Why Do People Migrate?

[folium]

I was wondering where the assumption came from that people were immigrants. All farang, unless they have Thai PR or citizenship are non-immigrants at best.

One of my pet peeves is people who continually try and say we are all guests simply because the bureaucracy says we are. My life is here. My job is here. My children are Thai. Just because I have to request an extension of stay every year on what is technically a non-B has nothing to do with reality. In every way that matters, I've been here 15 years and am an immigrant. Technicalities are largely irrelevant.

By all means, think of yourself as a guest if that makes you happy. My home is here. I object to people continually trying to tell me I am a guest simply because there are a few rules I have to follow to maintain my residency. I wouldn't consider myself to be a "guest" in an apartment complex where I lived simply because I had to pay rent every month, and could be evicted if I didn't. Similarly, I don't consider myself a "guest" in this country simply because I have to apply for an extension of stay periodically.

And let's all hope that the government will always allow us foreigners to stay here.

Unfortunately, there's always the fear that as few foreigners are granted citizenship, and politics tends to look for 'someone to blame' - we could all be thrown out at any moment to satisfy a voter need to get rid of the 'jews' - or rather, the Thai equivalent....

You decide if you are an immigrant or not, as you decide to emigrate from your point of origin and become an immigrant in the country you move to.

Immigration can be voluntary or forced but in both cases the individual makes the decision to move.

Hence the definition of the word immigrant is:

im·mi·grant

 [im-i-gruh

nt]

noun

1.

a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.

As per my previous post when I lived in the US I was classed as a "non-resident alien". That didn't make me a homeless person beamed down from a different planet. While the Thai authorities deem you to be a "non-immigrant" that does not change your actual status if you meet the above definition.

Any non-Thai who has moved to Thailand from another country with the plan to be permanently living here is an immigrant, just like a Polish or Pakistani immigrant in the UK, or an Indian or Russian immigrant in the USA.

If the cap fits wear it.

Edited January 28, 2012 by folium

[F1fanatic]

I was wondering where the assumption came from that people were immigrants. All farang, unless they have Thai PR or citizenship are non-immigrants at best.

One of my pet peeves is people who continually try and say we are all guests simply because the bureaucracy says we are. My life is here. My job is here. My children are Thai. Just because I have to request an extension of stay every year on what is technically a non-B has nothing to do with reality. In every way that matters, I've been here 15 years and am an immigrant. Technicalities are largely irrelevant.

By all means, think of yourself as a guest if that makes you happy. My home is here. I object to people continually trying to tell me I am a guest simply because there are a few rules I have to follow to maintain my residency. I wouldn't consider myself to be a "guest" in an apartment complex where I lived simply because I had to pay rent every month, and could be evicted if I didn't. Similarly, I don't consider myself a "guest" in this country simply because I have to apply for an extension of stay periodically.

And let's all hope that the government will always allow us foreigners to stay here.

Unfortunately, there's always the fear that as few foreigners are granted citizenship, and politics tends to look for 'someone to blame' - we could all be thrown out at any moment to satisfy a voter need to get rid of the 'jews' - or rather, the Thai equivalent....

it is largely a paranoid fear based on not very much evidence. I mean this is a country which gives away work visas like candy to historical enemies in Burma and Cambodia and has integrated the Chinese better than just about any other SE Asian country. If they are doing that for them, thinking that they are going to chuck out westerners (who can visa run their life here) is a bit of a stretch.

As for the citizenship one...well given that so few bother to apply, then you wouldn't expect many to be granted it now would you?

Gregb is right, it is largely semantics. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck....etc etc.

I genuinely hope you are right.

If you think work visas are "given away like candy", you are living in cloud cuckoo land - money is always involved via the employer.

The Burmese are at least 90% illegal immigrants, working for even less than the poorest Thais.

Edit - I haven't met any Cambodians, but the Chinese arrived here centuries ago and are now the wealthiest and those who are 'aspired to'. Which is why posters nearly always have a 'Chinese origin' g/f.

Edited January 28, 2012 by F1fanatic

[Heimdallr]

Absence of a problem leads to absence of thinking. Of course we have to put effort to improve our living conditions wherever we live. Your attitude is the same old "if ya don' like it, go home".

Why do people migrate? Come on...

[xthAi76s]

I was wondering where the assumption came from that people were immigrants. All farang, unless they have Thai PR or citizenship are non-immigrants at best.

One of my pet peeves is people who continually try and say we are all guests simply because the bureaucracy says we are. My life is here. My job is here. My children are Thai. Just because I have to request an extension of stay every year on what is technically a non-B has nothing to do with reality. In every way that matters, I've been here 15 years and am an immigrant. Technicalities are largely irrelevant.

By all means, think of yourself as a guest if that makes you happy. My home is here. I object to people continually trying to tell me I am a guest simply because there are a few rules I have to follow to maintain my residency. I wouldn't consider myself to be a "guest" in an apartment complex where I lived simply because I had to pay rent every month, and could be evicted if I didn't. Similarly, I don't consider myself a "guest" in this country simply because I have to apply for an extension of stay periodically.

And let's all hope that the government will always allow us foreigners to stay here.

Unfortunately, there's always the fear that as few foreigners are granted citizenship, and politics tends to look for 'someone to blame' - we could all be thrown out at any moment to satisfy a voter need to get rid of the 'jews' - or rather, the Thai equivalent....

it is largely a paranoid fear based on not very much evidence. I mean this is a country which gives away work visas like candy to historical enemies in Burma and Cambodia and has integrated the Chinese better than just about any other SE Asian country. If they are doing that for them, thinking that they are going to chuck out westerners (who can visa run their life here) is a bit of a stretch.

As for the citizenship one...well given that so few bother to apply, then you wouldn't expect many to be granted it now would you?

Gregb is right, it is largely semantics. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck....etc etc.

Samran, I like many of your posts, but you're off on this one. Actually, you are pretty far from the truth indeed.

Thailand has a fairly well documented history of xenophobia and racism.

The Chinese have not been so much integrated by the Thais (as you have stated) as much as they have fought and triumphed through the heavy racism they've faced for certainly more than a century here in Thailand.

From Wikipedia:

"

Thaksin's great-grandfather,

Seng Sae Khu

, was a Chinese immigrant from Meizhou, Guangdong, China, who arrived in Siam in the 1860s and settled in Chiang Mai in 1908. His eldest son, Chiang Sae Khu, was born in Chanthaburi in 1890 and married a Thai woman, called Saeng Somna. Chiang's eldest son, Sak, adopted the Thai surname Shinawatra ("routinely appropriate action") in 1938 because of the country's

anti-Chinese movement

and the rest of the family also adopted it.

"

Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaification

"

Thaification is a byproduct of the

nationalist

policies consistently followed by the Thai state after the

Siamese coup d'état of 1933

. The coup leaders, inspired by

Western

ideas of an exclusive

nation state

, sought to increase the power of the Central Thais. The businesses of interspersed minorities, like the traditionally merchant

Thai Chinese

, were aggressively bought out by the state, which gave preferential contracts to

ethnic Thais

.

^[1]

^"

^"

The second set of policies consists of policies applied nationally, but that disproportionately affect the fringe groups. One example of this is the prescribed use of the

Thai language

in

schools

. This had little effect on Central Thais who already used the language in everyday life, but made bilinguals of speakers of

Isan

in the north-east, of

Northern Thai or Kam Mueang

(คำเมือง) in the north and of

Yawi

(ยะวี) in the south.

^[2]

Harsher methods were imposed on the Thai Chinese; after the

People's Republic of China

was founded in 1949, a series of anticommunist governments starting with that of dictator

Plaek Pibulsonggram

sharply reduced Chinese immigration and prohibited all

Chinese language

secondary schools

in Thailand. Thai Chinese born after the 1950s had "very limited opportunities to enter Chinese schools"; those Thai Chinese who could afford to study overseas studied

English

instead of Chinese for economic reasons. As a result, the Chinese in Thailand have almost totally lost the language of their ancestors", and are gradually losing their Chinese identity.

^[3]

^"

Anyway, no country is perfect, but to suggest that Thailand, by some magic of tolerance or pro-multiculturalism, has integrated various peoples, is, I believe, a bit disingenuous of you.

That said, I don't think Thailand is so bad as to 'throw out' a bunch of legal permanent or temporary residents here.

[zzaa09]

Absence of a problem leads to absence of thinking. Of course we have to put effort to improve our living conditions wherever we live. Your attitude is the same old "if ya don' like it, go home".

Why do people migrate? Come on...

Almost an apology for neo-colonialism/imperialism.

Force or manipulate cultural traits on others.

Alas, most forget what civilisations are most responsible for cultural and civil difussion.

[StreetCowboy]

Absence of a problem leads to absence of thinking. Of course we have to put effort to improve our living conditions wherever we live. Your attitude is the same old "if ya don' like it, go home".

Why do people migrate? Come on...

Almost an apology for neo-colonialism/imperialism.

Force or manipulate cultural traits on others.

Alas, most forget what civilisations are most responsible for cultural and civil difussion.

Would that be like defussing, or like defusing? Or like difusion. Or defusion (which would be fission - not fishin')?

Anyway, my memory serves me poorly this evening; enlighten us, please. What civilisations (should that be 'which civilisations'>) are most responsible for cultural and civil difussion[sic] ?

SC

[StreetCowboy]

...

...Which is why posters nearly always have a 'Chinese origin' g/f.

Puts you and I in a small minority, then. Well, at least me, I shouldn't presume on your part.

SC

[StreetCowboy]

I was wondering where the assumption came from that people were immigrants. All farang, unless they have Thai PR or citizenship are non-immigrants at best.

One of my pet peeves is people who continually try and say we are all guests simply because the bureaucracy says we are. My life is here. My job is here. My children are Thai. Just because I have to request an extension of stay every year on what is technically a non-B has nothing to do with reality. In every way that matters, I've been here 15 years and am an immigrant. Technicalities are largely irrelevant.

By all means, think of yourself as a guest if that makes you happy. My home is here. I object to people continually trying to tell me I am a guest simply because there are a few rules I have to follow to maintain my residency. I wouldn't consider myself to be a "guest" in an apartment complex where I lived simply because I had to pay rent every month, and could be evicted if I didn't. Similarly, I don't consider myself a "guest" in this country simply because I have to apply for an extension of stay periodically.

And let's all hope that the government will always allow us foreigners to stay here.

Unfortunately, there's always the fear that as few foreigners are granted citizenship, and politics tends to look for 'someone to blame' - we could all be thrown out at any moment to satisfy a voter need to get rid of the 'jews' - or rather, the Thai equivalent....

You decide if you are an immigrant or not, as you decide to emigrate from your point of origin and become an immigrant in the country you move to.

Immigration can be voluntary or forced but in both cases the individual makes the decision to move.

Hence the definition of the word immigrant is:

im·mi·grant

 [im-i-gruh

nt]

noun

1.

a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.

As per my previous post when I lived in the US I was classed as a "non-resident alien". That didn't make me a homeless person beamed down from a different planet. While the Thai authorities deem you to be a "non-immigrant" that does not change your actual status if you meet the above definition.

Any non-Thai who has moved to Thailand from another country with the plan to be permanently living here is an immigrant, just like a Polish or Pakistani immigrant in the UK, or an Indian or Russian immigrant in the USA.

If the cap fits wear it.

I, and many of my colleagues and acquaintances, would liken ourselves less like immigrants and more like gypsies - itinerant romantics in the stories, but really just transient thieving bastards out for what we can get...

SC

Edit: itinerant sounds so much better than transient, doesn't it?

[smokie36]

Why do people migrate?

My question....why do some stay put?

[StreetCowboy]

Why do people migrate?

My question....why do some stay put?

You're right, I do miss the snow, and I sometimes wish I could go back, but you can't rely on getting snow at Christmas time.

My wee boy was distraught at missing the snow a couple of years ago, when Grannie was complaining about being unable to move her car from the drive for a week... He doesn't remember the snow from his first birthday Christmas.... We have to pull out the embarassing photos to convince him (I used to hate that - I still do!)

SC

[4evermaat]

I was wondering where the assumption came from that people were immigrants. All farang, unless they have Thai PR or citizenship are non-immigrants at best.

One of my pet peeves is people who continually try and say we are all guests simply because the bureaucracy says we are. My life is here. My job is here. My children are Thai. Just because I have to request an extension of stay every year on what is technically a non-B has nothing to do with reality. In every way that matters, I've been here 15 years and am an immigrant. Technicalities are largely irrelevant.

By all means, think of yourself as a guest if that makes you happy. My home is here. I object to people continually trying to tell me I am a guest simply because there are a few rules I have to follow to maintain my residency. I wouldn't consider myself to be a "guest" in an apartment complex where I lived simply because I had to pay rent every month, and could be evicted if I didn't. Similarly, I don't consider myself a "guest" in this country simply because I have to apply for an extension of stay periodically.

And let's all hope that the government will always allow us foreigners to stay here.

Unfortunately, there's always the fear that as few foreigners are granted citizenship, and politics tends to look for 'someone to blame' - we could all be thrown out at any moment to satisfy a voter need to get rid of the 'jews' - or rather, the Thai equivalent....

i didn't intend to offend those that have a long term vested interest here. I've met foreigners who have million+ baht homes and families. But even without a visa, one could live off the grid on an overstay for years with little problems. Not encouraging overstays, but it is the point that it could be done with relative peace and not constantly looking over your shoulder. if it ever came to that.

[mackes]

I think we can provide Thai people with good Western ideas like you mentioned about house construction but on their terms.

But what if Thai people dont want "good western idea's".....you are sounding rather like an old colonial...."lets show the natives how they should live"....

So it would appear your posts are lacking in respect as well !!

It seems to me that you do not fully red my comment, however you must have missed the ending "on their terms",

which means if they don't want the are not obligated to assimilate to the idea.

As well as Thai's have greater ideas then the western world about certain things the opposit is also true, why not

exchange good ideas and consequently develop quicker. That is not lacking of respect!

[samran]

Anyway, no country is perfect, but to suggest that Thailand, by some magic of tolerance or pro-multiculturalism, has integrated various peoples, is, I believe, a bit disingenuous of you.

...except that I suggested nothing of the sort.

Previous posters were regurgitating, what I think, was largely unfounded paranoia that they were all at risk of being kicked out at a moments notice, to which I, like you, think is simply unfounded. I then proceeded to highlight examples to counter this assumption.

The migrant labour scheme is no secret, nor is it secret that the rules to hire labour from neignbouring countries are signficantly simpler and less burdensom on business and indiviuals than it is to issue standard work permits to other foriegners.

As for the Chinese, I take your point, but using past policy to my mind is a bit like using the White Australia Policy or Jim Crow laws in the US to comment on the state of relations between communities in those countries today. And the situation on the ground in Thailand for people with Chinese hertatige is significantly different - and in my mind, more advanced - when compared to most other SE countries.

If you think work visas are "given away like candy", you are living in cloud cuckoo land - money is always involved via the employer.

The Burmese are at least 90% illegal immigrants, working for even less than the poorest Thais.

Except you were talking about the government kicking you out, so what has that got to do with employers? Sure some do, many don't.

While I'd be a fool to say there are no illegal workers in Thailand (there are many) that doesn't deny the fact that visa's are given away quite easily to people from Burma, Laos and Cambodia. I'd also say that the system is quite overloaded due to its success.

I'd suggest you stroll down to Suan Phlu one day to see the queues of people from these countries getting their paperwork sorted, or head to your local labour office to see the government information printed up in these languages on how to organise their paperwork. You'd see tonnes of people lining up to register under this programme. They all can't be repressed workers being hired by cunning Thai businesses ready to scam them...

Your contention was that somehow foreigners are on the verge of being kicked out, which if you look at what the Thai government actually does in terms of visa's and work permits for even the least loved of Thailand's neigbours, blows out of the water some of the delusional theories you see sprouted on this board.

Edited January 29, 2012 by samran

[xthAi76s]

Anyway, no country is perfect, but to suggest that Thailand, by some magic of tolerance or pro-multiculturalism, has integrated various peoples, is, I believe, a bit disingenuous of you.

...except that I suggested nothing of the sort.

Previous posters were regurgitating, what I think, was largely unfounded paranoia that they were all at risk of being kicked out at a moments notice, to which I, like you, think is simply unfounded. I then proceeded to highlight examples to counter this assumption.

The migrant labour scheme is no secret, nor is it secret that the rules to hire labour from neignbouring countries are signficantly simpler and less burdensom on business and indiviuals than it is to issue standard work permits to other foriegners.

As for the Chinese, I take your point, but using past policy to my mind is a bit like using the White Australia Policy or Jim Crow laws in the US to comment on the state of relations between communities in those countries today. And the situation on the ground in Thailand for people with Chinese hertatige is significantly different - and in my mind, more advanced - when compared to most other SE countries.

If you think work visas are "given away like candy", you are living in cloud cuckoo land - money is always involved via the employer.

The Burmese are at least 90% illegal immigrants, working for even less than the poorest Thais.

Except you were talking about the government kicking you out, so what has that got to do with employers? Sure some do, many don't.

While I'd be a fool to say there are no illegal workers in Thailand (there are many) that doesn't deny the fact that visa's are given away quite easily to people from Burma, Laos and Cambodia. I'd also say that the system is quite overloaded due to its success.

I'd suggest you stroll down to Suan Phlu one day to see the queues of people from these countries getting their paperwork sorted, or head to your local labour office to see the government information printed up in these languages on how to organise their paperwork. You'd see tonnes of people lining up to register under this programme. They all can't be repressed workers being hired by cunning Thai businesses ready to scam them...

Your contention was that somehow foreigners are on the verge of being kicked out, which if you look at what the Thai government actually does in terms of visa's and work permits for even the least loved of Thailand's neigbours, blows out of the water some of the delusional theories you see sprouted on this board.

OK

[TheKeeNok]

Seeking semi-retirement early!

Wanna laugh at the fukers still grinding away doning the 9-5 thinking they have done well by taking on a monsterous mortgage! Life is too short man!

Burn it up! (responsibly)

[TheKeeNok]

Easy going ppl in Thailand and low cost! It's not perfect, but of all the places I've been to Thailand IS IT! Laos is cool too...

[Semper]

I was wondering where the assumption came from that people were immigrants. All farang, unless they have Thai PR or citizenship are non-immigrants at best.

One of my pet peeves is people who continually try and say we are all guests simply because the bureaucracy says we are. My life is here. My job is here. My children are Thai. Just because I have to request an extension of stay every year on what is technically a non-B has nothing to do with reality. In every way that matters, I've been here 15 years and am an immigrant. Technicalities are largely irrelevant.

By all means, think of yourself as a guest if that makes you happy. My home is here. I object to people continually trying to tell me I am a guest simply because there are a few rules I have to follow to maintain my residency. I wouldn't consider myself to be a "guest" in an apartment complex where I lived simply because I had to pay rent every month, and could be evicted if I didn't. Similarly, I don't consider myself a "guest" in this country simply because I have to apply for an extension of stay periodically.

And let's all hope that the government will always allow us foreigners to stay here.

Unfortunately, there's always the fear that as few foreigners are granted citizenship, and politics tends to look for 'someone to blame' - we could all be thrown out at any moment to satisfy a voter need to get rid of the 'jews' - or rather, the Thai equivalent....

I assume you mean the Chinese.