Ex Wife Lives In Italy With Son, Demanding Maintenance In Thailand

[Burbridge]

Hi all, sorry if this has been discussed but I have looked all over and can't seem to find a definitive answer.

Me and the ex wife had a baby boy out of wedlock, then later decided to get married. As this may have helped in the future with me being British.

I am down as the father on the birth certificate, and we married at Ban Rak in BKK.

We never went to the UK embassy to make the marriage official nor did I get my son a birth certificate from the UK embassy.

We had an amicable break up and had a gentleman’s agreement (naive i know)

As it stood I had agreed to pay 12000THB per month (signed on the divorce papers) for the upkeep of my son as long as I could visit at any time.

All of this was going fine unitl she met her new partner, this I have no problem with. The problem is she has now taken our son to Italy and has given me no contact details. So I can't even send a birthday card or Christmas gift.

So because of this I stopped paying the 12000THB as I did not deem it fair that I was getting access and communication denied.

I have now received papers from a lawyer from her home province demanding that I pay the money & arrears within the next 14 days.

Is there anyone out there that can inform me of what may happen next.

I have a lawyer in BKK and sent them the letters from her lawyer.

Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Hooters]

You go back to the UK is an option.

[Burbridge]

I guess it is but, I have my home in BKK.

Also I see that as running away from a problem.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Burbridge

[mike123ca]

From your story, I get the impression your marriage was a ceremony and not the legal one, but you can clarify that later. If it's only a ceremony, I don't think your recognized as the father.

If I'm wrong and you are the legal father doesn't ex-wife have to provide for visitation? If she's out ofthe country she might be in violation of your visitation rights.

[Burbridge]

It was a marriage under thai law. I have the documentation from the marriage and the divorce. Hope that clears that up.

[ludditeman]

As it stood I had agreed to pay 12000THB per month (signed on the divorce papers) for the upkeep of my son as long as I could visit at any time.

It really depends what was written on the divorce papers.

What does the divorce paper say about the child custody arrangements?

Also, if you have no income from a job in Thailand, the Thai lawyer can do nothing to enforce payment anyway.

Where does your income come from, work (in Thailand?), pension (from UK?), investments, etc., be specific about country.

From the limited information you have given so far I can definitely say.

1) You have acknowledged the child as yours.

2) The child has the right to British citizenship.

If you were born in the UK the child already has the right to residency in the UK.

PS

Without her and the child being in Thailand, the only thing she can do, is get a lawyer to write letters anyway.

She has to return to use the Thai legal system, I think air fares would exceed any money she hoped to get from you anyway.

Edited January 14, 2012 by ludditeman

[Burbridge]

My income comes from my job in the middle east. however I do have income from property in Thailand.

I have read that they (lawyers/courts) are able to freeze assets that are held in Thailand, and property can be auctioned.

With regards to custody it was granted to the ex on the divorce papers.

[ludditeman]

My income comes from my job in the middle east. however I do have income from property in Thailand.

I have read that they (lawyers/courts) are able to freeze assets that are held in Thailand, and property can be auctioned.

With regards to custody it was granted to the ex on the divorce papers.

But did the papers specify that you were allowed to visit the child, if so when, where, how.

If the papers only say 12k a month, with no details of visitation rights for you, then you are screwed.

(have you had the divorce conditions translated into English by your own translator?)

(But I can't believe anyone would make an agreement that one-sided?)

But only if she returns to Thailand with the child.

Edited January 14, 2012 by ludditeman

[Burbridge]

So if she stays out of country then she can not demand anything, right?

But if she returns to thailand at least that would give me the chance (albeit a small one) to see my son. Then as i said before if i can see him then the money is not an issue.

With regards to visiting rights it was to be decided between the ex and myself, however now their is a total communication break down.

Sorry I never seen your edit:

With regards to the child being mine, that is not the dispute.

and it is good to know he could have british citizenship.

Thanks.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Burbridge

[ludditeman]

I would just do nothing.

If she returns to Thailand, let it go to court.

If/when that happens (extremely unlikely)

Tell the court she took the child out of Thailand without your permission, stopped you visiting the child, you are happy to pay if the child returns and remains in Thailand and you are allowed to visit.

You might want to sell your condo in the meantime. When that's gone you are bombproof.

It really was silly for you to surrender your custody rights at the divorce!

Edited January 14, 2012 by ludditeman

[Burbridge]

It really was silly for you to surrender your custody rights at the divorce!

This I know now.

What if I was to sign over the condos to a family member in the UK?

[ludditeman]

It really was silly for you to surrender your custody rights at the divorce!

This I know now.

What if I was to sign over the condos to a family member in the UK?

I wouldn't.

Edited January 14, 2012 by ludditeman

[champken]

Sorry i cant help you with any legal aspects to your case, but what a pair of xxxts your ex and the new bloke are eh !!....tell her straight, no access to your son = no maintenance and Mr Italy will have to pay, i have a problem with guys that decide to step into a relationship with mothers of children that already have loving and caring fathers and then disrespect that fact

[Mario2008]

You have a legal binding agreement to pay child maintenance. Unless the contract states that payment is only on the provision you can visit at any time you will have to pay.

Child maintenance is covered by international treaty to which most countries are party too. Child maintenance payment can be enforced in almost any country in the world. Unless you can proof that the agreement is that you pay provided you have access to your child you will have to pay and will only lose more money in judicial costs.

Get a lawyer specialized in family law and see if there are possibilities to lower the maintenance payments.

You will still have to pay maintennece, as it is for the child itself and not the mother. What ever happens, the child remains the financial responsibility of both parents.

[ludditeman]

Child maintenance is covered by international treaty to which most countries are party too. Child maintenance payment can be enforced in almost any country in the world. Unless you can proof that the agreement is that you pay provided you have access to your child you will have to pay and will only lose more money in judicial costs.

I don't think Thailand or Saudi are part of this agreement.

Trying to get a Thai court to enforce an agreement for a person living in Italy, using funds from a job in Saudi earned by a British citizen. Even if it was legally enforceable (which it isn't), you must be kidding.

Do nothing, it will cost her more money than she could ever recover from you, even if all the courts & governments did play ball.

Edited January 16, 2012 by ludditeman

[Wallaby]

I suppose just to make it more 'interesting' you could possibly go to court and ask for an order that you be provided certain custody or visitation rights. Not sure if it would work but it could be a thorn in her side.

[Burbridge]

Thanks for all your advice and opinions.

As advised I do have a lawyer, and will keep you all informed of progress.

[Mario2008]

Child maintenance is covered by international treaty to which most countries are party too. Child maintenance payment can be enforced in almost any country in the world. Unless you can proof that the agreement is that you pay provided you have access to your child you will have to pay and will only lose more money in judicial costs.

I don't think Thailand or Saudi are part of this agreement.

Trying to get a Thai court to enforce an agreement for a person living in Italy, using funds from a job in Saudi earned by a British citizen. Even if it was legally enforceable (which it isn't), you must be kidding.

Do nothing, it will cost her more money than she could ever recover from you, even if all the courts & governments did play ball.

If you think a Thai judge will ignore a violation of a contract made in Thailand for a Thai child, you are mistaken.

Also note that the mother is no party here. The dispute is bewteen the child and the father. The mother merely sues on behalf of the child. Access to child is in most countries a completely separated issue from the obligation to pay child maintenence. A judge will just say, the maintenance is for the child not for the mother and disregard any complaints about access to the child.

In this case, if the agreement is also about access, it could lead to a reduction of the maintenance payments to about 6,000 a month (plus half of education and medical costs). That would be the standard rate the child is entitled to and a parent can't waive the rights of a child to child support. It is after all a right of the child itself.

Even if Saudi Arabia would not be party to the treaty, a Thai judge will have no problem to confiscate any property/bank account in Thailand. Nor will a UK court, which will certainly respect a Italian court decision regarding child maintenance.

[ludditeman]

Child maintenance is covered by international treaty to which most countries are party too. Child maintenance payment can be enforced in almost any country in the world. Unless you can proof that the agreement is that you pay provided you have access to your child you will have to pay and will only lose more money in judicial costs.

I don't think Thailand or Saudi are part of this agreement.

Trying to get a Thai court to enforce an agreement for a person living in Italy, using funds from a job in Saudi earned by a British citizen. Even if it was legally enforceable (which it isn't), you must be kidding.

Do nothing, it will cost her more money than she could ever recover from you, even if all the courts & governments did play ball.

If you think a Thai judge will ignore a violation of a contract made in Thailand for a Thai child, you are mistaken.

I don't think a Thai judge will rule on anything without the complainent being physically present in the court.

If you know different, please let me know.

Enforcement payment of any ruling is an entirely different matter.

(But as I advised the OP, not owning a condo in Thailand would make avoidance of any payment easier)

@Mario

I do feel your advice, in this instance, is being coloured by your morality.

What is 'right' and what the OP can 'get away with' are two entirely different matters.

Lets face it, the mother and the new father appear to be the ones causing problems, why should the OP always have to pay when the child clearly isn't suffering financial distress.

I'm always a little concerned that any agreement a woman makes is considered flexable, while an agreement from a man is always binding.

Edited January 16, 2012 by ludditeman

[Forethat]

Do everything possible to establish communication with the mother. If possible, travel to Italy to see her (and your son). In order for this to work out, it is imperative that you make the maintenance payments. You have to maintain a reasonable relationship with the mother.

Your son is your son and will always be. This fact doesn't change simply because the mother takes him to Italy or acts like a moron. Pay the maintenance, establish contact with the mother and ridicule yourself if it comes to that.

You think it sucks paying 12.000 Baht / month to support your son? Try losing him forever (especially when he grows up and learns that you you didn't even bother paying maintenance)...