A Lightbulb Went Off About Thai Culture...

[Berkshire]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?

Don't tell me. You know this because this is what you heard? Answer me one question: Why do we have so many idiot farangs in Thailand?

[StreetCowboy]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?

to be honest, I have never worked for admiration, but rather for fun and money; though I do appreciate the praise of my customers, my boss and my colleagues, but in general the truest praise I've ever had is the offer of more work.

SC

[samsiam]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?

Don't tell me. You know this because this is what you heard? Answer me one question: Why do we have so many idiot farangs in Thailand?

nah...cos he saw the ex ooops...current PM doing it....and numerous politicians....oh and the police force...

To answer your second question.....to improve the iq rate.

[pauljones]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?

Don't tell me. You know this because this is what you heard? Answer me one question: Why do we have so many idiot farangs in Thailand?

I owned 2 business in Thailand.

[sirineou]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?

Don't tell me. You know this because this is what you heard? Answer me one question: Why do we have so many idiot farangs in Thailand?

I often wonder the same my self, I am not being flippant, nor do I consider my self a great intellect

but this is a serious question.

When reading this and other Thai forums, one has to wonder.

I have meet a great many reasonable intelligent farangs, in Thailand and on this , and other forums, and on my time of need,they were very helpful, and for that I will always be grateful. But I flip through the posts,and replies, and I am amazed by the preponderance of idiocy .

I have lived and worked in many places in the world, and nowhere have I seen such behavior.

Or is it that in Thailand the idiots are the must vocal?

[pauljones]

Getting the job done is not a priority.

Exploiting your position for personal gains is on top of the list.

2nd on the list is having fun.

Now you know.

[StreetCowboy]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?

Don't tell me. You know this because this is what you heard? Answer me one question: Why do we have so many idiot farangs in Thailand?

I often wonder the same my self, I am not being flippant, nor do I consider my self a great intellect

but this is a serious question.

When reading this and other Thai forums, one has to wonder.

I have meet a great many reasonable intelligent farangs, in Thailand and on this , and other forums, and on my time of need,they were very helpful, and for that I will always be grateful. But I flip through the posts,and replies, and I am amazed by the preponderance of idiocy .

I have lived and worked in many places in the world, and nowhere have I seen such behavior.

Or is it that in Thailand the idiots are the must vocal?

You need to get out more. The standard of debate and discussion on TV leaves most other fora I've seen standing. To be fair, I think it is the relative absence of children who enjoy swearing. And probably that all the old codgers here type so slowly that they have plenty of time to think by the time they get to the end of their message...

SC

[Berkshire]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?

Don't tell me. You know this because this is what you heard? Answer me one question: Why do we have so many idiot farangs in Thailand?

I owned 2 business in Thailand.

I see. How many businesses are there in Thailand? Several thousand. And you indict all working Thais because of, what, a dozen or so employees, tops? It's these kinds of racist sentiments that annoys me. But hey, believe what you will.

[StreetCowboy]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?

Don't tell me. You know this because this is what you heard? Answer me one question: Why do we have so many idiot farangs in Thailand?

I owned 2 business in Thailand.

I see. How many businesses are there in Thailand? Several thousand. And you indict all working Thais because of, what, a dozen or so employees, tops? It's these kinds of racist sentiments that annoys me. But hey, believe what you will.

So we conclude that within his businesses, the people that stole the most were most admired. That wasn't the case in the company I worked for, though that was an international company that went out of its way to attract staff with a high level of integrity. I suppose management has some contribution to the culture of the company; though they cannot dictate it, they can influence it - though perhaps not in the way that they would like.

I would concur that social-bonding activities were given a higher priority than I was accustomed to in the UK.

SC

[Kilgore Trout]

It's true. They would never question a doctor or anyone in a similar position. They're scared of them. I'm guessing you're saying they're completely incompetent . I think it's true that 85 to 90% of the workforce anywhere are that way. I don't think they care,

I questioned a doctor the other day....he ignored my comments 3 times...the fourth time he got testy with me....I got testy with him...he got more testy with me and I called him a f'in idiot.....I am not thai, never will be and do not care about losing face...in fact I revel in it.

I can relate; once got a bogus diagnosis from a doctor (this is at the "best" hospital in Bkk), went to the same office saw another doctor and told him about the other doctor, and suggested he look at my file/consult the other doctor.

His answer; "we don't do that here." When I questioned him, he got very, very angry. I was in utter disbelief.

[CaitlinHappyMeal]

I’m only looking for replies from people who have lived and worked in Thailand. If you’ve only visited Thailand as a tourist or only retired here, please don’t reply to this thread. I’m also not looking for replies from the rose-colored glasses brigade.

I’ve lived and worked here for almost 10 years and until tonight I thought I had a decent understanding of Thai culture, but recent events at work have left me looking for more answers. A lightbulb came on in my head tonight that has helped me understand the way things are here a lot more.

Management issued a directive that is completely impossible to carry out, not just for foreign staff but Thai staff as well. Amazingly, no Thai’s spoke up about it to management, but individually they acknowledged how ridiculous it really is. I finally realized that management stating something that looks better on paper (for example, setting goals that are a thousand times greater than is actually feasible) is far more important than saying something that is actually reasonable and do-able to over a hundred employees. Looking like a complete fool and requesting something everyone including them knows is impossible, is actually more desirable to management than setting reasonable targets. For the Thai staff, not saying the wrong thing, like speaking up to management, is far more important than having reasonable assignments to work on. So basically, what we have at my company is management requesting something they know is impossible. The employees also know it’s unachievable, but everyone just carries on doing their own thing and nobody says anything. Again, saying something that looks good and not saying the wrong thing is far more important to management than looking like a fool because everyone knows what you’re saying is ridiculous.

Further analysing this, I came to the conclusion that a lifetime of this behavior (from the early grades at school to a professional career) most likely leads to extreme incompetence. If you’ve grown up just having to say the right thing, doing anything you want because no one will correct you (not saying the wrong thing leads to no consequences), you really never become an expert at anything at the top levels of society (like running a gov’t), and completely incompetent at most daily activities at the lower level (like driving a car).

Going deeper, growing up in this environment breeds personality traits such as greed, lack of honestly and integrity, not taking things seriously, always wanting to have fun, and also leads to bottling up negative emotions due to lack of outlets. Often you can't say what you really want to, have to tow the line at all costs, not only at work but often in personal relationships too.

Knowing this, I hope in the future I’ll be able to laugh it off the next time management asks me to do something that is completely impossible. I’ll also understand the next time I watch the Thai staff say what a great idea and carry on doing the exact opposite. This also extends to the next time the gov’t makes an absolutely stupid announcement. Saying you're doing something that looks good is more important than actually doing the right thing (often those two things are exact opposites).

Yes, I actually do feel a bit better now after getting that out. This analysis has helped me to understand many events that have not only happened at work, but also while living here.

Its taken you 10 years to realise this? I think maybe you are a lovely person who likes to see the good in everyone and everything, sadly it is not realistic, look for the flaws in everything and then you truly know what you are dealing with 😔

[ExpatJ]

In general i have found the farangs in Thailand to have far less integrity and be more dishonest, greedy and lazy than Thais.

You must hang out in some interesting low life slums......

Yea, that's why I try to avoid places infested with too many farangs. As you say...slums.

Not really- but if there are two companies in the same line of buisness i have learnt to use the one that is thai owned/run rather than the farang owned//run business because i find the thais to be more reliable/trust worthy than farang business people in Thailand.

[sirineou]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?

Don't tell me. You know this because this is what you heard? Answer me one question: Why do we have so many idiot farangs in Thailand?

I often wonder the same my self, I am not being flippant, nor do I consider my self a great intellect

but this is a serious question.

When reading this and other Thai forums, one has to wonder.

I have meet a great many reasonable intelligent farangs, in Thailand and on this , and other forums, and on my time of need,they were very helpful, and for that I will always be grateful. But I flip through the posts,and replies, and I am amazed by the preponderance of idiocy .

I have lived and worked in many places in the world, and nowhere have I seen such behavior.

Or is it that in Thailand the idiots are the must vocal?

You need to get out more. The standard of debate and discussion on TV leaves most other fora I've seen standing. To be fair, I think it is the relative absence of children who enjoy swearing. And probably that all the old codgers here type so slowly that they have plenty of time to think by the time they get to the end of their message...

SC

I agree with you that TV is by far the best Thai based forum, partly because of it's members as you have mentioned, and partly because of it's moderating.

My observation ,also reflected by others, on an other new tread about Thai expat cynicism, was directed at the intellectual level of the average Thai poster as opposed to the average poster in other expat forums based in other countries. I was thinking out loud, not a very well formed thought, but a valid one, in my opinion.

Notice I said on the average, There is value to this and other forum, with many good threads, , a lot of good information, and a lot of good replies,which is why I keep coming back to this forum,but also has more of it's fare share of stupidity, I dont know perhapse I am contributing on that end don't know it.

[NanLaew]

In general i have found the farangs in Thailand to have far less integrity and be more dishonest, greedy and lazy than Thais.

You must hang out in some interesting low life slums......

Yup, the furreners that hang out upstairs at NEP tend to be more elevated than the ones on the ground floor circuit.

[NanLaew]

It's true. They would never question a doctor or anyone in a similar position. They're scared of them. I'm guessing you're saying they're completely incompetent . I think it's true that 85 to 90% of the workforce anywhere are that way. I don't think they care,

I questioned a doctor the other day....he ignored my comments 3 times...the fourth time he got testy with me....I got testy with him...he got more testy with me and I called him a f'in idiot.....I am not thai, never will be and do not care about losing face...in fact I revel in it.

I can relate; once got a bogus diagnosis from a doctor (this is at the "best" hospital in Bkk), went to the same office saw another doctor and told him about the other doctor, and suggested he look at my file/consult the other doctor.

His answer; "we don't do that here." When I questioned him, he got very, very angry. I was in utter disbelief.

OK, so the mechanic did a crap job and you asked for a second opinion... from another mechanic in the same garage?

Unbelievable!

[ludditeman]

As long as they keep paying your wage, why would your care, just follow the easy path.

[CaptHaddock]

It's true. They would never question a doctor or anyone in a similar position. They're scared of them. I'm guessing you're saying they're completely incompetent . I think it's true that 85 to 90% of the workforce anywhere are that way. I don't think they care,

I questioned a doctor the other day....he ignored my comments 3 times...the fourth time he got testy with me....I got testy with him...he got more testy with me and I called him a f'in idiot.....I am not thai, never will be and do not care about losing face...in fact I revel in it.

Good for you. This guy is working for you, after all.

[tutsiwarrior]

At the rist of being labelled an apologist, I don't see this as being a particularly Thai cultural characteristic. I've worked all across Asia, and it's Asian-wide.

+1...the vietnamese and the indonesian managers that I've worked with were similarly insufferable...but, while the indonesians were corrupt and incompetent the viet engineers actually had some smarts...

the worst scenario is when the western manager who upon hearing of the asian manager's dissatisfaction presumes that the western staff are responsible and then comes flapping and yelling that the entire western complement are doing things all wrong...he can't get his nose out of the asian manager's backside to do a proper evaluation of performance...

<snip!> that, I'm going back to the desert...peace, tranquility and allahu akbar...

Edited February 26, 2012 by metisdead
Profanity removed.

[KeyserSoze01]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?

Don't tell me. You know this because this is what you heard? Answer me one question: Why do we have so many idiot farangs in Thailand?

I owned 2 business in Thailand.

I see. How many businesses are there in Thailand? Several thousand. And you indict all working Thais because of, what, a dozen or so employees, tops? It's these kinds of racist sentiments that annoys me. But hey, believe what you will.

I fail to see where Paul's statements are racist in any way. He is merely sharing his observations as a business owner. Accept or not, that's your business.

BTW, how many Thai employees do you employ and manage?

[KeyserSoze01]

It's true. They would never question a doctor or anyone in a similar position. They're scared of them. I'm guessing you're saying they're completely incompetent . I think it's true that 85 to 90% of the workforce anywhere are that way. I don't think they care,

I questioned a doctor the other day....he ignored my comments 3 times...the fourth time he got testy with me....I got testy with him...he got more testy with me and I called him a f'in idiot.....I am not thai, never will be and do not care about losing face...in fact I revel in it.

I can relate; once got a bogus diagnosis from a doctor (this is at the "best" hospital in Bkk), went to the same office saw another doctor and told him about the other doctor, and suggested he look at my file/consult the other doctor.

His answer; "we don't do that here." When I questioned him, he got very, very angry. I was in utter disbelief.

It's called professional courtesy and takes place all over the word, not just in Thailand. You should have gone to another hospital and not mentioned the first diagnosis at all.

You might as well try to piss up a rope than try to get a doctor to refute the diagnosis made by other doctor, especially one working in the same facility. Much like trying to find a lawyer who will take a case against another lawyer. Ain't gonna happen.

[endure]

Getting the job done is not a priority.

Exploiting your position for personal gains is on top of the list.

2nd on the list is having fun.

Now you know.

'I must recognize that man achieves the highest degree of efficiency when he plays. If someone says he works out of loyalty to the company, he is a damned liar. Everyone must work for himself. Even I work because I like working. I must create a workshop where everybody will enjoy working.'

Sochiro Honda

[theblether]

It took the OP ten years to realize that Thais don't like to lose face.

I think that is embarrassing.

[geriatrickid]

At the rist of being labelled an apologist, I don't see this as being a particularly Thai cultural characteristic. I've worked all across Asia, and it's Asian-wide.

Try a characteristic of many companies. I have had goals and budgets set by;

1. Multinational US based company (15,000+ employees) and

2. Multinational EU based company (5500+ employees)

that were ridiculous and unattainable. We have managment policies that make no sense to field personnel but must have seemed brilliant to the paper pushers at Bain Capital/KPMG/Deloitte/AON Hewitt/Mercer (insert any big "management" consulting firm name)

Why, we asked? Why set goals, sales budgets, cost reductions, productivity requirements that cannot be achieved?

The response was that the setting of such goals would "encourage" the personnel and set a goal for the company as a whole. It didn't matter if they were impossible goals.

Of course it's idiotic, but this is how companies operate. It reminds me of the mass group think of executives that wanted to do everything that the head of GE Jack Welch was doing, They were going to cut 10% of the poorly rated company employees every year, they were going to charge for coffee etc. Mr. Welch resigned from GE in disgrace and his business strategies left GE with what some call the big hole to climb out of. There was a time when the strategies of ENRON were praised. What a great company it was said, such brilliant leaders. Yea, right.

I understand that sometimes the big osses make decisions that negatively impact me, but are done because the needs of the organization have to be taken into consideration. Unfortunately, that doesn't even seem to apply anymore. In the good old days when I started working, the bosses had field experience (or as some would call it shop experience) they had started out doing grunt work so they knew what was involved. Maybe the profit margins wouldn't be as high but there would be a loyal and motivated workforce with less chance of theft of playing the system. IMO, the situation is symptomatic of businesses where the management doesn't walk the floor or can't do many of the jobs the workers do. When you don't know how things work or what is involved in a work process, you can't manage it. This isn't a Thai characteristic, it's a worldwide characteristic.

[Mossfinn]

The management is often at it's "competance level"...they were promoted up to the point where they have reached the peak of their ability to deal with their work. Because of that they aren't really selected for futher promotion.

(It's called the "Peter Principle"...look it up on the internet).

That's the result of that "Peter Principle"...that executives are promoted by sucess...and therefore when they reach their level of cpmpetance they are no longer promoted....because they are not compentant for further promotion.

The end result, in Thailand as in other countries is tha after a while all the managers are just compentant enough to do their job, but not compentant enough for futher promotion.

And, because they are at their competance level...they make silly and unattainable goals...which those they supposedly supervise, will simply ignore.

Politicians are also a prime example of this "Peter Principle"...aren't they.

The 'Peter Principle' can be seen in two separate ways, as you state rising to a position of competence and can rise no further because of any further ability to manage a job of further importance, however others read it as being promoted to a level of incompetence, something entirely different.

[theblether]

At the rist of being labelled an apologist, I don't see this as being a particularly Thai cultural characteristic. I've worked all across Asia, and it's Asian-wide.

Try a characteristic of many companies. I have had goals and budgets set by;

1. Multinational US based company (15,000+ employees) and

2. Multinational EU based company (5500+ employees)

that were ridiculous and unattainable. We have managment policies that make no sense to field personnel but must have seemed brilliant to the paper pushers at Bain Capital/KPMG/Deloitte/AON Hewitt/Mercer (insert any big "management" consulting firm name)

Why, we asked? Why set goals, sales budgets, cost reductions, productivity requirements that cannot be achieved?

The response was that the setting of such goals would "encourage" the personnel and set a goal for the company as a whole. It didn't matter if they were impossible goals.

Of course it's idiotic, but this is how companies operate. It reminds me of the mass group think of executives that wanted to do everything that the head of GE Jack Welch was doing, They were going to cut 10% of the poorly rated company employees every year, they were going to charge for coffee etc. Mr. Welch resigned from GE in disgrace and his business strategies left GE with what some call the big hole to climb out of. There was a time when the strategies of ENRON were praised. What a great company it was said, such brilliant leaders. Yea, right.

I understand that sometimes the big osses make decisions that negatively impact me, but are done because the needs of the organization have to be taken into consideration. Unfortunately, that doesn't even seem to apply anymore. In the good old days when I started working, the bosses had field experience (or as some would call it shop experience) they had started out doing grunt work so they knew what was involved. Maybe the profit margins wouldn't be as high but there would be a loyal and motivated workforce with less chance of theft of playing the system. IMO, the situation is symptomatic of businesses where the management doesn't walk the floor or can't do many of the jobs the workers do. When you don't know how things work or what is involved in a work process, you can't manage it. This isn't a Thai characteristic, it's a worldwide characteristic.

Both yourself and bendix are correct........I don't know of any country where people like to lose face. In my experience China takes it to ridiculous extreme's, they will do anything but utter the word no, or admit they cannot do something.

It is quite ( very? ) childish. However we all know that "Face" is elevated to an art form in Asia, and obviously that applies to Thailand too. I would suggest that the OP has lost face by suggesting that it took ten years for a light bulb to go off.

[rijb]

I believe many executives/managers and politicians rise above their Peter Principle because they are sociopaths. I think this is true in Asian and Western cultures.

Next time management asks you to do something that is completely impossible, remember the type of people you're dealing with:

- glibness and superficial charm

- grandiose sense of self

- pathoglogical lying

- lack of remorse, shame or guilt

- shallow emotions

- callousness/lack of empathy

- does not accept blame, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committted

- promiscuity

- criminal or entrepreneurial versatility

- authoritarian

- secretive

- paranoid