What Is An Ex-pat?

[Sir Burr]

I think you have to split the term expatriate into two definitions.

The short term ex-pat - A person that has been sent overseas by their company to work, usually for terms of two to five years. These people mostly have a life style that approximates, or, exceeds their living standards in their home country. Wives are sometimes present and their social lives are an approximation of their social life in their own country and is a closed circle.

The long term ex-pat - Somebody who has chosen to leave their own country for various reasons. They are the type who live off savings, open businesses, or, seek employment in their chosen country. Their social lives are more open than the short term ex-pat with a wider friendship base.

Expatriate is just a technical term for someone that does not (at the moment) reside in their country of origin. Nothing more, nothing less. If people read more into the term, then they are mistaken.

Edited November 17, 2005 by Sir Burr

[meadish_sweetball]

What is an Ex-Pat?

A former Irishman.

Hijacking the thread are we?

Not at all - and top o' te morning to ya.

[Boon Mee]

I think you have to split the term expatriate into two definitions.

The short term ex-pat - Usually a person that has been sent overseas by their company to work, usually for terms of two to five years. These people usually have a life style that approximates, or, exceeds their living standards in their home country. Wives are usually present and their social lives are a closed circle.

The long term ex-pat - Somebody who has chosen to leave their own country for various reasons. They are the type who live off savings, open businesses, or, seek employment in their chosen country. Their social lives are more open than the short term ex-pat with a wider friendship base.

Expatriate is just a technical term for someone that does not (at the moment) reside in their country of origin. Nothing more, nothing less. If people read more into the term, then they are mistaken.

Excellent explaination, Sir Burr.

[cobra]

What use to come to mind are the typical Colonel Kens, ex-military mercs, and shady characters sitting around in Casablancan bars wearing white suites, and for whatever reason declined to return home,

[HarryHacker]

What use to come to mind are the typical Colonel Kens, ex-military mercs, and shady characters sitting around in Casablancan bars wearing white suites, and for whatever reason declined to return home,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....there was a half decent doc on ABC last night about Humphrey Bogart!

[Boggers]

To the U.S. government, American ex-pats are one thing - tax dodgers.

The govenment has an issue with people who they think take advantage of the system to make a fortune and then claim residency in another country while renouncing their citienship to avoid paying taxes. They track all American ex-pats in an effort to make sure all due taxes are paid. I think the law now even states that any Americans worth more than $500,000 who renouce their citizenship are bannished from the US.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are very mistaken in your premise that American expatriots are taxdodgers.

I've been overseas most of my working carreer labled an 'Expatriot' and still paid taxes to Uncle Sam. The law states anything over 80K is taxed as if you were residing in the US and, SS tax is still required to be paid.

Americans renouncing their citizenship is a wholly seperate issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not mistaken. Rightly or wrongly, the US government suspects all ex-pats of being tax dodgers. That is a fact that is plainly obvious in US policy and recent legislation. Until recently, US law defined an expat as someone who gave up their citizenship. Now the govenment has made it very difficult for someone to even renounce their citizenship. There is loads of info on the web if you care to have a look.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cite your sources...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you feel compelled, google 1996 U.S. tax law. There is plenty of info about the goverment's concern that expats were out to fiddle the taxman. Congress took steps to make sure Americans living overseas paid their due taxes and even demanded 10 years of taxes from wealthy true expatriates before they left the country.

[Boon Mee]

Boggers~

You stated: "Rightly or wrongly, the US government suspects all ex-pats of being tax dodgers..."

We're waiting on your source(s)

...like a link perhaps?

Edited November 17, 2005 by Boon Mee

[Sir Burr]

I thought American citizens residing abroad, paying tax on income derived outside the USA, was stopped when Ronald Reagan was elected?

[Nordlys]

Good question, TM.

I was born to PR holding parents in Thailand, lived most of my childhood here until age 18, when I left to study in a college in US, lived and worked in Japan till I returned to Thailand to work in family business here at age 33. I vote in elections and go to public hospital here to receive medical care under 30 Baht medical scheme. I bought a condo a few years ago without having to bring the money from overseas because I have a Thai citizen ID card. Yet I renew my non-imm visa, work permit and do the extension every year and report to Suanphlu every 90 days (because I made a mistake of having left and returned to Thailand on foreign passport). On my annual visit to my homeland (assuming Thailand is not) I stay in a rather sleazy "business hotel" because I have no house or any member of my family living there anymore. I have lived 25 years in Thailand yet of three languages I speak I am least fluent in Thai because I never went through Thai schooling nor was I encouraged to study and speak Thai in my childhood.

I probably don't fit the classic definition of expat then what am I?

[Boon Mee]

I thought American citizens residing abroad, paying tax on income derived outside the USA, was stopped when Ronald Reagan was elected?

We'd have to defer to PeaceBlondie for the difinitive answer to your question (former IRS guy) but when Jimmy Carter was President (my guy) and I was living in Thailand, I had to pay tax on income derived out of LOS. When Reagan become President the law was ammended to where I paid on an amount >75k. It's now at 80k.

Best of my knowledge, so long as you hold a US Passport, you are obligated to pay Federal tax 'till you die.

[TokyoT]

I am not mistaken. Rightly or wrongly, the US government suspects all ex-pats of being tax dodgers.  That is a fact that is plainly obvious in US policy and recent legislation. Until recently, US law defined an expat as someone who gave up their citizenship. Now the govenment has made it very difficult for someone to even renounce their citizenship. There is loads of info on the web if you care to have a look.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you two are dancing around two different topics. As most of what you are point out in regard to US tax code is in regard to classified expatriates “US citizens who have renounced their citizenship and long-term residents who have ended their US resident status for federal tax purposes”. This is covered mostly under IRC 877. Whereas Boon Mee is referring to the more generally accepted definition of an ex-pat – one who lives and/or works in a country other than that of their citizenship (but does not renounce citizenship of their home country).

The type of ex-pat that you refer to indeed is viewed as a tax threat by the US government – as the government sees their renunciation of US citizenship as nothing more than a means to not pay US tax. Because ALL US citizens are suppose to pay tax on ALL income no matter where that income is derived (i.e. income from work in Thailand, bank accounts in Switzerland, or stock trading in Japan). No matter where you make the money you are suppose to pay US tax on that income (with various exceptions for tax paid on said income to other government bodies and such). So if one renounces their citizenship and all their income is derived from sources abroad then they would no longer pay US tax. Thus the government created IRC 877 to keep getting taxes paid by those who renounce their citizenship (if they want to continue to live/visit the US).

Whereas the type of ex-pat that Boon Mee is referring to is actually referred to in US tax code as “ US Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad”. These are US Citizens that work/live abroad and do not wish to renounce their citizenship. These ex-pats are not referred to in US tax code as ex-pats. They are “US Citizens abroad”, and they are not covered by the US tax codes/laws you refer to in regard to ex-pats. They are covered under IRS publication 54.

[Neeranam]

We'd have to defer to PeaceBlondie for the difinitive answer to your question (former IRS guy) but when Jimmy Carter was President (my guy) and I was living in Thailand, I had to pay tax on income derived out of LOS. When Reagan become President the law was ammended to where I paid on an amount >75k. It's now at 80k.

Best of my knowledge, so long as you hold a US Passport, you are obligated to pay Federal tax 'till you die.

This may be a silly question, but why do you tell them about your earnings?

[Boon Mee]

We'd have to defer to PeaceBlondie for the difinitive answer to your question (former IRS guy) but when Jimmy Carter was President (my guy) and I was living in Thailand, I had to pay tax on income derived out of LOS. When Reagan become President the law was ammended to where I paid on an amount >75k. It's now at 80k.

Best of my knowledge, so long as you hold a US Passport, you are obligated to pay Federal tax 'till you die.

This may be a silly question, but why do you tell them about your earnings?

Generally, if the income is generated in the states, there's a W-4 form sent in to the IRS listing all income from that source. If you don't cite that in your tax return, it's audit time!

[Neeranam]

This may be a silly question, but why do you tell them about your earnings?

Generally, if the income is generated in the states, there's a W-4 form sent in to the IRS listing all income from that source. If you don't cite that in your tax return, it's audit time! 

What about the money earned/generated in Thailand?

[TokyoT]

This may be a silly question, but why do you tell them about your earnings?

Generally, if the income is generated in the states, there's a W-4 form sent in to the IRS listing all income from that source. If you don't cite that in your tax return, it's audit time! 

What about the money earned/generated in Thailand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most income earned/paid abroad is hard for the IRS to know about/track. But technically all of this income is suppose to be reported (my you) and tax paid accordingly. Basically they are counting on you to tell them about the income. But if they feel your reported income is less than above board you can run the risk of being audited (a small risk from what I have been told) – even then I do not know what legal avenues they might have to examine bank/ income/ investment records from sources outside the US – but their ability to search out these kinds of sources has been increasing.

As Boon Mee has indicated by income is all from US sources and therefore the IRS gets info sent direct to them from my employer, my banks, my credit union, and the various investment houses that I do business with.

The US has reciprocal tax agreements with many countries all over the world and therefore if you can prove you paid tax on that income to one of those countries then that level of tax is not due to the US (this avoids having you pay more tax than the standard US tax).

[Thomas_Merton]

Should we classify our Ex-Pats? e.g.

Class A

Made a fortune abroad now living a life of luxury in Thailand

Class B

American tax-dodgers

Class C

Those living on a pension in Thailand.

Class D

Those stationed in LOS by their companies.

Class E

Those working and married in LOS

Class F

Married but scraping around to make ends meet

Class G

Not married, just working

Class H

Living in LOS on savings – taking a year break.

Class I

Extended tourists

Class J

Tourists

Class H

Wannabees

[jumbo]

In my opnion Sir is correct, but when does one become an immigrant?

Since I am working here without being sent by a home country employer I consider myself an immigrant (tecnically that is)

because I have no intention to return to my country of origin and I 'moved' from there to here....that imo makes me an immigrant and not en expat

guys who are doing the visa un every time do not have a permanent residency in any country and are surely not expatriates or immigrants..

[TokyoT]

In my opnion Sir is correct, but when does one become an immigrant?

Since I am working here without being sent by a home country employer I consider myself an immigrant (tecnically that is)

because I have no intention to return to my country of origin and I 'moved' from there to here....that imo makes me an immigrant and not en expat

guys who are doing the visa un every time do not have a permanent residency in any country and are surely not expatriates or immigrants..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the line between ex-pat and immigrant lies somewhere between establishment of residence and gaining citizenship, but hinges primarily on intent. For example I lived in Japan for several years and had official residence status in Japan, but I was by no means an immigrant as I have every intention of returning to my home country. So simply residency does not mean that you are an immigrant. But I do not think it is necessary to become a citizen to be considered an immigrant either. As it typically takes several years from when you move to a new country before your are even eligible for citizenship.

In either case resident/citizen – I think the separation between ex-pat and immigrant lies in the intent to remain for the long term. If at some point during your stay (or even at from the very beginning) you intent to stay the majority of your time until the end of your days.

[jing jing]

In my opnion Sir is correct, but when does one become an immigrant?

Since I am working here without being sent by a home country employer I consider myself an immigrant (tecnically that is)

because I have no intention to return to my country of origin and I 'moved' from there to here....that imo makes me an immigrant and not en expat

guys who are doing the visa un every time do not have a permanent residency in any country and are surely not expatriates or immigrants..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....In either case resident/citizen – I think the separation between ex-pat and immigrant lies in the intent to remain for the long term. If at some point during your stay (or even at from the very beginning) you intent to stay the majority of your time until the end of your days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So in other words the expat does NOT intend to stay the majority of time until the end of his days, while the immigrant does?

[lamphun]

Should we classify our Ex-Pats? e.g.

Class A

Made a fortune abroad now living a life of luxury in Thailand

Class B

American tax-dodgers

Class C

Those living on a pension in Thailand.

Class D

Those stationed in LOS by their companies.

Class E

Those working and married in LOS

Class F

Married but scraping around to make ends meet

Class G

Not married, just working

Class H

Living in LOS on savings – taking a year break.

Class I

Extended tourists

Class J

Tourists

Class H

Wannabees

Only D to G are really Ex-Pats the rest are tourists.

[TokyoT]

In my opnion Sir is correct, but when does one become an immigrant?

Since I am working here without being sent by a home country employer I consider myself an immigrant (tecnically that is)

because I have no intention to return to my country of origin and I 'moved' from there to here....that imo makes me an immigrant and not en expat

guys who are doing the visa un every time do not have a permanent residency in any country and are surely not expatriates or immigrants..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....In either case resident/citizen – I think the separation between ex-pat and immigrant lies in the intent to remain for the long term. If at some point during your stay (or even at from the very beginning) you intent to stay the majority of your time until the end of your days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So in other words the expat does NOT intend to stay the majority of time until the end of his days, while the immigrant does?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMHO - Yes.

An immigrant intends to take up permanent residence, while an ex-pat does not.

I am sure that some people that start off as ex-pats become and immigrants without really consciously making the decision.

When I first moved over-seas it was to be for three years. I have now lived in Asia for six years, but I do plan to return to the US – just not sure when. Most likely some time in the next three/four years as I have a young daughter and would prefer to send her to school in the US.

[meom]

Should we classify our Ex-Pats? e.g.

Class A

Made a fortune abroad now living a life of luxury in Thailand

Class B

American tax-dodgers

Class C

Those living on a pension in Thailand.

Class D

Those stationed in LOS by their companies.

Class E

Those working and married in LOS

Class F

Married but scraping around to make ends meet

Class G

Not married, just working

Class H

Living in LOS on savings – taking a year break.

Class I

Extended tourists

Class J

Tourists

Class H

Wannabees

You might wanna add the guys that work rotation in the middle-east, africa etc and spend their R&R in LOS.

There's a couple of those around and they'll probably be considered tourists in LOS and ex-pats in their home country

[Thomas_Merton]

In my opnion Sir is correct, but when does one become an immigrant?

Since I am working here without being sent by a home country employer I consider myself an immigrant (tecnically that is)

because I have no intention to return to my country of origin and I 'moved' from there to here....that imo makes me an immigrant and not en expat

guys who are doing the visa un every time do not have a permanent residency in any country and are surely not expatriates or immigrants..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....In either case resident/citizen – I think the separation between ex-pat and immigrant lies in the intent to remain for the long term. If at some point during your stay (or even at from the very beginning) you intent to stay the majority of your time until the end of your days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So in other words the expat does NOT intend to stay the majority of time until the end of his days, while the immigrant does?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMHO - Yes.

An immigrant intends to take up permanent residence, while an ex-pat does not.

I am sure that some people that start off as ex-pats become and immigrants without really consciously making the decision.

When I first moved over-seas it was to be for three years. I have now lived in Asia for six years, but I do plan to return to the US – just not sure when. Most likely some time in the next three/four years as I have a young daughter and would prefer to send her to school in the US.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps we are close to a definition.

The rich or pensioners are the closest to immigrant status in that it is highly likely they will stay until their dying day (or until they prefer doctors who speak their own language).

The rest are ex-pats because regardless of length of stay or intentions, they almost inevitably will be forced to return "home" at sometime.

Do you agree?

[Glauka]

Milan kundera talks in his book "ignorance" about the feelings that some people have when they go to live to another country for long time...and they return to their home country...

Well I have been away from spain quite a long time...and after all this time and because i been living in different places I don´t feel that i belong to a specific place anymore..any place can be called home...however such feeling can make feel lonely and sad sometimes...I missed many daily life problems and happiness from my friends and family...yes i´ve got friends all over the world, but sometimes i miss the ones i cannot be with..

But something inside me do not allow me to get mortgage, a husband and a proper job...at least at this point of my life. Can I call myself a ex-pat? or is just that some people decided to go and live a life that is run by and internal run-away force that cannot be controlled?

My english is quite short in this kind of situations so either i don´t know wether I have express myself clearly or wether a express really what i fell?

Today is the "melancholic day"

Edited November 17, 2005 by Glauka

[RDN]

Only D to G are really Ex-Pats the rest are tourists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're joking, right?

[RDN]

Perhaps we are close to a definition.

The rich or pensioners are the closest to immigrant status in that it is highly likely they will stay until their dying day (or until they prefer doctors who speak their own language).

The rest are ex-pats because regardless of length of stay or intentions, they almost inevitably will be forced to return "home" at sometime.

Do you agree?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rather than "What makes an ex-pat an ex-pat" why not ask the much more relevant question: "What makes a troll a troll?"

[Thomas_Merton]

Perhaps we are close to a definition.

The rich or pensioners are the closest to immigrant status in that it is highly likely they will stay until their dying day (or until they prefer doctors who speak their own language).

The rest are ex-pats because regardless of length of stay or intentions, they almost inevitably will be forced to return "home" at sometime.

Do you agree?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rather than "What makes an ex-pat an ex-pat" why not ask the much more relevant question: "What makes a troll a troll?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...or even, "What makes a mod a cantankerous old SOB after midnight?"

But then we know the answer to that one, don't we?

[richard10365]

To the U.S. government, American ex-pats are one thing - tax dodgers.

The govenment has an issue with people who they think take advantage of the system to make a fortune and then claim residency in another country while renouncing their citienship to avoid paying taxes. They track all American ex-pats in an effort to make sure all due taxes are paid. I think the law now even states that any Americans worth more than $500,000 who renouce their citizenship are bannished from the US.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm a US citizen, and decided to move to Thailand after I retired from the Army at age 38. Before I came here, I had never been to Southeast Asia. My intentions were to never return to the USA.

I'm 40 now and have a Thai wife and a non imm-O visa. I don't work, live off my retirement pension, and pay US Federal taxes every year.

I do consider myself an ex-pat and not a tax dodger.

[think_too_mut]

An expat is someone on expat package (10-15K US$ per month, 150K baht house, car, driver, intntl school for children...).

All others are wannabees.

[phibunmike]

A friend of mine moved here from Dublin. A surge of national pride caused him to change his name from Patrick to Seamus. He is an ex-Pat.