Teach Thai Students To Use English, Expert Says

[SICHONSTEVE]

I would be disturbed if my child was to be taught by many of the ex-pats with whom I have become acquainted. Do we really want young Thai students referring to England as ING-ER-LAND ING-ER-LAND and using the adjective f------g this and f-------g that at every opportunity.

Some form of basic competence in English, both written and oral, must be required before any 'native' speaker be let loose in the classroom.

What are you on about????

I NEVER swear and I think that you are being somewhat naive with this rediculous attitude!!! Maybe you swear and go shouting ING-GER-LAND all the time but English teachers ARE'NT like this and MOST (maybe not all) are responsible human beings intent on trying to teach Thai children a bit of English to benefit their education.

I teach our children English (at kindergarten level) for 1 hour a week with the assistance of one of our Thai teachers and they are coming on very nicely. In fact, one of our pupils (2 years ago) achieved the status of being the number 1 English student in Nakhonsithammarat the following year after graduating from my wife and I's school which makes it all worth while!!!

I plan to teach them to read and write next year which should hold them in good stead for the future!!

[lannarebirth]

Hi Powered think tanks in Australia

:cheesy:

Thanks for that. Made my day.

[aabidiqbal]

hi, my name is mr. aabid

what i read is correct, but to provide a better education to thai kids you dont need only native speakers. i applied for the job as an english teacher but they rejected saying we need only farang. what is it.

if i have the quality or education and qualification, why cant we teach. teaching thai students to learn and speak proper english is good idea...

from childhood only i wanted to be a good english teacher and give my all knowledge to students, i want them to learn how to live a better life, how to compete with others, how to win in life

how to survive in a cruel world.

i want to be a person to share my knowledge with others so that they dont face any difficulties ...

well i wish i could do that.

[atyclb]

"The language class should be fun and fresh. And importantly, the teachers must understand that each student is different," she said. "Teachers must know how best to develop the potential of each student."

Of course, you can't learn anything if it's not 'fun'. Every lesson at school and university for me was so much fun. If it hadn't been fun, I would have lost concentration and failed.

Maybe the 'fun police' could come in and observe English classes. If the classes are not 'fun', they can make fun police arrests.

The reality is that in Thailand the culture does indeed produce students that learn in a fun environment. It is not 100% but it is a very high%. Unless the student has been exposed to something else he/she is in "fun mode"

[atyclb]

hi, my name is mr. aabid

what i read is correct, but to provide a better education to thai kids you dont need only native speakers. i applied for the job as an english teacher but they rejected saying we need only farang. what is it.

if i have the quality or education and qualification, why cant we teach. teaching thai students to learn and speak proper english is good idea...

from childhood only i wanted to be a good english teacher and give my all knowledge to students, i want them to learn how to live a better life, how to compete with others, how to win in life

how to survive in a cruel world.

i want to be a person to share my knowledge with others so that they dont face any difficulties ...

well i wish i could do that.

Sorry to hear that. I have spoken with Philippine teachers in Thailand that I barely understood, not to say all of them since many do speak English well.

[xthAi76s]

hi, my name is mr. aabid

what i read is correct, but to provide a better education to thai kids you dont need only native speakers. i applied for the job as an english teacher but they rejected saying we need only farang. what is it.

if i have the quality or education and qualification, why cant we teach. teaching thai students to learn and speak proper english is good idea...

from childhood only i wanted to be a good english teacher and give my all knowledge to students, i want them to learn how to live a better life, how to compete with others, how to win in life

how to survive in a cruel world.

i want to be a person to share my knowledge with others so that they dont face any difficulties ...

well i wish i could do that.

Hi, I applaud your effort and sincerity, but, can I ask, are you a native English speaker? I'm sure you might be a decent English instructor even if you are not a native English speaker, but, if I'm honest with you, if I would have my kids learn English, I would prefer someone who 1) is a very good native speaker, 2) has an above average English vocabulary and 3) does not speak with a heavy accent (whether Indian British, British English, American South, Australian dialect, etc).

Of course, there are a limited number of very good English speakers, let alone English instructors. Part of the problem in Thailand and indeed across many parts of the world is that Education in all its facets is not taken seriously enough. Thailand has let in 'English instructors' who 1) were probably just teaching English so they could backpack around the country (which isn't a problem in and of itself but hints at lacking or misplaced motivations to teach), 2) don't speak English particularly well themselves, 3) have very limited vocabularies, and/or 4) speak with rather heavy accents and use extensive colloquialisms which should not be appropriate when teaching students English to be used internationally.

Teaching should be taken more seriously on both the Farang and Thai sides.

[finnomick1]

@hellodolly

Yes but how would this country prosper if the working class could speak English?

Still a relatively inexpensive location yet the back office boom completely passed the country by. Lack of English speaking resources being a major factor! By speaking English maybe that cook or assembly line worker would have other career options?

Our mate Taksin knew it when he said that Thai golf caddies were the best in the world and the country could prosper by exporting them to the world but guess what? None of them can speak English well enough to forge a career overseas.

Thai golf caddies a.k.a. the 19th hole -- don't need to speak any English .....

[swerver]

@hellodolly

Yes but how would this country prosper if the working class could speak English?

Still a relatively inexpensive location yet the back office boom completely passed the country by. Lack of English speaking resources being a major factor! By speaking English maybe that cook or assembly line worker would have other career options?

Our mate Taksin knew it when he said that Thai golf caddies were the best in the world and the country could prosper by exporting them to the world but guess what? None of them can speak English well enough to forge a career overseas.

Thai golf caddies a.k.a. the 19th hole -- don't need to speak any English .....

Why don't you people - Thai and Farang – just forget about English learning by Thais. Based on personal experience, it will never amount to a hell of beans, the kickbacks are not enough (to store in a closet) for the people involved in decision-making.

I was involved in technical training in Asia Minor and the Middle East for 15-year. After completing the Asia Minor contract I was approached by Thai Gov. Education Dept. to setup and train maintenance technicians for offshore work as a salaried employee of the University. By now you may already know the answer.

Shortly before commencing I was informed that the agreement had been cancelled and that a UK technical training company was going to do it. Get the idea? As a salaried employee of the University there was no brown envelope. I informed the people involved in this decision that from my worldwide working the UK company had no experience with the type equipment involved. They had seen my credentials of the equipment manufacturing factory training courses attended in addition to several years working with the equipment. None of this made any difference to the people with the $$$$$$$$$$$$ signs in front of their eyes. I warned them that in time it could turnout into a disaster. I'm not a clairvoyant, but it did when a Typhoon hit the Gulf of Siam, the rest is history. Thai History that is.

I went back on another contract in the Middle East. All my technical training instruction conducted started with 2-year English - Technical English - while in the Middle East I had come in contact with a UN Language Specialist setting up language training in the Middle East. Charlie and I had gone into detailed conversation about language training requirements for technical people. He fully understood that Conversational English is totally worthless in Technical Training, and had material produced by me in his possession. He retired from the UN and got himself a job in Thailand at the University teaching Technical English. Towards completion of the first group I was approached, I was retiring, I was again to work as salaried University employee doing the same as ten-year before. I told Charlie, okay with me, will see you in Songkla after I retire and come to Thailand.

After retiring and arriving in BKK tried to contact Charlie (this was before the proverbial Mobile Phones) could not locate him. Then one evening going out to eat when I walked in Pisano Restaurant, there was Charlie feeding his face. First thing out his mouth, "No need to go to Songkla, I'm laid off, Parliament has declared no foreigners can teach Thais". Didn't bother me because really after working all over the world for fifty years I really was looking forward to retire. A year or so later I was approached again, Parliament had changed its mind, and they needed foreigners, especially technical orientated foreign instructors. In Holland we have a saying "3-keer is scheepsrech" that means when you are out at sea in a storm and you try 3-times to get into port and have no luck, go back out at sea and ride out the storm. I had been screwed by Thailand 3-times and that was it. Have been retired ever since leaving the Thais at their own devices.

[steven100]

I do not think great effort needs to be spent on teaching kids to speak English. I think the time needs to be spent on teaching them to read and understand written english and to write it to some extent. The focus should be on reading.

Spoken english is very hard to learn without exposure to good spoken english constantly.

The ability to read English enables access to a wide world of material as it is one of the international languages for business and science.

While I respect your opinion harrry, I have to disagree .... it's no good being able to read english unless it can be pronounced in a fashion that most can understand. If a thai has a job in the hospitality industry which account for tourism also , it won't assist him if he can only read ... he needs to be able speak english confidently and have a good understanding of what the meaning of his spoken sentence entails ..

IMO.:jap:

[tamsom]

Plato and some other bright thinkers believed that you are who you are by the time you are 6 years old. This lady has got it right. English is the language of science. The Kingdom had many languages before that have disappeared through TV etc. The lack of good education/ambition has become a stone in a shoe where many people wear nothing or sandals. Local fiefdoms are the impediment. Many immigrants to the Kingdom would love to teach English for a nominal sum, but the work permit is an obstacle, hence the paper pushers thrive on perceived power. When will people stop using racist terms on this forum? I am not a piece of fruit! At least a third of the people in the Kingdom have another language as their Mother tongue=this is a provable fact. Therefore, Thai is learned as a written language like English can be. Adios.

[fabianfred]

"We must start with real usage of speaking, reading and writing the language in daily life first. Grammar can come later," Saowalak said.

Wow. Finally a Thai teacher that gets it... she should be head of the Ministry of Education.... Because they really DON'T get it

That's the way bar-girls learn it......nothing wrong with pigeon English....for starters..

[fabianfred]

As we know thai sentences are often back-to-front compared to English. Questions are at the end instead of beginning of a sentence....etc.

But we can still understand the meaning if someone says... "this is what?" instead of 'what is this?'...... "you go where?' instead of 'where you go?'

Meaning is more important than correct sentence structure....in conversation.

Also cut out all those silly multi-choice questions, and get them to write down answers from their own understanding. I distantly remember from school we used to have Comprehension tests....they need those here from the beginning.

[housepainter]

Three years is defined as being long term.

That's clear.

Now take a native speaker - add the country of your choice - and refer to the cultural mores of that country. I'll cross the pond and talk about the Mall, burgers, coffee, soccer, the space programme, baseball and Disney Land.

All of which does not translate at all to Thai culture.

This place is third world and you can't expect fly in teachers to refer to the price of rice, keeping a buffalo or riding 4 to a motorcycle.

Even the so called expert travels the globe to deliver her work. Less demand at home I expect.

Fine words.

Fine.

Next.

Edited December 21, 2011 by housepainter

[rockderk]

"If we implement them here, big changes should be seen in three years," she added.

Dream on, lady.

[hellodolly]

Good stuff but it's only stating the obvious.

Many people have said exactly the same thing for years but are just ignored, so I can't see this lady having any more luck.

Simple facts are that speaking English is far more valid than reading and writing it (although I agree best to do both) and you do not use grammar when you speak. The obsession with teaching grammar "first and foremost" is a travesty really. We know why they do it, becasue the teachers can teach it from books in rote style which means they can get away with limited ability themselves.

You cannot teach spoken English if the teachers cannot speak it themselves. The alternative of "native speaking" teachers is not an option in the places it is needed most i.e. government schools, probably in the sticks due to the financial restraints. In 14 years i have never met ONE Thai teacher fully proficient to be teaching English as a spoken language.

A good post, but you do not use Grammar when you speak? How does that work?

Know I dont.

As you can planley see a understanding of the language is more important.

When I first came to Thailand I went to a highly regarded school here in Chiang Mai to learn Thai.

I signed up for the beginners class. I was quickly disillusioned when I found out they were trying to teach grammar in a language I did not know how to speak.

Needless to say I did not learn Thai.

I still do not speak Thai but I do have a smattering of ability I learned from private lessons.

The first thing my teacher did was concentrate on pronouncing common parts of the words. Then she tought me some words and we concentrated on pronouncing those words properly. The next step was understanding them and the grammar to use them .

The point is until I could understand certain words grammar was useless.

I still feel that English is a over rated subject for the vast majority of Thais. Here in Chiang Mai I see non English speaking Thais selling their goods to English only speaking Farongs.

When all is said and done the percentage of the population that will need English is very small. The percentage of the Thai population that will need mathematics is very large. The percentage of the Thai population that will benefit from the ability to use reason is very large.

Maybe some of us English speaking people who choose to call Thailand home should look at fitting in rather than changing it.

Edited December 22, 2011 by hellodolly

[oevna]

"Language classes must focus on content relevant to learners' daily lives. The content must be practical," she said.

This is so true, and at the risk of sounding crass, the proof is in the bars in the major tourist areas.

The average Thai bar girl speaks passable English much better than other Thais in almost any other sector of the population that I have met, because the content of their conversations with their customers is relevant to their daily lives, and they use it almost every day. I wouldn't expect them to be able to recite Shakespeare, and I have certainly met upper-class Thais with much higher English fluency and literacy, but in my experience they are rare.

[oevna]

Good stuff but it's only stating the obvious.

Many people have said exactly the same thing for years but are just ignored, so I can't see this lady having any more luck.

Simple facts are that speaking English is far more valid than reading and writing it (although I agree best to do both) and you do not use grammar when you speak. The obsession with teaching grammar "first and foremost" is a travesty really. We know why they do it, becasue the teachers can teach it from books in rote style which means they can get away with limited ability themselves.

You cannot teach spoken English if the teachers cannot speak it themselves. The alternative of "native speaking" teachers is not an option in the places it is needed most i.e. government schools, probably in the sticks due to the financial restraints. In 14 years i have never met ONE Thai teacher fully proficient to be teaching English as a spoken language.

In general I agree with your statements, except for one of them: you certainly do use grammar when you speak.

I think you are confusing grammar with formal written language. Written language differs from spoken language in that it needs to be more precise, because it lacks the context of the situation that fills in what is left out in spoken language.

An example of grammar in spoken language can be seen in a sentence as simple as "I am going to him." I realize that this is "written" here in my reply, but bear with me and imagine yourself speaking this sentence.

Now if you said "he is going to me," it would have a very different meaning, but the two sentences contain the same words. The difference between them is the grammar.

• I, me (first person singular pronoun, differing by case)
  
• am, is (both forms of the verb "to be" used as an auxiliary verb)
  
• going (present continuous form of the verb "to go")
  
• to (preposition)
  
• him, he (third person singular masculine pronoun, also differing by case, just like "I" and "me")
  

And of course the word order is different, switching "me" with "he." Native English speakers do all of this unconsciously when we speak, and much more, but it is still grammar. You can tell when someone gets it wrong, such as saying "him nice guy" (getting the case of the pronoun wrong, leaving out auxiliary verbs and articles, etc.). This is a common sort of mistake that I have heard in Thailand. It occurs because Thai language lacks true articles, and lacks case and auxiliary verbs, among other things (but has grammatical features that English lacks, such as classifiers).

This was one of the biggest stumbling blocks of my former students in Thailand, and getting it right only comes with practice, so that it just sounds right. Some manage to memorize the rules, but I find them often misspeaking and then correcting themselves, because they are still not quite fluent, so they are mentally translating from Thai to English when they speak.

Edited December 22, 2011 by oevna

[anterian]

The Thai language lacks precision, in fact where this is needed they often borrow English words, but with a Thai accent.

Except in simple matters Thais often cannot seem to understand each other, "say again" is probably one of the most common responses in a Thai conversation.

English has multiple redundancy in its usage; inverted, upside down, head over heels, arse over tit, topsy turvy, turned over, flipped, are all related concepts yet with subtle differences, try to explain this to a Thai

As others have already said, before Thais can learn a second language they need to sort their own out first. Particularly their abominable script.

[oevna]

The Thai language lacks precision, in fact where this is needed they often borrow English words, but with a Thai accent.

Except in simple matters Thais often cannot seem to understand each other, "say again" is probably one of the most common responses in a Thai conversation.

English has multiple redundancy in its usage; inverted, upside down, head over heels, arse over tit, topsy turvy, turned over, flipped, are all related concepts yet with subtle differences, try to explain this to a Thai

As others have already said, before Thais can learn a second language they need to sort their own out first. Particularly their abominable script.

This has not been my experience, as a native English speaker who has learned to speak, read and write Thai. Thai is as precise as English. Its script is actually much more precise than the English use of the Roman script. As you pointed out, it lacks much of the grammatical redundancy of English (and other inflected languages). The same could be said about Chinese. That's not the same as being imprecise.

Also, there are formal versions of most of the English loan words that you are referring to. They are usually borrowed from Sanskrit, Pali or Khmer, much the way English has borrowed from French, Latin and Greek for most of its higher vocabulary. All languages that borrow words from other languages impose their phonetics on the loan words, including English. Most of the foreign words that English has borrowed are pronounced using English phonetics (for example, the final "i" in the word "alumni" is not pronounced like the English word "eye" in its original Latin pronunciation; it is pronounced closer to "a-loom-nee"). Even a word like rendezvous, which we attempt to pronounce faithfully to its French origin, is not pronounced by English speakers exactly the way the French would say it.

The issue you are referring to is most likely due to several factors, the biggest of which are the very large grammatical and phonetic differences between Thai and English, combined with the fact that most Thais don't have many opportunities to practice speaking English with fluent speakers.

Consider the way many Western expats butcher the Thai language (some of whom have been living in Thailand for many years) when they are forced to try to communicate in Thai.

EDIT -- I see that by "redundancy" you were not referring to grammatical redundancy, which would have actually been a very insightful observation. But alas, you were making the bold statement that Thai lacks folksy idioms for expressing thoughts in subtly different ways. You are sorely mistaken! Just because the expression "arse over tit" wouldn't translate well into Thai doesn't mean that they don't have plenty of expressions for similar concepts, most of which wouldn't translate well into English. They are different languages. Unless you are fluent in both, of course you will be biased towards your mother tongue.

Edited December 22, 2011 by oevna

[diehard60]

This is good and it is about time. But one thing is missing which is you must have qualified teachers. Which there is not enough.

[xthAi76s]

The Thai language lacks precision, in fact where this is needed they often borrow English words, but with a Thai accent.

Except in simple matters Thais often cannot seem to understand each other, "say again" is probably one of the most common responses in a Thai conversation.

English has multiple redundancy in its usage; inverted, upside down, head over heels, arse over tit, topsy turvy, turned over, flipped, are all related concepts yet with subtle differences, try to explain this to a Thai

As others have already said, before Thais can learn a second language they need to sort their own out first. Particularly their abominable script.

This has not been my experience, as a native English speaker who has learned to speak, read and write Thai. Thai is as precise as English. Its script is actually much more precise than the English use of the Roman script. As you pointed out, it lacks much of the grammatical redundancy of English (and other inflected languages). The same could be said about Chinese. That's not the same as being imprecise.

Also, there are formal versions of most of the English loan words that you are referring to. They are usually borrowed from Sanskrit, Pali or Khmer, much the way English has borrowed from French, Latin and Greek for most of its higher vocabulary. All languages that borrow words from other languages impose their phonetics on the loan words, including English. Most of the foreign words that English has borrowed are pronounced using English phonetics (for example, the final "i" in the word "alumni" is not pronounced like the English word "eye" in its original Latin pronunciation; it is pronounced closer to "a-loom-nee"). Even a word like rendezvous, which we attempt to pronounce faithfully to its French origin, is not pronounced by English speakers exactly the way the French would say it.

The issue you are referring to is most likely due to several factors, the biggest of which are the very large grammatical and phonetic differences between Thai and English, combined with the fact that most Thais don't have many opportunities to practice speaking English with fluent speakers.

Consider the way many Western expats butcher the Thai language (some of whom have been living in Thailand for many years) when they are forced to try to communicate in Thai.

EDIT -- I see that by "redundancy" you were actually not referring to grammatical redundancy, which would have actually been a very insightful observation. But alas, you were making the bold statement that Thai lacks folksy idioms for expressing thoughts in subtly different ways. You are sorely mistaken! Just because the expression "arse over tit" wouldn't translate well into Thai doesn't mean that they don't have plenty of expressions for similar concepts, most of which wouldn't translate well into English. They are different languages. Unless you are fluent in both, of course you will be biased towards your mother tongue.

This is an interesting reply. I don't know enough about linguistics to feel confidently one way or the other about the precision or lack-thereof of Thai (as compared to English), but I do find it fascinating.

Can you tell me if you can agree that we can work from a framework that all languages are not equally suited to all tasks? If so, then we can at least move beyond language equality. I will argue (for the sake of intelligent discussion) that perhaps Thai is not as well suited to efficient precision of meaning construction in a wide range of academic topics as is English.

Having said that, what drives a language to adopt words to express more complex thought? I would suspect that the happenings in a particular culture play a large part in driving this process. Is it possible that since there have not been huge modern academic/philosophical/scientific/humanitarian movements in Thai culture Thai language has not really had a need to many vocabularies or other language structures to describe increasingly complex meaning? I mean absolutely no disrespect here, but if you had a nation comprised overwhelmingly of simple laborers and an educational system that did not encourage individual thought (if you do agree with this, of course), would the average person be interested/capable of discussing/understanding complex topics?

Like another poster, I have witnessed Thais, both educated (post graduate) and not so educated, speaking Thai and often having difficulty developing meaning easily. It's almost more like they are helping each other to develop the meaning of what they are saying. It's hard to explain... But, and I'm getting some of this from my wife as my Thai ability is almost nil, it's almost as though they are very painfully slowly developing the meaning by talking around things, describing things with ever more words giving each time to take in the meaning as it would seem that much of the meaning involves context. To me, a language that involves building context all the time is possibly not as efficient as one which either does not need context or can squeeze more meaning into words that quickly express complex or contextual meaning...

Anyway, language is such a complex topic.

I always thought it was interesting the way meaning is created with some words in Thai

drinking water - naam plao

fish sauce - naam plaa -- literally: fish water

flood waters - naam tooum -- literally: water everywhere, or too much water

ice - naam kairng

Edited December 22, 2011 by ThailandMan

[oevna]

All languages are roughly equal at expressing the types of complex thoughts about common human experience (interpersonal relationships, direct experience of the physical world, sensory perception, etc.). Not all languages have 100% overlap with other languages in the area of technical vocabulary. So if a language lacks the vocabulary to discuss certain technical subjects, then people have to use descriptive language. However, much technical vocabulary actually exists in Thai. When someone doesn't know the correct vocabulary, even if it exists, they will also have to resort to descriptive language.

I see this occasionally in my field of work, which is computer software. My mother (who is a medical doctor and is very well-educated and intelligent) will sometimes have questions for me about issues she is having with software, but she does not have the vocabulary to express her thoughts succinctly, so she will stumble about using descriptive language. Eventually we will get to the heart of the matter, and I'll understand what she's asking.

Edited December 22, 2011 by oevna

[xthAi76s]

All languages are roughly equal at expressing the types of complex thoughts that are common to all of humanity (inerpersonal relationships, direct experience of the physical world, sensory perception, etc.). Not all languages have 100% overlap with other languages in the area of technical vocabulary. So if a language lacks the vocabulary to discuss certain technical subjects, then people have to use descriptive language. However, much technical vocabulary actually exists in Thai. When someone doesn't know the correct vocabulary, even if it exists, they will also have to resort to descriptive language.

I see this occasionally in my field of work, which is computer software. My mother (who is a medical doctor and is very well-educated and intelligent) will sometimes have questions for me about issues she is having with software, but she does not have the vocabulary to express her thoughts succinctly, so she will stumble about using descriptive language. Eventually we will get to the heart of the matter, and I'll understand what she's asking.

So, if your experiences reflect reality, what most of us are seeing in normal day-to-day with Thais is likely that the average level of education here is perhaps lower than is ours. This would make sense as most Thais or foreigners are not frequently discussing very complex topics, say, while ordering a som tom for lunch. It reflects the news papers and media which almost all communicate in super basic, low level Thai as reported to me by my wife (Thai native, under grad and grad in US and Ivy league) ...

Thanks for the reply

Edited December 22, 2011 by ThailandMan

[trevorg]

I have found that my students in a poor public high school know way way more grammar and reading/writing skills and practically NO speaking skills. I am told that this is partially because the Thai govt doess annual WRITTEN tests and the reesults impact funding, supplies, number of teachers etc. So OF COURSE the teachers teach for the test because if they concentrate on speaking it would mean not so much time on grammar and then lower test scores. So that is part of the problem.

The other big problem that i see is the Thai english teachers don't really teach much IN ENGLISH. Most of them have very very limited exposure to native speakers and get very little practice themselves in speaking English.

There are tons of older retired expats living all over Thailand that are bored to death and IF IF it were easier to do I think many of them would be happy to volunteer to teach a day or two a week. The first thing though is for the schools to be able to provide x number of work permits for these people. The idea that you need a work permit to volunteer to help out a bunch of kids for NO PAY is not helping. Many if not most of the public schools in rural areas can NOT afford to hire a native english speaker so they have NONE.

If you truly want to help some thai kids learn english why not stop by a local public high school and ask to talk to the head of the English dept and see if they might be able to pull some strings to help you volunteer without any work permit hassles. ...you might be pleasantly surprised. Do not expect them to PAY you as they have very little money. In fact over time you will likely find that YOU will subsidize the kids a bit by buying supplies etc with YOUR money.

The fact is the students will be very very shy around a farang espeicaly in the beginning...when i first taught out in teh sticks i was the FIRST farang most of the students had ever spoken to...so be prepared to get stared at a lot and have them hang on your every word like you are some kind of movie star. My kids are super polite and underneath their shy fears they do seem to want to see if they can speak and understand some english. You won't change the world but you may well be able to help a few kids learn spoken english and that may in turn mean a better job for them in the future.

i commend you for your post and optimistic solutions, but the WP thing is a huge issue that needs resolving!

[oevna]

All languages are roughly equal at expressing the types of complex thoughts that are common to all of humanity (inerpersonal relationships, direct experience of the physical world, sensory perception, etc.). Not all languages have 100% overlap with other languages in the area of technical vocabulary. So if a language lacks the vocabulary to discuss certain technical subjects, then people have to use descriptive language. However, much technical vocabulary actually exists in Thai. When someone doesn't know the correct vocabulary, even if it exists, they will also have to resort to descriptive language.

I see this occasionally in my field of work, which is computer software. My mother (who is a medical doctor and is very well-educated and intelligent) will sometimes have questions for me about issues she is having with software, but she does not have the vocabulary to express her thoughts succinctly, so she will stumble about using descriptive language. Eventually we will get to the heart of the matter, and I'll understand what she's asking.

So, if your experiences reflect reality, what most of us are seeing in normal day-to-day with Thais is likely that the average level of education here is perhaps lower than is ours. This would make sense as most Thais or foreigners are not frequently discussing very complex topics, say, while ordering a som tom for lunch. It reflects the news papers and media which almost all communicate in super basic, low level Thai as reported to me by my wife (Thai native, under grad and grad in US and Ivy league) ...

Thanks for the reply

How is conversation with your wife, who is well-educated? How does it compare with conversations with less educated Thais?

Also, just to make sure we're comparing apples to apples, are you talking about your observations of Thais speaking Thai together? If so, are you fluent in Thai? If they are speaking English, could you do better holding an equally technical conversation in Thai?

Just some things to think about. Also, since you seem to have a genuine interest in the subject, you might enjoy a book called The Language Instinct, by Steven Pinker. Also a good read is The Power of Babel, by John McWhorter. Fascinating stuff!

[visions]

Leaving grammer until later....is a really stupid idea!!!! How can you teach English WITHOUT learning to use it correctly? This is why ESL students at the college-level are having a hard time learning English as we speak.<div>And just because you are a retired english speaker DOES NOT qualify you as a certified, qualified teacher of English.<br><div><br></div></div>

I guess your kids at age 1 year were given a book of grammar rules???? Kids learn the language from listen, look and repeat, nothing to do with Grammar except its use, correct or otherwise, by the parents and siblings. Even 1st year (5years) students are NOT taught grammar but have a reasonable grasp of basic English and its grammatical use.....all from listen, look , and repeat. No books involved.

[trevorg]

The Thai language lacks precision, in fact where this is needed they often borrow English words, but with a Thai accent.

Except in simple matters Thais often cannot seem to understand each other, "say again" is probably one of the most common responses in a Thai conversation.

English has multiple redundancy in its usage; inverted, upside down, head over heels, arse over tit, topsy turvy, turned over, flipped, are all related concepts yet with subtle differences, try to explain this to a Thai

As others have already said, before Thais can learn a second language they need to sort their own out first. Particularly their abominable script.

i assume you're talking about Love!

[xthAi76s]

All languages are roughly equal at expressing the types of complex thoughts that are common to all of humanity (inerpersonal relationships, direct experience of the physical world, sensory perception, etc.). Not all languages have 100% overlap with other languages in the area of technical vocabulary. So if a language lacks the vocabulary to discuss certain technical subjects, then people have to use descriptive language. However, much technical vocabulary actually exists in Thai. When someone doesn't know the correct vocabulary, even if it exists, they will also have to resort to descriptive language.

I see this occasionally in my field of work, which is computer software. My mother (who is a medical doctor and is very well-educated and intelligent) will sometimes have questions for me about issues she is having with software, but she does not have the vocabulary to express her thoughts succinctly, so she will stumble about using descriptive language. Eventually we will get to the heart of the matter, and I'll understand what she's asking.

So, if your experiences reflect reality, what most of us are seeing in normal day-to-day with Thais is likely that the average level of education here is perhaps lower than is ours. This would make sense as most Thais or foreigners are not frequently discussing very complex topics, say, while ordering a som tom for lunch. It reflects the news papers and media which almost all communicate in super basic, low level Thai as reported to me by my wife (Thai native, under grad and grad in US and Ivy league) ...

Thanks for the reply

How is conversation with your wife, who is well-educated? How does it compare with conversations with less educated Thais?

Also, just to make sure we're comparing apples to apples, are you talking about your observations of Thais speaking Thai together? If so, are you fluent in Thai? If they are speaking English, could you do better holding an equally technical conversation in Thai?

Just some things to think about. Also, since you seem to have a genuine interest in the subject, you might enjoy a book called The Language Instinct, by Steven Pinker. Also a good read is The Power of Babel, by John McWhorter. Fascinating stuff!

Conversation with my wife reflects the constant struggles of marriage! Just kidding, of course.

My wife and I like to think we are uncommon anyway. I come from a very technical background and my wife is more of a serious academic. We don't much like casual 'small talk'. We are direct and want to express ourselves efficiently at all times. Makes for pretty boring conversationalists, I'm afraid. So, by those standards I judge others. Try as I might to factor our characteristics into (or out of) my opinions of others communication styles, I can only be biased...

With all that in mind, I tend to find that average people (whatever that means) don't express themselves well. This is true for Thais and everyone else. As for more highly educated Thais, I must rely on my wife as to impressions of their communication patterns when speaking Thai as I don't understand Thai with any fluency. What I have noticed are certain patterns of English communication by native speakers of Thai who speak English as a second or third language. Aside from the obvious, which is that they are not native speakers, and giving the benefit of the doubt in this regard, I almost always find that they construct meaning more inefficiently than native English speakers. I coupled this with the fact that native Thai speakers frequently tell my wife that she speaks very precisely ('in a non-Thai' manner) which she attributes to communication patterns/technique she learned in the West during her learning of English... I have another friend who speaks native Chinese and another native Japanese. They are both fluent in English and people in their respective countries, China and Japan, express to them similar compliments.

As for whether I could express myself as well in Thai as I do in English, no, not currently, but I have a feeling that when I am able to speak Thai, I will no doubt be able to 'get to the point' so-to-speak much more quickly than an average Thai.

EDIT: I'll check out the titles you suggest!

Edited December 22, 2011 by ThailandMan

[Grumbles]

I do not think great effort needs to be spent on teaching kids to speak English. I think the time needs to be spent on teaching them to read and understand written english and to write it to some extent. The focus should be on reading.

Spoken english is very hard to learn without exposure to good spoken english constantly.

The ability to read English enables access to a wide world of material as it is one of the international languages for business and science.

I think that the 4 skills are interdependent on each other to a certain degree, but the speaking is slightly more important. I have several students who if you ask them a question like " What did you do on the weekend?" they can answer the question on paper, but they have difficulty in answering verbally.

One of the problems they have is that they are afraid of making a mistake, so they say nothing.

I am finding that if you can get them over that hurdle, they start to open up and talk more, which leads to an overall improvement.

[lungmi]

I'm a retired professional teacher for German and Roman languages. I'm not a native English speaker, but English is the second language for university graduates in Germany.

I'm happy to teach how to teach languages in a Hill Tribes School, far away from the "prescriptions" of an incompetent administration.

Socially engaged teachers, Hmong and Karen teachers included. My kindergarden children speak better English than I speak Hmong. I have to learn a lot from them.