk occupies a ritually superior position in Thailand.

not ritual...there is a heirachy of precepts....5 ...8 ...10...227 which is why novices wai monks but not the reverse. Monks wai senior monks.

Does this mean monks should wai Bhikkhuni who follow 311 precepts(Theravada)?

I suspect that you already know the answer to this, but are trying to be funny.

Firstly....there are very few Bhikkuni in the Theravada tradition.

Secondly...they have to pay respects to a monk, even one just ordained, even if they have been ordained for many years.

The monk always comes first, and is respected in order of seniority according to how many pansaa they have continuously been a monk. An abbot of a temple might be junior in number of Pansaa to one of his monks, who will therefore sit in line before him.

[rockyysdt]

I suspect that you already know the answer to this, but are trying to be funny.

Firstly....there are very few Bhikkuni in the Theravada tradition.

Secondly...they have to pay respects to a monk, even one just ordained, even if they have been ordained for many years.

The monk always comes first, and is respected in order of seniority according to how many pansaa they have continuously been a monk. An abbot of a temple might be junior in number of Pansaa to one of his monks, who will therefore sit in line before him.

Hi Fred.

It sounds very much rite/ritual.

Interestingly I was listening to a talk given by Bikkhu Analayo whose academic work is the study and comparison of early discourses (Pali, Chinese, Sanskrit, & Tibetin).

He has access to the very earliest texts which can claim to be directly from the Buddha.

In one of these texts the Buddhas apprentice, was clearly a female.

Interestingly in a later version of the same text there was an unconvincing attempt to change this apprentice into a male character.

I think it has already been said that the Buddha had to contend with prejudices of the time.

It's a pity monastics adhere to ritual/rite over awakening.

For a senior Bikkhuni who is advanced in her practice, to occupy the inferior position to a newly ordained Monk speaks for itself.

Don't you agree?

Edited December 20, 2011 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

Yes....but who is able to know the attainments of another, apart from the Buddha, and perhaps some others of great attainment themselves?

Such attainments are not discussed....a lack of ego having already been established.

I have the greatest respect for several 8 precept nuns I have met who also teach Vipassana in their temple (Wat Rampoeng). I assume they have reached attainments, and therefore tread very carefully around them, not wishing to unknowingly create for myself any heavy karma.

[rockyysdt]

Yes....but who is able to know the attainments of another, apart from the Buddha, and perhaps some others of great attainment themselves?

Such attainments are not discussed....a lack of ego having already been established.

I have the greatest respect for several 8 precept nuns I have met who also teach Vipassana in their temple (Wat Rampoeng). I assume they have reached attainments, and therefore tread very carefully around them, not wishing to unknowingly create for myself any heavy karma.

I speak in the context of a Monk being greatful, and more broadly, lovingly kind (boundlessly friendly).

If one doesn't show gratitude of any kind, whether it be a nod, or display of friendliness how can one live with Metta?

Rather than have an order of seniority (in which by your description, an Bikkhuni, no matter how advanced, is at the bottom of the pile), shouldn't all be humble and ego less as the Buddha taught.

Do you really only tread very carefully for fear of creating heavy kharma?

It gives an image of treating people differently depending on their power.

Shouldn't every human, no matter who or what level, command the utmost respect?

Doesn't everyone have the potential to achieve awakening?

I remember a story of the Dalai Lama who visited Oxford University in recent times to speak about peace and Dharma.

Ahead of his visit, ornate chair befitting of a dignitary had been set up and centrally positioned for the Dalai Lama to speak from.

Upon entering the hall and surveying the area, the Dalai Lama headed for the back where he rummaged around and pulled out a long bench seat.

He then sat down between two of the University faculty holding hands as he interacted on a one to one level with them.

Totally effacing and boundlessly friendly.

No hierarchy, no ego.

You find yourself in a Monastic situation where there is much rite, ritual & custom.

You yourself have questioned the value of your colleagues behavior in terms of following Dharma.

Can't you also question customs and ritual which aren't necessarily what the Buddha taught?

Edited December 22, 2011 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

I try my best to be friendly to all. I have caught the Thai bug of smiling all the time and know how it can affect people.

I tread carefully, out of respect too, but also try to make others aware of the possibilities and opportunities, and possible dangers, when around those who may be ariyachon.

I treat women and men equally, but perhaps prefer women, because they have more suffering than men, and therefore are often more in attendance at temples and retreats because of it.