Evangelical Monkeys

[zzap]

Seriously, I wouldn't worry too much about a one-off event, but be concerned about the legal framework of an ongoing 'campaign'.

There seems enough goodwill to attempt to organise something.

Not sure this forum is the place to organise it.

Please pm me if interested to participate or sponsor the event, i.e. which weekend in January are you available (or just one day), car, pickup, ladders etc., sponsoring a bottle of beer or whatever.

Please keep in mind that I am not familiar with C.M. province, don't have a car nor ladders, but enough interest. These signs could have many uses...

[notebook_johnny]

I am not a Christian myself, but I think people on this forum are overreacting about these religious signs. There is so much ugliness in Chiang Mai, but probably you won't notice it anymore. And then people who draw the attention to one of the most beautiful people who has ever lived, be it in their own way, get a load of negativity and hate which is saddening. Why don't you clean up your own minds, and see through those signs ?

[Jumbo chilli]

I am not a Christian myself, but I think people on this forum are overreacting about these religious signs. There is so much ugliness in Chiang Mai, but probably you won't notice it anymore. And then people who draw the attention to one of the most beautiful people who has ever lived, be it in their own way, get a load of negativity and hate which is saddening. Why don't you clean up your own minds, and see through those  signs ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A-men!

[rishi]

... but I think people on this forum are overreacting about these religious signs. There is so much ugliness in Chiang Mai...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... these signs are not are not put up in Chiang Mai city, where a few more signs truly wouldn't make much of a difference ... they are put up in the countryside where they truly do make a difference...

Edited December 13, 2005 by rishi

[zzap]

I am not a Christian myself, but I think people on this forum are overreacting about these religious signs. There is so much ugliness in Chiang Mai, but probably you won't notice it anymore. And then people who draw the attention to one of the most beautiful people who has ever lived, be it in their own way, get a load of negativity and hate which is saddening. Why don't you clean up your own minds, and see through those  signs ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, the words "Fear the Lord." and "The Fruit of Sin Is Death" do not draw my attention to anything or anybody beautiful.

Billboards are usually put up at specific locations with the site owner's and authorities consent, and money is paid for this.

I feel these religious fanatics are getting a free ride here.

I'd put it down as a practical joke, if it wasn't so offensive.

How'd you feel if "Allah will punish the infidels" signs turned up in your neighbourhood???

[chanchao]

Actually most of all the signs are a road safety hazzard.. Seeing how high up they are, reading them involves taking your eyes off the road and looking up..

Rather than take down existing signs, I think it would be more fun to change them or add ones that mock this effort.

"Jesus died putting up this sign"

"Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you're an ######"

"Get a taste of religion. Lick a witch."

"I bet Jesus would have used HIS turn signals!"

".. and didn't overtake until AFTER this blind corner."

"My God is alive - sorry about yours."

"Darwin loves you."

"Christianity -- Intolerence since 0032"

"God - A make believe friend for grown-ups."

"So many Christians, so few lions.."

etc.

[cmsally]

"Fear the Lord." and "The Fruit of Sin Is Death"

Sounds pretty negative and hateful to me! Any religion that tries to frighten people with fear and death, sounds like the epitome of negativity and hatefulness.

Why don't you clean up your own minds, and see through those  signs ?

My mind is quite clean enough thank you; and I most sincerely wish I could see through those signs, but unfortunately they are made of quite thick metal and painted yellow and black.

In fact I like to keep things very clean and always take home my own trash and pick up other peoples when I go to a National Park, any place of natural beauty etc. (you know the saying, take only memories, leave only footprints). Imagine my frustration then, when the trash is nailed 15m up a god ###### tree!

[chuchok]

I am not a Christian myself, but I think people on this forum are overreacting about these religious signs. There is so much ugliness in Chiang Mai, but probably you won't notice it anymore. And then people who draw the attention to one of the most beautiful people who has ever lived, be it in their own way, get a load of negativity and hate which is saddening. Why don't you clean up your own minds, and see through those  signs ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are you smoking tonto?

[chanchao]

..then again... Doing stuff to those signs I bet would be upsetting to any (hilltribe) people already converted to Christianity.. I mean we all agree that agressively trying to force religion on to people is evil, but then by doing something against the signs we'd be guilty of the same.

Still... it'd be SO nice to put up a bunch of signs for my own religion.. (I'm a born again Flying Spaghettimonsterist.) Wonder if I can get a work visa spreading the Word, and the Noodles, on that one. Like, given a decent enough supply of Noodles, I bet I could convert at least ONE village to Flying Spaghettimonsterism.

[Johpa]

....... There is so much ugliness in Chiang Mai, but probably you won't notice it anymore. And then people who draw the attention to one of the most beautiful people who has ever lived, ......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do hope you are referring to the Akha people.

[p1p]

I am not a Christian myself, but I think people on this forum are overreacting about these religious signs. There is so much ugliness in Chiang Mai, but probably you won't notice it anymore. And then people who draw the attention to one of the most beautiful people who has ever lived, be it in their own way, get a load of negativity and hate which is saddening. Why don't you clean up your own minds, and see through those  signs ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can I suggest you do a search for the terms "Christian", "Missionary", "Evangelical" etc. etc. on this board and find out what extreme damage these vile leeches do to our deeply loved society here.

[meadish_sweetball]

Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbour As Thyself...

[SarahH]

I am not a Christian myself, but I think people on this forum are overreacting about these religious signs. There is so much ugliness in Chiang Mai, but probably you won't notice it anymore. And then people who draw the attention to one of the most beautiful people who has ever lived, be it in their own way, get a load of negativity and hate which is saddening. Why don't you clean up your own minds, and see through those  signs ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can I suggest you do a search for the terms "Christian", "Missionary", "Evangelical" etc. etc. on this board and find out what extreme damage these vile leeches do to our deeply loved society here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah..., Religious Bigotry is alive and well in Chiang Mai, as can clearly be seen here..

I'm very judgemental of people, but as individuals, with individual reasons. I would never suggest that all English are fools, even though many many seem to be.

As with the English, all Christians are individuals, and should not be grouped together. They have differing ideas, opinons, values. The one thing that Christians have in common is their belief in God. That's the ONLY for sure thing they all have in common. Does believing in God mean that you're vile? In your mind, maybe, but not in reality. And it's reality we're talking about.

Please, let's stay on a healthier track around here, and start dealing with people as individuals, not as a group.

[Dustoff]

Please, let's stay on a healthier track around here, and start dealing with people as individuals, not as a group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, like staying on doing something about those disgustingly unsightly signs some idiot individuals (who may or may not believe in Christian mythology) are tacking up all around the beautiful countryside!

[p1p]

Ah..., Religious Bigotry is alive and well in Chiang Mai, as can clearly be seen here..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SarahH, did you do a search for the terms as suggested above?? If not, please do so before you make such sweepingly judgemental statements.

On the other hand, maybe I should do your work for you and quote from some previous threads:

Many of us who make our lives in and around the North of Thailand have a tendency to be very touchy when Christianity is brought up. We often find ourselves having to clear up the messes that have been left behind by ultra right wing evangelical Christian fanatics. They do immense damage to societies here in the name of their god (sic). Of course we also recognise there are "good Christians" who truly "love their neighbours," but they are very much in the minority here although I consider mysef very lucky to count a few of these good people amongst my close friends.

When the average Christian missionary talks with the locals here, they come from a completely different world; of refrigerators and air conditioning, microwaves and air travel, instant food and designer goods that could not even be imagined by many members of their audience. These missionaries awe the locals with everything they have and are; their education, their clothing, the very way they hold themselves. There is no possible way that a chat with the "natives" could ever be anything but a talk down, or lecture to them. Unfortunately, the "natives" will inevitably believe that all they have to do to be like their "teachers" is to embrace their god (sic.), throwing out the beliefs they have held for multiple generations.

Therein lies the rub. The Gods they have grown up with teach their followers to be self sufficient. They teach care of the environment. They teach the importance of the family unit and care of and respect for elders. They teach the natural laws and balance of "cause & effect". (As you sow shall you reap, Proverbs 39; if you like.) When these Deities are replaced with your one god, they are taught that their sins are forgiven if your god is accepted. They are further taught that the power of prayer is paramount. If they desire a good harvest, a mobile phone, an easy life, all they need do is pray and "Jesus" will provide. Consequently they forget the teachings they grew up with. The old Gods that lived in the rocks and trees which protected their watershed do not exist, so when they are offered easy money to harvest the logs there, they do so, and suffer and die due to the resulting floods, landslides and lack of water in the dry season.

You see, all religious beliefs develop primarily to explain natural order and to help people live within the environment or ecosystem in which they find themselves. Gods get angry because trees are cut down, therefore they send floods or water shortages. Gods say "Protect watershed areas", so watersheds are protected and Gods remain happy, the community remains healthy and the environment remains at balance.

When these Gods are discarded or replaced with the omnipotent Judaeo-Christian troika, all their original Gods' teachings get discarded and immense socio-cultural problems result. Families get torn apart. Aboriginal and indigenous peoples become addicted to alcohol and drugs. Ecosystems are destroyed and immense suffering is caused all round. There is now immense suffering in the hills around here because the original religious prohibition against opiate use by all but the tribe's elders has been destroyed by the new village church. The young are now addicted, are sharing needles and AIDS has taken deep root. There are still no users of drugs amongst the untouched animist communities, only those "Blessed" by their conversion to christianity are lucky enough to enjoy these by-products of their conversion.

Accepted, the missionaries who bear ultimate responsibility for these disasters believe they are doing good, when in fact they are acting out of blasé ignorance of the ruinous results of their ministry. A crime remains a crime whether executed with evil intent or simply with lack of understanding. This is why so many of us expatriates who know, understand and truly love our adopted homelands and their peoples are so vocal and strongly opposed to any type of Judaeo-Christian evangelical mission work. We live here and have to live with and try to mitigate the consequences of the well meaning but sadly misplaced missions.

Please look, listen and learn; but do not preach or try to teach or convert our people. You will never fully understand the long term effects well meaning but totally misguided ministrations will have.

I should point out that I am not anti-Christian. Indeed I studied in a Seminary with a view to taking up holy orders in the Anglican Church and have qualifications from my time there.

The term "Bigot" is often used as pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to his or her prejudices even when these prejudices are challenged or proven to be false, often engaging these prejudices in a rude and intolerant manner. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology, like racism, religion, nationalism, and homophobia. Bigotry is not just intolerance, but rather extreme and unreasonable intolerance. Perhaps you could explain how this applies here?

[SarahH]

So, you expect these rants by people here to add some kind of credibility to your post? As far as I'm concerned, they typify the responses often seen here from someone with little, if any, true experience, but still has an opinion, like yourself.

[rishi]

Please, let's stay on a healthier track around here, and start dealing with people as individuals, not as a group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, like staying on doing something about those disgustingly unsightly signs some idiot individuals (who may or may not believe in Christian mythology) are tacking up all around the beautiful countryside!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... I don't think it's individuals, that are putting up these signs... I think it is yet another group of blind fanatics ...

Blind, they must be, since they can't see the beauty, they are spoiling - Gods own Nature .. (Jesus must be rotating in his grave if he saw what these vandals are doing to his Fathers work, in the name of him)

I really don't care much what might be written on this or that sign: "Fear the Lord" or "Drink Coca Cola" - are equally ugly to me. Put them up in city and they'll be just part of the ususal visual background noise. Put them up in the countryside and they are an offence to all human kind - regardless of whatever might be written on them.

[zzap]

This short, disparaging remark is a bit disappointing after the lengthy explanation p1p posted to explain his position.

Reminds me of the last paragraph: "...a person who is obstinately devoted to his or her prejudices even when these prejudices are challenged ..., often engaging these prejudices in a rude and intolerant manner."

[rishi]

p1p, zapp... with blind fanatics, you'll be arguing in vain

[sabaijai]

Actually most of all the signs are a road safety hazzard.. Seeing how high up they are, reading them involves taking your eyes off the road and looking up..

Rather than take down existing signs, I think it would be more fun to change them or add ones that mock this effort.

"Jesus died putting up this sign"

"Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you're an ######"

"Get a taste of religion. Lick a witch."

"I bet Jesus would have used HIS turn signals!"

".. and didn't overtake until AFTER this blind corner."

"My God is alive - sorry about yours."

"Darwin loves you."

"Christianity -- Intolerence since 0032"

"God - A make believe friend for grown-ups."

"So many Christians, so few lions.."

etc.

Brilliant.

[p1p]

So, you expect these rants by people here to add some kind of credibility to your post? As far as I'm concerned, they typify the responses often seen here from someone with little, if any, true experience, but still has an opinion, like yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SarahH - Please can you tell us of your own true experience and knowledge here?

As for myself. My family has been involved in Thailand since the 1860's and since 1962 I have spent more time here than elsewhere. My life since 1972 has been wholly envolved with things Thai. I read and write the Thai language and speak Thai and various dialects well enough to pass as a native speaker, although my appearance gives the lie to such.

I have witnessed the destruction wrought by well-meaning but totally misplaced "missions" over many years and had to help treat the damage done and psychoses caused on very many occasions over the years. More than I care to remember.

What true and overriding experiences do you have to show, to prove the point of view that you obviously hold so dear?

In future, please don't use such highly pejorative terms as "bigot". They have no place in, what should be, well informed debate.

I await your "well informed" response.

[SarahH]

Sorry, but I'm not going compete with you. I could never compete with such a bold-faced liar like yourself. If that's the personna you want to make-up here, so be it. This is the internet.

I do feel a bit sorry for you though.

[too true]

Wow. the undertones of Sarah's posting leads one to believe that she knows more about p1p than she is letting on... I feel like this is the end of a Scooby Doo cartoon, where someone pulls off the mask and we all get to find out who SarahH really is.

Haven't seen the signs, but have seen what some of the missionaries have done to some of the hilltribes. Buying and selling faith is simply wrong. No two ways about it. And that's what happens when the missionaries give schools and medical supplies in exchange for religious conversion.

I know a child in Chiang Mai who is not Thai and whose parents are missionaries here. He goes around saying to other kids "You're going to burn in hel_l for that!" if they do something he doesn't like. Scary...

Tear down the signs boys!!!

[sleepyjohn]

The last post is a great example of how you "can't talk to these people"

I had a girlfriend who went to one of the dozens of churches here in CM every week with her family.

Occasionally I would visit and I was invited for lunch one day. The had a load of foreign missionary type hobnobs there that . I was rather fascinated and picked one to sit next to. We made polite conversation. I was interesteed to see how long it would take. It you ask? It being how many minutes he could go wothout bringing in the Lord. Sure enough it came.

I told him quite straight I was disgusted with the way Christians had just played a big part in enabling the invasion of Iraq, and I detested the US support of Israel. BUT THE US DOESN"T SUPPORT ISRAEL he said!! After getting a couple of quotes which bore mroe than a passing resemblance to supporting the children of Israel I didn't bother.

[cmsally]

I don't think any of us would say we are actually anti Christian as such, many of us come from or have lived in countries which are mostly Christian. No one is going to deny that many "Christian" values are good - charity, kindness and generally living your life not harming others and trying to make yourself useful.

What leaves most people gasping and in shock is to see the form that Christianity takes in many non Christian, mostly developing nations.

Everything is based on divide and rule using economic power.

We are talking about the missionary activity and how economic superiority is used to pull people over to their control and way of thinking.

If they are truly charitable and humble, they will give not expecting anything back, no strings attached. That I believe is the true meaning of charity.

Here and in other countries it is a very different story, you receive if you become one of them or are a potential recruit. It doesn't take much effort to search around on the internet and find some evidence which confirms that everything is an opportunity to preach to people and I guess if they don't listen you stick up these signs!

Come on lets see some true charity; give, expect nothing in return and feel good about just giving. At the moment looks too much like big international business to me.

Before you've given you have calculated the maximum returns and interest payments along with your own bonuses.

[zzap]

Sorry, but I'm not going compete with you. I could never compete with such a bold-faced liar like yourself. If that's the personna you want to make-up here, so be it. This is the internet.

I do feel a bit sorry for you though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No-one asked you to compete with anybody, there was a simple request for you to elaborate on your previous comments and clarify what you find so objectable.

Instead you have posted increasingly stronger personal insults, which make no sense.

Do you know p1p outside of this forum? Then wash your laundry outside of here.

[zzap]

I agree, cmsally, I have also come across a very dubious kind of missionary, here and in the Philippines, and I should add, they mostly come from small sects very few people in their homecountry give any credit to.

[chanchao]

Frankly I suspect that more than a few of us would have been dissappointed if someone like Sarah didn't step in.

While Sarah's last post is definitely not 'okay', I don't feel like editing it out or anything else because both p1p and myself have participated so much in this topic and have been so outspoken.. Of course that upsets some people, but our skins are pretty thick so we live and let live.

I do hope though that Sarah can keep the personal insults out of any future posts.. Would gain more sympathy too.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[fr11]

I do hope though that Sarah can keep the personal insults out of any future posts..  Would gain more sympathy too.

Cheers,

Chanchao

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree completely with Chanchao, let's keep personal insults out of this discussion...I suggest that from now on only people who deserve to be disliked should be insulted. To give an example : "Evangelical monkeys", that would be okay. Agreed everyone ?

[chuchok]

Sorry, but I'm not going compete with you. I could never compete with such a bold-faced liar like yourself. If that's the personna you want to make-up here, so be it. This is the internet.

I do feel a bit sorry for you though

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would say that the majority of people on this board feel a wee bit sorry for you SarahH.However, I bet the majority of people on this board feel more sorry for people of this country that have been misguided by Christian missionarys.

To call p1p a "bald faced liar" is a bit rich...know him well do you?