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Gay Rights Before Palestinian Statehood

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It's a different way of defining maleness- as a sexual role and as related to machismo.  This way of defining masculinity is also quite common in Hispanic cultures (the word comes from Spanish, after all), so you see a lot of macho men with girly-girl katoey-esque types.

Many traditional North American cultures (i.e. the Indians) were considered to have 3 sexes; male, female, and, well, kathoey (the French, who first documented the phenomenon, referred to them as "berdaches.")  A young boy who seemed soft was given a ritual of choice upon entering puberty- one that I recall is that he was put into a tent with men's tools (bow and arrows) and women's tools (pots and sewing) and the tent was ritually set on fire.  If he came out with the men's tools he took the male role as an adult, if he came out with the women's tools he was a berdache.  Berdaches would dress and have the same duties as a woman in the tribe, and could also become medicine men and shamans.  Men could be married either to a woman or a berdache, without bringing any shame on themselves.

Equivalent figures among native tribes in South America had a specialised role in raising children in the tribes.  Among many aboriginal Australian groups, they were regarded as having two souls, and also played imported spiritual roles in group life.

Male-male sexuality has a much grander and more complex history and present-day expression than most people know.

"Steven"

Cool, where did you learn all this?

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I don't know if this is myth or not but i was once told that Muslims believe that the next Prophet will be born from Man and so this is why it is OK for men to have sex together and it is not neccessarily viewed as being Gay.

Can anyone confirm or not?

Can anyone answer this? :o

I don't know if this is myth or not but i was once told that Muslims believe that the next Prophet will be born from Man and so this is why it is OK for men to have sex together and it is not neccessarily viewed as being Gay.

Can anyone confirm or not?

Can anyone answer this? :o

I think it is probably bull sh1t...and such uninteresting bull sh1t that no bogus web site has arisen to promote it.

Thai Bebop: from long experience... :o... Actually, I've had to do quite a bit of searching in the past for legitimate information and research about homosexual history (it's easier these days, especially with the Internet). It's important when the history is often swept into the closet or used for political ends. I don't want to be defined by American nuclear-family gay marriage PC politics any more than I want to be defined by the Christian loony fringe. I can recommend a couple of book titles for further reading if you're interested.

"Steven"

It's a different way of defining maleness- as a sexual role and as related to machismo.  This way of defining masculinity is also quite common in Hispanic cultures (the word comes from Spanish, after all), so you see a lot of macho men with girly-girl katoey-esque types.

Many traditional North American cultures (i.e. the Indians) were considered to have 3 sexes; male, female, and, well, kathoey (the French, who first documented the phenomenon, referred to them as "berdaches.")  A young boy who seemed soft was given a ritual of choice upon entering puberty- one that I recall is that he was put into a tent with men's tools (bow and arrows) and women's tools (pots and sewing) and the tent was ritually set on fire.  If he came out with the men's tools he took the male role as an adult, if he came out with the women's tools he was a berdache.  Berdaches would dress and have the same duties as a woman in the tribe, and could also become medicine men and shamans.  Men could be married either to a woman or a berdache, without bringing any shame on themselves.

Equivalent figures among native tribes in South America had a specialised role in raising children in the tribes.  Among many aboriginal Australian groups, they were regarded as having two souls, and also played imported spiritual roles in group life.

Male-male sexuality has a much grander and more complex history and present-day expression than most people know.

"Steven"

Fascinating, Steve. I am still puzzled about how much the US has a Gay obsession. Most other countries don't seem to care, and that includes Muslim countries. Is the US scared of being more evolved by recognizing and integrating Gays in their society ? Are gays really integrated in the US or are they still marginal ? maybe integrated on a micro level only

Thai Bebop:  from long experience... :o... Actually, I've had to do quite a bit of searching in the past for legitimate information and research about homosexual history (it's easier these days, especially with the Internet).  It's important when the history is often swept into the closet or used for political ends.  I don't want to be defined by American nuclear-family gay marriage PC politics any more than I want to be defined by the Christian loony fringe.  I can recommend a couple of book titles for further reading if you're interested.

"Steven"

I would be very much interested. I am working on BA in History than on to a Masters, so anything history I enjoy, have since I was a kid.

^Butterfly, I think the U.S. is uniquely sex-phobic, for some reason. It may have to do with having imported Victorian culture (rather than the Puritans, who were actually fairly pro-sex- the Scarlet Letter is a Victorian values drama set in Puritan times, but does not reflect Puritan values- in Puritan times, not putting out for your spouse (male or female) was sufficient grounds for divorce) and never having gotten over it.

"Steven"

It's a different way of defining maleness- as a sexual role and as related to machismo.  This way of defining masculinity is also quite common in Hispanic cultures (the word comes from Spanish, after all), so you see a lot of macho men with girly-girl katoey-esque types.

Many traditional North American cultures (i.e. the Indians) were considered to have 3 sexes; male, female, and, well, kathoey (the French, who first documented the phenomenon, referred to them as "berdaches.")  A young boy who seemed soft was given a ritual of choice upon entering puberty- one that I recall is that he was put into a tent with men's tools (bow and arrows) and women's tools (pots and sewing) and the tent was ritually set on fire.  If he came out with the men's tools he took the male role as an adult, if he came out with the women's tools he was a berdache.  Berdaches would dress and have the same duties as a woman in the tribe, and could also become medicine men and shamans.  Men could be married either to a woman or a berdache, without bringing any shame on themselves.

Equivalent figures among native tribes in South America had a specialised role in raising children in the tribes.  Among many aboriginal Australian groups, they were regarded as having two souls, and also played imported spiritual roles in group life.

Male-male sexuality has a much grander and more complex history and present-day expression than most people know.

"Steven"

Fascinating, Steve. I am still puzzled about how much the US has a Gay obsession. Most other countries don't seem to care, and that includes Muslim countries. Is the US scared of being more evolved by recognizing and integrating Gays in their society ? Are gays really integrated in the US or are they still marginal ? maybe integrated on a micro level only

Uhh...ever heard of San Francisco? :o

Maybe SF exists precisely because there will always be gays and lesbians, and if they are rejected by the mainstream, they are eventually forced to find a place where they can live without facing too much prejudice every day...

Butterfly and Meadish you are both right. There are very few places in this country where gays and feel comfortable. It's getting better, but most people seem to think as long as the gays are on TV it's okay. The minute Carson of the Fab Five comes to dinner family values are being challenged.

      Much criticism has been leveled at gay organizations for their reluctance to make much ado about the Iranian government's public hanging of two gay youths this past summer. The incident was not a rarity in the Islamic world, but the availability of photographs documenting the murder stunned a gay community complacent when it comes to the rights of gays abroad-perhaps because of our own, relatively tame, struggles here at home.

In the particular case mentioned there were reports in the UK press that the youths who were executed had been caught sexually abusing a 13? year old.

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