Officials Warn Of Fake Monks' Targeting Phuket Tourists

[mrdome]

Buddhist Monks may go on Alms Round from aprox 6am to 12 midday (according or the Monks Vinaya (rules))

I know for sure that the Theravada monks must have eaten their one meal for the day by 12 (p.m.). I once helped two monks I met on the train from Hua Hin get something to eat in the food court at Hualampong in a race against time. One of them, quite old, had a little alarm clock out and was watching the minutes tick by in order not to break that rule.

One of them liked me so much he wanted me to come with him and go up North to a monastery but I declined. I sometimes wonder how things would have turned out had I taken him up on it. A few hours later a teaching job fell into my lap... it was quite a fateful day for me back in 2001.

I supported one monk from Bhutan, who had flown in for medical treatment. Immigration dragon lady was much nicer to him when I went with him for his interview (he had neglected to get a visa before leaving Bhutan, unfortunately). Also, taught him some of the rules of proper monk behavior under the Theravada rules (not be seen eating after 12, take the monk seat on the buses, so that no female passenger has to squeeze by him (he was too modest to accept a seat at first), not give money directly to a female shop clerk) as these strict rules do not exist for Mahayana & Vajrayana monks, while they have others - certainly, none of them would be allowed to smoke and this does bother me a bit about Theravada monks, not that I would ever criticize that.

In anyway, most monks I have met were the real deal.

Edited January 21, 2012 by mrdome

[jehricaholic]

I guess the monk that runs the biggest temple in Koh Samet is a 'bad' monk.

From what I've read he would seem like a fake, but he was wandering the grounds, entering the buildings, and no other monks were apparent over the 2 days I vacationed there with a Farang friend (our hotel was next to the temple property).

Anyways... the 2 of us started to wander the temple grounds, the monk saw us called us over to the big Gold outdoor Buddha, and then proceeded to get us to do the usual incense/praying session. He then took us into the indoor Buddha with the usual lighting of candles etc. After this he started to show/offer us the various cheapie, mass-produced 'amulets' that were specific for that Koh Samet temple. At this point I saw the monetary offering envelopes next to him, so I knew this was going to end in a request for a donation (no problem) . However when I started to put 100 Baht in the envelope he stopped me and said he needed 300 Baht from us both. As an expat and recently converted Thai Buddhist, I knew this was not usual (my friend was a first time visitor to a temple but is also an expat so he knows the value of 300 Baht in Thailand, so he was also suspect). Anyways, I dealt with the 'transaction', was not going to pay 600 Baht total for 10 mins of his time and a few cheapie (non-metallic) amulets, but did not want the monk to lose face, so we returned most of the amulets he gave us and gave him about 250 Baht in total. He was somewhat satisfied and we left with a sour taste in our mouth about Thai Buddhism.

[F1fanatic]

Buddhist Monks may go on Alms Round from aprox 6am to 12 midday (according or the Monks Vinaya (rules))

I know for sure that the Theravada monks must have eaten their one meal for the day by 12 (p.m.). I once helped two monks I met on the train from Hua Hin get something to eat in the food court at Hualampong in a race against time. One of them, quite old, had a little alarm clock out and was watching the minutes tick by in order not to break that rule.

One of them liked me so much he wanted me to come with him and go up North to a monastery but I declined. I sometimes wonder how things would have turned out had I taken him up on it. A few hours later a teaching job fell into my lap... it was quite a fateful day for me back in 2001.

I supported one monk from Bhutan, who had flown in for medical treatment. Immigration dragon lady was much nicer to him when I went with him for his interview (he had neglected to get a visa before leaving Bhutan, unfortunately). Also, taught him some of the rules of proper monk behavior under the Theravada rules (not be seen eating after 12, take the monk seat on the buses, so that no female passenger has to squeeze by him (he was too modest to accept a seat at first), not give money directly to a female shop clerk) as these strict rules do not exist for Mahayana & Vajrayana monks, while they have others - certainly, none of them would be allowed to smoke and this does bother me a bit about Theravada monks, not that I would ever criticize that.

In anyway, most monks I have met were the real deal.

I've no evidence either way as to most monks are 'real' or not - but still find it unlikely they are targeting tourists who are normally christian if anything.

[sirchai]

“We have three ‘monk’ police officers in each of the three Phuket districts to keep an eye on things, generally the beaches, especially Patong Beach,” he said."

They should involve the brain police as well.

[Beetlejuice]

It`s easy to distinguish between the real monks and the fake monks.

The fake monks don’t have halos around their heads.

I thought everybody knew that?

[ToffeEFCpower]

Isn't Nathawut a fake monk too?

[parmo1]

After visiting the Buddhist themepark near Korat , and seeing the monks auctioning off food and reauctioing it, i realise that it is the same as all other religions, there to gain power and wealth for a few irreligious top men.

[oevna]

In anyway, most monks I have met were the real deal.

That has been my experience, as well. The "bad" monks (even ones who were legitimately ordained) stand out, just like the bad priests who get mixed up in sexual abuse scandals in the West. The vast majority of priests that I have met have been genuine.

[F1fanatic]

In anyway, most monks I have met were the real deal.

That has been my experience, as well. The "bad" monks (even ones who were legitimately ordained) stand out, just like the bad priests who get mixed up in sexual abuse scandals in the West. The vast majority of priests that I have met have been genuine.

Quite. Which is why they promote 'merit making' (ie giving money to the temple) as the way to buy your way out of sin...

Clearly a concept drawn up by someone (and promoted by other monks) who genuinely cared about trying to help people 'be better'.

[daak]

Buddhist Monks may go on Alms Round from aprox 6am to 12 midday (according or the Monks Vinaya (rules))

The time of day that a monk is allowed to eat isn't specified in the Vinaya. I believe the rule about only eating before noon is a tradition among Theravada Buddhist monks in Southeast Asia. For example, Cha'an Buddhist monks in China can eat in the evening, and they also follow the Vinaya code (although a slightly different version).

There are, however, an extra set of austerities called tudong (dhutanga in Pali) which are taken by some monks, and one of these austerities includes eating only one meal per day. It isn't specified what time of day the meal can be eaten, but there are many rules about the way in which monks can receive food, and the way in which they can eat a meal.

* The time of day that a monk is allowed to eat isn't specified in the Vinaya.

A) wrong as we Theravadin Monks (SE Asia) follow the Orthodox teachings (the original) the Vinaya clearly states Monks may eat any time between dawn (when one can see the lines on ones hand) and when the sun is at its Zenith (in Thailand 12pm)

* eating only one meal per day. It isn't specified what time of day the meal can be eaten,

yes its stated the Monk can eat at any time one chooses between the above times (dawn and Zenith)

[oevna]

In anyway, most monks I have met were the real deal.

That has been my experience, as well. The "bad" monks (even ones who were legitimately ordained) stand out, just like the bad priests who get mixed up in sexual abuse scandals in the West. The vast majority of priests that I have met have been genuine.

Quite. Which is why they promote 'merit making' (ie giving money to the temple) as the way to buy your way out of sin...

Clearly a concept drawn up by someone (and promoted by other monks) who genuinely cared about trying to help people 'be better'.

I didn't say that your experience (or anyone else's) was the same as mine. But on the topic of "making merit" by giving money to the temple, it is essentially the same as collections taken in church. Temples have bills to pay, and some people want to help. The donation boxes at Thai temples (if you can read Thai) usually specify the purpose that the money will go to (usually the cost of utilities, development of the temple, etc.). I don't know about other guys, but giving up girls, booze and partying wouldn't be worth it to me for the money that monks get in donations. It wouldn't be worth it, unless I chose to take that path for the sake of spiritual development.

Of course there are exceptions. You hear stories in the news occasionally of famous monks making millions of Baht in donations, having mistresses, drinking liquor, etc. Which is exactly the point I was making. They are the few exceptions, but they make the news. The common cases don't make the news, because the news doesn't make money reporting on the status quo.

[F1fanatic]

Buddhist Monks may go on Alms Round from aprox 6am to 12 midday (according or the Monks Vinaya (rules))

The time of day that a monk is allowed to eat isn't specified in the Vinaya. I believe the rule about only eating before noon is a tradition among Theravada Buddhist monks in Southeast Asia. For example, Cha'an Buddhist monks in China can eat in the evening, and they also follow the Vinaya code (although a slightly different version).

There are, however, an extra set of austerities called tudong (dhutanga in Pali) which are taken by some monks, and one of these austerities includes eating only one meal per day. It isn't specified what time of day the meal can be eaten, but there are many rules about the way in which monks can receive food, and the way in which they can eat a meal.

* The time of day that a monk is allowed to eat isn't specified in the Vinaya.

A) wrong as we Theravadin Monks (SE Asia) follow the Orthodox teachings (the original) the Vinaya clearly states Monks may eat any time between dawn (when one can see the lines on ones hand) and when the sun is at its Zenith (in Thailand 12pm)

* eating only one meal per day. It isn't specified what time of day the meal can be eaten,

yes its stated the Monk can eat at any time one chooses between the above times (dawn and Zenith)

I'm obviously missing something again...

What the hell has the time a person eats have to do with being a 'good' and exemplar person to their followers??

[F1fanatic]

In anyway, most monks I have met were the real deal.

That has been my experience, as well. The "bad" monks (even ones who were legitimately ordained) stand out, just like the bad priests who get mixed up in sexual abuse scandals in the West. The vast majority of priests that I have met have been genuine.

Quite. Which is why they promote 'merit making' (ie giving money to the temple) as the way to buy your way out of sin...

Clearly a concept drawn up by someone (and promoted by other monks) who genuinely cared about trying to help people 'be better'.

I didn't say that your experience (or anyone else's) was the same as mine. But on the topic of "making merit" by giving money to the temple, it is essentially the same as collections taken in church. Temples have bills to pay, and some people want to help. The donation boxes at Thai temples (if you can read Thai) usually specify the purpose that the money will go to (usually the cost of utilities, development of the temple, etc.). I don't know about other guys, but giving up girls, booze and partying wouldn't be worth it to me for the money that monks get in donations. It wouldn't be worth it, unless I chose to take that path for the sake of spiritual development.

Of course there are exceptions. You hear stories in the news occasionally of famous monks making millions of Baht in donations, having mistresses, drinking liquor, etc. Which is exactly the point I was making. They are the few exceptions, but they make the news. The common cases don't make the news, because the news doesn't make money reporting on the status quo.

Read my earlier posts... I pointed out that ALL religions are the same - Thai Buddhism is just more obvious in their belief that paying money somehow absolves all sins.

Edit - I've no time for any religion, but had thought Buddhism was probably better than the rest - before moving here... Hopefully though, there are still other Buddhist countries that actually follow the Buddah's beliefs.

Edited January 21, 2012 by F1fanatic

[oevna]

Buddhist Monks may go on Alms Round from aprox 6am to 12 midday (according or the Monks Vinaya (rules))

The time of day that a monk is allowed to eat isn't specified in the Vinaya. I believe the rule about only eating before noon is a tradition among Theravada Buddhist monks in Southeast Asia. For example, Cha'an Buddhist monks in China can eat in the evening, and they also follow the Vinaya code (although a slightly different version).

There are, however, an extra set of austerities called tudong (dhutanga in Pali) which are taken by some monks, and one of these austerities includes eating only one meal per day. It isn't specified what time of day the meal can be eaten, but there are many rules about the way in which monks can receive food, and the way in which they can eat a meal.

* The time of day that a monk is allowed to eat isn't specified in the Vinaya.

A) wrong as we Theravadin Monks (SE Asia) follow the Orthodox teachings (the original) the Vinaya clearly states Monks may eat any time between dawn (when one can see the lines on ones hand) and when the sun is at its Zenith (in Thailand 12pm)

* eating only one meal per day. It isn't specified what time of day the meal can be eaten,

yes its stated the Monk can eat at any time one chooses between the above times (dawn and Zenith)

Ah, you are correct, there is mention of when the meal can be eaten. However, it isn't quite as simple as dawn 'till noon. The Vinaya specifies that a monk can only store and consume the food received on alms rounds (pintapat) before noon, with the following exceptions:

Keeping and consuming. Each of the four basic classes of edibles — food, juice drinks, the five tonics, and medicines — has its "life span," the period during which it may be kept and consumed. Food may be kept and consumed until noon of the day it is received; juice drinks, until dawnrise of the following day; the five tonics, until dawnrise of the seventh day after they are received; and medicines, for the remainder of one's life.

Taken from here.

Even in the forest tradition in Thailand, there is some debate about what is considered allowable (i.e. food that can be consumed after noon.

Edited January 21, 2012 by oevna

[oevna]

Read my earlier posts... I pointed out that ALL religions are the same - Thai Buddhism is just more obvious in their belief that paying money somehow absolves all sins.

Edit - I've no time for any religion, but had thought Buddhism was probably better than the rest - before moving here... Hopefully though, there are still other Buddhist countries that actually follow the Buddah's beliefs.

Nowhere in Buddhism (Thai or otherwise) does it say that paying money absolves all sins. Where did you hear that?

[daak]

Buddhist Monks may go on Alms Round from aprox 6am to 12 midday (according or the Monks Vinaya (rules))

The time of day that a monk is allowed to eat isn't specified in the Vinaya. I believe the rule about only eating before noon is a tradition among Theravada Buddhist monks in Southeast Asia. For example, Cha'an Buddhist monks in China can eat in the evening, and they also follow the Vinaya code (although a slightly different version).

There are, however, an extra set of austerities called tudong (dhutanga in Pali) which are taken by some monks, and one of these austerities includes eating only one meal per day. It isn't specified what time of day the meal can be eaten, but there are many rules about the way in which monks can receive food, and the way in which they can eat a meal.

* The time of day that a monk is allowed to eat isn't specified in the Vinaya.

A) wrong as we Theravadin Monks (SE Asia) follow the Orthodox teachings (the original) the Vinaya clearly states Monks may eat any time between dawn (when one can see the lines on ones hand) and when the sun is at its Zenith (in Thailand 12pm)

* eating only one meal per day. It isn't specified what time of day the meal can be eaten,

yes its stated the Monk can eat at any time one chooses between the above times (dawn and Zenith)

I'm obviously missing something again...

What the hell has the time a person eats have to do with being a 'good' and exemplar person to their followers??

There are today in Thailand "Forest Monks" who live according to the rules and regulations laid down by the Lord Buddha. Who live simply and spend most of there day in meditation (not studying in schools) Living without money. Edited January 21, 2012 by daak

[daak]

Read my earlier posts... I pointed out that ALL religions are the same - Thai Buddhism is just more obvious in their belief that paying money somehow absolves all sins.

Edit - I've no time for any religion, but had thought Buddhism was probably better than the rest - before moving here... Hopefully though, there are still other Buddhist countries that actually follow the Buddah's beliefs.

Nowhere in Buddhism (Thai or otherwise) does it say that paying money absolves all sins. Where did you hear that?

Very True for a lay person to offer money to a Monk he commits a big sin and the lay person receives little benefit.

[oevna]

I'm obviously missing something again...

What the hell has the time a person eats have to do with being a 'good' and exemplar person to their followers??

It doesn't. The purpose of restrictions on eating and possessions for monks is to reduce attachment to material belongings and sensual desire, and to limit the burden on the people who make donations, upon whom the monks rely for sustenance.

[F1fanatic]

Read my earlier posts... I pointed out that ALL religions are the same - Thai Buddhism is just more obvious in their belief that paying money somehow absolves all sins.

Edit - I've no time for any religion, but had thought Buddhism was probably better than the rest - before moving here... Hopefully though, there are still other Buddhist countries that actually follow the Buddah's beliefs.

Nowhere in Buddhism (Thai or otherwise) does it say that paying money absolves all sins. Where did you hear that?

Is that not merit making?

Forgive me, I obviously got it wrong thinking that merit making was to 'buy' good luck etc. etc.

[oevna]

Read my earlier posts... I pointed out that ALL religions are the same - Thai Buddhism is just more obvious in their belief that paying money somehow absolves all sins.

Edit - I've no time for any religion, but had thought Buddhism was probably better than the rest - before moving here... Hopefully though, there are still other Buddhist countries that actually follow the Buddah's beliefs.

Nowhere in Buddhism (Thai or otherwise) does it say that paying money absolves all sins. Where did you hear that?

Very True for a lay person to offer money to a Monk he commits a big sin and the lay person receives little benefit.

It is not a sin for a lay person to offer money to a monk. It would be against the Vinaya in its strictest interpretation for the monk to accept the money, but we live in different times from when the Buddha created these rules. I know forest monks who would never touch money, and I know "city" monks who take regular donations and carry cell phones. If you can only see the world in black and white, then yes, those city monks are breaking the Vinaya. However, I don't see either as leading a life less determined towards spiritual development (among the ones that I know, and the ones I am referring to here). Of course there are bad people, lay people and monks alike. I'm not sure why that isn't obvious.

I have no time to try to convince you to have time for religion. I don't mind one way or the other.

[oevna]

Read my earlier posts... I pointed out that ALL religions are the same - Thai Buddhism is just more obvious in their belief that paying money somehow absolves all sins.

Edit - I've no time for any religion, but had thought Buddhism was probably better than the rest - before moving here... Hopefully though, there are still other Buddhist countries that actually follow the Buddah's beliefs.

Nowhere in Buddhism (Thai or otherwise) does it say that paying money absolves all sins. Where did you hear that?

Is that not merit making?

Forgive me, I obviously got it wrong thinking that merit making was to 'buy' good luck etc. etc.

You're moving the goal posts. Folk belief about receiving "good luck" for making donations is not the same thing as monks absolving one of all sins.

Why should I have to "forgive" you for getting it wrong? You're human and haven't done me any wrong. Weird.

Edited January 21, 2012 by oevna

[F1fanatic]

Read my earlier posts... I pointed out that ALL religions are the same - Thai Buddhism is just more obvious in their belief that paying money somehow absolves all sins.

Edit - I've no time for any religion, but had thought Buddhism was probably better than the rest - before moving here... Hopefully though, there are still other Buddhist countries that actually follow the Buddah's beliefs.

Nowhere in Buddhism (Thai or otherwise) does it say that paying money absolves all sins. Where did you hear that?

Is that not merit making?

Forgive me, I obviously got it wrong thinking that merit making was to 'buy' good luck etc. etc.

You're moving the goal posts. Folk belief about receiving "good luck" for making donations is not the same thing as monks absolving one of all sins.

Why should I have to "forgive" you for getting it wrong? You're human and haven't done me any wrong. Weird.

You're obviously right. I've no idea why I previously thought merit making was a load of old tosh designed to provide the temple with more money.

Or why I thought the whole idea of merit making was abhorent.

[HerbalEd]

I've seen monks, supposedly the real ones, with iPads, Galaxy's, iPhone, Blackberry's, Smart Phones, Pentax cameras, and about every other expensive thing you can think of, which sort of flies in the face of what Buddha taught about "material things".

Thailand is "Buddhist" only on the surface.

For you that is .... because apparently you only see the surface. Try looking a bit deeper.

[atyclb]

i met one in Hau-Hin in December, at a coffee shop using his ipad.

i met one in Hau-Hin in December, at a coffee shop using his ipad.

It could have easily been a real 1.......seen many real monks with fancy cameras, ipad, smoking.......

Among other things, a hint that suggests he is a real monk is if he is go-go dancing wearing only a G-string. (from a true new article in a local BKK newspaper whose name cannot be mentioned here)

[Dap]

"Religion and Politics" bring out the best and worst in conversation. IMO, let everyone believe in whatever they wish. It's certainly not my right to criticize anyone's beliefs. Let em' all do what they want, it's none of my business.

[janverbeem]

I thought that whole religion was fake in Thailand.

[PoodMaiDai]

Are the "monk police officers" real police officers or are they fake too?

[dighambara]

Orthodox Buddism forbids regular contact with the world at large, so such worldly things as; money, TCV, cell phones, IPads, calculators, cigarettes, betel, etc. are forbidden...

If Buddha were here today, he would personally admonish any Monk who used such things for himself...

I have seen Monks in the bank, openly exchanging Money - with nearby tellers looking very ill - even openly saying "HAHM"...

I see "Monks" come to shops, alone, with envelopes, seeking donations and other Monks who do not speak Thai - luckily, most folks understand they are fakes and do not give money.

Admittedly, Thai Buddhism has had many outside influences, which affect daily life; Hinduism (most shrines are Hindu, of Brahma), wrapping a tree with cloth, as if it was a Monk is Animism, plus, Stupas, Monuments, Taht Sy Gadook (Graves in general) reflect Ancestor Worship,

So, like Christianity, local Buddism has had many things creep in to mix with the "IDEAL" religion...

[Thaddeus]

I've been living here for quite a few years now, and I don't think I have met a real one yet.

Sorry as the world becomes more and more computer savy so dose our Sangha (Monks) for good and bad,

This in no way determins who out of the Buddhist Monks is real / not real monks.

Of course, they can now get porn on-line instead of stashing it under the mattress.

I'm sorry but, there is nothing that anyone can type in this thread that will overshadow the real evidence staring me in the face from the red and gold building outside my window.

The inhabitants smoke, drink, fornicate, have mobile phones and very healthy bank accounts, therefore not real Buddhist Monks, the visitors offer money to receive lucky lottery numbers, house blessings, car blessings, make my recently deceased granny next life better blessings etc therefore not real Buddhists.

End of.