House Ownership

[mackes]

I am building a house on my Thai lady's land and would like to have some advices how to best secure my future stay in the house if something should go wrong.

I looked around on old threads but can't find any summary.

We have not yet registered marriage but we are about to do and we have done a traditional marriage ceremony. We live together in my "wifes" family house during construction of the new house which is "next door" and will be finished this summer. I signed construction contracts in my name and pay directly to contractor.

There are no conflicts between us today and we are quite clear about what we both want with the future. So my questions will be: What about land? Lease or what? What about house? Registration, ownership? What about interior investments etc. etc. My intention is to stay in house whatever happen in the future and I want my wife to stay if something happen to me or I move from Thailand.

[MJo]

Well is 30 years lease enough for you meaning are you going to live more than 30 years ?

For longer term is needed you should look to other methods. There is discussions on them on the property forums.

in any case i'd consult a lawyer, there is few as sponsors in the forum that do this all the time and it is not that expensive considering the few mil you are going to spend on the house.

Also to remember that if you build next to your GF's family in the village your stay might not be that pleasant if something goes wrong with your lady. Having legal right to stay does not help you very much with nasty neighbors.

[mackes]

Well is 30 years lease enough for you meaning are you going to live more than 30 years ?

Also to remember that if you build next to your GF's family in the village your stay might not be that pleasant if something goes wrong with your lady. Having legal right to stay does not help you very much with nasty neighbors.

I believe 30 years will do for me, and I'm fully aware of the neighborhood problem. I believe I can handle that.

[ballbreaker]

I would save some money and go with usufruct, making sure its recorded on chanote, instead of lease agreement.

Also when you build house make sure building permit is in your name.

[Langsuan Man]

Get a thirty year lease or even better a usufruct BEFORE you register your marriage, otherwise the house and furnishing will be Community Property under Thai law

[ballbreaker]

Get a thirty year lease or even better a usufruct BEFORE you register your marriage, otherwise the house and furnishing will be Community Property under Thai law

This is a must for sure if you want protection.

[mackes]

Thank you all, it sounds like the usufruct will be the right thing for me.

Anyone get through this procedure? What's needed in terms of paperwork

before going to land office with the chanot for registration?

[surayu]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/171307-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-usufruct-agreements-in-thailand/

[Khun Jean]

http://www.thaivisa....ts-in-thailand/

I would skip the first few pages of that topic because what isaanlawyers wrote there is not the complete story. As always lawyers/agents etc who make money on these things leave out the small but o so important details.

I would use the standard usufruct agreement available at the landoffice and register the usufruct for 100 baht (or was it 120, not remember) for life, not write down a specific term. They will tell your soon to be wife what it means for her. That contract is very short and because of that it is a much stronger contract then one full with extra clauses that makes everything cloudy and open for interpretation. The form is made by the government and as such it will always be recognized by courts if that unfortunate moment arrives.

No taxes have to be paid as would be the case with a lease.

Do it before the marriage and your good for life.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Khun Jean

[mackes]

Worked out smooth and well out. Visited the land office, 1 hour and 185 Baht later I have my name in the chanots (the plot consists of three)

and feel safe about not being thrown out if something goes wrong or my wife passes.

Thanks everybody for good advices.

[simon43]

Do it before the marriage and your good for life.

Hmm - that last phrase could be the 'killer'

[TommoPhysicist]

Ursafunct on the land to give you right to live and use.

Then when you build the house, receipts all in your name, building registered in your name.

Using funds you bring into the country, with a letter from the bank to prove it.

That makes sure the house is your personal asset and not joint property.

If you buy a car, do it in your name, get her to sign a letter saying the car was purchased with your personal money.

Or alternatively buy the car before the marriage.

[kamalabob2]

Is it your name ONLY on the "permit to build" that you filed and paid for at the local government office that issues such a document? If you in fact have a proper, very modest in cost "permit to build" proper document, you will find that the utility connections will go much smoother with zero change of a shakedown. It is NOT difficult to obtain a "permit to build" in only a Farang name, married or not married. The Usufruct is a much wiser choice than a lease in my observation, certainly far less costly than a lease for both parties.

[mackes]

I can emphasize the marriage question, after you registred a marriage you can NOT obtain a usufruct from your wife!

I choose to use a local contractor for my house building. He is an engaged politican in the village and solve all permit questions. The contract with him is in my name.

[TommoPhysicist]

I can emphasize the marriage question, after you registred a marriage you can NOT obtain a usufruct from your wife!

I choose to use a local contractor for my house building. He is an engaged politican in the village and solve all permit questions. The contract with him is in my name.

You can, but she can cancel it on divorce, so not much point unless it was to protect you after her death.

[harryfrompattaya]

http://www.thaivisa....ts-in-thailand/

I would skip the first few pages of that topic because what isaanlawyers wrote there is not the complete story. As always lawyers/agents etc who make money on these things leave out the small but o so important details.

I would use the standard usufruct agreement available at the landoffice and register the usufruct for 100 baht (or was it 120, not remember) for life, not write down a specific term. They will tell your soon to be wife what it means for her. That contract is very short and because of that it is a much stronger contract then one full with extra clauses that makes everything cloudy and open for interpretation. The form is made by the government and as such it will always be recognized by courts if that unfortunate moment arrives.

No taxes have to be paid as would be the case with a lease.

Do it before the marriage and your good for life.

If one buys a used house can one get a usufruct from a girl friend is this better than lease?

[LennyW]

If one buys a used house can one get a usufruct from a girl friend is this better than lease?

Yes and yes.

[johnnybgood]

Good question from the OP, my situation is very similiar, I also live in the midst of my wife's family.

There are too many questions regarding 'Thai elastic rule of law'.

At the land office, there seems to be some sort of declaration a foreign spouse should sign. Has anyone NOT signed it.

I wasn't here, so I know I haven't signed. Yet, there is my wife's name (my surname) on the chanote.

So what are the divorce implications?

Does it matter what a foreigner can be awarded when one cannot get blood from a stone?

The lawyer and the system will now need even more cash from me to proceed further.

Thais evicted? Not likely.

When my time comes, I know it will be me versus 60 million Thais.

Thanks TV as usual.

[mackes]

There are too many questions regarding 'Thai elastic rule of law'.

At the land office, there seems to be some sort of declaration a foreign spouse should sign. Has anyone NOT signed it.

The usufruct rule is quite clear and not elastic.

Owner of land register a person (on the chanot) who will have exclusive right to the land of the chanot.

This person can do the same things on the land as if he owned it but not sell it.

The registration is done for a limited time or for the lifetime of that person.

You don't need a lawyer for this registration, there is a standard form at the land office.

I have not signed anything but the usufruct agreeement.

[johnnybgood]

" I have not signed anything but the usufruct agreeement."

Was there an English translation available of the land office document you signed?

I've signed too many things only on trust - and I hope that doesn't come back to haunt me.

I once posted an English translation of a Thai Amphur document it's in the TV divorce section --- this isn't relevant on your thread and hope you never need go there ;-)

[hyperboyz9]

Marriage is not allowed for leasing hold if the land is under your wife name. Although you got married, it's her land following Thai legal. If you don't mind about married and have baby for being together. It must be better to protect yours.

[mackes]

" I have not signed anything but the usufruct agreeement."

Was there an English translation available of the land office document you signed?

I've signed too many things only on trust - and I hope that doesn't come back to haunt me.

I once posted an English translation of a Thai Amphur document it's in the TV divorce section --- this isn't relevant on your thread and hope you never need go there ;-)

No there was not, I found this translation on the net for the standard document and it seems to match mine.

[johnnybgood]

^ That looks good --- I'll have a read with my breakfast.

Edited April 10, 2012 by johnnybgood

[johnnybgood]

I've copied the 'Letter of Conformation' from the link provided to the lawyers website by BM mackes. Thanks.

If this document is not used how legal is the land sale ?

How did the land sale go ahead without the document ?

What would happen in the event of a divorce - without this declaration the land would be joint property and therefore 50/50 as with the house and movables ?

But yet a foreigner can't own land, so why bother with any documents and 'lawyers' fees ?

Anyone...........?

[johnnybgood]

[LennyW]

I've copied the 'Letter of Conformation' from the link provided to the lawyers website by BM mackes. Thanks.

If this document is not used how legal is the land sale ?

How did the land sale go ahead without the document ?

What would happen in the event of a divorce - without this declaration the land would be joint property and therefore 50/50 as with the house and movables ?

But yet a foreigner can't own land, so why bother with any documents and 'lawyers' fees ?

Anyone...........?

Sorry, i was looking at the wrong document.

Edited April 12, 2012 by LennyW

[mackes]

The usufruct document has nothing to do with landsale or inventories. It simply gives you the right to use the land for whatever you want, for example build a house that you own.

You can even tell the landowner to leave the land!

The landowner can sell the land but there is hardly anyone buying land they cannot use for their own purpose.

Usufruct is only for you, cannot be inherited but I read somewhere that you can lease out the land and the lease contract is valible as written even after you died.

[johnnybgood]

Hi, this may be of interest to some, maybe a bit off the point in places. However I'm bored and banged up in my house [on the wife's land] until the local water+chemical abuse finishes

I lifted this from Stick's website.

Question 3: I am married to a Thai lady and we are legally married. We have a house, 6 rai of land and a new vehicle. All, of course, are in her name. She has changed her last name to mine. We have a will. I wonder what specifics we should ensure are in the will in case she is deceased before me? I also want to know what I would have to do to settle the estate if she predeceases me, especially regarding land, house and vehicle.

Sunbelt responds: If you signed a document stating that the land and house were not purchased with your money and are not part of the marital assets then you would have no right of inheritance without a will. However, if she did not sign this document then, without a will, it would first be 50% yours as a marital asset then the remaining 50% would be distributed equally among the 3 heirs; you, and her father and mother (if still living). Section 93 of the Land Code Act states that "A foreigner who acquires land by inheritance as statutory heir can have an ownership in such land upon a permission of the Minister of Interior. However, the total plots of land shall not be exceeding of those specified in Section 87".

You as a foreigner who is married to a Thai national are considered a statutory heir under the inheritance laws of Thailand and therefore, you can apply for ownership according to section 93 of the Thailand Land Code Act. However, as a foreign national, ownership of such land will not be allowed. Thailand has no outstanding treaty with any country to allow a foreigner to acquire land and no minister will allow a foreigner to inherit land in Thailand. Under present laws, any foreigner who acquires land by inheritance must dispose of the land within a reasonable period (up to 1 year) to a Thai national. If the foreigner fails to dispose of the land, the Director-General of the Land Department is authorised to dispose of the land and retain a fee of 5% of the sale price before any deductions or taxes. The proceeds from the sale of such land is then inherited by you as part of the Last Will & Testament.

Exceptions can be made and the foreigner can be gifted with land ownership of up to 1 rai, but in practice, we never see that happen as it has to go through the Ministry of Interior and Land Office (the provincial branch and the head quarter). The most possible and likely outcome would be for the foreign inheritance to sell the land. But prior to that stage, an executor of the estate must be established. If that executor is not the party who would be inheriting the land (such as the relatives), then the executor can act on the foreign inheritance’s behalf in liquidating the land and passing on the funds to the foreigner.

A Usufruct agreement would permit you to enter the property and to occupy the property for the duration of your natural life. Under Thai law, a foreigner can become a holder of a Usufruct. If your intention is to reside at the property rather than disposing of the land in the event of your wife passing away, then registering a Usufruct is advisable. Although you will not be the lawful owner of the land, you will have the right to lease or rent out the land and receive a payment for the occupation of the land pursuant to the rental agreement. You are essentially the property manager of the house and land.

With the usufruct, you are registered on the title deed. The land can never be sold or transferred by the owner of the land until the servitude is terminated. You can also get a yellow book which is a House Registration Certificate (Thor. Ror 13).

So is the Usufruct document all that is required to live on the property? Anyone??

[mackes]

You will have the right to lease or rent out the land and receive a payment for the occupation of the land pursuant to the rental agreement.

The land can never be sold or transferred by the owner of the land until the servitude is terminated.

The original purpose with the usufruct rule is for a land owner to be able to grant someone the right to use the

land for cultivation and there might be a rejection of the application from the land office if the usufrutuary is a

foreigner with the motivation that it is a way to circumvent the law that prohibit foreigner to own land.

Two interesting question whereas there are different opinion:

1. For a lease contract from a usufructuary to be valid the landowner has to approve and sign the agreement.

2. The land can be sold if the buyer accept the usufruct.

Anyone who knows?

[mackes]

Double

Edited April 15, 2012 by mackes