Beware Of Using Your Credit Card At Minor Company Hotels And Rest.

[gguy]

Just a warning about the Minor company, I ate at one of their rest. and requested my credit card bill in baht. They issued me a CC bill with the baht converted to USD at a very bad exchange rate. I lost about 5% of the bill due to the lousy exchange rate.

They refused to reverse the transaction.

Minor owns Sizzler, Pizza Co., and a whole lot of other rest. and hotels in Thailand.

[Crossy]

You should have refused to sign and asked to see the manager, but to be honest unless it was a massive bill the loss would be small compared with the hassle.

The practice of always selecting the home currency conversion rather than asking the customer which currency he wants to be charged in seems widespread, it's certainly not limited to one or two groups or outlets.

I suspect it's because many staff are not fully trained in what to do with foreign cards and just select the default (which appears to be home currency), at least an increasing number of places are asking for the PIN on a chip and pin transaction rather than just hitting 'pin bypass'.

Do note that the outlet gets the same amount of Baht whatever you select, it's VISA or Mastercard who make the $$ on their poor exchange rate.

[gguy]

You should have refused to sign and asked to see the manager, but to be honest unless it was a massive bill the loss would be small compared with the hassle.

The practice of always selecting the home currency conversion rather than asking the customer which currency he wants to be charged in seems widespread, it's certainly not limited to one or two groups or outlets.

I suspect it's because many staff are not fully trained in what to do with foreign cards and just select the default (which appears to be home currency), at least an increasing number of places are asking for the PIN on a chip and pin transaction rather than just hitting 'pin bypass'.

Do note that the outlet gets the same amount of Baht whatever you select, it's VISA or Mastercard who make the $$ on their poor exchange rate.

I did talk to the manager. He refused to reverse and redo the transaction.

[Sam Drucker]

So (assuming you were using a US-based credit card) if they had charged you in Thai baht, you would have been charged a foreign transaction fee for that, wouldn't you? So isn't it more or less an even wash either way using a foreign credit card?

I think the bigger problem here is using credit cards, and we all know that merchants (especially hotels) in Thailand are more prone to adding a surcharge to the bill to cover their credit card merchant fees (compared to America, where they're hidden.)

Enough about the credit cards . . . how was the meal?

[impulse]

Shoot, any time I do a small international transaction and only get hit with only 5% I consider it a win.

Most places I've been (other countries in Asia) give me a crappy exchange rate, then add 4-5% to the cash bill just to accept the card, then I check my statement and my bank itself adds $2-5 or so for a foreign transaction fee.

I'm just glad they don't clone my card and max it out before I get home that night.

[chris2004]

I'm sorry but who uses a credit card for a small item like a meal. You are just asking for trouble and/or a scam. Use cash. I would never use my credit card in Thailand except for an emergency.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

So (assuming you were using a US-based credit card) if they had charged you in Thai baht, you would have been charged a foreign transaction fee for that, wouldn't you? So isn't it more or less an even wash either way using a foreign credit card?

I think the bigger problem here is using credit cards, and we all know that merchants (especially hotels) in Thailand are more prone to adding a surcharge to the bill to cover their credit card merchant fees (compared to America, where they're hidden.)

Your assumption above is just flat wrong...

The way foreign currency fees from U.S. banks are structured these days... if a person's U.S. bank does charge such a fees, it's going to be imposed on any purchase made in Thailand (or any other foreign country), regardless of whether that foreign country charge is done in the local currency or U.S. $.

The best thing, of course, is to use U.S. bank cards that don't charge any foreign currency fee, such as those from Charles Schwab Bank, State Farm Bank or Capital One Bank, among others.

But if someone's using a card that does have such fees, accepting ripoff Dynamic Currency Conversion billing -- which usually results in a 4% or so extra charge on the transaction -- in hopes of avoiding your home bank's foreign currency fee is a false hope. More than likely, you'll simply end up being overcharged for both.

Read the following post and the several after it in this following thread for an explanation of why:

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

By the way, under the supposed rules for merchants who want to use Dynamic Currency Conversion, the customer is SUPPOSED to be given a CHOICE of which currency they want their transaction rung up in... in this case... Thai baht or your home bank card's currency.

More than likely, the DCC transaction slip you received probably has in small print some kind of notice saying you've been given a choice between currencies and have chosen the one used for the slip. If the merchant doesn't give you a choice, then they're violating the credit/bank card network rules for how such things are supposed to be handled.

I had a similar experience with this lately, and a discussion of it is recounted in a TV thread here on banking issues for Americans in Thailand... See what happened with that episode here:

In my case, they presented me with a DCC slip without giving me any choice.... I objected and asked them to re-ring the transaction in baht. They said they couldn't and came up with all kinds of other false claims... And after about a half hour of arguing, a finance person from the hotel involved came and voided the original DCC slip, and re-rang the purchase in baht.

If I encountered a merchant who did like above and then refused to re-ring the transaction and void the wrong DCC slip, I'd refuse the sign the transaction slip... And/or, I'd read the slip to see if it included language about me being required to be given a choice of currencies...and if I wasn't, I'd write on that copy that I wasn't given any choice and keep that copy, and then I'd then dispute the charge later with my card card company as being for the wrong billing amount.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The practice of always selecting the home currency conversion rather than asking the customer which currency he wants to be charged in seems widespread, it's certainly not limited to one or two groups or outlets.

BTW, I don't know how you come to the above conclusion...

I use my U.S. banks cards for pretty much all my purchases here in Thailand, and have for years -- hotels, restaurants, department stores, grocery stores, hospitals, etc. And 99% of the time, the transactions are rung up in Thai baht without me being asked or having to do a thing...

But in about 1% of the transactions, you get merchants like the one involved in this thread or the one in my episode referenced above. They don't ask. They ring up in DCC. And then they try to make it virtually impossible for the customer to get them to reverse the charge and correctly ring up the transaction in the currency you have requested, being Thai baht.

Also, on the DCC slip I got recently, it had tiny text language specifically saying that Dynamic Currency Conversion done by merchants "is not associated with or endorsed by VISA." So actually, I believe that most of the revenue gain achieved from such transactions is going to either the merchant and/or their Thai processing bank.

My recent problem happened to be with the Pullman Bangkok King Power Hotel, King Power being an entity well known for its questionable consumer practices in other areas...

As for the OP here, all I can add is, TV members in Pattaya have often reported that the Sizzler branches there often try to do this same kind of DCC fraud.... Though when I've eaten at Sizzlers in Bangkok and used my U.S. bank cards, I've never had such a problem here.

[tomallison]

I'm sorry but who uses a credit card for a small item like a meal. You are just asking for trouble and/or a scam. Use cash. I would never use my credit card in Thailand except for an emergency.

Excellent strategy.

[Godfree]

It's not just Thailand. I got hit for $20.00 by NAB, my Australian bank, for withdrawing $500 from a local ATM.

Banks and credit card companies have become predatory.

[Soboringtochooseaname]

I'm sorry but who uses a credit card for a small item like a meal. You are just asking for trouble and/or a scam. Use cash. I would never use my credit card in Thailand except for an emergency.

EXACTLY !

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It's pretty simple...

In many countries, your home country bank debit and credit cards often will charge an extra fee -- foreign currency fee or something similarly named -- when you go to use that card in another country, any other country... General range is often 2-4% of the ATM withdrawal amount or purchase amount. Some banks also add an additional flat fee per withdrawal for foreign ATM withdrawals, so it ends up being an extra $X per withdrawal plus X% of the withdrawal amount in added fees.

The simple solution, when traveling away from one's home country, is to choose and use a home country bank card that charges no foreign currency fees, or if that's not possible, at least a minimal FCF of 1% or so.

For U.S. folks, there are plenty of no FCF bank cards available. There are a few available to Brits.... For other countries' banks, YMMV.

But lots of folks never even are aware their home banks charge such fees, until they travel abroad and suddenly are rudely surprised by a boatload of fees. And lots more folks never bother to check whether no FCF bank cards are available thru banks in their home country. Just because your current bank charges such fees doesn't necessarily mean ALL the banks available to you do the same.

[Naam]

GOODNESS GRACIOUS! an additional 5% on a meal ticket is indeed a devastating financial blow

[manarak]

I pay everything in cash.

Paying by credit card in another country & currency is just asking for trouble.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

GOODNESS GRACIOUS! an additional 5% on a meal ticket is indeed a devastating financial blow

Do you voluntarily pay 5% extra for everything you purchase, without getting anything of value in return??? And we're not talking about tips or service charges here... Just the underlying item(s) purchased?

Go to Central Department store and they ring up a 2000 baht shelf price item purchase, and you say NAH.... 2000 baht isn't enough... I want to pay you 2100 baht instead. You doing that regularly, huh???

[nong38]

A couple of years ago I travelled down to Koh Chang for a weeks holiday, stayed at I think it was the VJ Residence, paid for the week with my debit card. On the way home stopped for 3 nights in Pattaya and checked my bank account, the residence had charged me 3 times, got the g/f to ring, the manager had gone for a walk, call back, it was now friday afternoon. Call back on monday when the bank is open and they would check. The money was sent to my g.f's bank for us to collect but it does make you wonder if i had not checked it until back in the UK it would have been very difficult to get a refund I think. Since that experience, I never bring a credit card here and always pay cash and I did get it all back in case anyone was thinking the g/f might have done a runner!

[HerbalEd]

I'm sorry but who uses a credit card for a small item like a meal. You are just asking for trouble and/or a scam. Use cash. I would never use my credit card in Thailand except for an emergency.

Looks like you don't have to keep records of meal expenses for tax/business purposes. Yeah, you can pay cash and deal with a broad array of paper receipts, but that's a lot of time and trouble when compared to a monthly credit/debit card statement .... esp. if that statement is electronic.

Edited January 2, 2012 by HerbalEd

[HerbalEd]

GOODNESS GRACIOUS! an additional 5% on a meal ticket is indeed a devastating financial blow

Do you voluntarily pay 5% extra for everything you purchase, without getting anything of value in return??? And we're not talking about tips or service charges here... Just the underlying item(s) purchased?

Go to Central Department store and they ring up a 2000 baht shelf price item purchase, and you say NAH.... 2000 baht isn't enough... I want to pay you 2100 baht instead. You doing that regularly, huh???

My time is more valuable than a bit of money. But if you're one of those "but, it's the principle" type of persons, then feel free to spend a lot of time for a little money.

[HerbalEd]

I pay everything in cash.

Paying by credit card in another country & currency is just asking for trouble.

What do you do when you want to purchase something costing several hundreds or thousands of dollars? Many people would say carrying that kind of cash is "asking for trouble." Each to his/her own .... but I've been using credit/debit cards all over the world for many years ... including many countries in South America and Asia .... and I have never had a problem. Having traveled in Brazil and lived in Colombia, I wish I could say the same about cash.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There certainly can be good value and benefit in using credit cards for purchases in Thailand...depending on what particular card one is using...

Thai bank credit cards have the advantage of no foreign currency fee charges. But they have the significant disadvantage of holding the cardholder liable for ALL fraudulent charges up to their credit limit prior to the time the cardholder reports the card stolen to their bank.

U.S. bank credit cards have several advantages, including a $50 limit on liability for fraudulent charges and the legal ability to dispute/not pay for a purchase in the event something is defective and the merchant won't resolve the problem.

Many also have the disadvantage of charging 2-4% in foreign currency fees on purchases made abroad... But, there are still plenty of U.S. issued credit cards that have all the advantages mentioned above, but charge NO foreign currency fee. So those end up being the best of both worlds.

And as I said above, about 99% of the time, at least around BKK, you'll never run into DCC as an issue. And most of the time, in those rare instances when it becomes a problem, it usually can be resolved with a little persistence.

[brizzle]

Speaking from personal experience I have found that the DCC scam is indeed alive and well in Thailand and beyond.

I have had this trick played on me on numerous occasions from hotels and private hospitals here in Thailand to Hong Kong Disney land and back....so much in fact that I now make a point to stipulate when paying my account that I want my bill in the local currency.

[manarak]

I pay everything in cash.

Paying by credit card in another country & currency is just asking for trouble.

What do you do when you want to purchase something costing several hundreds or thousands of dollars? Many people would say carrying that kind of cash is "asking for trouble." Each to his/her own .... but I've been using credit/debit cards all over the world for many years ... including many countries in South America and Asia .... and I have never had a problem. Having traveled in Brazil and lived in Colombia, I wish I could say the same about cash.

Up to around a couple thousand dollars cash is no problem.

If nobody knows the amount of cash one is carrying, it can't be "asking for trouble".

Above that, I will pay either by wire or check.

I use my credit card mostly to withdraw cash, book flights and hotels on trusted websites or at reputable shops.

[Naam]

GOODNESS GRACIOUS! an additional 5% on a meal ticket is indeed a devastating financial blow

Do you voluntarily pay 5% extra for everything you purchase, without getting anything of value in return??? And we're not talking about tips or service charges here... Just the underlying item(s) purchased?

Go to Central Department store and they ring up a 2000 baht shelf price item purchase, and you say NAH.... 2000 baht isn't enough... I want to pay you 2100 baht instead. You doing that regularly, huh???

we are talking about a meal which (i assume) did not cost 2,000 Baht but perhaps 500. and for 25 Baht (most probably less) the OP asked to reverse the charges? give me a break please!

They refused to reverse the transaction.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Not everyone here subsists off mama... Naam...

My recent dinner where the King Power Pullman Wine Pub tried to DCC our bill was a $50 U.S. dinner.... It was worth it to insist on a bill in Thai baht... apart from the principle involved....

And there is a principle involved.... the price for one's meal is the price.... not the price plus an arbitrary 4 or 5% added on for no purpose and with no added value provided.

[Naam]

Not everyone here subsists off mama... Naam...

My recent dinner where the King Power Pullman Wine Pub tried to DCC our bill was a $50 U.S. dinner.... It was worth it to insist on a bill in Thai baht... apart from the principle involved....

And there is a principle involved.... the price for one's meal is the price.... not the price plus an arbitrary 4 or 5% added on for no purpose and with no added value provided.

the topic of this thread is not the irrelevant cost of your recent dinner.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Not everyone here subsists off mama... Naam...

My recent dinner where the King Power Pullman Wine Pub tried to DCC our bill was a $50 U.S. dinner.... It was worth it to insist on a bill in Thai baht... apart from the principle involved....

And there is a principle involved.... the price for one's meal is the price.... not the price plus an arbitrary 4 or 5% added on for no purpose and with no added value provided.

the topic of this thread is not the irrelevant cost of your recent dinner.

You were the one who was just griping about not being bothered with DCC for the cost of a meal... My DCC hassle with the King Power Pullman was the cost of a meal. I'd say that's pretty relevant... But I'd have objected to the merchant attempting DCC even if it was a 300 baht Sizzler meal and not a 1600 baht dinner at the Wine Pub.... The principle is the same, regardless of the amount involved.