Jehovah'S Witnesses In Chiang Mai

[OldGringo]

Why not pin the topic and let this Ship of Fools sail on into eternity?

What started as a complaint about Jehovah's Witnesses and their activities in Chiang Mai turned into a face-off between religious fundamentalists and devout atheists .

Made ridiculous by the level of discourse, and sounding like a convention of shopkeepers or used car salesmen suddenly in contention over some issue way over their heads.

All it takes is mention of something beyond their ken to raise a parrot-cry repeated on all sides by these half-educated savants with their fractured syntax and misspelled words.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Lite Beer
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[Fookhaht]

Why not pin the topic and let this Ship of Fools sail on into eternity?

What started as a complaint about Jehovah's Witnesses and their activities in Chiang Mai turned into a face-off between religious fundamentalists and devout atheists .

Made ridiculous by the level of discourse, and sounding like a convention of shopkeepers or used car salesmen suddenly in contention over some issue way over their heads.

All it takes is mention of something beyond their ken to raise a parrot-cry repeated on all sides by these half-educated savants with their fractured syntax and misspelled words.

Dealt with bigotry, now we have to deal with arrogance.

[Ulysses G.]

Pat Condell is an atheist, but believes in tolerating other's beliefs.

http://www.youtube.c...u/0/IolHgMf_nbw

Edited January 4, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[OriginalPoster]

Bigots, for daring to give an opinion?

Oh well never mind, as Hitch once said, "my own opinion is enough for me, and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time. And anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass."

No, bigots for condemning anyone of Western faith while hypocritically claiming to be tolerant of the ever present religion of their adopted country.

Well as an atheist myself, ie someone who has no belief in god(s), and not belief in no god(s), I resent your straw man mispresentations of non-believers en bloc. Although there are exceptions, we do not "condemn anyone of Western faith", and nor have I seen any significant evidence of people doing so in this thread.

The Buddhist religion is another matter entirely, it involves no monotheistic creator deity, allegedly superior to all alternatives. On the contrary it shows tolerance of other belief systems, and many Christians would do well to follow its example.

I'm an atheist as well, and I resent the knee-jerk reactions to people of faith that are the norm on ThaiVisa.

[OriginalPoster]

It doesn't matter if they are JW, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Catholics, or any other denomination of Christians. If they are even arrogant enough to go to church on Sunday's, the ThaiVisa faithful are going to pile on to bitch & moan about them.

you got it wrong again! it's not about IF they go to church, temple or coven. My OP was about they go around trying to convert by knocking on doors and the arrogance of that.

So what? A lot of people knock on doors. It's a sort of person to person spam. You're specifically lashing out at these door-to-door spammers because their product is religion. Can you honestly say that you would hate them enough to start a thread about them if they were selling Tupperware?

Edited January 4, 2012 by OriginalPoster

[transam]

It doesn't matter if they are JW, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Catholics, or any other denomination of Christians. If they are even arrogant enough to go to church on Sunday's, the ThaiVisa faithful are going to pile on to bitch & moan about them.

you got it wrong again! it's not about IF they go to church, temple or coven. My OP was about they go around trying to convert by knocking on doors and the arrogance of that.

So what? A lot of people knock on doors. It's a sort of person to person spam. You're specifically lashing out at these door-to-door spammers because their product is religion. Can you honestly say that you would hate them enough to start a thread about them if they were selling Tupperware?

JW's should be hated, they are brain washed fools that cannot see their faults. MOST of the planet hate meeting them on the doorstep and in Buddhist country, well, good try, but piss off.

[uptheos]

I'd hate anyone who would let a child die, often in agony, when the cure could be available in 5 minutes.

[OriginalPoster]

It doesn't matter if they are JW, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Catholics, or any other denomination of Christians. If they are even arrogant enough to go to church on Sunday's, the ThaiVisa faithful are going to pile on to bitch & moan about them.

you got it wrong again! it's not about IF they go to church, temple or coven. My OP was about they go around trying to convert by knocking on doors and the arrogance of that.

So what? A lot of people knock on doors. It's a sort of person to person spam. You're specifically lashing out at these door-to-door spammers because their product is religion. Can you honestly say that you would hate them enough to start a thread about them if they were selling Tupperware?

JW's should be hated, they are brain washed fools that cannot see their faults. MOST of the planet hate meeting them on the doorstep and in Buddhist country, well, good try, but piss off.

Again, so what? At least they give you stories to entertain you drinking buddies with. Everyone loves a story that starts with "Jehovah's Witnesses showed up at my door and __________". If you are as secure as you are militant in your atheism, then their visit won't adversely affect the course of your life..

[OriginalPoster]

I'd hate anyone who would let a child die, often in agony, when the cure could be available in 5 minutes.

There are billions of people in the world who have nutty views that are arguably irresponsible. It's a waste of time to hate them.

Edited January 4, 2012 by OriginalPoster

[msg362]

Those accusing non-believers of bigotry should take a closer look at the dictionary themselves. Being anti-religion does not equate to being anti-religious people. There is a major distinction. To make it clearer to the hard of understanding, I am anti-religion, while noting clear differences in the effect of monotheistic religions, to, say, deist or pantheist worldviews. At the same time, I have some great and close Christian/Muslim friends.

This was a quote

I've looked up the definition of 'bigot' it means intolerance of other people's ideas. I tolerate religious nut cases, just think they are daft. But please let them tolerate me and leave me alone please. To my mind, those who try to convert are the bigots as they KNOW they have the only truth and are often intolerant of other peoples beliefs, but enough said.

Edited January 4, 2012 by msg362

[Eyjafjallajokull]

It doesn't matter if they are JW, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Catholics, or any other denomination of Christians. If they are even arrogant enough to go to church on Sunday's, the ThaiVisa faithful are going to pile on to bitch & moan about them.

you got it wrong again! it's not about IF they go to church, temple or coven. My OP was about they go around trying to convert by knocking on doors and the arrogance of that.

So what? A lot of people knock on doors. It's a sort of person to person spam. You're specifically lashing out at these door-to-door spammers because their product is religion. Can you honestly say that you would hate them enough to start a thread about them if they were selling Tupperware?

JW's should be hated, they are brain washed fools that cannot see their faults. MOST of the planet hate meeting them on the doorstep and in Buddhist country, well, good try, but piss off.

Could you "enlighten" us on the background of your statements? Only half of Witness children become Jehovah's Witnesses, so your theory of brainwashing does not hold. If JW's used brainwashing, you could bet on that far less then 50% of their children would "escape".

Who are "most of the planet"? Would they include or exclude the people being witnessed to, counted in billions of work hours per year? All the people who are sitting on bible studies, counted in hundreds of millions of hours per year?

If "all the world" hated them, who would then be the audience for the largest print- and translation work in the world? Their monthly publications are printed in nearly 200 languages, with a print run of nearly 100 million copies. If "all the world" hated them and wanted nothing to do with them, you can also bet that those figures would be much lower.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Eyjafjallajokull

[OriginalPoster]

Those accusing non-believers of bigotry should take a closer look at the dictionary themselves. Being anti-religion does not equate to being anti-religious people. There is a major distinction. To make it clearer to the hard of understanding, I am anti-religion, while noting clear differences in the effect of monotheistic religions, to, say, deist or pantheist worldviews. At the same time, I have some great and close Christian/Muslim friends.

This was a quote

I've looked up the definition of 'bigot' it means intolerance of other people's ideas. I tolerate religious nut cases, just think they are daft. But please let them tolerate me and leave me alone please. To my mind, those who try to convert are the bigots as they KNOW they have the only truth and are often intolerant of other peoples beliefs, but enough said.

Have you considered that those that are trying to convert you are not trying to control you, but that they are true believers who are trying to save you from purgatory? Suppose you were a true believer and knew that someone who was heading to hell and you were confident that you could save them. If you then tried to save them.would you be guilty of "bigotry" or "arrogance" or would you merely be dong the responsible thing? Some might think that idlly sitting by while someone was self-destructing was more arrogant than knocking on someone's door.

Edited January 4, 2012 by OriginalPoster

[OriginalPoster]

you got it wrong again! it's not about IF they go to church, temple or coven. My OP was about they go around trying to convert by knocking on doors and the arrogance of that.

So what? A lot of people knock on doors. It's a sort of person to person spam. You're specifically lashing out at these door-to-door spammers because their product is religion. Can you honestly say that you would hate them enough to start a thread about them if they were selling Tupperware?

JW's should be hated, they are brain washed fools that cannot see their faults. MOST of the planet hate meeting them on the doorstep and in Buddhist country, well, good try, but piss off.

Could you "enlighten" us on the background of your statements? Only half of Witness children become Jehovah's Witnesses, so your theory of brainwashing does not hold. If JW's used brainwashing, you could bet on that far less then 50% of their children would "escape".

Who are "most of the planet"? Would they include or exclude the people being witnessed to, counted in billions of work hours per year? All the people who are sitting on bible studies, counted in hundreds of millions of hours per year?

If "all the world" hated them, who would then be the audience for the largest print- and translation work in the world? Their monthly publications are printed in nearly 200 languages, with a print run of nearly 100 million copies. If "all the world" hated them and wanted nothing to do with them, you can also bet that those figures would be much lower.

I lived next to some witnesses for a period of time. They have a policy of not proselytizing in their own neighborhoods so I never dealt with them on that basis. But i have to say, they were the nicest neighbors that I ever had - if anyone in the neighborhood needed help on anything they were ready to pitch in.

[Johpa]

Anyone who can believe that god dictated to a 19th Century man on gold tablets deserves to be called a moron.

This is where people here straddle on religious bigotry. Just because someone believes something that you do not believe does not make them a moron. If that were the case then the entire world becomes moronic, which it seems to be some days, but not because of beliefs. Look, I am an a-theist, I don't believe in any invisible man in the sky. But most of my friends do not share my thoughts as they believe in some sort of theistic deity associated with one myth or another, and the last thing I would call these people are morons. On the contrary, they are for the most part good, caring people, especially the Mormons I have met.

to believe in the absurd is moronic

It is not a subtle difference between the usage of the adjective moronic and the usage of the noun moron. The implication of calling the person who believes what you do not as a "moron" is unjustified and is indeed a sign of bigotry.

[Ulysses G.]

I lived next to some witnesses for a period of time. They have a policy of not proselytizing in their own neighborhoods so I never dealt with them on that basis. But i have to say, they were the nicest neighbors that I ever had - if anyone in the neighborhood needed help on anything they were ready to pitch in.

I worked with some JWs for many years. They never pushed their religion on me and were some of the nicest people that I have ever known in my life. I am not crazy about religion, but if it does not hurt anyone, why judge other's beliefs?

[daoyai]

Religion does not hurt anyone? I suggest you read "The god delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Or you can watch the video in 6 parts on youtube. Brilliant.

[kurnell]

Who was Jehovah? Was he a friend of somebody important?

[udonguy]

Why not pin the topic and let this Ship of Fools sail on into eternity?

What started as a complaint about Jehovah's Witnesses and their activities in Chiang Mai turned into a face-off between religious fundamentalists and devout atheists .

Made ridiculous by the level of discourse, and sounding like a convention of shopkeepers or used car salesmen suddenly in contention over some issue way over their heads.

All it takes is mention of something beyond their ken to raise a parrot-cry repeated on all sides by these half-educated savants with their fractured syntax and misspelled words.

What an absurd post (and in bold which is a form of shouting and against forum rules).

I am the OP and the thread was started to highlight farang coming to Thailand and door knocking to find 'converts'. I could not care less if they were JW's, Muslims or the local Coven.

I fundamentally disagree with proselytizing

by anyone and, it has to be said, by farang especially (when they are guests in a Buddhist country). People should have the right not to be disturbed or hassled in their own homes.

I called it 'arrogance' because that's what it IS. Any faith that thinks it 'owns' the Truth and MUST pass it on to us poor sinners because they KNOW and to do this in a Buddhist country which is highly tolerant (too tolerant sometimes) makes it doubly worse!

I have pointed out, and not one poster has defended or challenged it, that JW's are the ONLY one's to undertake this 'missionary' zeal here.

Buddhists don't do it

Muslim's don't do it (they have 'other' methodologies)

Zoroastrians don't do it

Rastafarian don't do it

Hindu's don't do it

Atheists don't do it

Agnostics don't do it

Luciferians don't do it

JW's DO and it's a pain in the a*** NOT because they are JW's (although I have issues with transfusions and allowing kids to die etc.) but because they think only THEY own the truth and if we are not among the 144,000 then we are damned to Hell (you would think the 'quota' was full by now).

So this was never a 'JW' bashing thread but a

'I hear you knockin but you can't come in'

(apologies to Little Richard) thread.

Edited January 5, 2012 by udonguy

[msg362]

Those accusing non-believers of bigotry should take a closer look at the dictionary themselves. Being anti-religion does not equate to being anti-religious people. There is a major distinction. To make it clearer to the hard of understanding, I am anti-religion, while noting clear differences in the effect of monotheistic religions, to, say, deist or pantheist worldviews. At the same time, I have some great and close Christian/Muslim friends.

This was a quote

I've looked up the definition of 'bigot' it means intolerance of other people's ideas. I tolerate religious nut cases, just think they are daft. But please let them tolerate me and leave me alone please. To my mind, those who try to convert are the bigots as they KNOW they have the only truth and are often intolerant of other peoples beliefs, but enough said.

Have you considered that those that are trying to convert you are not trying to control you, but that they are true believers who are trying to save you from purgatory? Suppose you were a true believer and knew that someone who was heading to hell and you were confident that you could save them. If you then tried to save them.would you be guilty of "bigotry" or "arrogance" or would you merely be dong the responsible thing? Some might think that idlly sitting by while someone was self-destructing was more arrogant than knocking on someone's door.

You prove my point. There is no evidence for purgatory, hell and the rest. They have a faith, not based on evidence, simply belief. Please keep them away from me, they are boring. They have no tolerance for my postion ,which is until someone can show me verifiable evidence then I will not believe, but I have looked extensively. You may notice I'm not sitting idly by, I'm making my position clear, but not trying to impose it on others.

To illustrate. If I were to believe in Bertrand Russell's flying tea pot and were to go knocking on doors trying to convert people to my way of thinking just because I had 'faith' but no independent evidence what would you think of me? The fact that (many) people believe something doesn't me it's true! In any event all faiths are atheists of other religions, I just go one better!

Edited January 5, 2012 by msg362

[elektrified]

What an absurd post (and in bold which is a form of shouting and against forum rules).

I am the OP and the thread was started to highlight farang coming to Thailand and door knocking to find 'converts'. I could not care less if they were JW's, Muslims or the local Coven.

I'm confused here. Aren't the ones doing the knocking Thai JW's??? They are the ones that I have seen and whom came to my house. Never seen farangs doing the knocking here; although it would not surprise me.

Edited January 5, 2012 by elektrified

[msg362]

Anyone who can believe that god dictated to a 19th Century man on gold tablets deserves to be called a moron.

This is where people here straddle on religious bigotry. Just because someone believes something that you do not believe does not make them a moron. If that were the case then the entire world becomes moronic, which it seems to be some days, but not because of beliefs. Look, I am an a-theist, I don't believe in any invisible man in the sky. But most of my friends do not share my thoughts as they believe in some sort of theistic deity associated with one myth or another, and the last thing I would call these people are morons. On the contrary, they are for the most part good, caring people, especially the Mormons I have met.

to believe in the absurd is moronic

It is not a subtle difference between the usage of the adjective moronic and the usage of the noun moron. The implication of calling the person who believes what you do not as a "moron" is unjustified and is indeed a sign of bigotry.

OK I'll change the word from 'moronic' to idiotic' or 'daft' if that helps. The point is that JWs believe in something that is not verifiable and is a joke to many people. If they kept quiet I'd be happy, it's the knocking on doors etc I don't like. equally if find it offensive that Mormons spend lots of money trying to convert hill tribe children to their way of believing. ( don't get me started on Scientology!!). There is a great deal of money, mainly from the US supporting these outfits. Somehow, absurd beliefs, because they are labelled 'religion' escape from normal criticism and debate.

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Why not pin the topic and let this Ship of Fools sail on into eternity?

What started as a complaint about Jehovah's Witnesses and their activities in Chiang Mai turned into a face-off between religious fundamentalists and devout atheists .

Made ridiculous by the level of discourse, and sounding like a convention of shopkeepers or used car salesmen suddenly in contention over some issue way over their heads.

All it takes is mention of something beyond their ken to raise a parrot-cry repeated on all sides by these half-educated savants with their fractured syntax and misspelled words.

What an absurd post (and in bold which is a form of shouting and against forum rules).

I am the OP and the thread was started to highlight farang coming to Thailand and door knocking to find 'converts'. I could not care less if they were JW's, Muslims or the local Coven.

I fundamentally disagree with proselytizing

by anyone and, it has to be said, by farang especially (when they are guests in a Buddhist country). People should have the right not to be disturbed or hassled in their own homes.

I called it 'arrogance' because that's what it IS. Any faith that thinks it 'owns' the Truth and MUST pass it on to us poor sinners because they KNOW and to do this in a Buddhist country which is highly tolerant (too tolerant sometimes) makes it doubly worse!

I have pointed out, and not one poster has defended or challenged it, that JW's are the ONLY one's to undertake this 'missionary' zeal here.

Buddhists don't do it

Muslim's don't do it (they have 'other' methodologies)

Zoroastrians don't do it

Rastafarian don't do it

Hindu's don't do it

Atheists don't do it

Agnostics don't do it

Luciferians don't do it

JW's DO and it's a pain in the a*** NOT because they are JW's (although I have issues with transfusions and allowing kids to die etc.) but because they think only THEY own the truth and if we are not among the 144,000 then we are damned to Hell (you would think the 'quota' was full by now).

So this was never a 'JW' bashing thread but a

'I hear you knockin but you can't come in'

(apologies to Little Richard) thread.

Again and again you expose your very limited knowledge, yet you make strong statements. To assert that kids dye because of lack of blood transfusion. Can you explain why there are over 300 hospitals now in the US offering bloodless medicine? Why would the Pentagon grant the pioneer in bloodless medicine Engelwood hospital millions of dollars in grant to further enhance blood less surgery and train their doctors? See:

and here http://debbybruck.hubpages.com/hub/Bloodless-Surgery-A-Frontier-From-Belief-System-To-Save-Lives

On your claim regarding the 144.000, truth and hell.... why not read for your self the facts, and not rely on hearsay. An excellent start here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/index.htm

Its quite well known that JW's do not believe in hell, they preach that large part of humanity will live in Paradise on earth and yes, they believe they have the truth! Would it be much of a believer of any faith, if he or her did not think they had the "truth"?

Would you hire a salesman for your company who had say 50% believe in your product? Perhaps offered your competitors work as well on his sales trips? How about if he simply had no faith in your product, offered it to nobody..... it sure would be convenient to lots of people to be relevied of the pestering salesman. At least he could then think he wasn't bothering anyone, not upsetting your competitor and making everyone happy!

[msg362]

Its quite well known that JW's do not believe in hell, they preach that large part of humanity will live in Paradise on earth and yes, they believe they have the truth! Would it be much of a believer of any faith, if he or her did not think they had the "truth"?

Would you hire a salesman for your company who had say 50% believe in your product? Perhaps offered your competitors work as well on his sales trips? How about if he simply had no faith in your product, offered it to nobody..... it sure would be convenient to lots of people to be relevied of the pestering salesman. At least he could then think he wasn't bothering anyone, not upsetting your competitor and making everyone happy!

What happens to the rest? where do they go? Where is the evidence for such a claim?

so religion is akin to selling soap powder?

Can I go door to door telling everyone about Russell's teapot, claim it is a religion and demand respect and expect tax cuts? If people said it was absurd would they be bigoted?

Edited January 5, 2012 by msg362

[OldGringo]

Can't someone put an end to this?

The OP should be made to walk in penance barefoot up Doi Sutep for his foolish complaint and subsequently starting such a humourless, mindless, and at times nasty thread.

[msg362]

Can't someone put an end to this?

The OP should be made to walk in penance barefoot up Doi Sutep for his foolish complaint and subsequently starting such a humourless, mindless, and at times nasty thread.

ER? it's a bit like television, if you dont like it you don't have to watch /read it!

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Its quite well known that JW's do not believe in hell, they preach that large part of humanity will live in Paradise on earth and yes, they believe they have the truth! Would it be much of a believer of any faith, if he or her did not think they had the "truth"?

Would you hire a salesman for your company who had say 50% believe in your product? Perhaps offered your competitors work as well on his sales trips? How about if he simply had no faith in your product, offered it to nobody..... it sure would be convenient to lots of people to be relevied of the pestering salesman. At least he could then think he wasn't bothering anyone, not upsetting your competitor and making everyone happy!

What happens to the rest? where do they go? Where is the evidence for such a claim?

so religion is akin to selling soap powder?

Can I go door to door telling everyone about Russell's teapot, claim it is a religion and demand respect and expect tax cuts? If people said it was absurd would they be bigoted?

According to JW's believe the likes of Pol Plot, Anders Brevik, Stalin and Jack the Ripper will not be invited to attend the "paradise" party on earth. Is that an absurd believe?

This is perhaps what this whole thread is about, yes you are free to go door to door with the message of the whole teapot. The day we as a society lock our doors for all and any intrusion, we will be like reversed jail. The price of this freedom is that sometimes we might need to get of our bony a*** and either accept or dismiss who ever is on our doorstep, good, bad or ugly.

Final note..... respect is not demanded, it is earned.

[funcat]

Can't someone put an end to this?

The OP should be made to walk in penance barefoot up Doi Sutep for his foolish complaint and subsequently starting such a humourless, mindless, and at times nasty thread.

ER? it's a bit like television, if you dont like it you don't have to watch /read it!

....(sorry,am I allowed to post this?),but this is sooo "humourless"...well,lighten up boyz

[msg362]

Can't someone put an end to this?

The OP should be made to walk in penance barefoot up Doi Sutep for his foolish complaint and subsequently starting such a humourless, mindless, and at times nasty thread.

ER? it's a bit like television, if you dont like it you don't have to watch /read it!

....(sorry,am I allowed to post this?),but this is sooo "humourless"...well,lighten up boyz

OK If I believe in Russell's 'teapot' am I a teaist? and if you don't are you an Ateaist?

Edited January 5, 2012 by msg362

[funcat]

Can't someone put an end to this?

The OP should be made to walk in penance barefoot up Doi Sutep for his foolish complaint and subsequently starting such a humourless, mindless, and at times nasty thread.

ER? it's a bit like television, if you dont like it you don't have to watch /read it!

....(sorry,am I allowed to post this?),but this is sooo "humourless"...well,lighten up boyz

OK If I believe in Russell's 'teapot' am I a teaist? and if you don't are you an Ateaist?

...there you go !!...just watch you spelling

[msg362]

Funcat!

You've inspired me ( or it might have been a revelation). I now have the ambition to be the first Professor of Teaology. All sects would be allowed ( I'm tolerant, not bigoted). We could have the Assam sect from India, a Ceylon sect, a Kenyan sect and if anyone want to start a sect based on rose petals I wouldn't mind!