A Major Concern In Thailand

[deejah]

the saving face culture

often makes it difficult for people to be straight forward and honest

so how can you know:

-when you screw up?

and

-what exactly you did wrong?

and

-how to go about apologizing, correcting it,and making amends?

i have heard of these issues from more than one farang

[Ulysses G.]

I can't usually tell when I screw up with the Thai person I'm closest to - unless I'm aware that I said or did something wrong - and trying to ask what I did or apolgize just makes things worse. I've found that usually just ignoring whatever is bothering this person, until it is forgotten, works best in my situation.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Beetlejuice]

It`s not always about losing face, sometimes it`s about just being tactful when dealing with people.

There are ways of getting a message across without offending anyone using descretion and politeness.

It is having the knack of interacting with people, whether it be at home, friends and in public. This applies everyway, not only in Thailand.

[pattayadingo]

I agree with Ulysees and Beetlejuice on this.

We all make mistakes at times. And the more you accentuate that mistake, by apologising or whatever, the worse it seems to make the situation.

If you make a mistake with people you are close to they will often forgive on the grounds you do not know better

[ARISTIDE]

There should be a class teaching this thing as I still have a lot to learn!

It`s not always about losing face, sometimes it`s about just being tactful when dealing with people.

There are ways of getting a message across without offending anyone using descretion and politeness.

It is having the knack of interacting with people, whether it be at home, friends and in public. This applies everyway, not only in Thailand.

[StreetCowboy]

It's also about not asking questions to which the other person may be obliged to lie.

They will either feel bad about lying, or feel bad that you don't trust them, and you will probably suspect that they are lying because their bad feelings make it difficult for them to answer. And anyway, regardless of the answer, the problem is the lack of trust.

Like so many things, its a catch-22; if you need to ask, it's probably too late, no matter what the answer would have been.

SC

Example: Who broke that plate?

You: Who broke that plate? I'm not angry, I just want to know.

Them: (why do you want to know? I'm sorry, but I don't want to lose face that I broke the plate through my clumsiness or stupidity or whatever) No answer.

You: Was it you (them) or you (other them)

Them: Don't know

Other them: (Wasn't me, but don't want to get anyone else into trouble) Don't know.

I expect Thai people are just like that as well. So there was no point in asking the question, it just made everyone feel bad.

Unless you're a politician, in which case the objective is to make the other person feel bad, so that they behave badly, and look bad. But most of us have more productive things to do with our lives.

SC

[theblether]

There is something implicitly infantile in this " losing face " issue,

I have yet to come across a culture where anyone likes losing face,

However in Asia " Face " has been elevated to an art level, and Thailand is not alone ( and probably not the worst ) in regards to this issue,

In regards to the example given by Streetcowboy it has a comical undertone, I can remember having conversations like that with my toddlers, however in other circumstances it can have fatal consequences, where health and safety issues are swept under the carpet as people cannot have the integrity and honesty to hold up their hands and say......"It's my fault".

[Ijustwannateach]

Maybe some of my experience with students can help with approaching the 'face' issue. As a teacher, I feel it is sometimes required for my role either to make students more aware of their bad behaviour or even to discipline them. Depending on the severity of the problem, I may, in ascending order of firepower:

1. Use humour to tease or make a joke about the problem, though the student(s) will get the message usually.

2. Make a general request which will hopefully be understood by the student(s) who are actually the problem

3. Give a general command which will hopefully be obeyed by the student(s) who aren't with the program

4. Invite specific students to do what they should be (but are not) doing

5. Specifically criticise an individual student's behaviour

6. Suggest that the individual student who isn't cooperating may have a problem with cooperation and/or communication and/or comprehension of language

7. Impose a specific punishment or discipline on a specific student for a behaviour

Levels 6 and 7 are the nuclear scale assaults and I only ever use them if all else fails, and usually for reasons of obvious and blatant disrespect or insubordinate rudeness. However, the reason I can use them so rarely, I believe, is because when levels 1-4 (and 5ish) are used judiciously they solve most of the problems without causing any serious personal repercussions between me and the student.

I have the feeling that, depending on personality, many foreigners here may not use this style of approach in dealing with Thai companions and friends- but I think it is still very important to do so. Retaining levity as far as possible in dealing with conflict and dissatisfaction may sometimes achieve the desired results. Sometimes more pressure may be required, and it might also work if things have be going well in other ways. But to routinely jump to higher levels of intensity in criticism, or to choose to start with the more intense levels (according to the above scale) will simply alienate people, and usually not get you where you'd like to be, either.

Above all, if my students weren't sure that I liked them- which I do, very much- they wouldn't accept my discipline or my criticism at all. I think the foundation of successful critical negotiation with a Thai person- and perhaps with any person- is some feeling of security that the criticism doesn't mean the relationship itself is at risk.

[theblether]

Maybe some of my experience with students can help with approaching the 'face' issue. As a teacher, I feel it is sometimes required for my role either to make students more aware of their bad behaviour or even to discipline them. Depending on the severity of the problem, I may, in ascending order of firepower:

1. Use humour to tease or make a joke about the problem, though the student(s) will get the message usually.

2. Make a general request which will hopefully be understood by the student(s) who are actually the problem

3. Give a general command which will hopefully be obeyed by the student(s) who aren't with the program

4. Invite specific students to do what they should be (but are not) doing

5. Specifically criticise an individual student's behaviour

6. Suggest that the individual student who isn't cooperating may have a problem with cooperation and/or communication and/or comprehension of language

7. Impose a specific punishment or discipline on a specific student for a behaviour

Levels 6 and 7 are the nuclear scale assaults and I only ever use them if all else fails, and usually for reasons of obvious and blatant disrespect or insubordinate rudeness. However, the reason I can use them so rarely, I believe, is because when levels 1-4 (and 5ish) are used judiciously they solve most of the problems without causing any serious personal repercussions between me and the student.

I have the feeling that, depending on personality, many foreigners here may not use this style of approach in dealing with Thai companions and friends- but I think it is still very important to do so. Retaining levity as far as possible in dealing with conflict and dissatisfaction may sometimes achieve the desired results. Sometimes more pressure may be required, and it might also work if things have be going well in other ways. But to routinely jump to higher levels of intensity in criticism, or to choose to start with the more intense levels (according to the above scale) will simply alienate people, and usually not get you where you'd like to be, either.

Above all, if my students weren't sure that I liked them- which I do, very much- they wouldn't accept my discipline or my criticism at all. I think the foundation of successful critical negotiation with a Thai person- and perhaps with any person- is some feeling of security that the criticism doesn't mean the relationship itself is at risk.

Excellent advice and an antidote to many of the farang that I come across who seem to have an attitude that if you don't get what you want by shouting then start screaming.

[KeyserSoze01]

Levels 6 and 7 are the nuclear scale assaults and I only ever use them if all else fails, and usually for reasons of obvious and blatant disrespect or insubordinate rudeness.

Oh how I miss the days of corporal punishment. There was a time when such behavior would find the little darlings on the receiving end of a rap across the knuckles with a ruler by Sister Mary Elizabeth.

[StreetCowboy]

There is something implicitly infantile in this " losing face " issue,

I have yet to come across a culture where anyone likes losing face,

However in Asia " Face " has been elevated to an art level, and Thailand is not alone ( and probably not the worst ) in regards to this issue,

In regards to the example given by Streetcowboy it has a comical undertone, I can remember having conversations like that with my toddlers, however in other circumstances it can have fatal consequences, where health and safety issues are swept under the carpet as people cannot have the integrity and honesty to hold up their hands and say......"It's my fault".

I blame the parents. I've noticed a tendency to look for scape goats and blame others, rather than constructively trying to solve problems pretty much everywhere I've been in Asia (and the UK) which tends to drive towards this sort of behaviour.

SC

[terryq]

Example in case of broken plate...

You, I've just found a broken plate. That's lucky as today there is a guy down at the local Tescos that can analyse the crack patterns and translate them to lucky lottery numbers.

Them, I broke the plate give it to me !!

Result.