Police Shakedown On Loi Kroh Rd

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

LOL, yes, exactly. Legalizing it means that the whole country would benefit, and not current influential figures..

Seriously though, do you really think legalizing the sex industry would benefit the whole country? Isnt Thailand already struggling to change an image of itself as a sex tourist/sex-pat destination? Maybe if it were concentrated in one area, such as Pattaya, where it could be a sort of like a lower end Las Vegas? Im not trying to be funny, or standing on a soap box saying what i think is right or wrong..im trying to be realistic. Would it honestly serve Thailand well to have a legalised industry? What kind of people in general would you think it would attract? I honestly think the influx of the kind of visitors (drunken, bad mannered, seedy guy - generally speaking!)that that change would attract, would not serve Thailand well on the whole. Thoughts? Im open to discussion. I could be wrong.

They don't want to legalize it because it would allow foreigners business owners like Chinese, Koreans to enter the market. If they keep it illegal then they can look the other way when local/Thai interests want to control and profit from it. Of course the police, officials and lawyers can profit from protecting and allowing an otherwise illegal industry.

Good luck getting that system reformed.

[lannarebirth]

LOL, yes, exactly. Legalizing it means that the whole country would benefit, and not current influential figures..

Seriously though, do you really think legalizing the sex industry would benefit the whole country? Isnt Thailand already struggling to change an image of itself as a sex tourist/sex-pat destination? Maybe if it were concentrated in one area, such as Pattaya, where it could be a sort of like a lower end Las Vegas? Im not trying to be funny, or standing on a soap box saying what i think is right or wrong..im trying to be realistic. Would it honestly serve Thailand well to have a legalised industry? What kind of people in general would you think it would attract? I honestly think the influx of the kind of visitors (drunken, bad mannered, seedy guy - generally speaking!)that that change would attract, would not serve Thailand well on the whole. Thoughts? Im open to discussion. I could be wrong.

Seriously Eek; You shouldn't even regard persons like WTK as being representative of Thais or Expats. I can't remember a single topic here that he ever had his facts right. The most recent ones being about what happened on LK road 2 nights ago and the flood before that. He's a shameless self promoter that tries to walk that fine line line between being an Asia Old Hand , a "local" and a family man. It's pretty clear from his posts heretofore he is none of those things,

Edited November 10, 2011 by sbk
flame removed

[sbk]

Flames and responses to those flames deleted and a derogatory slur against women removed. Now I see what you post about when you aren't slamming someones food, you are slamming each other.

Keep it civil and within forum rules thanks.

[uptheos]

What kind of people in general would you think it would attract?

I understand your points Eek, but don't you think Thailand is already very well known the world over for sex and sleaze.

Legalising it isn't going to make it worse, it could in fact make it better, as a lot of those that want the sleaze factor might prefer one of the other sleazy SEA countries.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

LOL, yes, exactly. Legalizing it means that the whole country would benefit, and not current influential figures..

Seriously though, do you really think legalizing the sex industry would benefit the whole country? Isnt Thailand already struggling to change an image of itself as a sex tourist/sex-pat destination? Maybe if it were concentrated in one area, such as Pattaya, where it could be a sort of like a lower end Las Vegas? Im not trying to be funny, or standing on a soap box saying what i think is right or wrong..im trying to be realistic. Would it honestly serve Thailand well to have a legalised industry? What kind of people in general would you think it would attract? I honestly think the influx of the kind of visitors (drunken, bad mannered, seedy guy - generally speaking!)that that change would attract, would not serve Thailand well on the whole. Thoughts? Im open to discussion. I could be wrong.

Seriously Eek; You shouldn't even regard persons like WTK as being representative of Thais or Expats. I can't remember a single topic here that he ever had his facts right. The most recent ones being about what happened on LK road 2 nights ago and the flood before that. He's a shameless self promoter that tries to walk that fine line line between being an Asia Old Hand , a "local" and a family man. It's pretty clear from his posts heretofore he is none of those things,

I think I better ignore the flame and attempted baiting, and move straight on to Eek's very valid and constructive comment.

First of all let me state that legalization will never happen; the political will isn't there, and indeed politicians and the general establishment is more concerned about appearances and 'face' than about making a difference in people's lives, especially that of sex workers.

So that aside, there are valid cases to be made for legalization, it will allow for better control, better working conditions, wages being paid, social security benefits, and taxes levied. Singapore has shown this works.

The above are the things that some NGOs are trying to promote, such as http://empowerfoundation.org , an excellent organization that respects sex workers for the choices they make, tries to improve their lives by giving them options through education and support, but crucially does NOT try to moralize and coerce them out of the industry, and also does NOT attempt to vilify the customer. A very refreshing message, among most other NGOs that have a particular religious or moral agenda.

So will it be legalized.. of course not. If it were there would be the temporary snigger of confirming Thailand as a sex destination, but if Thailand had the will and the conviction improve the lives also of this small but significant group of it's citizens, then they could use such a bold move and send a clear message of fighting the excesses that still occur in the sex industry.

[Loaded]

Prostitution will never be legalized because as an illegal service the police can extort a lot of money from every player in this industry. The police hold incredible political power, although not as much as the army, and will always keep this vice along with gambling and drugs illegal because of the profits involved. The current deputy prime minister and alleged godfather of Bangkok gambling is a police captain.

[CMX]

I think too that one tends to forget the puritanical aspects of parts of Thai society. There are prudish people everywhere, here as well. The general injunction against public displays of affection is an example. Grown women in slacks or shorts riding pillion side-saddle reminds me of 19th century England on horseback - and earlier. In spite of the accepted view of live-and-let-live that we have of Thais, politicians will look the other way when minorities need help with regard to their rights, if those minorities are not wholly acceptable to the burgeoning bourgeoisie, doubtless the snootiest group of the nation (imagining that HiSo types think that way). Notice all the 'whitening' products on the shelves?

Perhaps we could consider that this not a liberal society when it comes to its laws?

Edited November 10, 2011 by CMX

[jonwilly]

Phew

Good job a certain persons sons are not cumming up Narf fully Loaded.

john

[Ulysses G.]

How strange that I never noticed it in the UK, yet here every other girl I meet is in the trade.

I would have thought getting something for free was more exploitative than paying for it.

There is a good really article in Chiang Mai Citylife this month on this topic.

In his book Paying for It Garth Mundinger-Klow writes that European sailors reported about Siamese prostitution as early as the 16th century. In the late 19th century F.A. Neale's book Residence in Siam explains how fathers traditionally took their unmarried 13 year old ("having reached their expiration date") daughters to their shops to "be sold to the highest bidder", or the even worse fate of being "sold to Arab merchants".

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=3330

[kevbap]

On a day that the 'noise' was a constant 'bang' seems strange to send the 'noise abatement' police out.........'WAT" !

Stopping motorcycles is a norm on busy nights, looking for drugs and firearms! wonder if they checked under there helmets?

:jap:

[WinnieTheKhwai]

LOL, yes, exactly. Legalizing it means that the whole country would benefit, and not current influential figures..

Seriously though, do you really think legalizing the sex industry would benefit the whole country? Isnt Thailand already struggling to change an image of itself as a sex tourist/sex-pat destination? Maybe if it were concentrated in one area, such as Pattaya, where it could be a sort of like a lower end Las Vegas? Im not trying to be funny, or standing on a soap box saying what i think is right or wrong..im trying to be realistic. Would it honestly serve Thailand well to have a legalised industry? What kind of people in general would you think it would attract? I honestly think the influx of the kind of visitors (drunken, bad mannered, seedy guy - generally speaking!)that that change would attract, would not serve Thailand well on the whole. Thoughts? Im open to discussion. I could be wrong.

Seriously Eek; You shouldn't even regard persons like WTK as being representative of Thais or Expats. I can't remember a single topic here that he ever had his facts right. The most recent ones being about what happened on LK road 2 nights ago and the flood before that. He's a shameless self promoter that tries to walk that fine line line between being an Asia Old Hand , a "local" and a family man. It's pretty clear from his posts heretofore he is none of those things,

I think I better ignore the flame and attempted baiting, and move straight on to Eek's very valid and constructive comment.

First of all let me state that legalization will never happen; the political will isn't there, and indeed politicians and the general establishment is more concerned about appearances and 'face' than about making a difference in people's lives, especially that of sex workers.

So that aside, there are valid cases to be made for legalization, it will allow for better control, better working conditions, wages being paid, social security benefits, and taxes levied. Singapore has shown this works.

The above are the things that some NGOs are trying to promote, such as http://empowerfoundation.org , an excellent organization that respects sex workers for the choices they make, tries to improve their lives by giving them options through education and support, but crucially does NOT try to moralize and coerce them out of the industry, and also does NOT attempt to vilify the customer. A very refreshing message, among most other NGOs that have a particular religious or moral agenda.

So will it be legalized.. of course not. If it were there would be the temporary snigger of confirming Thailand as a sex destination, but if Thailand had the will and the conviction improve the lives also of this small but significant group of it's citizens, then they could use such a bold move and send a clear message of fighting the excesses that still occur in the sex industry.

@Eek, here's an interesting addition; there are several other countries that have legalized prositution, including Switzerland. The article states the improvements of added regulation.

http://www.thelocal.ch/1729/20111110/

It also states another interesting bit of information, that Thailand is the world leader where it comes to the percentage of the population that has had paid sex at least once. To let that sink in, out of every 4 Thai men you meet, 3 will have visited prositutes. (And probably a similar number applies to foreign men living in Thailand but I don't have data to back that up.)

Edited November 11, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[nikster]

It also states another interesting bit of information, that Thailand is the world leader where it comes to the percentage of the population that has had paid sex at least once. To let that sink in, out of every 4 Thai men you meet, 3 will have visited prositutes. (And probably a similar number applies to foreign men living in Thailand but I don't have data to back that up.)

Depends on how you define paid sex. When you have sex with a girl, then marry her, and basically give you 50% of your money... is that paid sex? If not... it's certainly pretty expensive! No offense to Mrs Nikster

BTW that 4th guy that hasn't visited prostitutes is either gay or has a mia noi. I mean the prostitution statistic doesn't surprise me but I am really amazed at how many thai guys have a mia noi. It's crazy!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

It also states another interesting bit of information, that Thailand is the world leader where it comes to the percentage of the population that has had paid sex at least once. To let that sink in, out of every 4 Thai men you meet, 3 will have visited prositutes. (And probably a similar number applies to foreign men living in Thailand but I don't have data to back that up.)

BTW that 4th guy that hasn't visited prostitutes is either gay or has a mia noi. I mean the prostitution statistic doesn't surprise me but I am really amazed at how many thai guys have a mia noi. It's crazy!

Gay or not doesn't matter much; gay folks may partake in commercial sex just the same as everyone else. As for Mia Nois I have been under the impression that this type of relationship is decreasing a lot in recent years. Especially the traditional longer term relationship where the mia noi from her side is faithful to her partner and where the mia luang knows about the arrangement and to some degree consents with it. People these days may still call someone a mia noi in name, but that may be closer to a mutually promiscuous relationship, cheating or a fling, or indeed plain prostitution.

Edited November 11, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Diablo Bob]

Seriously though, do you really think legalizing the sex industry would benefit the whole country? Isnt Thailand already struggling to change an image of itself as a sex tourist/sex-pat destination? Maybe if it were concentrated in one area, such as Pattaya, where it could be a sort of like a lower end Las Vegas? Im not trying to be funny, or standing on a soap box saying what i think is right or wrong..im trying to be realistic. Would it honestly serve Thailand well to have a legalised industry? What kind of people in general would you think it would attract? I honestly think the influx of the kind of visitors (drunken, bad mannered, seedy guy - generally speaking!)that that change would attract, would not serve Thailand well on the whole. Thoughts? Im open to discussion. I could be wrong.

Eek, Prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas, Nv. The state constitution prohibits prostitution in Clark (Las Vegas)& Washo (Reno)counties. That aside, the legalized brothels throughout the state are regulated as to working hours, minimum wage and they contribute to unemployment and are inspected (Facilities and prostitues)by local health officials. Some say that it has cleaned up the business by removing organized crime from the equation.

Unfortunately, in Las Vegas and Reno it is still business as usual with the pimps etc......

As to who would it atract? The same people who are coming to Thailand today, no difference.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Diablo Bob

[Ulysses G.]

Depends on how you define paid sex. When you have sex with a girl, then marry her, and basically give you 50% of your money... is that paid sex?

Yes, but the bars are still more of a sure thing as far actually getting any for your money.

[OriginalPoster]

Depends on how you define paid sex. When you have sex with a girl, then marry her, and basically give you 50% of your money... is that paid sex?

Yes, but the bars are still more of a sure thing as far actually getting any for your money.

Sure, direct Quid Pro Quo takes all the uncerrtainty out of it. And any chance of sincerity. Look around youself, living my that standard, are all your closest male firneds also people that benefit financially when you show up? Is it fulfilling? I know that I'm talking out of turn, but if all your romantic interests are bargirls and all you closest friends are restaurant owners, then your life isn't going well.

[ludditeman]

Sure, direct Quid Pro Quo takes all the uncerrtainty out of it. And any chance of sincerity. Look around youself, living my that standard, are all your closest male firneds also people that benefit financially when you show up? Is it fulfilling? I know that I'm talking out of turn, but if all your romantic interests are bargirls and all you closest friends are restaurant owners, then your life isn't going well.

Most straight men don't have female friends, as far as I can see.

Some do pretend they are friends with their female partners.

Most men have little or no expectation of profit from their friends.

[Ulysses G.]

if all your romantic interests are bargirls and all you closest friends are restaurant owners, then your life isn't going well.

I don't have any "romantic interests" and at this point in my life, I do not need or want any.

I don't want to be cynical and I am not against other people getting married, but almost everyone I know that is, is miserable and just stays together for their kids - although a few do have happy marriages. As I have no desire to be in "love", why bother?

As far as real friends go, I have always had plenty and only a few own restaurants or businesses.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Can I just say that as a happily married man, paid sex is so different from 'real' sex within a relationship that it's almost not the same thing. (I'm not suddenly moralizing; it's not necessarily a bad thing, as far as 'things' go in life, but not in the same league. Perhaps not even the same sport. )

Fortunately there is so much more to the bar scene. (Alcohol primarily, I guess And having some personal time with friends, chat & banter with the staff and so on. )

[Loaded]

Phew

Good job a certain persons sons are not cumming up Narf fully Loaded.

john

you mean the 'untouchables':

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,185060,00.html

[bristolgeoff]

if bars close and the side business close,all providing money for the their family.where and what will they do.the old ladies who provide for the families struggle now.maybe it is better to leave well enough alone

[jonwilly]

Yes

"simply because [i'm] your son."

john

[Mickeem]

At midnight tonight heavy police presence on Loi Kroh - was inside a bar with about 5 other foriegn customers and the owner (Thai) had the shutters quickly closed fully as soon as a semi plain clothed Policeman started taking

photos through the half closed shutters of those inside at 12:10

Had to stay locked inside for an hour with lights off until the all clear

Not my idea of a good night out.. This is not the usual annual shakedown

Someone wants the 'Falang' bar beer scene finished..

But as most of the Chiang Mai traditional architecture has been torn down by the same 'ethnic' business owners that are complaining about the nightlife bar scene for the tourists, together with the shut down

or the early closing of the pub/bar scene, the word will get around "Don't bother going to Chiang Mai ".. Overdeveloped traffic choked polluted .. bars close at midnight..

[Beetlejuice]

At midnight tonight heavy police presence on Loi Kroh - was inside a bar with about 5 other foriegn customers and the owner (Thai) had the shutters quickly closed fully as soon as a semi plain clothed Policeman started taking

photos through the half closed shutters of those inside at 12:10

Had to stay locked inside for an hour with lights off until the all clear

Not my idea of a good night out.. This is not the usual annual shakedown

Someone wants the 'Falang' bar beer scene finished..

But as most of the Chiang Mai traditional architecture has been torn down by the same 'ethnic' business owners that are complaining about the nightlife bar scene for the tourists, together with the shut down

or the early closing of the pub/bar scene, the word will get around "Don't bother going to Chiang Mai ".. Overdeveloped traffic choked polluted .. bars close at midnight..

Absolutely agree with you.

And yet so many are blind to these facts.

As I said previous, I cannot see much future for the tourist industry in Chiang Mai and what you have described has happened last night, it appears the writings already on the wall.

Also take my word for it, the message "Don't bother going to Chiang Mai ".. has already got round. I was around the area last night and the amount of farangs I saw, I could count on one hand, this of course apparently being the high season.

It is now just a matter of time before it`s all gone.

[CMX]

Not all nations deliver tourists whose principle method of judging destinations relate to bars or pubs that stay open beyond midnight - or relatively cheap sex. Nor is Thailand entirely dependent upon those offerings for tourism success.

For example, huge planeloads of Chinese tourists might easily replace us falang (tourists) one day. Loads of nature lovers may be organized into even greater mobs of inspectors of parks. A limited perspective is deadly to truth; bars are not the pivot point of life for most of us.

And, come to that, as Thailand grows economically, and as its people join the middle classes in cities and towns, why should the bar scene or sex scene matter? - except for them, citizens. As prices (the main draw) rise, tourism may wane as an expected consequence, except perhaps at beaches.

Meanwhile, perhaps in time sexpats and needy drinkers from the West will move to more southern regions known for their preferences. I cannot see this as a tragedy. Even the issue of Thai jobs, as is the case everywhere, simply calls for moving on to other jobs and businesses to suit new and perhaps different customers.

[eveningson]

there is a lot of relativity involved i suspect. In my city here in mexico (Morelia) which I am leaving for chiang mai when my visa comes through, cops tend to shoot people randomly and raids are terrible things. we fortunately have the army in town who sort of watches the cops and the federales watch the army so there is a tense balance. We hear of incidents through word of mouth because no newspaper or tv will mention what is happening lest they be killed. I have yet to be directly touched by events here but it chills everyone and there is no longer life here anymore because one never knows who one is speaking to.

I was robbed twice in my life and both times it was in switzerland, once in geneva which seems to be a lot less safe than the streets here since there are no more small gangs of juveniles, or unsanctioned criminal activity and the other time in fribourg. so i cannot speak badly of mexico although i am scared a lot of the time even though i am a big guy with training. one has no chance against a kid with a handgun or a grenade.

[bristolgeoff]

are they killing the golden goose,if places close what happens to the tea money they get.bar close nothing for the police.landlords also.i don,t know what is happening but it does sound bad

Edited November 16, 2011 by bristolgeoff

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Someone wants the 'Falang' bar beer scene finished..

Yes. I don't know who with certainty, but I strongly suspect my wife.

[elektrified]

At midnight tonight heavy police presence on Loi Kroh - was inside a bar with about 5 other foriegn customers and the owner (Thai) had the shutters quickly closed fully as soon as a semi plain clothed Policeman started taking

photos through the half closed shutters of those inside at 12:10

Had to stay locked inside for an hour with lights off until the all clear

Not my idea of a good night out.. This is not the usual annual shakedown

Someone wants the 'Falang' bar beer scene finished..

But as most of the Chiang Mai traditional architecture has been torn down by the same 'ethnic' business owners that are complaining about the nightlife bar scene for the tourists, together with the shut down

or the early closing of the pub/bar scene, the word will get around "Don't bother going to Chiang Mai ".. Overdeveloped traffic choked polluted .. bars close at midnight..

Absolutely agree with you.

And yet so many are blind to these facts.

As I said previous, I cannot see much future for the tourist industry in Chiang Mai and what you have described has happened last night, it appears the writings already on the wall.

Also take my word for it, the message "Don't bother going to Chiang Mai ".. has already got round. I was around the area last night and the amount of farangs I saw, I could count on one hand, this of course apparently being the high season.

It is now just a matter of time before it`s all gone.

Well I would say that is a gross exaggeration. I was out last night; Thapae, Loi Khro, Night Bazaar, etc. and there were MANY farang tourists as well as many Thai and other Asian tourists in town. In fact, the Night Bazaar was as busy as it is during any high season.

[Ulysses G.]

I meet tourists all day every day and most like Chiang Mai and many love it. I don't think the sky is going to fall on us just yet,