Where Is Our Uniquely Caring Thai Society?

[koosdeboer]

To be honest i think there's only one man who really cares,

He's a great man in many ways.

Although a lot of people disagree.

Kicked out for numerous reasons.

Sure to be back tho.

I'd say probably late next year,

No maybe sooner.

And your real name is Mr T?

[BlueTerrace]

And this notion that inner Bangkok is populated by the rich only is getting old.

You've obviously never been to Klong Toei, beautiful place, swimming pools, models waltzing around in bikinis, mercs and BMW in each and every drive way, impeccably manicured gardens. A very rich and salubrious district. Too rich? Perhaps sir might like to consider Klong Tan or Din Daeng, slightly less up-scale but still an enviable address for those with money to spend.

You are spot on- It's a myth created by people who live outside of Bangkok to justify their actions and prejudices. Similar to the old Dick Whittington story and the streets of London being paved with gold.

Is Thailand a caring society - I think the fairest assessment would be to say Thailand is as caring as any other 21st Century country. Unfortunately bad news makes good headlines as we often overlook the good in our society and focus on the bad.

Spot on. Flooding Bangkok won't magically restore the waterlogged home, but it may very well wreck the jobs, tax base and infrastructure that all city dweller need to rebuild.

[Kananga]

Thaksin's contribution

[nurofiend]

To be honest i think there's only one man who really cares,

He's a great man in many ways.

Although a lot of people disagree.

Kicked out for numerous reasons.

Sure to be back tho.

I'd say probably late next year,

No maybe sooner.

And your real name is Mr T?

lol it is indeed.... but i ain't gettin on no plane

i hope you noticed it was an acrostic and the sentences are not what i genuinely think, especially the first two.. just made to fit

Edited November 4, 2011 by nurofiend

[Publicus]

First off, let me say that I'm not trying to bash Thai people here. I think this is a valid observation about this so-called uniquely caring Thai society.

As farangs males we learn that there is one time that it is always okay to lie. Whenever we're asked to comment on a woman's looks, fashion, or personality society has rammed it into our heads that we must say something nice. Does my butt look big in these jeans? Of course not, baby. You look wonderful. Do you like this top? It's beautiful and you'll look beautiful in it.

And in Thailand, Thai women, more than any other type of women I've ever met, fish for those compliments. They're constantly looking for validation via baiting you to send them compliments. In fact, unlike farang women, Thai women help you answer the question. Don't I look cute? Yes, of course. Isn't this dress beautiful? Yes, darling.

But in Thailand, the other thing you're expected to lie about is your love of Thailand, Thai culture, Thai food, and anything else Thai. I can't even count the number of times I've been asked whether I love Thailand or Thai culture. It's one of the first questions you get asked after being introduced. In fact, even traveling outside of Thailand if you meet Thai people and tell them you've been to Thailand they ask you whether or not you love their country.

How does this relate? Because both forms of white-lies create a sort of false reality. Fat women think they look good in too tight jeans. Women think that having oversized irises that are shockingly blue make them look cute instead of like a character out of a Twighlight movie.

And so too, the Thai people have a completely unrealistic view of Thai culture. And most have no clue, nor do they care, how their culture stacks up against other cultures. They're so used to hearing about how great, how generous, how caring, how compassionate Thai culture is that few people actually bother to validate whether or not what they're hearing is correct.

That doesn't mean Thai people are bad or worse than anybody else. It just means that there's a tendency to believe things about their culture that aren't true.

The only people really surprised at the flood efforts turning into total chaos with infighting and political bickering are . . . the Thais. It hasn't surprised any of the farangs I've spoken with who know how things work in Thailand. It doesn't surprise any of the economists or regional experts who cover Thailand.

This article, just like many other OpEd pieces in every other Thailand-based newspaper, written by a Thai journalist, has that same sort of fantasy air to it. They believe what they're saying but that doesn't make it accurate. They believe what they're saying because they shut out all of the contradictory evidence.

Thais haven't been what K'Pravit describes for at least 20 or 30 years. I only go back that far because that's as far back as I know people who can give first-hand accounts. But based on the fact that there have been 18 coups since 1932 it doesn't seem that the Thai people have been especially united.

Any country has its conceits and I think both the OP and this post reflect the reality.

The OP wallows in Thai conceits. The post provides a good survey of Thai culture and Thai nationalism. It's true that we farang MUST love Thailand, MUST love Thai food, MUST love Thai language, MUST love, MUST love etc etc. If we don't, the consequence is that we get punished or Thais anyway turn away from farang to sulk in a corner with broken hearts and spirits. No middle ground here.

[ginjag]

How about others who make billions on the "poor" or state how much they love the Thai people?

"Oh come on surely you cannot defend the fugitive this time for hells sake, we know there are others don't we, but the poster was simply pointing out that this guy is the main person who is all the time promoting the slogans about his poor Thai people, He has made the point so clear before and after the election. all the promises, looking at this in general and between the fence, you haven't a leg to stand on -on this posters point. Please don't come back with what he has done ----he got paid for doing his job it was his duty as P.M.---also he got paid to swindle his own country, or am I wrong, Caring Thailand--good example EH !!!!! "

Maybe you can point out exactly, where I am defending him. I would really like to see that.

Elaborating further on my question might bring harm to myself, so I can not do that, but I am sure as hell not defending Thaksin!

So please...shut it!

your quote re-there are OTHERS who make millions---we Know that, but you seem to be avoiding the posters comment on the fugitive, by throwing emphasis on OTHERS. I read it that way as you were not clear about your answer thats all. do you see why I answered as I did ??? anyway your control freak remark-SHUT IT was not called for. And what authority gave you the power to tell other posters to shut it.

If you feel I didn't have a point, or were not happy about it-we are here to discuss not threaten.

[radiochaser]

There's no such thing as Red Cross in Asia or 'Medicines Sans Frontier' or 'Greenpeace' or Oxfam stemming from Thailand or Asia. Indeed, I'll challenge anyone to name one such do-good organization which originates in Asia without farang backing.

Greenpeace should not be in this list. Greenpeace is a self-righteous organisation purely in existence for the benefit of their own egos, full of people with "father issues". It does little of any benefit apart from distort the truth. They are totally numerically illiterate. The true aim of Greenpeace is to "make them wrong", not to help society. They will attack ANY progress and defend any nonsensical alternative no matter how absurd or impractical. Whist they sometimes get it right (out of pure statistical chance), they cloud the vast majority of issues with absurd negativity with little or no basis - the truth behind it being they just want to make "someone" wrong even when there is no basis for it. Nuclear power is a classic example - the best & cleanest power we have, but given bad press by these a**holes.

Another one who should please put the crackpipe down. Greenpeace has been (if nothing else) helped to create awareness for many things, concerning the environment. Their actions may be populistic, but that's exactly what you need in a world of media-overkill, if you want to get attention.

And now, go and get a shark-fin - soup!

Actually, I think a lot of what he says about Greenpeace is correct. I worked with Greenpeace in the bay area of San Francisco, California in the mid 1980's. I found most of the people I worked with to be egotists, back stabbing, lying individuals filled with hate for anyone that did not agree with them! At first I thought it was only the ones that were in the San Francisco group, but visiting Greenpeacer's also exhibited the same characteristics. I quit working for them 5 months after I started.

Sure, if you look at any group you can find individuals who are good people that truly believe what they are doing is helping, but those people were the exceptions!

As for your comment about the crack pipe. Why would you imply that he is a crack addict? Is it because he does not agree with your idea of what Greenpeace is?

[radiochaser]

Getting behind the wheel of a car seems to reveal much about character

The way people drive here is I think quite an accurate reflection of that.

No consideration for others drivers or pedestrians. They are jealous of anyone in front of them

and will cheat in order to steal a small bit of road.

Shame really.

Wait a minute! Who are you writing about??? The people of Thailand or some of the people here in the New York City, New Jersey, Pennsylvania area of the United States. I'm confused!!

[xthAi76s]

... this is the kind of topic that really warrants a long, and well-thought response, but nobody likes to read long posts from commenters, so I'll keep it short and try to hit the major points. And, please, I am not of the bashing Thais and Thai culture for the heck of it. I happen to think that there are astoundingly beautiful things about Thais and Thai culture, and that is much of the reason I live here. However, I am also not a push over or an apologist, and I will call things like I see them. And, no, I won't leave just because I don't like some things. I'll stay, and continue to be successful, and largely happy and complain when I choose to do so like others because --- it's my right to do so

I am very thankful that Thais are writing pieces like this, and I hope they are writing them in Thai and getting them in front of other Thais.

For some reason, Thai culture is marketed to the non-Thai world's populations as having certain positive characteristics and perhaps as having these characteristics more profoundly than many other cultures in the world, and I think after living here for some time, many foreigners tend to think this is perhaps not so. I see so much selfishness and indifference every day that it makes me wonder how they've done such a good job marketing themselves to the world as being the very opposite.

Q: Are Thais uniquely caring for one another more than other nations/cultures?

A: No, I don't think so, and here's the why.

While there are OF COURSE millions of good deeds done everyday in this beautiful country, I second a noticing of all the selfishness that the writer noted. There are all kinds of acts of selfish behavior in Thai society (and Asian society in general with the very notable exception, perhaps, of Japan).

Egalitarianism vs. Survival of the Fittest

My belief is that actually egalitarian societies are far more caring than ones that are the opposite.

Thailand is very far from egalitarian in its governing and in its socioeconomic structure. I can make the case for this argument, but I hope my statement can be largely agreed with without my needing to do so. By the very nature of a society that is more inline with survival of the fittest, people must feel the need to make sure they are OK before trying to think of someone else. And, the truth is that most of the society here is largely poor and life is not easy (despite their 'thousand' smiles -- which I will comment on briefly later).

To illustrate this with an example, think of taxes. I always ask my wife why infrastructure is so beaten all the time. Just today, I even asked about why the beach we're on (and many others) are so filthy. There are of course many reasons, but one reason for these deficiencies is because there is not really a tax base comprised of large numbers of citizens for whom paying 'societal' taxes are compulsory. People will of course pay for their trash to be picked up, but damned if they pay for someone else's; not in this survival of the fittest country.

Oddly enough, the notions of personal liberty/freedom and egalitarianism are uniquely Western European -- perhaps most famously exemplified in the USA, and in nations taking after these Western European values, if you really analyze the society more closely, I think you will conclude that the ability to, for example, give to someone freely (taxes) for which you may not ever benefit directly (but often do indirectly, of course) is one of the markers of a very caring society.

Indifference vs. Accountability

As we watch the news broadcasts, many of us are bombarded with images of Thais sometimes in their hundreds handing each other sandbags. We often hear some kind of unifying music of burden playing in the background, and we see the often smiling faces of Thais who at first glance appear unaffected by the calamity around them.

The marketers want non-Thais AND Thais alike to believe that what we are observing is the uniquely caring, helping, sacrificial society of the Thais. Unfortunately, I have another idea about this.

I am reminded of my time growing up in tough innercity NYC and certain groups of people who had/have much in common with the Thais at large. Words/phrases chosen to describe us are things like: strong, persevering, united during times of crisis, warm, etc. They struggled during the time of slavery by singing uniting songs of burden, laughing, dancing and spent great effort trying to maintain throughout the society and the world that they could handle it. After all, what else could they do at the time? Oh, that's right -- they fought and eventually surely improved their ability to chose their 'fate'.

Now, apply this example to the majority of Thais. They pass each other sand bags, smile on and off camera, donate money and supplies to each other and generally perform all kinds of wonderful, beautiful acts of kindness for their fellow man. But, I think largely live lives of indifference. Where is their fight for any number of things? Where is their demanding of 1) better governing, 2) better equality among their peoples, 3) the destruction of the self-loathing psychology (pseudo caste system they imported from Indian culture) that forces millions of them to believe they are ill able to live happily or move up their station in life as a result of their 'darker' skin, 4) the 'converse' admission of the slow and ongoing co-opting of their culture by the Chinese, etc etc etc.

Where is the fight; the passion for themselves and their fellow man? That is caring. Putting yourself in harms way to effect positive change in your society is caring. Passing sandbags 'necessary' often as a result of your indifference.

... As another example, some surveys suggest that most Thais believe corruption is OK so long as they benefit in some way. Where is the accountability? Surely, they cannot wonder why their leaders so obviously and grossly reflect this mentality, executing it ruthlessly ala their Co-opt'ers the Shinawatras.

Thais are many wonderful things, but being 'uniquely' caring is unfortunately, not a hallmark of Thai society.

... to be continued ...

In a nutshell they are not the same as us. I can live with that

... fascinating read, ThailandMan ... thoughtful ... as you, I have long labored to understand the character of Thai cultural values, in all respects ... while I do get much of it (more the what , than the why), I remain confounded by the pathology of it all and how so many unhealthy Thai behaviors persist ... I have my theories, but none get traction in an age of reason and civility.

.. if you've additional thoughts, please do continue ...

Thanks for the comment. I wanted some time to think about this, discuss with my wife and also with one of her family members who I can talk to openly. I haven't yet had a chance to speak to this family member, and I'd like to before I make much further comment. It's a really difficult topic to discuss seriously and accurately.

One comment I need to back away from a bit is the one re co-opting of the culture by the Chinese. My wife really says this is not likely to hold much water primarily because the two histories are so closely intertwined with Chinese influence likely going back thousands of years.

Anyway, like you, swillobee, I will have more questions than answers about the whys.

[xthAi76s]

Getting behind the wheel of a car seems to reveal much about character

The way people drive here is I think quite an accurate reflection of that.

No consideration for others drivers or pedestrians. They are jealous of anyone in front of them

and will cheat in order to steal a small bit of road.

Shame really.

Wait a minute! Who are you writing about??? The people of Thailand or some of the people here in the New York City, New Jersey, Pennsylvania area of the United States. I'm confused!!

While I'm here reading this topic, figured I would chime in here really quickly.

You are right that there are bad drivers in those places you mention as there are likely to be bad ones in every country on earth. I lived in NYC, however, and it's really not comparable.

I have yet to recall another place I've lived where very close tailgating is the rule rather than the exception. NYC and other big city drivers are probably generally more agressive than drivers of more laid back environments. Country boys in back roads blast around corners at dangerous speeds. Young kids drive poorly all over the country.

But, I think (and my wife agrees) that the aggressive, reckless driving here in Thailand is primarily the result of two things:

1) poor education about driving dangers

2) poverty which often does not decrease much with increasing age

Just a thought, but if you don't really have much to protect in the way of wealth, what other societal drivers are there here in Thailand to make a person more cautious as he/she ages? In the US, for instance, when I first got my license, I drove around like a complete idiot. I was 19 or 20, I think. However, as I've gotten older, I seem to have learned to value my life and the lives of others more, so I am far more cautious in my living. I begin to drive very carefully or at least attempt to do so. My wife thinks that you are missing that here with the vast majority of drivers. They are poor and value life differently than some of us. I mean, who would drive their full family on a motorcycle at 70 - 80 mp/h without helmets? Probably someone who is very poor or who just does not understand the risks...

Edited November 9, 2011 by ThailandMan

[RickBradford]

I lived in Vietnam for over a decade before moving to Thailand a few years back, and the differences between the two peoples are extraordinary.

One explanation is the history; for almost all of past 2,000 years, the Vietnamese have been ruled/occupied/influenced by the Chinese (~1700 years), the French (~280) and the US (~20),

This incessant colonisation means that the Vietnamese inherently understand and appreciate the power and the value of outside cultures, even as they retain a deep love of the uniquely Vietnamese pieces of their culture. Educated Vietnamese regarded the French rather as educated Indians regarded the British -- as bringers of necessary culture to their backward land, and French influence is still visible everywhere.

This has given them an earthy mongrel robustness that I don't see in Thai culture; the Thais seem to be so keen to parade their aloof uniqueness that it has become a brittle weakness,

As another poster noted, it would be very bad manners for a farang to criticise Thailand to a group of Thais; by contrast, the Vietnamese are eager to engage in discussions about what is right and wrong about their country.

The VNs are some of the most irritating, greedy and aggressive people on the planet, and life in Thailand is much more relaxed, but their insistence on a unique Thai-ness and way of doing things is more of a weakness than a strength, I believe.

Interestingly, the Lao/Isaan people seem to be much closer to the Vietnamese in their earthiness, joie de vivre, plus some of the less good qualities I attributed to the VNs.