PAD Vows To Thwart Government On Thaksin Pardon

[Buchholz]

The article mentions only the land deal charges for the pardon. Will the pardon include terrorism charges from his previously sponsored Red Shirt unrest? Guess not enough details at the moment.

It's impossible to pardon a conviction before it's even processed for prosecution and a guilty verdict is rendered... unless, of course, that's yet another Pheu Thai Party criteria rewrite of the decree seeking a Royal Pardon.

.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[pimay11]

As I have posted before my maid's brother is one of the ring leaders of the red mob of thugs here in Udon Thani. By the way she hates this group. This morning she said they had a meeting last night planning their rally today and also making plans to gather up the mob and head to Bangkok when the rallies start there. About 80% of the rice harvest is finished here so now the farmers are looking for income. It's deja vu all over again. So much for the Yingluck government plan for reconciliation.

Did you say the government has a plan besides get Thaskin back

Yes they have two plans. First is to get Thaksin back and then enrich themselves more. As if they are not already rich enough.

[WAERTH]

Nice upstanding and salt of the earth family. The kind you would want as next door neighbors. One banned from politics, one impeached from politics, one fugitive from justice and one clone of the fugitive from justice.

Yeah, and the funny part is they're all more popular than the leader of the opposition.

Ermmm in recent human history lets say the last 100 years or so I can think of at least 25 people that were more popular than the opposition but in the end ruined the countries they ruled. Being popular doesn't equal being smart or capable. It just means they are good at manipulating the masses.

[hanuman1]

]

Yeah, and the funny part is they're all more popular than the leader of the opposition.

Partly correct. More popular to some but it's not really funny for the country as a whole. It just proves that you can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but not all the people all the time. Their support base consists mostly of the ultra rich cronies and the poor that have been duped into thinking that support will turn into riches. Living in Isaan for many years I recognized a long time ago that politicans including the local ones care absolutely nothing about the poor. They only care about inriching themselves at the expense of the poor. This includes the current government. They make big promises during the campaign and convince the populace if they vote for them they will be rich. Case in point "if we are elected you will be rich in six months". Unfortunately due to the massave voter base here in Issan being uneducated they fall for this. These people are my friends and neighbors and I feel so bad for them for being duped into believing this rubbish. Many of the poor farmers are now deeper in debt because of the million Baht village scheme and have no way to pay the money back. Just another example of the Thaksin vote buying scheme. But being a farang and a guest in this country I cannot get involved and try to do anything about it.

But there is hope. What goes around comes around! You reap what you sow. Karma as it is known here in the LOS.

Again we hear this 'government duped the people with promises' line. As if this was the first political party to ever make election promises to the electorate. And the first to break at least some.

No, there are other reasons why these people are popular. It's worth finding out what they are.

[pimay11]

]

Yeah, and the funny part is they're all more popular than the leader of the opposition.

Partly correct. More popular to some but it's not really funny for the country as a whole. It just proves that you can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but not all the people all the time. Their support base consists mostly of the ultra rich cronies and the poor that have been duped into thinking that support will turn into riches. Living in Isaan for many years I recognized a long time ago that politicans including the local ones care absolutely nothing about the poor. They only care about inriching themselves at the expense of the poor. This includes the current government. They make big promises during the campaign and convince the populace if they vote for them they will be rich. Case in point "if we are elected you will be rich in six months". Unfortunately due to the massave voter base here in Issan being uneducated they fall for this. These people are my friends and neighbors and I feel so bad for them for being duped into believing this rubbish. Many of the poor farmers are now deeper in debt because of the million Baht village scheme and have no way to pay the money back. Just another example of the Thaksin vote buying scheme. But being a farang and a guest in this country I cannot get involved and try to do anything about it.

But there is hope. What goes around comes around! You reap what you sow. Karma as it is known here in the LOS.

Again we hear this 'government duped the people with promises' line. As if this was the first political party to ever make election promises to the electorate. And the first to break at least some.

No, there are other reasons why these people are popular. It's worth finding out what they are.

Ok please enlighten me to the reasons they are popular other than the ones I stated. Knowledge is power

[ramrod711]

To overcome this proposed pardon by claiming it is not legal will be a difficult argument to win, partly because the whole idea of the Royal Pardon is it is seperate from the law. Also it looks like the government is being very careful to ensure that they are legal on this - the Justice Ministry panel to look at legal aspects and then Council of State to look at constitutional issues.

The biggest culprit here for giving the proposals legal tenure is the previous administration who either through short-sightedness, incompetence or brilliant political foresight set this whole situation up. It is them that removed the stipulation in the 2007 pardon decree that required a third of the sentence to have been served and then added the exemption for corruption offences. They couldn't have made it much easier for the current government and set the very clear example that the rules can be changed for political means. It seems rather obvious that the corruption exemption was put in place to prevent the previous pardon applying to Thaksin so the now argue that the current lot are manipulating the procedure because of one person sounds a bit hollow.

even if they don't get it legally, they will get it by turning the red shirt goons, thugs and idiots loose. possibly jatuporn will advise them to burn bangkok.....again

[gl555]

If the Thaksin cronies insist on going down this path, then they only have themselves to blame for giving the Army the excuse to stage a coup.

[pimay11]

To overcome this proposed pardon by claiming it is not legal will be a difficult argument to win, partly because the whole idea of the Royal Pardon is it is seperate from the law. Also it looks like the government is being very careful to ensure that they are legal on this - the Justice Ministry panel to look at legal aspects and then Council of State to look at constitutional issues.

The biggest culprit here for giving the proposals legal tenure is the previous administration who either through short-sightedness, incompetence or brilliant political foresight set this whole situation up. It is them that removed the stipulation in the 2007 pardon decree that required a third of the sentence to have been served and then added the exemption for corruption offences. They couldn't have made it much easier for the current government and set the very clear example that the rules can be changed for political means. It seems rather obvious that the corruption exemption was put in place to prevent the previous pardon applying to Thaksin so the now argue that the current lot are manipulating the procedure because of one person sounds a bit hollow.

even if they don't get it legally, they will get it by turning the red shirt goons, thugs and idiots loose. possibly jatuporn will advise them to burn bangkok.....again

Right you are. I know I have posted this before but one thing about it, the red apologists here on TV have never responded with any kind of justification to this idiot's speech. . How can they.

"If you seize power from us, then we'll burn the whole country down. Burn it, burn everything, my brothers — Guarantee: Bangkok will turn into a sea of flames. Those of you who live in the country, it's OK if you cannot join us. If anything happens, just gather at your provincial or city halls. No need to wait for the order. Burn your city halls down to the ground." MP jutaporn quote from the red stage during the burn Bangkok campaign.

[hanuman1]

]

Yeah, and the funny part is they're all more popular than the leader of the opposition.

Partly correct. More popular to some but it's not really funny for the country as a whole. It just proves that you can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but not all the people all the time. Their support base consists mostly of the ultra rich cronies and the poor that have been duped into thinking that support will turn into riches. Living in Isaan for many years I recognized a long time ago that politicans including the local ones care absolutely nothing about the poor. They only care about inriching themselves at the expense of the poor. This includes the current government. They make big promises during the campaign and convince the populace if they vote for them they will be rich. Case in point "if we are elected you will be rich in six months". Unfortunately due to the massave voter base here in Issan being uneducated they fall for this. These people are my friends and neighbors and I feel so bad for them for being duped into believing this rubbish. Many of the poor farmers are now deeper in debt because of the million Baht village scheme and have no way to pay the money back. Just another example of the Thaksin vote buying scheme. But being a farang and a guest in this country I cannot get involved and try to do anything about it.

But there is hope. What goes around comes around! You reap what you sow. Karma as it is known here in the LOS.

Again we hear this 'government duped the people with promises' line. As if this was the first political party to ever make election promises to the electorate. And the first to break at least some.

No, there are other reasons why these people are popular. It's worth finding out what they are.

Ok please enlighten me to the reasons they are popular other than the ones I stated. Knowledge is power

I can't enlighten you. That's your job. I can only express my opinion, which is all anyone can do on this board.

In my opinion there are 2 reasons why those people are more popular than the leader of the opposition.

1) Among the rural poor there is a perception that it was on Thaksin's watch that they were - for the first time - not entirely ignored by a government. The first time that a linkage between the electorate and the people they put in power could be discerned.

Prior to that, the Thai electorate was well used to the BS of politicians - their continuous broken promises in particular - one government after another. I think the general feeling was 'They're politicians - they do what they do. What can we do about it? Better to just get on with our lives and let them get on with whatever it is they do'. Such apathy was partly why vote buying was so much easier and more widespread a few decades ago. People just weren't interested because they felt politics was what happened on another planet and had little to offer them.

That's what Thaksin changed. Through fair means or foul, he invigorated public political debate having made the rural poor feel somehow linked to the politics in Bangkok. What other party had ever achieved this? None. It was a first. So people still like Thaksin for actually showing that politics can have an effect on their lives. They felt it and no-one else can deny that. The point I want to make though is that it's not simply the idea that his populist schemes made a positive effect on people's bottom line. No doubt many Thais think it did and like him for that even though some here will debate the wisdom of those measures over the longer term. Fair enough. But it's also this point about it having been the first time EVER that people felt that they were being brought in from the cold and actually being not just acknowledged but understood in government. Enfranchised with the political process. And that is valuable and desirable to them. And it was under Thaksin's watch that they first had these feelings.

2) I feel another sizeable block of PTP voters aren't necessarily Thaksin-lovers but just don't like the way coups are used to decide Thai governments. Their vote for PTP was as much a vote against the established way of doing things, or if you like, a vote against the weakness of the constitution. They may not even have been over-enamoured with PTP, but used their vote as a 'No' to the Dems and their perceived backers.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

[whybother]

If Thaksin were pardoned and came back to Thailand, wouldn't he then face charges for not appearing in court, terrorism and other corruption charges? He can't be pardoned for those crimes as they haven't gone through the courts yet.

I say, pardon him and let him return, then arrest him and throw him in jail for his other crimes.

Not sure which things he is hoping to get pardoned for but in regard to all the other charges he may be facing on his return.

What if the ministry of justice decided to drop all those??

Wouldn`t he come back with a pardon and not have to face any other charges??

He can only be pardoned for crimes he's been convicted of. He'd need an amnesty for the rest of the charges ... or for them all to be conveniently forgotten.

[whybother]

I did not realize that the PAD was still in existence. My advice: Treat them like Abhisit treated the red shirts. Don't use live firing zone though and no army, just the police with batons will do. They do not have much support anyhow, their vote "no" campaign even resulted in less spoiled votes than in previous elections. Treat the PAD like a militia that want to overthrow a democratically elected government, if I am not mistaken this government has a 2/3 majority. The fact that PAD is almost dead is clearly seen in the numbers that attended their mass rally yesterday. Acoording real sources the numbers were between 500 and 700. To see the PAD numbers in the right perspective. Their is still a petition that is shelved by the anti Democrat Party to pardon Thaksin and that has millions of signatures.

When the PAD bring out their armed militia, the government will have the right to respond in kind.

Yes ... the "anti Democratic Party" (ie the PTP) have shelved the petition to pardon Thaksin. Why haven't they done anything with it since they were elected?

[Orac]

I did not realize that the PAD was still in existence. My advice: Treat them like Abhisit treated the red shirts. Don't use live firing zone though and no army, just the police with batons will do. They do not have much support anyhow, their vote "no" campaign even resulted in less spoiled votes than in previous elections. Treat the PAD like a militia that want to overthrow a democratically elected government, if I am not mistaken this government has a 2/3 majority. The fact that PAD is almost dead is clearly seen in the numbers that attended their mass rally yesterday. Acoording real sources the numbers were between 500 and 700. To see the PAD numbers in the right perspective. Their is still a petition that is shelved by the anti Democrat Party to pardon Thaksin and that has millions of signatures.

When the PAD bring out their armed militia, the government will have the right to respond in kind.

Yes ... the "anti Democratic Party" (ie the PTP) have shelved the petition to pardon Thaksin. Why haven't they done anything with it since they were elected?

Could be that they have been busy dealing with other things - the flooding for one. It does seem to pour water on the claim that the government has only one purpose and is focused on Thaksins return.

[pimay11]

]

Yeah, and the funny part is they're all more popular than the leader of the opposition.

I can't enlighten you. That's your job. I can only express my opinion, which is all anyone can do on this board.

In my opinion there are 2 reasons why those people are more popular than the leader of the opposition.

1) Among the rural poor there is a perception that it was on Thaksin's watch that they were - for the first time - not entirely ignored by a government. The first time that a linkage between the electorate and the people they put in power could be discerned.

Prior to that, the Thai electorate was well used to the BS of politicians - their continuous broken promises in particular - one government after another. I think the general feeling was 'They're politicians - they do what they do. What can we do about it? Better to just get on with our lives and let them get on with whatever it is they do'. Such apathy was partly why vote buying was so much easier and more widespread a few decades ago. People just weren't interested because they felt politics was what happened on another planet and had little to offer them.

That's what Thaksin changed. Through fair means or foul, he invigorated public political debate having made the rural poor feel somehow linked to the politics in Bangkok. What other party had ever achieved this? None. It was a first. So people still like Thaksin for actually showing that politics can have an effect on their lives. They felt it and no-one else can deny that. The point I want to make though is that it's not simply the idea that his populist schemes made a positive effect on people's bottom line. No doubt many Thais think it did and like him for that even though some here will debate the wisdom of those measures over the longer term. Fair enough. But it's also this point about it having been the first time EVER that people felt that they were being brought in from the cold and actually being not just acknowledged but understood in government. Enfranchised with the political process. And that is valuable and desirable to them. And it was under Thaksin's watch that they first had these feelings.

2) I feel another sizeable block of PTP voters aren't necessarily Thaksin-lovers but just don't like the way coups are used to decide Thai governments. Their vote for PTP was as much a vote against the established way of doing things, or if you like, a vote against the weakness of the constitution. They may not even have been over-enamoured with PTP, but used their vote as a 'No' to the Dems and their perceived backers.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Thank you for the well thought out reply. Fair enough. I do agree that Thaksin did start the OTOP program which went well in the beginning. This was certainly a positive for the rural people. The 1M Baht village fund was just a stealthy way of buying votes, nothing else because he knew in the long run most poor people would end up in debt unable to pay back the loans. He knows how to win the hearts of the poor, giving away a taxi or two, going to a rural Northeast village and handing out 1,000B notes and other things he did to insure his voter base.

When he was first elected I supported him. Then I began to see what his real agenda was of self enrichment at the expense of the Thai people. You know what he did as well as I so I won't go into this here. Had he kept on the straight and narrow path he could have become a ledend in his on time instead of a legend in his own mind. But unfortunately his greed was unstoppable. He was his own downfall.

[Buchholz]

I did not realize that the PAD was still in existence. My advice: Treat them like Abhisit treated the red shirts. Don't use live firing zone though and no army, just the police with batons will do. They do not have much support anyhow, their vote "no" campaign even resulted in less spoiled votes than in previous elections. Treat the PAD like a militia that want to overthrow a democratically elected government, if I am not mistaken this government has a 2/3 majority. The fact that PAD is almost dead is clearly seen in the numbers that attended their mass rally yesterday. Acoording real sources the numbers were between 500 and 700. To see the PAD numbers in the right perspective. Their is still a petition that is shelved by the anti Democrat Party to pardon Thaksin and that has millions of signatures.

When the PAD bring out their armed militia, the government will have the right to respond in kind.

Yes ... the "anti Democratic Party" (ie the PTP) have shelved the petition to pardon Thaksin. Why haven't they done anything with it since they were elected?

They are still waiting for it to meet the legal criteria for requesting an individual royal pardon... specifically that it is requested by one of the following:

the convicted (hasn't occurred yet)

the convicted's parents (not applicable - deceased)

the convicted's spouse (not applicable - divorced)

the convicted's offspring (hasn't occurred yet)

http://www.correct.go.th/eng/royal_pardon.html

The Red Shirts wasted a lot of their efforts getting millions to sign a meaningless petition, when all it takes is a single signature from one of the 4 people that are authorized to do so.

.

[hanuman1]

]

Yeah, and the funny part is they're all more popular than the leader of the opposition.

I can't enlighten you. That's your job. I can only express my opinion, which is all anyone can do on this board.

In my opinion there are 2 reasons why those people are more popular than the leader of the opposition.

1) Among the rural poor there is a perception that it was on Thaksin's watch that they were - for the first time - not entirely ignored by a government. The first time that a linkage between the electorate and the people they put in power could be discerned.

Prior to that, the Thai electorate was well used to the BS of politicians - their continuous broken promises in particular - one government after another. I think the general feeling was 'They're politicians - they do what they do. What can we do about it? Better to just get on with our lives and let them get on with whatever it is they do'. Such apathy was partly why vote buying was so much easier and more widespread a few decades ago. People just weren't interested because they felt politics was what happened on another planet and had little to offer them.

That's what Thaksin changed. Through fair means or foul, he invigorated public political debate having made the rural poor feel somehow linked to the politics in Bangkok. What other party had ever achieved this? None. It was a first. So people still like Thaksin for actually showing that politics can have an effect on their lives. They felt it and no-one else can deny that. The point I want to make though is that it's not simply the idea that his populist schemes made a positive effect on people's bottom line. No doubt many Thais think it did and like him for that even though some here will debate the wisdom of those measures over the longer term. Fair enough. But it's also this point about it having been the first time EVER that people felt that they were being brought in from the cold and actually being not just acknowledged but understood in government. Enfranchised with the political process. And that is valuable and desirable to them. And it was under Thaksin's watch that they first had these feelings.

2) I feel another sizeable block of PTP voters aren't necessarily Thaksin-lovers but just don't like the way coups are used to decide Thai governments. Their vote for PTP was as much a vote against the established way of doing things, or if you like, a vote against the weakness of the constitution. They may not even have been over-enamoured with PTP, but used their vote as a 'No' to the Dems and their perceived backers.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Thank you for the well thought out reply. Fair enough. I do agree that Thaksin did start the OTOP program which went well in the beginning. This was certainly a positive for the rural people. The 1M Baht village fund was just a stealthy way of buying votes, nothing else because he knew in the long run most poor people would end up in debt unable to pay back the loans. He knows how to win the hearts of the poor, giving away a taxi or two, going to a rural Northeast village and handing out 1,000B notes and other things he did to insure his voter base.

When he was first elected I supported him. Then I began to see what his real agenda was of self enrichment at the expense of the Thai people. You know what he did as well as I so I won't go into this here. Had he kept on the straight and narrow path he could have become a ledend in his on time instead of a legend in his own mind. But unfortunately his greed was unstoppable. He was his own downfall.

Yes, he's greedy and yes, he has wrongs to put right (or get punished for), but not even his most fanatical detractors should be surprised about the level of Thaksin's popularity. It is high and enduring.

[pimay11]

I did not realize that the PAD was still in existence. My advice: Treat them like Abhisit treated the red shirts. Don't use live firing zone though and no army, just the police with batons will do. They do not have much support anyhow, their vote "no" campaign even resulted in less spoiled votes than in previous elections. Treat the PAD like a militia that want to overthrow a democratically elected government, if I am not mistaken this government has a 2/3 majority. The fact that PAD is almost dead is clearly seen in the numbers that attended their mass rally yesterday. Acoording real sources the numbers were between 500 and 700. To see the PAD numbers in the right perspective. Their is still a petition that is shelved by the anti Democrat Party to pardon Thaksin and that has millions of signatures.

When the PAD bring out their armed militia, the government will have the right to respond in kind.

Yes ... the "anti Democratic Party" (ie the PTP) have shelved the petition to pardon Thaksin. Why haven't they done anything with it since they were elected?

They are still waiting for it to meet the legal criteria for requesting an individual royal pardon... specifically that it is requested by one of the following:

the convicted (hasn't occurred yet)

the convicted's parents (not applicable - deceased)

the convicted's spouse (not applicable - divorced)

the convicted's offspring (hasn't occurred yet)

http://www.correct.g...yal_pardon.html

The Red Shirts wasted a lot of their efforts getting millions to sign a meaningless petition, when all it takes is a single signature from one of the 4 people that are authorized to do so.

.

"The Red Shirts wasted a lot of their efforts getting millions to sign a meaningless petition" Why does this not suprise me?

[AleG]

As I have posted before my maid's brother is one of the ring leaders of the red mob of thugs here in Udon Thani. By the way she hates this group. This morning she said they had a meeting last night planning their rally today and also making plans to gather up the mob and head to Bangkok when the rallies start there. About 80% of the rice harvest is finished here so now the farmers are looking for income. It's deja vu all over again. So much for the Yingluck government plan for reconciliation.

Last year the Red Shirt mob was mobilized at the time the court was going to give a verdict over the frozen assets, a big commotion, dozens of bomb attacks (many at banks that were holding the frozen assets, funny that) and nearly a hundred deaths, Thaksin got some of his ill gotten money back. Lesson learned, terrorizing for profit works!

So I wouldn't be surprised if he tries the same over the pardon issue.

[pimay11]

As I have posted before my maid's brother is one of the ring leaders of the red mob of thugs here in Udon Thani. By the way she hates this group. This morning she said they had a meeting last night planning their rally today and also making plans to gather up the mob and head to Bangkok when the rallies start there. About 80% of the rice harvest is finished here so now the farmers are looking for income. It's deja vu all over again. So much for the Yingluck government plan for reconciliation.

Last year the Red Shirt mob was mobilized at the time the court was going to give a verdict over the frozen assets, a big commotion, dozens of bomb attacks (many at banks that were holding the frozen assets, funny that) and nearly a hundred deaths, Thaksin got some of his ill gotten money back. Lesson learned, terrorizing for profit works!

So I wouldn't be surprised if he tries the same over the pardon issue.

They are already mobilizing in three cities here in the Northeast. It's just a matter of time and a phone call from Dubai away.

[gregb]

Partly correct. More popular to some but it's not really funny for the country as a whole. It just proves that you can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but not all the people all the time. Their support base consists mostly of the ultra rich cronies and the poor that have been duped into thinking that support will turn into riches. Living in Isaan for many years I recognized a long time ago that politicans including the local ones care absolutely nothing about the poor. They only care about inriching themselves at the expense of the poor. This includes the current government. They make big promises during the campaign and convince the populace if they vote for them they will be rich. Case in point "if we are elected you will be rich in six months". Unfortunately due to the massave voter base here in Issan being uneducated they fall for this. These people are my friends and neighbors and I feel so bad for them for being duped into believing this rubbish. Many of the poor farmers are now deeper in debt because of the million Baht village scheme and have no way to pay the money back. Just another example of the Thaksin vote buying scheme. But being a farang and a guest in this country I cannot get involved and try to do anything about it.

But there is hope. What goes around comes around! You reap what you sow. Karma as it is known here in the LOS.

Again we hear this 'government duped the people with promises' line. As if this was the first political party to ever make election promises to the electorate. And the first to break at least some.

No, there are other reasons why these people are popular. It's worth finding out what they are.

Ok please enlighten me to the reasons they are popular other than the ones I stated. Knowledge is power

I can't enlighten you. That's your job. I can only express my opinion, which is all anyone can do on this board.

In my opinion there are 2 reasons why those people are more popular than the leader of the opposition.

1) Among the rural poor there is a perception that it was on Thaksin's watch that they were - for the first time - not entirely ignored by a government. The first time that a linkage between the electorate and the people they put in power could be discerned.

Prior to that, the Thai electorate was well used to the BS of politicians - their continuous broken promises in particular - one government after another. I think the general feeling was 'They're politicians - they do what they do. What can we do about it? Better to just get on with our lives and let them get on with whatever it is they do'. Such apathy was partly why vote buying was so much easier and more widespread a few decades ago. People just weren't interested because they felt politics was what happened on another planet and had little to offer them.

That's what Thaksin changed. Through fair means or foul, he invigorated public political debate having made the rural poor feel somehow linked to the politics in Bangkok. What other party had ever achieved this? None. It was a first. So people still like Thaksin for actually showing that politics can have an effect on their lives. They felt it and no-one else can deny that. The point I want to make though is that it's not simply the idea that his populist schemes made a positive effect on people's bottom line. No doubt many Thais think it did and like him for that even though some here will debate the wisdom of those measures over the longer term. Fair enough. But it's also this point about it having been the first time EVER that people felt that they were being brought in from the cold and actually being not just acknowledged but understood in government. Enfranchised with the political process. And that is valuable and desirable to them. And it was under Thaksin's watch that they first had these feelings.

2) I feel another sizeable block of PTP voters aren't necessarily Thaksin-lovers but just don't like the way coups are used to decide Thai governments. Their vote for PTP was as much a vote against the established way of doing things, or if you like, a vote against the weakness of the constitution. They may not even have been over-enamoured with PTP, but used their vote as a 'No' to the Dems and their perceived backers.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Fine. Let's consider it this way. The person who raped your daughter and killed your entire family was nice to me. Therefore, I think he isn't guilty of rape and murder and should be set free. Who cares what the courts and evidence say? Popularity of any individual never excuses their crimes.

And even if you don't like the coup, you still can not say Thaksin should be pardoned and allowed to return and commit more crimes just because you happen to like the guy and he gives you free stuff. This is red shirt logic which Thailand does not need. If you can identify actual damages that were implemented against you because of the coup, I would support you in a bid for recompense. But neither the removal of the demagogue and criminal to face trial, nor the receipt of spoils from his crimes, constitutes damage.

So the reds feelings are misguided because they aren't considering what he did to the rest of the country. This is what needs to be explained to them, why they are wrong, and why their judgement can not be trusted at the moment. I am happy to join them if they want to go after the people who slighted them, but not when they claim someone who injured me should not be made to pay for what he did.

The problem with the reds is their extreme selfishness. But this is what all demagogues like Thaksin engender in a population, and why even the ancient Greeks knew democracy is impossible in their presence. Until Thaksin is eliminated as a threat, the fledgling attempt at democracy in Thailand is dead. This is what the reds need to learn.

If there truly is any red who doesn't like Thaksin, they need to be vocally denouncing him and explaining the above to their comrades. Until I see one though, I will assume this is a mythical group that exists in theory but not in practice. For now, I will continue in my belief that all reds love Thaksin.

Edited November 20, 2011 by gregb

[hyperdimension]

If there truly is any red who doesn't like Thaksin, they need to be vocally denouncing him and explaining the above to their comrades. Until I see one though, I will assume this is a mythical group that exists in theory but not in practice. For now, I will continue in my belief that all reds love Thaksin.

I think strong PR / perception management campaigns (probably funded by the Shinawatra clan or supporters) in synergy with community peer pressure will ensure that all Red Shirts love Thaksin.

"It's not about Thaksin" was last year.

Edited November 20, 2011 by hyperdimension

[bigbamboo]

If Thaksin is innocent as he says he is then surely requesting or accepting a pardon would necessitate him admitting he is guilty, which he says he isn't. So in order to save face and maintain his stance he should neither request nor accept such a pardon. I would not want to live in a country or serve jail time where I was convicted of something I believed I hadn't done.

Edited November 20, 2011 by bigbamboo

[lannarebirth]

]

Yeah, and the funny part is they're all more popular than the leader of the opposition.

I can't enlighten you. That's your job. I can only express my opinion, which is all anyone can do on this board.

In my opinion there are 2 reasons why those people are more popular than the leader of the opposition.

1) Among the rural poor there is a perception that it was on Thaksin's watch that they were - for the first time - not entirely ignored by a government. The first time that a linkage between the electorate and the people they put in power could be discerned.

Prior to that, the Thai electorate was well used to the BS of politicians - their continuous broken promises in particular - one government after another. I think the general feeling was 'They're politicians - they do what they do. What can we do about it? Better to just get on with our lives and let them get on with whatever it is they do'. Such apathy was partly why vote buying was so much easier and more widespread a few decades ago. People just weren't interested because they felt politics was what happened on another planet and had little to offer them.

That's what Thaksin changed. Through fair means or foul, he invigorated public political debate having made the rural poor feel somehow linked to the politics in Bangkok. What other party had ever achieved this? None. It was a first. So people still like Thaksin for actually showing that politics can have an effect on their lives. They felt it and no-one else can deny that. The point I want to make though is that it's not simply the idea that his populist schemes made a positive effect on people's bottom line. No doubt many Thais think it did and like him for that even though some here will debate the wisdom of those measures over the longer term. Fair enough. But it's also this point about it having been the first time EVER that people felt that they were being brought in from the cold and actually being not just acknowledged but understood in government. Enfranchised with the political process. And that is valuable and desirable to them. And it was under Thaksin's watch that they first had these feelings.

2) I feel another sizeable block of PTP voters aren't necessarily Thaksin-lovers but just don't like the way coups are used to decide Thai governments. Their vote for PTP was as much a vote against the established way of doing things, or if you like, a vote against the weakness of the constitution. They may not even have been over-enamoured with PTP, but used their vote as a 'No' to the Dems and their perceived backers.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Thank you for the well thought out reply. Fair enough. I do agree that Thaksin did start the OTOP program which went well in the beginning. This was certainly a positive for the rural people. The 1M Baht village fund was just a stealthy way of buying votes, nothing else because he knew in the long run most poor people would end up in debt unable to pay back the loans. He knows how to win the hearts of the poor, giving away a taxi or two, going to a rural Northeast village and handing out 1,000B notes and other things he did to insure his voter base.

When he was first elected I supported him. Then I began to see what his real agenda was of self enrichment at the expense of the Thai people. You know what he did as well as I so I won't go into this here. Had he kept on the straight and narrow path he could have become a ledend in his on time instead of a legend in his own mind. But unfortunately his greed was unstoppable. He was his own downfall.

Yes, he's greedy and yes, he has wrongs to put right (or get punished for), but not even his most fanatical detractors should be surprised about the level of Thaksin's popularity. It is high and enduring.

Assuming your right is this a person who is congruent with democracy. By democracy I don't mean majority rule, but all a democracy entails.

[Fookhaht]

PAD has had its heyday as the impetus behind a party that was never elected, but rather existed as a puppet of a military government.

Now PAD's party is the minority. Need to bide its time until it can win the majority of the Thai voting public. The problem in Thai politics is that the losers never seem to be patient with a vote that runs against them. Other democracies have learned to wait it out for the 2 or 4 years until the current rascals can be thrown out by the voters, if need be. Why can't the minority here wait it out?

If they can't wait, it represents and infantile understanding of the democratic process, or at best, an immature inability to be patient. If the ruling party is wrong, give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves. That's what a mature and patient political antagonist would do. Not sure if we have that kind of mettle among PAD supporters here. They're past history already shows their mind-set: "If you can't get it democratically, then send in the guys with the guns to do your dirty work."

[RegularReader]

PAD has had its heyday as the impetus behind a party that was never elected, but rather existed as a puppet of a military government.

Now PAD's party is the minority. Need to bide its time until it can win the majority of the Thai voting public. The problem in Thai politics is that the losers never seem to be patient with a vote that runs against them. Other democracies have learned to wait it out for the 2 or 4 years until the current rascals can be thrown out by the voters, if need be. Why can't the minority here wait it out?

If they can't wait, it represents and infantile understanding of the democratic process, or at best, an immature inability to be patient. If the ruling party is wrong, give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves. That's what a mature and patient political antagonist would do. Not sure if we have that kind of mettle among PAD supporters here. They're past history already shows their mind-set: "If you can't get it democratically, then send in the guys with the guns to do your dirty work."

Not sure you've been following Thai politics or some cliched red shirt fantasy story, because your claims have little to do with the reality of the situation. You could start by reading Hanaman1 and Lannabreaths posts on this thread. Both guys are talking about what really happpened/is happening. Can't say the same for you.

Edited November 20, 2011 by RegularReader

[yoshiwara]

If Thaksin is innocent as he says he is then surely requesting or accepting a pardon would necessitate him admitting he is guilty, which he says he isn't. So in order to save face and maintain his stance he should neither request nor accept such a pardon. I would not want to live in a country or serve jail time where I was convicted of something I believed I hadn't done.

That is correct. Actually he has not requested a pardon. It would be interesting to view a process where he did request/accept a pardon , thereby accepting his guilt and then trying to overturn the legal decision on his return. I am guilty but I am not guilty? The Thaksin apologists know they are in a bind here, so in the meantime prattle on about his popularity as if this should be regarded as a legitimate get out of jail card. If there was any even vague intention re 'reconciliation' (actually it has been a fraud from the beginning) he would request a pardon with a public declaration not to overturn the convictions and some blather about moving on in harmony etc etc. But we won't see that. Not in a million years.

[Fookhaht]

PAD has had its heyday as the impetus behind a party that was never elected, but rather existed as a puppet of a military government.

Now PAD's party is the minority. Need to bide its time until it can win the majority of the Thai voting public. The problem in Thai politics is that the losers never seem to be patient with a vote that runs against them. Other democracies have learned to wait it out for the 2 or 4 years until the current rascals can be thrown out by the voters, if need be. Why can't the minority here wait it out?

If they can't wait, it represents and infantile understanding of the democratic process, or at best, an immature inability to be patient. If the ruling party is wrong, give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves. That's what a mature and patient political antagonist would do. Not sure if we have that kind of mettle among PAD supporters here. They're past history already shows their mind-set: "If you can't get it democratically, then send in the guys with the guns to do your dirty work."

Not sure you've been following Thai politics or some cliched red shirt fantasy story, because your claims have little to do with the reality of the situation. You could start by reading Hanaman1 and Lannabreaths posts on this thread. Both guys are talking about what really happpened/is happening. Can't say the same for you.

One thing I can certainly agree with you about: Your version of reality and mine have not intersected at any point, I believe.

[Foggy Bottom]

Thank you for the well thought out reply. Fair enough. I do agree that Thaksin did start the OTOP program which went well in the beginning. This was certainly a positive for the rural people. The 1M Baht village fund was just a stealthy way of buying votes, nothing else because he knew in the long run most poor people would end up in debt unable to pay back the loans. He knows how to win the hearts of the poor, giving away a taxi or two, going to a rural Northeast village and handing out 1,000B notes and other things he did to insure his voter base.

When he was first elected I supported him. Then I began to see what his real agenda was of self enrichment at the expense of the Thai people. You know what he did as well as I so I won't go into this here. Had he kept on the straight and narrow path he could have become a ledend in his on time instead of a legend in his own mind. But unfortunately his greed was unstoppable. He was his own downfall.

Thaksin did not start OTOP - he only gave it a name. The OTOP concept was created even before LanNa was founded by Mengrai. It was one of the Haripunchai (Lamphun) kings who established it in the north during the 2nd half of the first millennium AD.

Thaksin simply observed how traditional industries operated in the north and gave it a name. Even in Isaan, the concept was in practice when he came to power - consider all the silk villages etc. And in the central plains, the villages famed for specific types of fish and shrimp production were farming those long before Thaksin was born.

Thaksin's only contribution was to give the system a name that could be marketed nationally and internationally.

... and before some one jumps in with it, yes, the original "named concept" for "One VILLAGE One Product" was a Japanese program launched after WW2. Thaksin merely took it and did what Sino-Thai's do best - copied and rebranded something developed by another country.

[lannarebirth]

Thank you for the well thought out reply. Fair enough. I do agree that Thaksin did start the OTOP program which went well in the beginning. This was certainly a positive for the rural people. The 1M Baht village fund was just a stealthy way of buying votes, nothing else because he knew in the long run most poor people would end up in debt unable to pay back the loans. He knows how to win the hearts of the poor, giving away a taxi or two, going to a rural Northeast village and handing out 1,000B notes and other things he did to insure his voter base.

When he was first elected I supported him. Then I began to see what his real agenda was of self enrichment at the expense of the Thai people. You know what he did as well as I so I won't go into this here. Had he kept on the straight and narrow path he could have become a ledend in his on time instead of a legend in his own mind. But unfortunately his greed was unstoppable. He was his own downfall.

Thaksin did not start OTOP - he only gave it a name. The OTOP concept was created even before LanNa was founded by Mengrai. It was one of the Haripunchai (Lamphun) kings who established it in the north during the 2nd half of the first millennium AD.

Thaksin simply observed how traditional industries operated in the north and gave it a name. Even in Isaan, the concept was in practice when he came to power - consider all the silk villages etc. And in the central plains, the villages famed for specific types of fish and shrimp production were farming those long before Thaksin was born.

Thaksin's only contribution was to give the system a name that could be marketed nationally and internationally.

... and before some one jumps in with it, yes, the original "named concept" for "One VILLAGE One Product" was a Japanese program launched after WW2. Thaksin merely took it and did what Sino-Thai's do best - copied and rebranded something developed by another country.

And as it relates to more recent history, both OTOP and Universal Healthcare were the brainchildren of the Chuan administration. It was deemed not to have the tax resources for funding and shelved. Not being able to pay for a scheme never stopped Thaksin and he took them as his own and ran with it. OTOP had some success and the 30 baht's scheme only success is that it started the ball rolling on healthcare at all, which IMO is positive. The dems had to sort out paying for it and improving it which they had limited success with..

[phiphidon]

As I have posted before my maid's brother is one of the ring leaders of the red mob of thugs here in Udon Thani. By the way she hates this group. This morning she said they had a meeting last night planning their rally today and also making plans to gather up the mob and head to Bangkok when the rallies start there. About 80% of the rice harvest is finished here so now the farmers are looking for income. It's deja vu all over again. So much for the Yingluck government plan for reconciliation.

Isn't she the HEAD RED SHIRT?

Figuratively, I would agree, although, literally, she had no qualms attending Red Shirt rallies with her banned TRT MP older sister (left) and her impeached PTP MP niece (center).

.

Is that picture from the yellow shirt manager site?

[rubl]

PAD has had its heyday as the impetus behind a party that was never elected, but rather existed as a puppet of a military government.

Now PAD's party is the minority. Need to bide its time until it can win the majority of the Thai voting public. The problem in Thai politics is that the losers never seem to be patient with a vote that runs against them. Other democracies have learned to wait it out for the 2 or 4 years until the current rascals can be thrown out by the voters, if need be. Why can't the minority here wait it out?

If they can't wait, it represents and infantile understanding of the democratic process, or at best, an immature inability to be patient. If the ruling party is wrong, give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves. That's what a mature and patient political antagonist would do. Not sure if we have that kind of mettle among PAD supporters here. They're past history already shows their mind-set: "If you can't get it democratically, then send in the guys with the guns to do your dirty work."

Not sure you've been following Thai politics or some cliched red shirt fantasy story, because your claims have little to do with the reality of the situation. You could start by reading Hanaman1 and Lannabreaths posts on this thread. Both guys are talking about what really happpened/is happening. Can't say the same for you.

One thing I can certainly agree with you about: Your version of reality and mine have not intersected at any point, I believe.

One thing I really like is when posters tell what their objectives are:

"I love being a devil's advocate on some of these threads to bring out level-headed thinkers like you."