Dowry

[grapetable]

Hi all,

Dowries.........

Need some input of opinions of the above; to cut a longer story short........Im seeing this Thai lady and she talks about paying a dowry to her family if we get married. I must say Im not too keen on this 'idea' and wonder what the 'old hands' have to say about it. The amounts discussed are substantial, Bt1,000,000. The whole idea of paying is an anathema to me, but I suppose one way or another 'we' (I will) end up paying anyway.

What I would like to know is: is this a common theme in Thailand or between Thai's? What is the common amount and how does the 'calculation' take place?

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks

Grapetable

[RamdomChances]

Try doing a search on "Dowrie" or "sin sot" as this is one of the most talked about subjects here and comes up about once a week or so.

Anyway there are 2 shcools of thought.

1. Dowrie(sin sot) is the thai custom and your marring a thai so you should pay it.

2. Dowrie(sin sot) is akin to buying a wife and and "there's no way I ever buy a wife"

Most Thais pay or at least show Sin Sot at the wedding its calculated on social status, age, married before, children ect On BTY a million Bhat is a ludicrous ammount of money unless you GF happens to be a University graduate virgin child of a well off BKK family.

[Old Croc]

1. Dowrie(sin sot) is the thai custom and your marring a thai so you should pay it.

[icecubes]

1. Dowrie(sin sot) is the thai custom and your marring a thai so you should pay it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Get your wallet out its only money.

[sonnyJ]

Dowry and bribery are socially stated norms/cultural values, which differ around the globe.

In Thailand, these both are the ancient culture still alive, more or less everywhere.

Bribery helps your life to be easy, dowry don't always, still it's the norm.

1,000,000 B is really not by far the highest I've heard about. But anyway it should be just to show off your status in the existing society. This should be far of from buying a wife.

Cheers

[Jeeves]

In the last 2 weddings in our village,

50,000 Baht and 70,000 Baht.

Both of the Thai lads are still studying, so their families came up with the dowry, it's normal to pay sin sot in Thailand.

Up to you and your future wife I guess, good luck though.

Edited December 5, 2005 by Jeeves

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hi all,

Dowries.........

Need some input of opinions of the above; to cut a longer story short........Im seeing this Thai lady and she talks about paying a dowry to her family if we get married. I must say Im not too keen on this 'idea' and wonder what the 'old hands' have to say about it. The amounts discussed are substantial, Bt1,000,000. The whole idea of paying is an anathema to me, but I suppose one way or another 'we' (I will) end up paying anyway.

What I would like to know is: is this a common theme in Thailand or between Thai's? What is the common amount and how does the 'calculation' take place?

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks

Grapetable

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These days it is mostly just a big face thing and the parents return the money to you afterwards. Get it made very clear though.

[siamesekitty]

Welcome to Thaivisa, grapetable!

My views on sinsod:

post in thread "Dowry" (May)

post in thread "The Dowry" (October)

[Spit the Dog]

Most Thais pay or at least show Sin Sot at the wedding its calculated on social status, age, married before, children ect On BTY a million Bhat is a ludicrous ammount of money unless you GF happens to be a University graduate virgin child of a well off BKK family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unless your future wife happens to be the virgin child of a well off BKK family, then it appears that her family are taking the piss by asking for 1,000,000 baht.

Delete a zero from their original 1 million baht asking price and that would be a more realistic payment.

[sonnyJ]

Most Thais pay or at least show Sin Sot at the wedding its calculated on social status, age, married before, children ect On BTY a million Bhat is a ludicrous ammount of money unless you GF happens to be a University graduate virgin child of a well off BKK family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unless your future wife happens to be the virgin child of a well off BKK family, then it appears that her family are taking the piss by asking for 1,000,000 baht.

Delete a zero from their original 1 million baht asking price and that would be a more realistic payment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This goes with my understanding of the prices too. If the family THINKS shes a virgin.

Anyway this kind of money (or more) you should be receiving back, and more than in many cases.

[ThaiPauly]

I did not have to pay anything as my Wife had been married before and her first husband paid it, so I guess its a "One Off" payment.

If anyone is asked to pay for a second marriage then it would appear that you are being conned

I gave her Dad a really nice Bhudda Chain though.

[stickman]

I just wrote this article yesterday about the dowry (or sin sot as it is called in Thai).

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Weekly/weekly239.htm

It might give you a few ideas.

[sonnyJ]

Grapetable, you must understand that this dowry is a basic norm in Thai culture. She will feel very obligest to pay back her parents her uppringing, school fees etc. (and it will not stop there). Add 2 to 10 times more so she can show face. It's a marriage after all. Meant to last a life time. One time chance. In many ways you will be also married to the family, (very different way from the western sence).

[cdnvic]

I just wrote this article yesterday about the dowry (or sin sot as it is called in Thai).

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Weekly/weekly239.htm

It might give you a few ideas.

You link back to us too right?

cv

[JRinger]

Hi all,

Dowries.........

Need some input of opinions of the above; to cut a longer story short........Im seeing this Thai lady and she talks about paying a dowry to her family if we get married. I must say Im not too keen on this 'idea' and wonder what the 'old hands' have to say about it. The amounts discussed are substantial, Bt1,000,000. The whole idea of paying is an anathema to me, but I suppose one way or another 'we' (I will) end up paying anyway.

What I would like to know is: is this a common theme in Thailand or between Thai's? What is the common amount and how does the 'calculation' take place?

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks

Grapetable

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Be aware marriage to a Thai is going to cost you some money.

The first step is to have someone approach the ladies parents to bargain about the cost of the "Tong Mun" and "Sin Sod."

"Tong Mun" which means "gold engagement" is actual 24 karat gold jewelry given to the lady. (Buy in Thailand , because lesser quality gold such as is sold in western countries would be considered as valueless.) The cost of this will vary, but expect it to be around $625.00 US. This is similar to the western engagement ring, which may also be given, but will not be expected.

"Sin Sod" is the marriage price, the word "Sin" means riches, things of value. In the past it might have been farm animals, farm products, land, or some such. Now money is used as the thing of value. "Sod" is the act of storing away, or holding the "Sin". Long ago it could have been keeping the "Sin" if it was a farm animal in a secure fenced area. Now the "Sin" would be likely stored by depositing the money into a bank. The amount will vary due to several factors such as, the social status and wealth of the parents, the education, age, and beauty of the daughter. The cost of the ceremonies, parties, food, etc., will be paid by the parents using part of the Sin Sod.

I understand that as a Westerner you think this sounds like selling ones daughter but the Thai culture has a completely different idea about it. They believe a prospective husband owes them for bringing up the daughter to be a proper lady and wife. Second you are replacing the labor she would have contributed to the family wealth. Third you are demonstrating you have the financial ability to support a family. Thai's are very strict about going along with their culture.

The "Tong Mun" and sometimes the "Sin Sod" will be presented at a betrothal ceremony called a "Phitee Mun," which will take place at the parents home. There may be a small group of family and friends present for the ceremony which involves the introduction of the groom by a friend, giving of the gifts, promises by the groom to take care of the daughter, and acceptance by the parents. You and your lady are now considered to be "Koo Mun" which means "tied or joined couple," (engaged.) Afterward there will be a meal served, and conversation.

Sometime later, it could be the same day, next day, next week, or whatever date set by the "Koo Mun," there will be the actual wedding ceremonies.

The "Bai Sri Soo Kwan" ceremony. The "Bai Sri" is a symbolic ornament put together by the women of the village using banana leaves, rice, flowers, and string. "Soo Kwan" is a sermon given by a village elder. The ceremony concludes by each guest tying a string around the wrist of the bride and of the groom, while giving the married couple their blessings, followed by the placing of a garland of flowers around the couples necks. There will be a meal, music, and "Ram Vong" dancing if there is room.

.....for what it's worth.....

Edited December 5, 2005 by JRinger

[siamesekitty]

Good explanation JRinger!

(for how it's supposed to be, traditionally )

[sbk]

Yes, but here anyway, traditionally the money is returned to the young couple so that they have something to start their life together. So, in a sense, it isn't really paying the parents back for educating and raising their daughter but it is seen as a hedge for the future. Unless the in laws are greedy and keep the whole lot, that is.

[BKK Traveler]

As people have said here and in other threads, a lot depends on the girl. Her education, beauty, intelligence, and background. Just recently I had a friend who got engaged to an upcountry small town girl, and was asked to pay 2 million baht, but negotiated down to 1 million. But the girl is (or at least claims) to be a virgin, is highly intelligent and on her way to getting a university degree, and extremely beautiful (she won first place in the beauty pageant of one of the major cities in Isaan). My guess is that she's the type of girl that would be classified in the top 1% of available girls. In that case, the girl's beauty was probably the most significant factor in the price of her sin sod.

I know another Thai girl who says her parents will ask for 5 million baht if she ever decides to get married. She's a professional model and has a college education and comes from a middle-class Chinese family. She's not a virgin, but her parents think she is and she's not about to tell them that she's not.

The price also depends a lot on the family you're marrying into. Their status, financial situation/need/debt, etc. I've asked a lot of people about what's the going rate these days for the sin sod, and the prices seem to be all over the map, but most say that prices have gone up recently, just as all prices go up. So if you're looking at the price someone paid several years ago, it probably has little relevance.

I'm certainly not keen on the idea of people paying to buy a wife, but Thais don't view it like that. As people have already said, it's to help pay for some of the costs involved in bringing up the daughter, and to show that the man is capable of supporting her. In the western world, most women are capable of supporting themselves as jobs usually readily available that pay enough to support one's self. Thailand is different. Many families must have multiple incomes to live on, and many men don't make enough to support a wife and family. So the sin sod is a good way of making sure the man is capable of bearing the financial burden that goes with starting a family.

The other thing that I haven't seen mentioned about the sin sod is that in western countries divorce comes very easy for most people. But if someone has to pay till it hurts just to get married, they're not so likely to divorce at the first sign of trouble, as they won't easily be able to marry again due to lack of funds to pay another sin sod.

Being a foreigner, you are expected to pay higher prices for many items in Thailand, and the sin sod is no exception. Like it or not, that's the way it is. So if you're comparing other sin sod amounts, it's only applicable if comparing to other foreigners who have married a girl of similar qualities as your's.

With all that said, don't pay more than you have to, and don't get ripped off. But also if you try too much to negotiate a price that the family thinks is too low, you'll be labeled a cheap charlie and may generate ill will with the family even before the marriage. If you're serious with the girl and certain about her intentions, paying a little more that you'd like to would probably be a wiser decision than to pay too little.

Edited December 5, 2005 by BKK Traveler

[otherstuff1957]

As all of the others have already said, Sin Sot IS a Thai tradition, BUT some THai people have a two tier pricing system.

I paid for my wedding, but nothing for a Sin Sot. My wife was married once before (or possibly twice, depending on how you count husbands ) and had a couple of children already, so no Dowry was due. She mentioned that her niece (A pretty University graduate) would would probably get anywhere from 50,000 to 300,000.

I just asked my wife how much her first husband paid in Sin Sot. She said that her parents were very progressive and cared more about their children being happy than getting money. She ran off to Bangkok with her boyfriend after finishing Matthayom (High School) about 25 years ago. They went back home to Nakhon Sri Thammarat a couple of years later, when she was pregnant, and got married then. Her parents didn't ask for a dowry, just said "Make our daughter happy" (Which he failed to do) and accepted 10,000 baht from him!

She does say, however, that her parents ideas are NOT typical.

[GuestHouse]

It's at this time you need to consider a couple of things.

One is, does she warrant the Price of her Sin Sod?

At Bht1,000,000, I'd be expecting her to be in her mid twenties, well educated, at least a first degree and probably a masters, working in a very good job, earning a good living and in posession of a wide rang of social skills. She'd probably be looking forward to an inheritance at some time in the future (no matter how far in the future - and not yours), she would definately be a virgin.

The second thing to consider, and especially if she doesn't exactly fit the criteria of the first, is you probably now need to introduce the Thai Idea of The Middle Way - Don't be shy about this, it is a truely Thai Cultural belief that we should look for the middle way.

Things that really knock the price down are:

If she is not a virgin - Thai Culture abhores this and slashes the Sin Sod accordingly

If she has already been married 'Mia Maiy' - a spoiled/ruined wife - Thais Culture looks on this pretty poorly and reduces the Sin Sod accordingly - Mia Maiy is obviously not a virgin.

If she already has a child/children - Thai Culture doesn't like this at all - all of the above, and then some.

If she hasn't got that education, well Thais like to overvalue anything that belongs to them, but realism is something you need to hang on to.

If she has no high paying job. Well you are going to have to keep her AND her family, so think of it as Capital Investment now Versus Maintenance Investment later, I'd be looking to reduce the initial outlay.

My observation is, if she is an ordinary Thai girl, from an ordinary Thai family then her family would think themselves extremely fotunate if they received a Sin Sod in excess of Bht100K, Bht200K they'd be blessing the spirrits of a dead relative for helping them out. Anything else and they've been watching too many Thai Soaps ----Or--- They see you as a walking wallet.

You need to set your stall out and if you are marrying into this family you need to agree what is a reasonable expectation of your financial support - Bht1000,000 is A LOT OF MONEY.

Think Very Very Carefully, it is not what you Pay Now, but the Expectation that sets for the Future.

[stickman]

Here is another VERY comprehensive article on dowries in Thailand. It is very strongly against paying it:

http://www.onceisfinetwiceisspam.com/reader/reader2172.htm

Edited December 5, 2005 by cdnvic

[OlRedEyes]

As people have said here and in other threads, a lot depends on the girl. Her education, beauty, intelligence, and background. Just recently I had a friend who got engaged to an upcountry small town girl, and was asked to pay 2 million baht, but negotiated down to 1 million. But the girl is (or at least claims) to be a virgin, is highly intelligent and on her way to getting a university degree, and extremely beautiful (she won first place in the beauty pageant of one of the major cities in Isaan). My guess is that she's the type of girl that would be classified in the top 1% of available girls. In that case, the girl's beauty was probably the most significant factor in the price of her sin sod.

Maybe starting a Saturday morning auction house may be a good business idea...

Wonder what I can get for a slightly second-hand, intelligent, educated, mid-thirties model. A real classic....

Sorry, but I find the whole idea to be totally degrading of the girl.

Edited December 5, 2005 by OlRedEyes

[Neeranam]

Here is another VERY comprehensive article on dowries in Thailand. It is very strongly against paying it:

http://www.onceisfinetwiceisspam.com/reader/reader2172.htm

I can't get that link to work, is it on your website?

[DarwinK]

Dowry From Wikipedia:

"A dowry is a gift of money or valuables given by the bride's family to that of the groom to permit their marriage....A sort of opposite tradition to a dowry is a bride price, paid by bridegroom to family of his bride."

So unless you're the bride or her family, don't pay any dowries!

[astral]

The amount you pay as dowry shows how much you value your wife.

As another poster indicated 1M baht may be the going price but that is exceptional!!

However you may not really be parting with the money.

The wife's parents may give it back as a gift in some way.

In my case it was show for the wedding and I got the whole sum

back later in the day. You will need to discuss this with your future

wife and here family.

[GuestHouse]

I have a pal who was asked for a million Bht Sin Sod, he agreed but not to a cash payment.

He made an agreement that he would buy a house for his wife's parents but that it was to be in his wife's name - He argued that way she would naturally inherit after their death and no arguments would arise. As he said, the house they lived in was rented and this would imediately save money in monthly rent, plus give mum a nice place to live, look good in the village etc.

He got away with it, saved himself paying rent for ever and put a wedge between the avarice of the family and his wife's natural urge to look after her own well being.

A shrewed move in my eyes.

[oopapasan]

Hi all,

Dowries.........

Need some input of opinions of the above; to cut a longer story short........Im seeing this Thai lady and she talks about paying a dowry to her family if we get married. I must say Im not too keen on this 'idea' and wonder what the 'old hands' have to say about it. The amounts discussed are substantial, Bt1,000,000. The whole idea of paying is an anathema to me, but I suppose one way or another 'we' (I will) end up paying anyway.

What I would like to know is: is this a common theme in Thailand or between Thai's? What is the common amount and how does the 'calculation' take place?

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks

Grapetable

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Be aware marriage to a Thai is going to cost you some money.

The first step is to have someone approach the ladies parents to bargain about the cost of the "Tong Mun" and "Sin Sod."

"Tong Mun" which means "gold engagement" is actual 24 karat gold jewelry given to the lady. (Buy in Thailand , because lesser quality gold such as is sold in western countries would be considered as valueless.) The cost of this will vary, but expect it to be around $625.00 US. This is similar to the western engagement ring, which may also be given, but will not be expected.

"Sin Sod" is the marriage price, the word "Sin" means riches, things of value. In the past it might have been farm animals, farm products, land, or some such. Now money is used as the thing of value. "Sod" is the act of storing away, or holding the "Sin". Long ago it could have been keeping the "Sin" if it was a farm animal in a secure fenced area. Now the "Sin" would be likely stored by depositing the money into a bank. The amount will vary due to several factors such as, the social status and wealth of the parents, the education, age, and beauty of the daughter. The cost of the ceremonies, parties, food, etc., will be paid by the parents using part of the Sin Sod.

I understand that as a Westerner you think this sounds like selling ones daughter but the Thai culture has a completely different idea about it. They believe a prospective husband owes them for bringing up the daughter to be a proper lady and wife. Second you are replacing the labor she would have contributed to the family wealth. Third you are demonstrating you have the financial ability to support a family. Thai's are very strict about going along with their culture.

The "Tong Mun" and sometimes the "Sin Sod" will be presented at a betrothal ceremony called a "Phitee Mun," which will take place at the parents home. There may be a small group of family and friends present for the ceremony which involves the introduction of the groom by a friend, giving of the gifts, promises by the groom to take care of the daughter, and acceptance by the parents. You and your lady are now considered to be "Koo Mun" which means "tied or joined couple," (engaged.) Afterward there will be a meal served, and conversation.

Sometime later, it could be the same day, next day, next week, or whatever date set by the "Koo Mun," there will be the actual wedding ceremonies.

The "Bai Sri Soo Kwan" ceremony. The "Bai Sri" is a symbolic ornament put together by the women of the village using banana leaves, rice, flowers, and string. "Soo Kwan" is a sermon given by a village elder. The ceremony concludes by each guest tying a string around the wrist of the bride and of the groom, while giving the married couple their blessings, followed by the placing of a garland of flowers around the couples necks. There will be a meal, music, and "Ram Vong" dancing if there is room.

.....for what it's worth.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[britmaveric]

I concur just a bragging right for families of the bride if done properly.

Also heaps to consider for cost - technically non virgin, married before, or has lil ones running around - nothing should be paid. (damaged goods in eyes of Thai(s). Load of hogwash, but never the less true.)

Another consideration for the most part Thai lady in question is moving up in the world when marrying a farang. This alone can be considered payment enough.

Personally I think its outdated and back arsewards - since in the long run you will be helping out her family when need arises anyways. Me - big party is face enough. If things get silly and demanding - run the other way.

Edited December 5, 2005 by britmaveric

[sriracha john]

Hi all,

Dowries.........

Need some input of opinions of the above; to cut a longer story short........Im seeing this Thai lady and she talks about paying a dowry to her family if we get married. I must say Im not too keen on this 'idea' and wonder what the 'old hands' have to say about it. The amounts discussed are substantial, Bt1,000,000. The whole idea of paying is an anathema to me, but I suppose one way or another 'we' (I will) end up paying anyway.

What I would like to know is: is this a common theme in Thailand or between Thai's? What is the common amount and how does the 'calculation' take place?

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks

Grapetable

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Be aware marriage to a Thai is going to cost you some money.

The first step is to have someone approach the ladies parents to bargain about the cost of the "Tong Mun" and "Sin Sod."

"Tong Mun" which means "gold engagement" is actual 24 karat gold jewelry given to the lady. (Buy in Thailand , because lesser quality gold such as is sold in western countries would be considered as valueless.) The cost of this will vary, but expect it to be around $625.00 US. This is similar to the western engagement ring, which may also be given, but will not be expected.

"Sin Sod" is the marriage price, the word "Sin" means riches, things of value. In the past it might have been farm animals, farm products, land, or some such. Now money is used as the thing of value. "Sod" is the act of storing away, or holding the "Sin". Long ago it could have been keeping the "Sin" if it was a farm animal in a secure fenced area. Now the "Sin" would be likely stored by depositing the money into a bank. The amount will vary due to several factors such as, the social status and wealth of the parents, the education, age, and beauty of the daughter. The cost of the ceremonies, parties, food, etc., will be paid by the parents using part of the Sin Sod.

I understand that as a Westerner you think this sounds like selling ones daughter but the Thai culture has a completely different idea about it. They believe a prospective husband owes them for bringing up the daughter to be a proper lady and wife. Second you are replacing the labor she would have contributed to the family wealth. Third you are demonstrating you have the financial ability to support a family. Thai's are very strict about going along with their culture.

The "Tong Mun" and sometimes the "Sin Sod" will be presented at a betrothal ceremony called a "Phitee Mun," which will take place at the parents home. There may be a small group of family and friends present for the ceremony which involves the introduction of the groom by a friend, giving of the gifts, promises by the groom to take care of the daughter, and acceptance by the parents. You and your lady are now considered to be "Koo Mun" which means "tied or joined couple," (engaged.) Afterward there will be a meal served, and conversation.

Sometime later, it could be the same day, next day, next week, or whatever date set by the "Koo Mun," there will be the actual wedding ceremonies.

The "Bai Sri Soo Kwan" ceremony. The "Bai Sri" is a symbolic ornament put together by the women of the village using banana leaves, rice, flowers, and string. "Soo Kwan" is a sermon given by a village elder. The ceremony concludes by each guest tying a string around the wrist of the bride and of the groom, while giving the married couple their blessings, followed by the placing of a garland of flowers around the couples necks. There will be a meal, music, and "Ram Vong" dancing if there is room.

.....for what it's worth.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nicely spelled out JR...

makes one wonder if the OP is so unaware of something as basic to Thai culture as sin sod, how well this marriage will do. It seems if there is any hope for a culturally diverse marriage, then it is upon the people involved to understand as much as possible about the other person's upbringing and culture. To be so out of the loop would indicate a marriage doomed to failure.

[Thetyim]

Two very good posts from GuestHouse

I hope the OP reads them and thinks again