Why Thailand Focuses On Face.

[dseawarrior]

The danger of focusing too much on face is that societal pressure is always on the verge of boiling over for some. The Japanese have a very high rate of suicide largely due to stress from fear of humiliation. There can be even a greater danger once people are removed from that environment and begin to act without any inhibition.

When I taught at unversity in Japan, one of the professors explained that the atrocities commited by the Japanese during WWII stemmed from the fact that soldiers were finally free from the confines of their tightly knit communities and became unleashed animals. They no longer had to worry about saving face and went to extreme measures to take advantage of the circumstances. 

I don't think society in Thailand is anywhere near as regimented as that of Japan, but there are certainly common elements.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice discussion, all. Thanks jamman for getting it going...

As we all know, generalizations can get us in trouble. I know many Thai people who are very kind, considerate and think on rather deep levels. The same can be said of my farang friends. Ignoramuses abound in all cultures, but I think Westerners can often "hide" their ignorance with their generally higher levels of education...

Along with face, I urge people to look at "heart." It is easy to second guess someone's behavior as being an attempt to keep face but I venture it is equally important to take a look at what you may think their intentions are. Most peoples' intentions are rather innocent most of the time. We are all trying to survive and have fun with it at the same time...

I like very much the Thai concept of "greng jai" -- to be considerate of others -- as far as I understand it.

So, I applaud everyone for seeking the consensus of the middle path and not getting too extreme in opinions and judgments...

... very greng jai ...

dseawarrior

[Laughing Gravy]

An excellent informative opinion IMHO on many aspects of Thai Life.

What I don't understand is why people are not aloud to discuss factors about Thailand, especially if they live here without been accused of Thai bashing.

People are not Thai bashing, they are often pointing out the differences in culture and excpectations.

Can someone tell me what the hel_l smiling has to do with being happy? In fact I know many Thais who smile all day but are extremely unhappy. I know some Finnish people who rarely smile but describe themselves as being very happy.

Don't confuse smiling with happiness as it doesn't always correlate in Thailand.

I think we all agree that Thailand and the west is different. We have different opinions, social structures, excpectations and infrastructures. So what is wrong with discusssing it?

I am a little fed up if people saying well if you don't like it go back to your own country. Well listen up. I do like some things but not everything, that's why I choose to work and live here. But that doesnt mean I can't give my views or discuss what I see as morally right or wrong. It is called freedom of expression.

If people don't agree with the original poster then state why, instead of throwing insults as I have read on other similar threads.

Have a great day everyone.

[creation2474]

More of us consider our fellows when we choose how loud should be our motorcycle muffler for the value of moral social engagement.  The value system is flawed in Asia, and this aborts the development of the individual and therefore the society. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to wonder why you left your own country.

One trip to a city center on a Friday night in the UK after the pubs kick out will enlighten you as to how civilised and culturtal farangs are, compared with the backward Asians.

If being so wonderful and advanced creates the problems that you now have in the West, then you can keep all that advancement and perfection, jeez, I think you guys need to look at what is happening in Europe, then tell me Europe is so good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is happening in Europe then?

[JRinger]

As we all know, generalizations can get us in trouble. I know many Thai people who are very kind, considerate and think on rather deep levels. The same can be said of my farang friends. Ignoramuses abound in all cultures, but I think Westerners can often "hide" their ignorance with their generally higher levels of education...

Living next door to Thai family for several years, the husband was the office manager for an insurance company, the wife stayed at home taking care of the house and their three children, the oldest a boy and two younger sisters. Over the years we became good friends, ate together and took local trips together with all the kids piling in the back of my new truck. ...I had fun with them and especially liked the little girls as I have no children of my own.

One day the husband lost his job when the main company shut down his office. About six months later, still no job, his wife decided to go to Singapore to try and find a rich farang husband. She returned less than two weeks after setting out and sure enough met a Swiss man who wanted to marry her. She and her husband got a quick divorce and she married the Swiss man, They moved out not long after to move in their big new home. They were driving a new truck to take their possessions. The ex-husband became the brother who lives in the big house and helps take care while the new husband is in Switzerland.

Perhaps this story is a bit off-track from "face" but it dipicts a family that we knew for years and became good friends. My wife used to feed the children and the husband while the wife was in Singapore. After they moved away we never saw or heard from them again. The motorcycle dealer comes around sometimes to try and find out where they moved to, they bought a new motorbike and after making three payments they stopped paying anymore.

We felt a bit strange that we never heard from them but my wife says that they're afraid that maybe I might say something to her new husband and ruin things......

Edited December 14, 2005 by JRinger

[OlRedEyes]

When there's kids to feed and raise, and the financial screws are on hard, solutions have to be found. Different people find different solutions. Some turn to crime. Who are we to judge.

On a lighter note, I am pleasantly surprised at the low level of flaming in this thread. Expected it to be quite violent. Maybe things are changing a bit here....

[Glauka]

An excellent informative opinion IMHO on many aspects of Thai Life.  

What I don't understand is why people are not aloud to discuss factors about Thailand, especially if they live here without been accused of Thai bashing.

People are not Thai bashing, they are often pointing out the differences in culture and excpectations.

Can someone tell me what the hel_l smiling has to do with being happy? In fact I know many Thais who smile all day but are extremely unhappy. I know some Finnish people who rarely smile but describe themselves as being very happy.

Don't confuse smiling with happiness as it doesn't always correlate in Thailand.I think we all agree that Thailand and the west is different. We have different opinions, social structures, excpectations and infrastructures. So what is wrong with discusssing it?

I am a little fed up if people saying well if you don't like it go back to your own country. Well listen up. I do like some things but not everything, that's why I choose to work and live here. But that doesnt mean I can't give my views or discuss what I see as morally right or wrong. It is called freedom of expression.

If people don't agree with the original poster then state why, instead of throwing insults as I have read on other similar threads.

Have a great day everyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think an smile tells a lot about someone interior. And I think that people who smile( that not laugh) are more content than people who doesn´t ( of course there are always exception). Anyway I like when people smile at me.

I KNOW SOMETHING FOR SURE IF YOU SMILE YOU WILL HAVE MORE BEAUTIFUL WRINKLES

Edited December 14, 2005 by Glauka

[gharknes]

Here is more thought on cultural differences.  It’s neither complex nor a light read, so if you have ever used the word pseudo-intellectual this might not be a fun post for you.  Writing stuff like this is one way I really get my kicks though - its fun to think about stuff, and I never know what I really think until I write it down.

A reader asked me to speculate as to why Asian society places less value on art, truth and morals for their own sake and places more value on practical matters that relate to status than western societies. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

your argument is seriously flawed, the western society is completely driven by status, from we are very young we are motivated by material things, my bike is better than yours, my house is bigger than yours, my car is bigger and faster than yours, i earn more money than you, if this isn't status then I don't know what is, thai people seem to be more than happy with a place to sleep and food on their plate, not the size of their car, futher to this - in the west if you don't achieve these things you are a failure, crime in the west is driven by greed, crime in Thailand is driven by need, not in all cases but many, corruption is a problem of course but this is carried out from opportunity as opposed to pre planned, there is a difference.

[jamman]

"The power of inertia will keep Asia focused on face until there is strong enough dissatisfaction for social systems such as schooling or religion or women’s rights or mafia style corruption or under-regulated individual and corporate pollution, or labor rights, to start open public debate and criticism and reform."

Their social systems have been around a lot longer that 'ours' so I'd have to say time is on their side...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Horseshoe crabs have not evolved for millions of years. They are successful also.

[jamman]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WELL do you know what I like about Thailand people therefore culture that is lack in Europe?

1. People jobs are not the most important thing in their life therefore they care more about other matters like relaxing, being with neighbours, sitting and just watch...they are not so stress

2. They smile all the time and that make such a different...In Europe people do not smile as much, they are overwhelmed by work problems, money problem,marriage problems...they forget to smile.

3. Their children run half naked playing in the water, being curious about other creatures...they haven´t got the pressure of getting into the best school, best university, and trying to be the best.

the list can go on...

This is all I have to say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I also really like the more laid back approach to life. The general stress level is low. Maybe even lax.

I like how the women take care of their dress and appearance.

I like that the women are happy to be feminine.

I like that flirting is easy.

Surprises are everywhere. A person can be treated and taken out by strangers, and have a great time, for an evening or a weekend, or who knows.

[Glauka]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WELL do you know what I like about Thailand people therefore culture that is lack in Europe?

1. People jobs are not the most important thing in their life therefore they care more about other matters like relaxing, being with neighbours, sitting and just watch...they are not so stress

2. They smile all the time and that make such a different...In Europe people do not smile as much, they are overwhelmed by work problems, money problem,marriage problems...they forget to smile.

3. Their children run half naked playing in the water, being curious about other creatures...they haven´t got the pressure of getting into the best school, best university, and trying to be the best.

the list can go on...

This is all I have to say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I also really like the more laid back approach to life. The general stress level is low. Maybe even lax.

I like how the women take care of their dress and appearance.

I like that the women are happy to be feminine.

I like that flirting is easy.

Surprises are everywhere. A person can be treated and taken out by strangers, and have a great time, for an evening or a weekend, or who knows.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree with most of your points in you OP...

Hoewer I am glad that we agree on my points...

Yes I like those things too (the ones you mention of course!)

Edited December 15, 2005 by Glauka

[jamman]

Not wanting to spend too much time on the details of the original post although there are alot of comments I could make I would like to sum up what I think is the major oversite in the post.....namely....the negative attributes that he suggests are found in Thai people are just as widely found throughout western cultures as well.  In my experience the vast vast majority of Westerners place "less value on art, truth and morals for their own sake" and place "more value on practical matters that relate to status".  You were using these quoted words to describe Asians....I think they equally apply to Westerners.  I guess most PEOPLE are "stuck in adolescence" as you like to describe their condition.

I almost forgot....your term "poverty of the soul"...perhaps OP should do some soul searching.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that levels of personal development are ubiquitous - in any society there will be sociopaths and saints. It is the relative distribution that marks the general tone. Asia feels younger.

By "less value", it was obvious that more and less were being used to compare the west and the east. The west values some things more, and the east values some things less. Sure, in both places you'll find similar people, but you won'd find the same proportion of different types of people. Where are the book clubs in Thailand?

[jamman]

Hey OP,

How many countries have you visited?

I have worked and visited more then 60 and I can tell you that in most of them bragging with a new (expensive) car or good looking GF, Rolex is common practice.

One of the concepts of face is actually a nice thing (not to embarres another in front of others for example).

Something that is forgotten in a lot of 'developed' countries.

Because in those 'developed' countries most of people try to find ways to let the other look bad hoping they get rewarded by exposing someones mistakes.

All those endless discussions of someone trying to convince others that you are wrong instead of finding a solution.

And I could go on about what is so wrong about Western culture.

We just have to find a way to intermix the good things of both.

My two cents for whatever it means.

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow - 60 countries!

Yes, being diplomatic is respectable, and is a difficult skill that is a sign of maturity. Blindly not embarrassing other's is much easier, as there is no need for confrontation, and confrontation is totally avoided. Being diplomatic requires both empathy and some willingness to engage.

Yes, trying to show other's as wrong for the sport of it is an attractive petty little sin, isn't it? Hard to grow out of that one.

[jamman]

And I doubt the concept of face is restricted solely to the possession of material goods or one's status in society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, that's right, and face isn't a bad thing either. Giving ego strokes is a fine gift, and respecting someone's feelings is appropriate. It's the over-emphasis on face, the placing at the highest and only real value that can be a problem that stunts individual and collective growth.

[jamman]

Don't confuse smiling with happiness as it doesn't always correlate in Thailand.

I think we all agree that Thailand and the west is different. We have different opinions, social structures, excpectations and infrastructures. So what is wrong with discusssing it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some social scientist recently documented different muscles used in the smile of Brits and people from the States. It took me a while to try to see what emotions were being expressed by the smiles of Thais that I met. It wasn't always an emotion I'd correlate with a Canadian smile.

[jamman]

The danger of focusing too much on face is that societal pressure is always on the verge of boiling over for some. The Japanese have a very high rate of suicide largely due to stress from fear of humiliation. There can be even a greater danger once people are removed from that environment and begin to act without any inhibition.

When I taught at unversity in Japan, one of the professors explained that the atrocities commited by the Japanese during WWII stemmed from the fact that soldiers were finally free from the confines of their tightly knit communities and became unleashed animals. They no longer had to worry about saving face and went to extreme measures to take advantage of the circumstances. 

I don't think society in Thailand is anywhere near as regimented as that of Japan, but there are certainly common elements.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a really good point. In Bali there are immigrants from Java, who once unrestrained by their mates treat everyone as if outside of their own tribe - they treat people badly. The strong social peer pressure in Indonesia is great to maintain strong social ties, but then people don't develop their own internalized individual morality. They don't think about thinking. They do as they are told, and that won't work when you are outside of your group, or when your group faces another - the other will be foreign.

I've read that there are 3 broad stages of moral development - the 1st is where you dont' care about others, the 2nd is where you internalize and follow the rules, the 3rd is where you think about your own values and those around you and choose your values. The 3rd requires a lot of personal character, and is not as easy as the 2nd, which is again not as easy as the 1st.

[jamman]

Here is more thought on cultural differences.  It’s neither complex nor a light read, so if you have ever used the word pseudo-intellectual this might not be a fun post for you.  Writing stuff like this is one way I really get my kicks though - its fun to think about stuff, and I never know what I really think until I write it down.

A reader asked me to speculate as to why Asian society places less value on art, truth and morals for their own sake and places more value on practical matters that relate to status than western societies. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

your argument is seriously flawed, the western society is completely driven by status, from we are very young we are motivated by material things, my bike is better than yours, my house is bigger than yours, my car is bigger and faster than yours, i earn more money than you, if this isn't status then I don't know what is, thai people seem to be more than happy with a place to sleep and food on their plate, not the size of their car, futher to this - in the west if you don't achieve these things you are a failure, crime in the west is driven by greed, crime in Thailand is driven by need, not in all cases but many, corruption is a problem of course but this is carried out from opportunity as opposed to pre planned, there is a difference.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya, you are right that status is a huge motivating force in the west. Rather than argue about which place puts more emphasis on it, let's flip it around. Which place puts more emphasis on parts of the good life that are not about status? I mentione the 3 categories of the good, the true, and the beautiful, or morals, science, and art, and tried to see how each culture valued them.

It may be true that a fourth category, the fun, should be included. Thailand would score high on that one.

[zzap]

In Bali there are immigrants from Java, who once unrestrained by their mates treat everyone as if outside of their own tribe - they treat people badly.  The strong social peer pressure in Indonesia is great to maintain strong social ties, but then people don't develop their own internalized individual morality.  They don't think about thinking.  They do as they are told, and that won't work when you are outside of your group, or when your group faces another - the other will be foreign. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What makes you say this? Any base to this comment at all, links, sources, have you ever been to Bali or Indonesia?

Btw, since "pseudo-intellectual' has been mentioned a few times by yourself and your twin-brother, Krukowski CH, here a brief explanation:

intellect= the capacity for rational or intelligent thought

Pseudo-intellectual: ... it is used to suggest that one is making attempts to appear more knowledgable and/or intelligent than is actually the case. ...He or she may also attempt to discuss advanced concepts, but noticeably fail through fundamental ignorance.

[jamman]

In Bali there are immigrants from Java, who once unrestrained by their mates treat everyone as if outside of their own tribe - they treat people badly.  The strong social peer pressure in Indonesia is great to maintain strong social ties, but then people don't develop their own internalized individual morality.  They don't think about thinking.  They do as they are told, and that won't work when you are outside of your group, or when your group faces another - the other will be foreign. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What makes you say this? Any base to this comment at all, links, sources, have you ever been to Bali or Indonesia?

Btw, since "pseudo-intellectual' has been mentioned a few times by yourself and your twin-brother, Krukowski CH, here a brief explanation:

intellect= the capacity for rational or intelligent thought

Pseudo-intellectual: ... it is used to suggest that one is making attempts to appear more knowledgable and/or intelligent than is actually the case. ...He or she may also attempt to discuss advanced concepts, but noticeably fail through fundamental ignorance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I visted 5 times. I lived in the U.S. with an Indonesian off and on for 3 years. My last visit I lived there for a year. I had a staff of 10 for my company, and lived in Kuta, Sanur, and Ubud. The info is from the locals, who told me that the street touts were reviled by the Balinese, who would occasionally "sweep" them from Bali back to Java.

But why am I responding to a troll? What are you bringing to the conversation, other than a sneer?

[zzap]

But why am I responding to a troll?

Look up the term "troll", please.

What are you bringing to the conversation, other than a sneer?

My 'wisdom and intellect' perhaps?

...according to which, it is unlikely anyone lived in Kuta, Sanur and Ubud in one year (as opposed to visiting) while running a company with 10 employees... , but rather named the locations from a tourist brochure to pretend knowledge of the place. I could be wrong, of course. (I did work there, actually)

Anyway, so the Javanese in Bali are all street touts? Yeah, I am convinced you lived there and your assessment is right on...

"Pseudo-intellectual: ... it is used to suggest that one is making attempts to appear more knowledgable and/or intelligent than is actually the case. ..."

Edited December 15, 2005 by zzap

[thaibebop]

This is a theme newbies (or Trolls) like to latch on to when first confronting Asia...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Summed it up nicely there Boon.

Posts from a mind who thinks it knows.

[Teakhead]

The fabled West as a beacon for the world? Hmm...as someone born and raised in the US, I don't know if I can embrace that concept.

Wonderful things about the US:

- Clean and orderly; no soi dogs, no worrisome piles of burning trash by the roadside

- Some measure of freedom

- Better opportunities for advancement

- Most people are genuinely nice at heart, no matter what the rest of the world thinks of us

- Fairly tolerant culture

Not-so-wonderful things about the US:

- Obsession with the rule of law, when you have wiped out large swaths of forest in printing up new laws every year, becomes stifling and ludicrous.

- Individualism has its limits here; I would wager that if you went to a medical school interview here in cut-off shorts and a prominent nose ring, no matter that you are utlizing your First Amendment right to personal expression, you probably would not be accepted.

- Having lived in Los Angeles for three years, I have first-hand accounts of vacuous lives completely devoid of art, culture, and meaning.

- Life here is ###### lonely.

As for culture and art, I don't see why it has to fit a contemporary framework. I don't particularly care for most modern literature, poetry, and art. I don't listen to NPR, and I don't frequent book clubs or poetry readings. I enjoy more classical works, but stand to be criticized for being a reactionary. Come to think of it, the vast majority of people here are more likely to be watching "Desperate Housewives" than participating in any of the above activities. If people are not interested, does that make them adolescent?

I also am fortunate to have a well-paying, stable job. People who spend most of their waking hours ekeing out a living or trying to forget the misery of their lives might not have the opportunity or desire to steep themselves in culture, not just in Asia but here as well.

While I am opposed to corruption, cronyism, and lackadaisical attitudes, I can't subscribe to your notion of progress. Maybe such progress exists in Canada, but I've lived in four very different areas here and have failed to see anything marginally approximating the utopian images you present.

[spear]

You dicuss about "face" and the face you talking is just a face of all too .There's something deep in cultural issue that you never know because your idea bases on western perspective

P.S I'm sorry tee pasa angrit khong nu mai kang rang ka

[Noel]

In Bali there are immigrants from Java, who once unrestrained by their mates treat everyone as if outside of their own tribe - they treat people badly.  The strong social peer pressure in Indonesia is great to maintain strong social ties, but then people don't develop their own internalized individual morality.  They don't think about thinking.  They do as they are told, and that won't work when you are outside of your group, or when your group faces another - the other will be foreign. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What makes you say this? Any base to this comment at all, links, sources, have you ever been to Bali or Indonesia?

Btw, since "pseudo-intellectual' has been mentioned a few times by yourself and your twin-brother, Krukowski CH, here a brief explanation:

intellect= the capacity for rational or intelligent thought

Pseudo-intellectual: ... it is used to suggest that one is making attempts to appear more knowledgable and/or intelligent than is actually the case. ...He or she may also attempt to discuss advanced concepts, but noticeably fail through fundamental ignorance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on!

I actually first used the term 'pseudo-intellectual' in reference to one of jamkowski's rants zzap, when he would not answer Morden's direct question (for obvious reasons no doubt ).

His initial drunken (his admission) response with feathers clearly ruffled was to 'forbid' me to use the term as it was a 'bullshit' word.

When I then told him it was a perfectly valid term, particulary in regard to his screed, he replied with:

"Whenever I've heard anyone use the term pseudo-intellectual, I've never really understood what it was supposed to mean. It always seems spoken by someone who does not come across as an "intellectual", whatever that might be. I also wonder if the person who speaks it considers intellectual and pseudo-intellectual basically similar, as if big words or complicated ideas just basically bug the guy."

Quod erat demonstrandum, in spades...

[jamman]

But why am I responding to a troll?

Look up the term "troll", please.

What are you bringing to the conversation, other than a sneer?

My 'wisdom and intellect' perhaps?

...according to which, it is unlikely anyone lived in Kuta, Sanur and Ubud in one year (as opposed to visiting) while running a company with 10 employees... , but rather named the locations from a tourist brochure to pretend knowledge of the place. I could be wrong, of course. (I did work there, actually)

Anyway, so the Javanese in Bali are all street touts? Yeah, I am convinced you lived there and your assessment is right on...

"Pseudo-intellectual: ... it is used to suggest that one is making attempts to appear more knowledgable and/or intelligent than is actually the case. ..."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's hard for me to believe that you sincere in your post. Do you honestly believe that I'm lying about where I lived and for how long? Do you have conversations like that often? If so, I'm sorry to hear of the low level of communications you've let yourself into. Forgive my ignorance, but are there really people who post here who bullshit quite that much? Why would anyone?

[jamman]

You dicuss about "face" and  the face you talking is just a face of all too .There's something deep in cultural issue that you never know because your idea bases on western perspective

P.S  I'm sorry tee pasa angrit khong nu mai kang rang ka

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you are saying that as a Westerner, I'll never really get inside all the meanings and connotations of face? I'll never really understand Eastern culture, because I'm not Eastern?

If so, I reject that view. I think I can understand eastern culture, but from my own perspective. We can communicate and make judgments.

Edited December 16, 2005 by jamman

[jamman]

Quod erat demonstrandum, in spades...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You didn't catch my meaning when I said that? Whenever the term is used, it seems a slight on a persons style as well as his emphasis on convoluted ideas. My question was, why the slight? I have a writing style that can be interpreted as stiff, and my interests are often about ideas and how things relate. Why not just call me a geek or something. Why pseudo anything? I'm not pseudo anything. I ams what I am.

Edited December 16, 2005 by jamman

[OlRedEyes]

But why am I responding to a troll?

Look up the term "troll", please.

What are you bringing to the conversation, other than a sneer?

My 'wisdom and intellect' perhaps?

...according to which, it is unlikely anyone lived in Kuta, Sanur and Ubud in one year (as opposed to visiting) while running a company with 10 employees... , but rather named the locations from a tourist brochure to pretend knowledge of the place. I could be wrong, of course. (I did work there, actually)

Anyway, so the Javanese in Bali are all street touts? Yeah, I am convinced you lived there and your assessment is right on...

"Pseudo-intellectual: ... it is used to suggest that one is making attempts to appear more knowledgable and/or intelligent than is actually the case. ..."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it is a moot point as to who is the pseudo-intellectual here...

[Boon Mee]

Y'all can beat this subject to death but bottom line:

"East is east and west is west & never the twain shall meet"

--Rudyard Kipling

Don't try to understand it, just accept it...

[jamman]

The fabled West as a beacon for the world?  Hmm...as someone born and raised in the US, I don't know if I can embrace that concept.

Wonderful things about the US:

- Clean and orderly; no soi dogs, no worrisome piles of burning trash by the roadside

- Some measure of freedom

- Better opportunities for advancement

- Most people are genuinely nice at heart, no matter what the rest of the world thinks of us

- Fairly tolerant culture

Not-so-wonderful things about the US:

- Obsession with the rule of law, when you have wiped out large swaths of forest in printing up new laws every year, becomes stifling and ludicrous.

- Individualism has its limits here; I would wager that if you went to a medical school interview here in cut-off shorts and a prominent nose ring, no matter that you are utlizing your First Amendment right to personal expression, you probably would not be accepted.

- Having lived in Los Angeles for three years, I have first-hand accounts of vacuous lives completely devoid of art, culture, and meaning. 

- Life here is ###### lonely.

As for culture and art, I don't see why it has to fit a contemporary framework.  I don't particularly care for most modern literature, poetry, and art.  I don't listen to NPR, and I don't frequent book clubs or poetry readings.  I enjoy more classical works, but stand to be criticized for being a reactionary.  Come to think of it, the vast majority of people here are more likely to be watching "Desperate Housewives" than participating in any of the above activities.  If people are not interested, does that make them adolescent? 

I also am fortunate to have a well-paying, stable job.  People who spend most of their waking hours ekeing out a living or trying to forget the misery of their lives might not have the opportunity or desire to steep themselves in culture, not just in Asia but here as well.

While I am opposed to corruption, cronyism, and lackadaisical attitudes, I can't subscribe to your notion of progress.  Maybe such progress exists in Canada, but I've lived in four very different areas here and have failed to see anything marginally approximating the utopian images you present.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya, there's lots of horrible stuff about the west. Of course individuality will and should have its limits. It makes life easier if people make some show of trying to fit in.

But I also like that in the US now a sign of status might be that you are so powerful that you can come to work wearing casual if you choose. Since we are so familiar with having wealth, it's not the all powerful status symbol it used to be. Powerful, but not as all powerful.

It wasn't my experience that my town was devoid of culture, but Boulder is not a typical US town. But from what I saw of LA there should be plenty of groups of people with passionate interests. There are enough cool people there - I'm sure they meet. There must be thousands of eccentric cliques with thousands more eccentrics with lively passions.

You know I felt the same way - I was overall lonelier in the U.S.! I heard another guy say the same thing. Wonder if that's common.

I feel freer in the East too. It's been sad to see the Thai government stepping up social control powers. I like the wild wild west feeling here.

As for culture and art, a core point I was making had to do more with passion and curiosity more with any particular expression of it. What gets us up in the morning? Personally, I have many interests that make me yearn for years and years more life. Time is never heavy - there is never enough of it. Some interests include reading and writing. I'm totally ignorant and hardly curious about Art, but it's nice to know that there is an unexplored area in life there. And there are plenty of other active interests, none of which are really about a new BMW. I was just trying to contrast having interests into this world, against the main interests being personal image and raising status. I don't think everyone should be into this or that particular interest, although many have great benefit. Not everyone wants to read, or meditate, or dance, or focus on love and passion, or get into lucid dreaming, or whatever other passions are out there. But you can tell a person who has a passion from one that doesn't, and a person who has many from someone with few. People with interests are more interesting, broader of scope, wider of embrace. Like a loving Grandma, they see into you more, accept you more, and are less fickle.

I'm not sure what idea of progress I put forward. Mine is to simplify life, not sweat the small stuff, and pay attention to what is interesting.

Edited December 16, 2005 by jamman

[thaibebop]

You dicuss about "face" and  the face you talking is just a face of all too .There's something deep in cultural issue that you never know because your idea bases on western perspective

P.S  I'm sorry tee pasa angrit khong nu mai kang rang ka

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So you are saying that as a Westerner, I'll never really get inside all the meanings and connotations of face? I'll never really understand Eastern culture, because I'm not Eastern?

If so, I reject that view. I think I can understand eastern culture, but from my own perspective. Which isn't theirs and thus isn't the same.

We can communicate and make judgments.

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