Economy 91 Versus 95

[Dakling]

The whole 91 vs 95 debate is kinda wonky. All the numbers relate to is an octane rating which is only important to ensure high compression engines don't start knocking.

The only real differences between 91 and 95 benzene are: #1 95 is a bitch to find and almost no one in Thailand uses it so there is more likely hood you will have water or other contaminants; #2 if you have a higher compression bike (or a bike in a very poor state of tune), 95 will prevent knocking (pre-detonation) at temperature and under load. If your bike doesn't require high octane fuel you are wasting your money buying it. Don't get snowed by all the engine cleaning additive BS claims as well they do nothing to help a properly maintained bike. If you do notice a difference in performance due to fuel and you are running allowed fuel for your bike, 90% of the time you got a bad tankful, you ran ethanol at a higher percent than normal or your bike needs a tune up.

Messing with your ignition advance and using things like a power commander may require a switch to 95 if you start to have knocking issues. Granted I think pretty much all modern bikes have anti-knock sensors so you may not even know that the EFI has retarded your timing to prevent knock. That's about the only way I would imagine you would see a hp decrease. A heavily modified bike(shaved heads etc.) or poorly tuned bike or one with adjusted advance timing may need a higher octane than the manufacturer recommended but other than those examples, upping octane is generally a waste of $.

could you mention at least 5 bikes available in Th with a knock sensor?

and could you explain why most countries in Europe do not have petrol less than 95RON any more?

As far as 5 bikes in Thailand with anti-knock sensors goes, my guess is that there are many more than 5. Personally I only know that the CBR600rr, the CBR1000rr and the new monster BMW have one. My guess is that the GSXR, R1 and ZX all have them. Granted the Fazer in question likely doesn't and no non EFI bikes will have them (unless they are aftermarket additions). Does my Honda click have one? Hell I don't know and I don't care. I almost never run it wide open and it never seems to run hot and it is a low compression/low performance engine so why would I ever get detonation unless I completely bugger the ignition timing which aint easy to do anyhow.

Regarding the 95RON in Europe, how the hell should I know why it is required in Europe, it is likely a regulatory/emmisions thing. They may have a minimum 10% ethanol content rule as well for all I know, which would increase the RON number. This is because ethanol is an anti knock, octane increasing fuel but it has less chemical energy available per litre. You get about 3-4% less chemical energy per litre on a 10% ethanol blend than you do on full benzene fuel despite the higher octane. In other words if your vehicle can not advance timing (EFI with anti-knock) or compression (turbo+EFI+anti-knock) in order to take advantage of the higher octane you will generally lose 3-5% fuel economy on ethanol blends.

For a good commentary on octane ratings and other fuel issues .....

www.fuelsaving.info/fuels.htm

Edited February 16, 2012 by Dakling

[katabeachbum]

The whole 91 vs 95 debate is kinda wonky. All the numbers relate to is an octane rating which is only important to ensure high compression engines don't start knocking.

The only real differences between 91 and 95 benzene are: #1 95 is a bitch to find and almost no one in Thailand uses it so there is more likely hood you will have water or other contaminants; #2 if you have a higher compression bike (or a bike in a very poor state of tune), 95 will prevent knocking (pre-detonation) at temperature and under load. If your bike doesn't require high octane fuel you are wasting your money buying it. Don't get snowed by all the engine cleaning additive BS claims as well they do nothing to help a properly maintained bike. If you do notice a difference in performance due to fuel and you are running allowed fuel for your bike, 90% of the time you got a bad tankful, you ran ethanol at a higher percent than normal or your bike needs a tune up.

Messing with your ignition advance and using things like a power commander may require a switch to 95 if you start to have knocking issues. Granted I think pretty much all modern bikes have anti-knock sensors so you may not even know that the EFI has retarded your timing to prevent knock. That's about the only way I would imagine you would see a hp decrease. A heavily modified bike(shaved heads etc.) or poorly tuned bike or one with adjusted advance timing may need a higher octane than the manufacturer recommended but other than those examples, upping octane is generally a waste of $.

could you mention at least 5 bikes available in Th with a knock sensor?

and could you explain why most countries in Europe do not have petrol less than 95RON any more?

As far as 5 bikes in Thailand with anti-knock sensors goes, my guess is that there are many more than 5. Personally I only know that the CBR600rr, the CBR1000rr and the new monster BMW have one. My guess is that the GSXR, R1 and ZX all have them. Granted the Fazer in question likely doesn't and no non EFI bikes will have them (unless they are aftermarket additions). Does my Honda click have one? Hell I don't know and I don't care. I almost never run it wide open and it never seems to run hot and it is a low compression/low performance engine so why would I ever get detonation unless I completely bugger the ignition timing which aint easy to do anyhow.

Regarding the 95RON in Europe, how the hell should I know why it is required in Europe, it is likely a regulatory/emmisions thing. They may have a minimum 10% ethanol content rule as well for all I know, which would increase the RON number. This is because ethanol is an anti knock, octane increasing fuel but it has less chemical energy available per litre. You get about 3-4% less chemical energy per litre on a 10% ethanol blend than you do on full benzene fuel despite the higher octane. In other words if your vehicle can not advance timing (EFI with anti-knock) or compression (turbo+EFI+anti-knock) in order to take advantage of the higher octane you will generally lose 3-5% fuel economy on ethanol blends.

For a good commentary on octane ratings and other fuel issues .....

www.fuelsaving.info/fuels.htm

dont know about your click, but my pcx has 11:01 compression, wouldnt call that low

as far as I know ethanol blends are not common in Europe, and 95 RON is the lowest octane available in most markets, as most Euro cars require 95-98RON. Power wanted, clean emission wanted.

[Gary A]

My Yamaha Elegance has a green 91 sticker on the gas cap. Our small village has no gasohol at all so I use the regular 91. The next larger village has no 91 gasohol but they do have 95 gasohol. I use whatever is available and can't tell any difference. I just putt around normally not over 70 KMH and all seem to give me over 40 KPL. On occasion when we go to a city, I will buy jug of 91 gasohol. I also can't tell any difference between different brands.

[mcgriffith]

The whole 91 vs 95 debate is kinda wonky. All the numbers relate to is an octane rating which is only important to ensure high compression engines don't start knocking.

The only real differences between 91 and 95 benzene are: #1 95 is a bitch to find and almost no one in Thailand uses it so there is more likely hood you will have water or other contaminants; #2 if you have a higher compression bike (or a bike in a very poor state of tune), 95 will prevent knocking (pre-detonation) at temperature and under load. If your bike doesn't require high octane fuel you are wasting your money buying it. Don't get snowed by all the engine cleaning additive BS claims as well they do nothing to help a properly maintained bike. If you do notice a difference in performance due to fuel and you are running allowed fuel for your bike, 90% of the time you got a bad tankful, you ran ethanol at a higher percent than normal or your bike needs a tune up.

Messing with your ignition advance and using things like a power commander may require a switch to 95 if you start to have knocking issues. Granted I think pretty much all modern bikes have anti-knock sensors so you may not even know that the EFI has retarded your timing to prevent knock. That's about the only way I would imagine you would see a hp decrease. A heavily modified bike(shaved heads etc.) or poorly tuned bike or one with adjusted advance timing may need a higher octane than the manufacturer recommended but other than those examples, upping octane is generally a waste of $.

could you mention at least 5 bikes available in Th with a knock sensor?

and could you explain why most countries in Europe do not have petrol less than 95RON any more?

As far as 5 bikes in Thailand with anti-knock sensors goes, my guess is that there are many more than 5. Personally I only know that the CBR600rr, the CBR1000rr and the new monster BMW have one. My guess is that the GSXR, R1 and ZX all have them. Granted the Fazer in question likely doesn't and no non EFI bikes will have them (unless they are aftermarket additions). Does my Honda click have one? Hell I don't know and I don't care. I almost never run it wide open and it never seems to run hot and it is a low compression/low performance engine so why would I ever get detonation unless I completely bugger the ignition timing which aint easy to do anyhow.

Regarding the 95RON in Europe, how the hell should I know why it is required in Europe, it is likely a regulatory/emmisions thing. They may have a minimum 10% ethanol content rule as well for all I know, which would increase the RON number. This is because ethanol is an anti knock, octane increasing fuel but it has less chemical energy available per litre. You get about 3-4% less chemical energy per litre on a 10% ethanol blend than you do on full benzene fuel despite the higher octane. In other words if your vehicle can not advance timing (EFI with anti-knock) or compression (turbo+EFI+anti-knock) in order to take advantage of the higher octane you will generally lose 3-5% fuel economy on ethanol blends.

For a good commentary on octane ratings and other fuel issues .....

www.fuelsaving.info/fuels.htm

Spot on, Dakling.

But you are probably wasting your time, as most motorheads worldwide have been brainwashed into believed high octane=high performance.

If one has a race bike with a 11.5 to 1 compression ratio, operated at 90 to 100 % throttle always, there is no doubt that a high octane fuel is mandatory.

What is hard is convincing people with tuned sportbikes, never mind the compression ratio, who largly drive on the road, not the track....that high octane fuel is not only a waste of money, but also a contributor to excessive carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. I'll post some pictures later when I can dig them up demonstrating this from a friend of mine who is a tuner and race shop owner in the US.

91 benzene produces more energy and horsepower than 91 gasahol.

95 benzene is better fuel than 91 benzene, if you are pretty much wide-open and laying black stripes out of every corner, all the time. Very limited availability in Thailand, at least where I live (Pure, maybe sometimes)

95 gasahol is probably about in the same energy output range as the 91 benzene...but costs a lot more.

As I doubt most people do the latter (laying black stripes out of every corner), save some money and buy 91 benzene.

Unless your engine is demonstrating preignition or knocking, you will get more horsepower and all around driveability, with less carbon in the engine with 91 benzene.

I am sure that some are so set in their ways that my statement will seem like heresy. That's fine; I was also once convinced that I needed race gas in my RSV-R Factory, which was highly tuned with custom map, etc., for street use.

When I ran normal 91 octane gasahol- the bike ran better cleaner and crisper response. In California all gas is gasahol; 91 was the lowest I could go with this bike. The bike had a 11.2 to 1 compression ratio.

As for the engine knock sensor question- I would be surprised if my CBR 250, which is certified to run on 95 E10/E20, 91 E10, and 91 benzene, did not have a knock sensor and myriad other sensors to manage the fuel mapping. How else would it manage to compensate for all these manufacturer-recommended fuels?

Just my 25 satang.

[wana]

The whole 91 vs 95 debate is kinda wonky. All the numbers relate to is an octane rating which is only important to ensure high compression engines don't start knocking.

The only real differences between 91 and 95 benzene are: #1 95 is a bitch to find and almost no one in Thailand uses it so there is more likely hood you will have water or other contaminants; #2 if you have a higher compression bike (or a bike in a very poor state of tune), 95 will prevent knocking (pre-detonation) at temperature and under load. If your bike doesn't require high octane fuel you are wasting your money buying it. Don't get snowed by all the engine cleaning additive BS claims as well they do nothing to help a properly maintained bike. If you do notice a difference in performance due to fuel and you are running allowed fuel for your bike, 90% of the time you got a bad tankful, you ran ethanol at a higher percent than normal or your bike needs a tune up.

Messing with your ignition advance and using things like a power commander may require a switch to 95 if you start to have knocking issues. Granted I think pretty much all modern bikes have anti-knock sensors so you may not even know that the EFI has retarded your timing to prevent knock. That's about the only way I would imagine you would see a hp decrease. A heavily modified bike(shaved heads etc.) or poorly tuned bike or one with adjusted advance timing may need a higher octane than the manufacturer recommended but other than those examples, upping octane is generally a waste of $.

could you mention at least 5 bikes available in Th with a knock sensor?

and could you explain why most countries in Europe do not have petrol less than 95RON any more?

As far as 5 bikes in Thailand with anti-knock sensors goes, my guess is that there are many more than 5. Personally I only know that the CBR600rr, the CBR1000rr and the new monster BMW have one. My guess is that the GSXR, R1 and ZX all have them. Granted the Fazer in question likely doesn't and no non EFI bikes will have them (unless they are aftermarket additions). Does my Honda click have one? Hell I don't know and I don't care. I almost never run it wide open and it never seems to run hot and it is a low compression/low performance engine so why would I ever get detonation unless I completely bugger the ignition timing which aint easy to do anyhow.

Regarding the 95RON in Europe, how the hell should I know why it is required in Europe, it is likely a regulatory/emmisions thing. They may have a minimum 10% ethanol content rule as well for all I know, which would increase the RON number. This is because ethanol is an anti knock, octane increasing fuel but it has less chemical energy available per litre. You get about 3-4% less chemical energy per litre on a 10% ethanol blend than you do on full benzene fuel despite the higher octane. In other words if your vehicle can not advance timing (EFI with anti-knock) or compression (turbo+EFI+anti-knock) in order to take advantage of the higher octane you will generally lose 3-5% fuel economy on ethanol blends.

For a good commentary on octane ratings and other fuel issues .....

www.fuelsaving.info/fuels.htm

As for the engine knock sensor question- I would be surprised if my CBR 250, which is certified to run on 95 E10/E20, 91 E10, and 91 benzene, did not have a knock sensor and myriad other sensors to manage the fuel mapping. How else would it manage to compensate for all these manufacturer-recommended fuels?

are you sure honda "certified " the cbr 250r to run on E20 ? i bought one from a large dealer in bkk and whe the guys were getting it ready for the road the head mechanic came over and told me to use only BENZINE to get the best life of the bike and no problems

i told him i only buy benzine anyway .for all my bikes and he said thats the best idea

ive put e10 i them sometimes if i cant find regular gas but ive never had the cahones to use e20

even on the tank is printed e-10 and in the manual says gasohol 91 or higher (e10 again)

is anyone using e20 regularly in their cbr250r ?

[mcgriffith]

[wana]

those stickers are benzine 91 ,gasohol 91 and gasohol 95 unless my eyes are mistaken they are non E20 fuels ??

[katabeachbum]

The whole 91 vs 95 debate is kinda wonky. All the numbers relate to is an octane rating which is only important to ensure high compression engines don't start knocking.

The only real differences between 91 and 95 benzene are: #1 95 is a bitch to find and almost no one in Thailand uses it so there is more likely hood you will have water or other contaminants; #2 if you have a higher compression bike (or a bike in a very poor state of tune), 95 will prevent knocking (pre-detonation) at temperature and under load. If your bike doesn't require high octane fuel you are wasting your money buying it. Don't get snowed by all the engine cleaning additive BS claims as well they do nothing to help a properly maintained bike. If you do notice a difference in performance due to fuel and you are running allowed fuel for your bike, 90% of the time you got a bad tankful, you ran ethanol at a higher percent than normal or your bike needs a tune up.

Messing with your ignition advance and using things like a power commander may require a switch to 95 if you start to have knocking issues. Granted I think pretty much all modern bikes have anti-knock sensors so you may not even know that the EFI has retarded your timing to prevent knock. That's about the only way I would imagine you would see a hp decrease. A heavily modified bike(shaved heads etc.) or poorly tuned bike or one with adjusted advance timing may need a higher octane than the manufacturer recommended but other than those examples, upping octane is generally a waste of $.

could you mention at least 5 bikes available in Th with a knock sensor?

and could you explain why most countries in Europe do not have petrol less than 95RON any more?

As far as 5 bikes in Thailand with anti-knock sensors goes, my guess is that there are many more than 5. Personally I only know that the CBR600rr, the CBR1000rr and the new monster BMW have one. My guess is that the GSXR, R1 and ZX all have them. Granted the Fazer in question likely doesn't and no non EFI bikes will have them (unless they are aftermarket additions). Does my Honda click have one? Hell I don't know and I don't care. I almost never run it wide open and it never seems to run hot and it is a low compression/low performance engine so why would I ever get detonation unless I completely bugger the ignition timing which aint easy to do anyhow.

Regarding the 95RON in Europe, how the hell should I know why it is required in Europe, it is likely a regulatory/emmisions thing. They may have a minimum 10% ethanol content rule as well for all I know, which would increase the RON number. This is because ethanol is an anti knock, octane increasing fuel but it has less chemical energy available per litre. You get about 3-4% less chemical energy per litre on a 10% ethanol blend than you do on full benzene fuel despite the higher octane. In other words if your vehicle can not advance timing (EFI with anti-knock) or compression (turbo+EFI+anti-knock) in order to take advantage of the higher octane you will generally lose 3-5% fuel economy on ethanol blends.

For a good commentary on octane ratings and other fuel issues .....

www.fuelsaving.info/fuels.htm

Spot on, Dakling.

But you are probably wasting your time, as most motorheads worldwide have been brainwashed into believed high octane=high performance.

If one has a race bike with a 11.5 to 1 compression ratio, operated at 90 to 100 % throttle always, there is no doubt that a high octane fuel is mandatory.

What is hard is convincing people with tuned sportbikes, never mind the compression ratio, who largly drive on the road, not the track....that high octane fuel is not only a waste of money, but also a contributor to excessive carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. I'll post some pictures later when I can dig them up demonstrating this from a friend of mine who is a tuner and race shop owner in the US.

91 benzene produces more energy and horsepower than 91 gasahol.

95 benzene is better fuel than 91 benzene, if you are pretty much wide-open and laying black stripes out of every corner, all the time. Very limited availability in Thailand, at least where I live (Pure, maybe sometimes)

95 gasahol is probably about in the same energy output range as the 91 benzene...but costs a lot more.

As I doubt most people do the latter (laying black stripes out of every corner), save some money and buy 91 benzene.

Unless your engine is demonstrating preignition or knocking, you will get more horsepower and all around driveability, with less carbon in the engine with 91 benzene.

I am sure that some are so set in their ways that my statement will seem like heresy. That's fine; I was also once convinced that I needed race gas in my RSV-R Factory, which was highly tuned with custom map, etc., for street use.

When I ran normal 91 octane gasahol- the bike ran better cleaner and crisper response. In California all gas is gasahol; 91 was the lowest I could go with this bike. The bike had a 11.2 to 1 compression ratio.

As for the engine knock sensor question- I would be surprised if my CBR 250, which is certified to run on 95 E10/E20, 91 E10, and 91 benzene, did not have a knock sensor and myriad other sensors to manage the fuel mapping. How else would it manage to compensate for all these manufacturer-recommended fuels?

Just my 25 satang.

welcome as a global mod, havent noticed you before

however above is mostly b-shit info

a simple 125cc pcx with 11:1 compression runs gasohol 91 , the cheapest low octane available in TH

in comparison euro high specs require 98 petrol to perform as designed, however knock sensor make them abel to run less quality fuel, and when doing so need to detune

my general advice is, run the fuel your bike requires. anything better/more expensive will not return any better perfomance or milage

as for your 250 thumper, the mentioned fuels are very similar, so all accepted without major change in injection, ignition, and thus performance or milage. the "better " fuels simply a waste of money

if your 250 thumper had a knock sensor, it would return a significant increase in power and milage running better fuel. It does not. High end Euros do.

[mcgriffith]

those stickers are benzine 91 ,gasohol 91 and gasohol 95 unless my eyes are mistaken they are non E20 fuels ??

Click on the image to blow up to screen size.

95 E10/E20

91 E10

91 benzene

[katabeachbum]

those stickers are benzine 91 ,gasohol 91 and gasohol 95 unless my eyes are mistaken they are non E20 fuels ??

Click on the image to blow up to screen size.

95 E10/E20

91 E10

91 benzene

and without doubt, if your 250 thumper was fuel adaptive, it would perfom much better on 95 petrol than 91 gasohol.

[wana]

those stickers are benzine 91 ,gasohol 91 and gasohol 95 unless my eyes are mistaken they are non E20 fuels ??

Click on the image to blow up to screen size.

95 E10/E20

91 E10

91 benzene

my appologies sir ,i thought the top one was gasohol 95 only

thats cool if honda gives it the green light ,is anyone using the stuff regularly or even tried a full tank to test the milage and power of e20 ?

[katabeachbum]

those stickers are benzine 91 ,gasohol 91 and gasohol 95 unless my eyes are mistaken they are non E20 fuels ??

Click on the image to blow up to screen size.

95 E10/E20

91 E10

91 benzene

my appologies sir ,i thought the top one was gasohol 95 only

thats cool if honda gives it the green light ,is anyone using the stuff regularly or even tried a full tank to test the milage and power of e20 ?

what honda ap says, and some others, is that the bike can survive E20 for as long as the warranty is valid, and if not they pay for the repair

In my 2008 Accord, did 70k km in 14 months so wanted to know milage and performance with different fuels, no knock sensor of course as in most vehicles, 95RON E20 performed worse and worse milage, so 95E10 became the chosen fuel for those 70k km

[mcgriffith]

KBB, I think you have completely misread my post. Go back and read it a little more closely, with focus.

I am an advocate for 91 benzene for street use, even in tuned sportbikes, when ridden in normal day to day riding conditions.

I advocate 95 benzene for highly tuned sportbikes, if ridden at 90-100% (as in track use).

I don't recommend gasahol at all, except maybe 95 E10, if one cannot find 91 benzene.

For the record, I ran VP Fuels 110 octane in my GSX-R 1000 track bike, if that makes you feel any better.

[katabeachbum]

KBB, I think you have completely misread my post. Go back and read it a little more closely, with focus. I am an advocate for 91 benzene for street use, even in tuned sportbikes, when ridden in normal day to day riding conditions. I advocate 95 benzene for highly tuned sportbikes, if ridden at 90-100% (as in track use). I don't recommend gasahol at all, except maybe 95 E10, if one cannot find 91 benzene. For the record, I ran VP Fuels 110 octane in my GSX-R 1000 track bike, if that makes you feel any better.

Not sure when LIK arrived, but I recomend to use the fuel maker advices, and for most Euro vehicles thats 95-98RON some Th makers/importers on occasions stretch the vehicles fuel compability, as being ables to run E20 reduces excicetax, and claiming E85 compability reduces it even more

Edit . cool you edited your post, my name, before I replyed

[wana]

cbr 250r warranty is 30,000 km or 3 years ,id love to see a bike run on e20 for 3 solid years to to see if it gets nackered faster than lesh harsh petrol

[katabeachbum]

cbr 250r warranty is 30,000 km or 3 years ,id love to see a bike run on e20 for 3 solid years to to see if it gets nackered faster than lesh harsh petrol

I assume they have tryed that. doesnt make it survive 5 years/ 100k km

e20 is agressive stuff, ford and volvo uses the same 2,0 4 pot 145hp developed by yamaha. ford Th claims e20 compability, volvo Th settles at E10, both 95RON.

Volvo is a pioneer in TH on E85, but when a vehicle cant handle E20, they dare to say so, and pay some 80k baht more excicetax for each unit to keep their name clean

[IanForbes]

My D-Tracker says right on the fuel cap... 91. But, there are two 91 choices: 91 green and 91 red. I try to get the 91 red because it's more expensive and I guessed it had less gashol. Am I right? Bikes use so little fuel anyway that it doesn't bother me to pay more. But, I DO want what is best for the bike.

[katabeachbum]

My D-Tracker says right on the fuel cap... 91. But, there are two 91 choices: 91 green and 91 red. I try to get the 91 red because it's more expensive and I guessed it had less gashol. Am I right? Bikes use so little fuel anyway that it doesn't bother me to pay more. But, I DO want what is best for the bike.

91 red can not harm your bike.

91 green gasohol E10 can, we dont know yet until its 5-20 years old

[mcgriffith]

My D-Tracker says right on the fuel cap... 91. But, there are two 91 choices: 91 green and 91 red. I try to get the 91 red because it's more expensive and I guessed it had less gashol. Am I right? Bikes use so little fuel anyway that it doesn't bother me to pay more. But, I DO want what is best for the bike.

Ian, 91 red is pure 91 octane gasoline, as we north americans term it. No ethanol content at all.

Green 91 is 10% ethanol, otherwise called 91 E10.

[katabeachbum]

My D-Tracker says right on the fuel cap... 91. But, there are two 91 choices: 91 green and 91 red. I try to get the 91 red because it's more expensive and I guessed it had less gashol. Am I right? Bikes use so little fuel anyway that it doesn't bother me to pay more. But, I DO want what is best for the bike.

Ian, 91 red is pure 91 octane gasoline, as we north americans term it. No ethanol content at all.

Green 91 is 10% ethanol, otherwise called 91 E10.

green 91 contains 10% ethanol, and is called 91 E10, 91 Gasohol and Shell TH calls it 91 V-Power

[IanForbes]

Thanks. I'll continue using the 91 red unless it's unavailable. The tank of green won't last long enough to hurt the machine if I go back to red when I can.