Anger Erupts In Thailand Over Plans For Amnesty

[nong38]

So this is an ally of the good old US of A circumventing the law because it suits them? Hmmm not exactly what what we do ( we might like to sometimes but we get rumbled!) Those F 15's could do with up dating dont you think? Those old Harriers made them look not so good so how can we square the circle an sell you some more up to date kit General xxxxxxx?

When you have a solution give me a call. ( By the way I am a Man Utd supporter ).

[metisdead]

A post and replies with reference to HM the King have been removed. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family.

[maidu]

The man's name is Thaksin. The spelling 'Taksin' refers to a former King of Thailand. Just add the 'h' - otherwise you'll compel me to spell the country's name 'Tailand.'

(I always liked the name 'Siam' better).

[jackr]

the majority would overwhelmingly want him back. 1 person 1 vote. bring him back.

I'm sure with 300 baht in their sky rocket, your referendum would be a done deal.

Do you think this is a YS flood control measures? If yes, YS has done a good job.

Absolutely, almost choreographed.

[paulchiangmai]

It's so blatant, it's almost comical - though having T return is no joke.

Thailand has a gnarly tradition of PM leaving in disgrace and/or by coups, and then returning again to the PM's seat.

For many decades, it was military tough guys commandeering Thai gov't. Thaksin changes that just a bit. He's a police academy tough guy.

If PT and Ms Yingluck could feel any shame, it would be over this sham amnesty thing. Alas, they only feel elation - that the person who thinks for them is coming back to re-take Thailand's top political seat.

As a regular visiter to Australia I am very used to Australians telling me how they almost single handedly keep the poor countries going. It is a pity the US and Europe and others can't help out just a little bit. It would be very interesting to know just how much Australia does give to Thailand, if anything.

[jackr]

As a regular visiter to Australia I am very used to Australians telling me how they almost single handedly keep the poor countries going.

Yep, Aussies are funny like that. They also think Cpt Cook and Cadbury's are Australian and nobody does fish 'n chips better. Could be a bit of small willy syndrome. They do pay their fair share into the IMF, but are relative tight asses like the US as foreign aid donors per capita.

[JAG]

Just google it: Taksin only PM to finish one term. or here: http://www.bbc.co.uk...acific-13891650

Is this not a full term? Just before Thaksin....

(20)

Chuan Leekpai

(1938-)

(2nd Time) 53 9 November 1997 House of Representatives Resolution 9 February 2001 Term Ends: 6 January General Election 3 years, 92 days 20 November 1997 Democrat Party

Good question. I am no expert but i think a full term is four years and this guy was 3 years and 92 days. Notice that BBC report says Taksin is only ELECTED PM to finish a full term. Bottom line is Taksin lasted longer than most all of them. The point was that it appears to me that the military is the one who ultimately decides who will be "permitted" to serve and who will be removed by a coup at their discretion. So for all the angst over Taksin this and Taksin that and what the Thai voters or citizens may or may not want/like it has been the military and a handful of generals that have been pulling the strings for many many years. Why even bother with elections if the military can decide they don't like someone who was elected by the people? How long til the next coup? Who knows but i would not bet against it if past history is an indicator.

There are, IMO, two things which may prevent the "next coup".

1: The Army is largely US equipped, trained and supplied. Previous coups (prior to the last one) have been let us say tolerated by the USA. If that tap were to be turned off, as would probably happen if Yingluks democratically elected government were to be toppled, then the effectiveness of the Army would be rapidly degraded; (not to mention massive loss of face for the high command). This would really matter if such a coup were to be faced with any real opposition.

2: The Army is largely conscript and these conscripts largely come from the rural and working classes. I doubt the troops could be relied upon to fight an internal security campaign against an opposition quite probably drawn from their own comunities. I imagine that the generals are aware of this.

Edited November 17, 2011 by JAG

[termsak]

It's so blatant, it's almost comical - though having T return is no joke.

Thailand has a gnarly tradition of PM leaving in disgrace and/or by coups, and then returning again to the PM's seat.

For many decades, it was military tough guys commandeering Thai gov't. Thaksin changes that just a bit. He's a police academy tough guy.

If PT and Ms Yingluck could feel any shame, it would be over this sham amnesty thing. Alas, they only feel elation - that the person who thinks for them is coming back to re-take Thailand's top political seat.

Mostly after being deposed 'most Thai leaders' left, and then quietly came back and lived quietly, and maybe 15 years later made public comments. One or two left and never dared return.

Only Thaksin has made a huge move to take over completely rather than lose face. This is why we have had this huge problem for so many years, his ego is so overwrought, or potentially socio-pathic, he has broken the classic standards of Thai political behavior, for an all or nothing strategy his excessive wealth allows him to attempt.

And this explains why they have had such a hard time dealing with him the last 4 years. No one has acted like this in the past; an unknown quantity.

Exactly! Thank you for understanding what's going on. I could not have said it any better...I'm Thai and part of the political landscape here. I can vote, I pay a large sum of tax. I am not yellow shirt but I am very much against Thaksin coming back and taking over the country again. I have dealt with him and his cronies and I got only one word to describe him: Megalomaniac. In the past, it's always been the people vs Government/Military. Thaksin has created a new: People vs People and this is the reason why he is a VERY dangerous individual.

What seriously disturbs me is that some of the "educated" posters in here can't see thru it all....anyone with a bit of education (and logic and common sense) should see this, but they are somewhat blinded by the "fight for the poor/long live democracy" mentality that they don't realize that the person they worship i.e. Thaksin, is doing exactly the opposite of what they fight for. And even if they do see it, they are held hostage by their initial stance on siding with Thaksin so changing their mind in public would be embarrassing aka losing face.

By the blatant arrogant actions of this Government to bring back Thaksin during the floods, I can only see Thailand nose diving to another low with a lot of violent times coming up. Let me describe exactly what's going to happen:

Anti-Thaksin groups are currently being assembled and grows larger day by day. Street protests will start soon. Thaksin will have his red terrorist army countering the protests. Jatuporn and his motor mouth will start spreading propaganda and inciting violence again while Chalerm and Thaksin's brother in law Chief of Police will behind the scenes make sure rule of Red mob can proceed without legal actions. Bombs will be thrown at the anti Thaksin protesters. We will have Thaksin blaming the third and invisible hand again. A red shirt is caught on camera, Jatuporn will claim the broken record of "fake Red". This time the silent majority will be fed up and actually fight back with weapons...airport will be shut down waiting for the arrival....skip forward, either (hopefully) a coup or...civil war.

What Thailand needs is new blood. One that is neither Thaksin or Democrats...One that has some intelligence, integrity and genuinely trying to make Thailand a better place. Of course we will not get rid of corruption for the next couple of decades, but we need change NOW for a better future...but I'll say brace for the worst the next 12 months

[lannarebirth]

It's so blatant, it's almost comical - though having T return is no joke.

Thailand has a gnarly tradition of PM leaving in disgrace and/or by coups, and then returning again to the PM's seat.

For many decades, it was military tough guys commandeering Thai gov't. Thaksin changes that just a bit. He's a police academy tough guy.

If PT and Ms Yingluck could feel any shame, it would be over this sham amnesty thing. Alas, they only feel elation - that the person who thinks for them is coming back to re-take Thailand's top political seat.

Mostly after being deposed 'most Thai leaders' left, and then quietly came back and lived quietly, and maybe 15 years later made public comments. One or two left and never dared return.

Only Thaksin has made a huge move to take over completely rather than lose face. This is why we have had this huge problem for so many years, his ego is so overwrought, or potentially socio-pathic, he has broken the classic standards of Thai political behavior, for an all or nothing strategy his excessive wealth allows him to attempt.

And this explains why they have had such a hard time dealing with him the last 4 years. No one has acted like this in the past; an unknown quantity.

Exactly! Thank you for understanding what's going on. I could not have said it any better...I'm Thai and part of the political landscape here. I can vote, I pay a large sum of tax. I am not yellow shirt but I am very much against Thaksin coming back and taking over the country again. I have dealt with him and his cronies and I got only one word to describe him: Megalomaniac. In the past, it's always been the people vs Government/Military. Thaksin has created a new: People vs People and this is the reason why he is a VERY dangerous individual.

What seriously disturbs me is that some of the "educated" posters in here can't see thru it all....anyone with a bit of education (and logic and common sense) should see this, but they are somewhat blinded by the "fight for the poor/long live democracy" mentality that they don't realize that the person they worship i.e. Thaksin, is doing exactly the opposite of what they fight for. And even if they do see it, they are held hostage by their initial stance on siding with Thaksin so changing their mind in public would be embarrassing aka losing face.

By the blatant arrogant actions of this Government to bring back Thaksin during the floods, I can only see Thailand nose diving to another low with a lot of violent times coming up. Let me describe exactly what's going to happen:

Anti-Thaksin groups are currently being assembled and grows larger day by day. Street protests will start soon. Thaksin will have his red terrorist army countering the protests. Jatuporn and his motor mouth will start spreading propaganda and inciting violence again while Chalerm and Thaksin's brother in law Chief of Police will behind the scenes make sure rule of Red mob can proceed without legal actions. Bombs will be thrown at the anti Thaksin protesters. We will have Thaksin blaming the third and invisible hand again. A red shirt is caught on camera, Jatuporn will claim the broken record of "fake Red". This time the silent majority will be fed up and actually fight back with weapons...airport will be shut down waiting for the arrival....skip forward, either (hopefully) a coup or...civil war.

What Thailand needs is new blood. One that is neither Thaksin or Democrats...One that has some intelligence, integrity and genuinely trying to make Thailand a better place. Of course we will not get rid of corruption for the next couple of decades, but we need change NOW for a better future...but I'll say brace for the worst the next 12 months

termsak,

Yours was an exceedingly insightful and welcome post. I do hope you will post more often.

Regards,

Edited November 19, 2011 by lannarebirth

[sabaijai]

Taksin is the ONLY Thai prime minister to finish ONE full term. The ONLY ONE. Would seem to indicate that the ones who truly run Thailand are the generals who can oust anyone they don't like at pretty much any time.

Since when? How many years are you going back? I know little about Thai politial history

Since 1932, 42 head of government changes. That's an average of one every 22.5 months, and that's not including interim governing councils.

Five PM's, including Thaksin, have come back after interim terms of other PM's or ruling councils. Two (Kuang and Thanom) have resurfaced twice. At least four times, there have been governing councils put in place. I count 10 coup d'etats in the 79 year period since absolute monarchy, but I've heard others report as many as 18 coups during that period. Nearly all political top bananas have been military, and most of them have proved to be corrupt, callous, selfish and heavy-handed. Thailand has had a bumpy road regarding its fledgling democracy. It's still trudging along, with much to be fixed.

note: There were at least 5 men who had earlier chaired the PM's seat for longer than Mr. T. I don't where PC got the idea that 'T was the only Thai PM to finish a full term.' His term was interrupted by the Yellows, and then an interim council took over for 88 days. T came back for a few months, but when the coup happened, he was officially a 'caretaker PM.'

Plaek Pibulsongkram finished a full term following general elections of 1952.

http://www.cabinet.thaigov.go.th/eng/pm_his.htm

http://thailand.prd.go.th/democracy/view_democracy.php?id=4373

[cardholder]

It's so blatant, it's almost comical - though having T return is no joke.

Thailand has a gnarly tradition of PM leaving in disgrace and/or by coups, and then returning again to the PM's seat.

For many decades, it was military tough guys commandeering Thai gov't. Thaksin changes that just a bit. He's a police academy tough guy.

If PT and Ms Yingluck could feel any shame, it would be over this sham amnesty thing. Alas, they only feel elation - that the person who thinks for them is coming back to re-take Thailand's top political seat.

Mostly after being deposed 'most Thai leaders' left, and then quietly came back and lived quietly, and maybe 15 years later made public comments. One or two left and never dared return.

Only Thaksin has made a huge move to take over completely rather than lose face. This is why we have had this huge problem for so many years, his ego is so overwrought, or potentially socio-pathic, he has broken the classic standards of Thai political behavior, for an all or nothing strategy his excessive wealth allows him to attempt.

And this explains why they have had such a hard time dealing with him the last 4 years. No one has acted like this in the past; an unknown quantity.

Exactly! Thank you for understanding what's going on. I could not have said it any better...I'm Thai and part of the political landscape here. I can vote, I pay a large sum of tax. I am not yellow shirt but I am very much against Thaksin coming back and taking over the country again. I have dealt with him and his cronies and I got only one word to describe him: Megalomaniac. In the past, it's always been the people vs Government/Military. Thaksin has created a new: People vs People and this is the reason why he is a VERY dangerous individual.

What seriously disturbs me is that some of the "educated" posters in here can't see thru it all....anyone with a bit of education (and logic and common sense) should see this, but they are somewhat blinded by the "fight for the poor/long live democracy" mentality that they don't realize that the person they worship i.e. Thaksin, is doing exactly the opposite of what they fight for. And even if they do see it, they are held hostage by their initial stance on siding with Thaksin so changing their mind in public would be embarrassing aka losing face.

By the blatant arrogant actions of this Government to bring back Thaksin during the floods, I can only see Thailand nose diving to another low with a lot of violent times coming up. Let me describe exactly what's going to happen:

Anti-Thaksin groups are currently being assembled and grows larger day by day. Street protests will start soon. Thaksin will have his red terrorist army countering the protests. Jatuporn and his motor mouth will start spreading propaganda and inciting violence again while Chalerm and Thaksin's brother in law Chief of Police will behind the scenes make sure rule of Red mob can proceed without legal actions. Bombs will be thrown at the anti Thaksin protesters. We will have Thaksin blaming the third and invisible hand again. A red shirt is caught on camera, Jatuporn will claim the broken record of "fake Red". This time the silent majority will be fed up and actually fight back with weapons...airport will be shut down waiting for the arrival....skip forward, either (hopefully) a coup or...civil war.

What Thailand needs is new blood. One that is neither Thaksin or Democrats...One that has some intelligence, integrity and genuinely trying to make Thailand a better place. Of course we will not get rid of corruption for the next couple of decades, but we need change NOW for a better future...but I'll say brace for the worst the next 12 months

termsak,

Yours was an exceedingly insightful and welcome post. I do hope you will post more often.

Regards,

I agree 100%.

i think termsak's last paragraph sums up the dilemma - Thaksin has created his own vacuum that (perhaps) he alone can fill - certainly in his eyes.

The Democrats failed to make the political progress that they should have made (by any normal western/democratic measures).

There is no doubt that Thaksin had popular appeal and there is no doubt that the rural masses could not resonate with Abhisit.

A larger than life character (even corrupt, ego-manical, laughable) is something that, I imagine. appeals to the masses. Without wishing to be insulting there are many rural Thai s that can relate comfortably with soap opera characters - Thaksin fits that bill and the failure of the opposition parties has been finding someone with popular appeal.

I don't know where that 'new blood' can come from. I am even less certain that the will exists to 'change' from the fundamentals of corruption. Too may people are seen to benefit from cheating/lying/corruption and these role models ensure that corruption remains endemic.

I wish termsak, and open-minded Thais like him, every success in helping their country progress.

[jpinx]

Most of what Thailands intelligencia aspire to is achieveable by "simply" improving education. Start by paying teachers enough to take them out of the catch-22 of needing "tea-money" to survive, especially university professors - who are the ones setting the standars for the teachers in the schools.

The only way to stop corruption is to educate and remunerate -- as has been proven time and again in other emerging nations. Thailand has the money - but does it have the political will to use it wisely?

[cardholder]

Most of what Thailands intelligencia aspire to is achieveable by "simply" improving education. Start by paying teachers enough to take them out of the catch-22 of needing "tea-money" to survive, especially university professors - who are the ones setting the standars for the teachers in the schools.

The only way to stop corruption is to educate and remunerate -- as has been proven time and again in other emerging nations. Thailand has the money - but does it have the political will to use it wisely?

Thailand has had the money for sometime - it has lacked the political will for even longer.

Edited November 20, 2011 by metisdead
30) Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording.

[animatic]

Suddenly no want talk about the flood crisis anymore. Just like it never happens.

Do you think this is a YS flood control measures? If yes, YS has done a good job.

Such a massive distraction it will take from the flood angst discussion.

But not indefinitely, and not so's most people will notice.

[nicky1982]

These same hi-so's that were crying to save Bangkok now find it in their hearts to protest. Well if you had 1 meter of water in your house you probably wouldn't have the energy or notion to be protesting. Think of the millions suffering from the flood before you think about getting things your own way. If you have enough energy to protest, grab a shovel and start cleaning up Thailand. It is about time you do something for others than yourselves. Protesting is a selfish, selfish act in a time when the country needs togetherness

[elcent]

It's so blatant, it's almost comical - though having T return is no joke.

Thailand has a gnarly tradition of PM leaving in disgrace and/or by coups, and then returning again to the PM's seat.

For many decades, it was military tough guys commandeering Thai gov't. Thaksin changes that just a bit. He's a police academy tough guy.

If PT and Ms Yingluck could feel any shame, it would be over this sham amnesty thing. Alas, they only feel elation - that the person who thinks for them is coming back to re-take Thailand's top political seat.

Mostly after being deposed 'most Thai leaders' left, and then quietly came back and lived quietly, and maybe 15 years later made public comments. One or two left and never dared return.

Only Thaksin has made a huge move to take over completely rather than lose face. This is why we have had this huge problem for so many years, his ego is so overwrought, or potentially socio-pathic, he has broken the classic standards of Thai political behavior, for an all or nothing strategy his excessive wealth allows him to attempt.

And this explains why they have had such a hard time dealing with him the last 4 years. No one has acted like this in the past; an unknown quantity.

Exactly! Thank you for understanding what's going on. I could not have said it any better...I'm Thai and part of the political landscape here. I can vote, I pay a large sum of tax. I am not yellow shirt but I am very much against Thaksin coming back and taking over the country again. I have dealt with him and his cronies and I got only one word to describe him: Megalomaniac. In the past, it's always been the people vs Government/Military. Thaksin has created a new: People vs People and this is the reason why he is a VERY dangerous individual.

What seriously disturbs me is that some of the "educated" posters in here can't see thru it all....anyone with a bit of education (and logic and common sense) should see this, but they are somewhat blinded by the "fight for the poor/long live democracy" mentality that they don't realize that the person they worship i.e. Thaksin, is doing exactly the opposite of what they fight for. And even if they do see it, they are held hostage by their initial stance on siding with Thaksin so changing their mind in public would be embarrassing aka losing face.

By the blatant arrogant actions of this Government to bring back Thaksin during the floods, I can only see Thailand nose diving to another low with a lot of violent times coming up. Let me describe exactly what's going to happen:

Anti-Thaksin groups are currently being assembled and grows larger day by day. Street protests will start soon. Thaksin will have his red terrorist army countering the protests. Jatuporn and his motor mouth will start spreading propaganda and inciting violence again while Chalerm and Thaksin's brother in law Chief of Police will behind the scenes make sure rule of Red mob can proceed without legal actions. Bombs will be thrown at the anti Thaksin protesters. We will have Thaksin blaming the third and invisible hand again. A red shirt is caught on camera, Jatuporn will claim the broken record of "fake Red". This time the silent majority will be fed up and actually fight back with weapons...airport will be shut down waiting for the arrival....skip forward, either (hopefully) a coup or...civil war.

What Thailand needs is new blood. One that is neither Thaksin or Democrats...One that has some intelligence, integrity and genuinely trying to make Thailand a better place. Of course we will not get rid of corruption for the next couple of decades, but we need change NOW for a better future...but I'll say brace for the worst the next 12 months

This will be due to students getting involved in masses? Scary thing indeed. Most of them are not very bright either. They're busy playing games and Facebook.

[Buchholz]

Protesting is a selfish, selfish act in a time when the country needs togetherness

Indeed, the country need togetherness in order to effectively deal with the flood.

It's a pitiful shame the government is putting their efforts in other directions.

.

[Mitker]

Exactly! Thank you for understanding what's going on. I could not have said it any better...I'm Thai and part of the political landscape here. I can vote, I pay a large sum of tax. I am not yellow shirt but I am very much against Thaksin coming back and taking over the country again. I have dealt with him and his cronies and I got only one word to describe him: Megalomaniac. In the past, it's always been the people vs Government/Military. Thaksin has created a new: People vs People and this is the reason why he is a VERY dangerous individual.

What seriously disturbs me is that some of the "educated" posters in here can't see thru it all....anyone with a bit of education (and logic and common sense) should see this, but they are somewhat blinded by the "fight for the poor/long live democracy" mentality that they don't realize that the person they worship i.e. Thaksin, is doing exactly the opposite of what they fight for. And even if they do see it, they are held hostage by their initial stance on siding with Thaksin so changing their mind in public would be embarrassing aka losing face.

By the blatant arrogant actions of this Government to bring back Thaksin during the floods, I can only see Thailand nose diving to another low with a lot of violent times coming up. Let me describe exactly what's going to happen:

Anti-Thaksin groups are currently being assembled and grows larger day by day. Street protests will start soon. Thaksin will have his red terrorist army countering the protests. Jatuporn and his motor mouth will start spreading propaganda and inciting violence again while Chalerm and Thaksin's brother in law Chief of Police will behind the scenes make sure rule of Red mob can proceed without legal actions. Bombs will be thrown at the anti Thaksin protesters. We will have Thaksin blaming the third and invisible hand again. A red shirt is caught on camera, Jatuporn will claim the broken record of "fake Red". This time the silent majority will be fed up and actually fight back with weapons...airport will be shut down waiting for the arrival....skip forward, either (hopefully) a coup or...civil war.

What Thailand needs is new blood. One that is neither Thaksin or Democrats...One that has some intelligence, integrity and genuinely trying to make Thailand a better place. Of course we will not get rid of corruption for the next couple of decades, but we need change NOW for a better future...but I'll say brace for the worst the next 12 months

Your analysis is clear and indeed to many, it seems like the obvious remains quite blur. An appreciated opportunity for some we should not even call politicians since for them politics is just a mean they use and abuse for personal agendas.

Italy suffered the same syndrome for far too many years and getting rid of the tumor has proved to be a long and hard process, not even fully achieved since backstage influence can be as detrimental as the actual presence.

Reading your post (I didn't start from the first paragraph), I was truly hoping this could have been the opinion of a Thai person and I'm truly happy to see it is actually the case.

I do totally agree with you about the need for fresh blood.

There is an intelligentsia in Thailand like in any other country but its voice is covered by the coin-throwing, conflict-prone groups/parties. The only way forward is for the Thai citizens to start a real analysis process led by objective people with intellectual legitimacy and neutrality. They are basically invisible by now. The landscape is crowded by the individuals mentioned above.

I witness among my Thai friends the feelings you described. It goes from disgust to giving up. The higher the education, the stronger the feeling. For the future of Thailand, I hope a more constructive path could appear soon. But intellectuals with vision will have to pave the road. The political arena now is just a vicious circle of cheap demagogy answering short term gratifications while avoiding any essential issue or change. Meanwhile, the country stagnates. Last year riots were very close to some sort of civil war. In case two groups come into a collision course now, Thailand would indeed enter uncharted territories.

Once again, anyone loving this country wishes it a better future. It means changes, not status-quo or free way for opportunists.

[Credo]

Termsak, excellent post and it's difficult to disagree with you. Democracy is not a short cut to everyone getting their own way. The institutions in Thailand need to be strengthened to the point where wrong-doers simply are not allowed to walk free. Regardless of which side of the political divide they support. The problem in Thailand is this has not happened.

Important people are simply not punished and if they are, they are allowed to escape because the prisons are for the poor.

No society is equal, but the system of justice must be equal and it must be blind to status and personality. It must be viewed as treating everyone the same, regardless of position.

Demonstrations cannot be allowed to disrupt the lives of huge numbers of people. They cannot be permitted to take over roads and buildings without serious consequences and an early intervention. Intervention needs to happen BEFORE large numbers of people are injured or killed. Freedom of assembly does not equate to anarchy.

[jpinx]

Look at the Occupy Wallstreet protests and how USA copes with demonstrations -- clear them out and in effect make the protests almost impossible by brute force of police. Is that what is wanted in Thailand?

Or look at today's news from Cairo -- there is no peaceful road to "democracy" because the incumbents are invariably totally ego-centric -- witness the military in Egypt

Edited November 20, 2011 by jpinx

[termsak]

Gentlemen, it's easy for us Thais to sit and write the future of Thailand. Reality is a completely different case. We can wish for the new blood, but his/her path will not be easy, next to impossible. To come in power, one must possess a couple of key elements: money, connections and the army's approval...unfortunately, the people's approval seems to be the least needed factor when it comes to Thai politics as the aforementioned factors will eventually stop one. We Thais are fed up with the system as it is...the same old faces around and around in an evil cycle. If you think Thaksin & Co and the Dems, BJT, CP + whoever are not the same gang, you are wrong. This country has been run by the same gang/families for a long long time behind the scenes. It's just that Thaksin tries to take it to a whole new level i.e. going against sharing the cake evenly and challenging something that we Thais cannot discuss openly. Red shirts/Yellow shirts? same people at the top (I hope you do remember that Thaksin and Sonthi/Chamlong used to be best pals)...I have been sitting and having dinner and drinks with the lead investigator and prime suspect at the same table...all laughing and enjoying their night out. It's all an act in front of camera and papers...and who suffers from this scheme? The normal Somchai and the foreigners investing in Thailand...

Bottom line is, money is the main corrupting factor in Thailand and there seems to be no cure...it's too embedded into our culture. From the mini mafias running the flowers sold at intersections, from the Kamnans controlling the tiny areas in upcountry, our infamous BiB, the military, schools, BMA, government projects...everywhere, even public donations...Thai's will always find a way to get THB...from small gold fish to the big whale. We do indeed shoot ourselves in our feet. We will be the stagnating country relying on tourism, rice and foreign investment for as long as we can, which is a big shame. We have/had so much potential...Our leaders don't really care about this...but when that milking cow dries up...then what?

[dominique355]

These same hi-so's that were crying to save Bangkok now find it in their hearts to protest. Well if you had 1 meter of water in your house you probably wouldn't have the energy or notion to be protesting. Think of the millions suffering from the flood before you think about getting things your own way. If you have enough energy to protest, grab a shovel and start cleaning up Thailand. It is about time you do something for others than yourselves. Protesting is a selfish, selfish act in a time when the country needs togetherness

Which is exactly why Chalerm, Yingluck and Co. have orchestrated Thaksin's return now.

Hoping it will pass unnoticed with all the problems with flooding. They even tried to make their cabinet meeting secret, but there was a leakage. Mistake No. 1.

Yingluck's lame excuse for being physically absent at this secret meeting, trying to escape the anger was mistake No. 2. She is the boss, she HAS to know.

So let's wait and see for mistake No. 3.

[scott1999]

sorry for posting if this is the wrong thread mods please move if so,

i live lam luk ka khlong 4 and i have been posting about the floods,

i just went to my local 7/11 , and the red shirt people are in full swing , at the same place as last year, nice, rubbish is everywhere, from the floods and now we have this, starting from tomorrow, so if you want to buy this years red shirt , they are on sale as of now,

for the love of god, could we just have time for the floods to go , and rubbish collected ,

[Fookhaht]

News item: "The proposal is unacceptable to the Democrats and many others in society. But it is obviously acceptable to the Yingluck government. The difference is Pheu Thai has the mandate of the majority of the Thai voting public."

OK, so it seems quite simple and straightforward in four easily-understood points of logic....

#1: The majority party is drafting a plan to include Thaksin in the list of amnesty recipients.

#2: The majority party has the mandate of the majority of the Thai voting public.

#3: The minority party doesn't agree and is offended. However, the minority party has already had it's heyday (trashing the constitution, political appointments, padding the courts, jailing and trying the red shirts, etc.)

#4: It's supposed to be a democracy.

Next ?

[frodo]

sorry for posting if this is the wrong thread mods please move if so,

i live lam luk ka khlong 4 and i have been posting about the floods,

i just went to my local 7/11 , and the red shirt people are in full swing , at the same place as last year, nice, rubbish is everywhere, from the floods and now we have this, starting from tomorrow, so if you want to buy this years red shirt , they are on sale as of now,

for the love of god, could we just have time for the floods to go , and rubbish collected ,

I hope this will be another failed attempt and the money will dry up immediately. But hey, they have those new lovely red shirts now. Imagine what they can do with those with regards to their flooded home: They have a nice cloth to wash their filthy, disease laden, and feces infested walls and floors. Since clean water may not be available for cleaning ones behind, they now have a nice soft t/p which will do the job just fine. Can't think of much else they'd be good for.

[dominique355]

News item: "The proposal is unacceptable to the Democrats and many others in society. But it is obviously acceptable to the Yingluck government. The difference is Pheu Thai has the mandate of the majority of the Thai voting public."

OK, so it seems quite simple and straightforward in four easily-understood points of logic....

#1: The majority party is drafting a plan to include Thaksin in the list of amnesty recipients.

#2: The majority party has the mandate of the majority of the Thai voting public.

#3: The minority party doesn't agree and is offended. However, the minority party has already had it's heyday (trashing the constitution, political appointments, padding the courts, jailing and trying the red shirts, etc.)

#4: It's supposed to be a democracy.

Next ?

It's not that easy. True, the present government has a majority of votes and of MPs. True, the Thai Penal Code provides for the possibility of the government to issue an amnesty.

So what the government does is legal, no doubt about this.

But is it legitimate, wise, does it benefit the country, reconcile the people? I doubt that very much.

In a true democracy the majority does not rule like a dictator, but takes into account the views and necessities of the minority. Remember, "democracy" means "power of the people", meaning all the people, not just 50% + 1.

What is really upsetting here is the timing and the secrecy, like they have something to hide (in fact they do!). And what is even more upsetting is that corrupt politician give corruption a "carte blanche". Wasn't fighting drugs and corruption an election promise? Just like bringing reconciliation? Where is that now? And wasn't it Yingluck who said, bring back her brother was not a priority? Well, 3 months into being in office and already done. I wonder what other non-priorities we will see realized so soon.

What is also upsetting is Yingluck's attempt to weasel out of this. Truly not a leader.

From Chalerm I didn't expect anything else, he has debts to pay back (killing in a night club, desertion)...

[Fookhaht]

News item: "The proposal is unacceptable to the Democrats and many others in society. But it is obviously acceptable to the Yingluck government. The difference is Pheu Thai has the mandate of the majority of the Thai voting public."

OK, so it seems quite simple and straightforward in four easily-understood points of logic....

#1: The majority party is drafting a plan to include Thaksin in the list of amnesty recipients.

#2: The majority party has the mandate of the majority of the Thai voting public.

#3: The minority party doesn't agree and is offended. However, the minority party has already had it's heyday (trashing the constitution, political appointments, padding the courts, jailing and trying the red shirts, etc.)

#4: It's supposed to be a democracy.

Next ?

In a true democracy the majority does not rule like a dictator, but takes into account the views and necessities of the minority. Remember, "democracy" means "power of the people", meaning all the people, not just 50% + 1.

Yes, in an ideal world. Sigh. Not even the "bastion of democracy" (USA) can seem to rise to this ideal level. Exhibit A: the recent USA debt-ceiling fiasco where unbending congressional parties brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy, seriously damaging the world's trust in the US's financial stability.

I was just trying to describe reality, not "what should be." Sadly, Thai politics is still keen on the dog-eat-dog-dam_n-the-country's-real-needs mentality. It's not gonna happen in our lifetime, I'm afraid.

What is really upsetting here is the timing and the secrecy, like they have something to hide (in fact they do!).

Wasn't hidden very well, was it? Seems like the news exposed it from Day One, and has run with it ever since.

Your other points well-taken. I love being a devil's advocate on some of these threads to bring out level-headed thinkers like you.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Fookhaht

[TAWP]

The news leaked out for the same reason that Thaksin started losing control over his part after the election in 2005 - and then went on to declare a surprise snap-election mere months after the election that he so braggigly won with a big majority, all done to prevent any MPs from going through with their plans to break off into splinter-parties due to the inane 90-day rule that we have here - because many MPs on the inside are feeling threatened about the changes and how they might lose power and/or lucrative projects to milk money from.

So details about 'secret' meeting leak out.

[erobando]

^ Yeah, the problem is that, whatever the outcome with Thaksin, this is an example of how Thailand is only a "democracy" in name.

Here, politics are about people... People obtain win elections so that they can further personal agendas.

The PTP do have the control of parliament and can advance their platform. Unfortunately, they're platform isn't about policy but about individual people (or a person, in this case).

If they wanted to advance the cause of the "rural poor," they could enact programs to do so. But they don't... sure, minimum wage will be increased but that's more like a coupon to entice votes rather than part of an overall policy platform. Also, in this case, "rural poor" means people that vote for them... rural people in Southern Thailand don't count.

The PTP know that bringing Thaksin back will lead to increased opposition and distractions... but it's obvious that they'd prefer to spend time resources on defending this than, say, actually doing things that might actually lead to a more equitable distribution of wealth and greater socioeconomic mobility.

And, really, why would they need to do anything else? They know that they'll get a majority of parliament seats no matter what they do.

[animatic]

Gentlemen, it's easy for us Thais to sit and write the future of Thailand. Reality is a completely different case. We can wish for the new blood, but his/her path will not be easy, next to impossible. To come in power, one must possess a couple of key elements: money, connections and the army's approval...unfortunately, the people's approval seems to be the least needed factor when it comes to Thai politics as the aforementioned factors will eventually stop one. We Thais are fed up with the system as it is...the same old faces around and around in an evil cycle. If you think Thaksin & Co and the Dems, BJT, CP + whoever are not the same gang, you are wrong. This country has been run by the same gang/families for a long long time behind the scenes. It's just that Thaksin tries to take it to a whole new level i.e. going against sharing the cake evenly and challenging something that we Thais cannot discuss openly. Red shirts/Yellow shirts? same people at the top (I hope you do remember that Thaksin and Sonthi/Chamlong used to be best pals)...I have been sitting and having dinner and drinks with the lead investigator and prime suspect at the same table...all laughing and enjoying their night out. It's all an act in front of camera and papers...and who suffers from this scheme? The normal Somchai and the foreigners investing in Thailand...

Bottom line is, money is the main corrupting factor in Thailand and there seems to be no cure...it's too embedded into our culture. From the mini mafias running the flowers sold at intersections, from the Kamnans controlling the tiny areas in upcountry, our infamous BiB, the military, schools, BMA, government projects...everywhere, even public donations...Thai's will always find a way to get THB...from small gold fish to the big whale. We do indeed shoot ourselves in our feet. We will be the stagnating country relying on tourism, rice and foreign investment for as long as we can, which is a big shame. We have/had so much potential...Our leaders don't really care about this...but when that milking cow dries up...then what?

I hear what you say.

I think the fundamental problem 1 is :

Face = Money = Power = Respect = Status in Society.

A society that measures ever interpersonal meeting by super subtle weis of respect and face acknowledgment.

Attached problem 2: How you make face is not important.

Making it and showing it are what count.

Far too many see it as OK getting power and money by means that are seen as repellant by most people, because once they have it that wei in public goes much deeper and fewer and fewer ever dispute their plans. It seems to be utterly intoxicating for many.

And consequently not getting it, when you had it and lost it,

or you just believe you deserve it,

rankles at a fundamentally deep personal level.

I remember Prem 'wei'ing Thaksin' at the army leader Anupong's mother's funeral, where he was clearly unwelcome. Prem wei'd Thaksin from the navel while shooting eye daggers at Thaksin for the presumption of invading a sacred and mournful occasion, to get his little face making photo-op, which failed spectacularly.

Thaksin lost much face and of course wants it back plus extra for his pain. Add this to the prevailing cultural Face making / saving paradigm and here we are with more grandiose, and culturally dangerous, ego making BS. from that Kuhn T.

3rd problem is Nationalism.

The nationalistic training from cradle to adulthood that built a 'FORMERLY united Thai People', has lead many to believe that they are somehow better than all other country's peoples, regardless of visible proof to the contrary. Not that anyone is better the other way either, just different, and all countries have nationalism to some extent. Still this fuels a hatred or disrespect for others than is an undercurrent in Thai life in relation to the outside world.

But the problem here is this mixes with face to make people

not listen to alternate ideas because ' they are not Thai Enough'

or it's not the 'Thai Way' ,'They just don't understand the Thai way',etc.

Ok fine it was necessary to make a unified people from crossroads Siam and it's neighbors cousins, back when the nation was founded, but it has gone way too far, and no one dares cool it down lest they be labeled 'not nationalistic enough' a near crime in of itself.

Cousins from all sides are vilified as 'Not Thai' so somehow lesser, which made anyone who joined part of the New Nation, but this has long been unnecessary and a detriment to Thailands growth both internally and internationally.

This is also reflected by the centrally grouped people looking down on Issan people as too Lao/Khemer, etc. and so inferior. Thailands nationalism used to force cultures to a monomaniac singleness that is not reflected in reality It is overlaid as part of nationalism run amok, and is a great factor in the current Red Shirt uprising and Thaksins ability to co-opt them for his own reasons.

Of course making these observations about the culture is not meant in a mean-spirited sense, but as observations to cultural set points as they affect our current state of affairs socially, internationally and internally on political matters.

Edited November 21, 2011 by animatic