Inverted Racism In Thailand......

[theblether]

I was reading a topic today and it occured to me that there is quite a lot of farang v farang racism going on in Thailand. The particular issue that caught my attention was the issue of farangs becoming Thai nationals. I'm not accusing anyone involved in that conversation as being racist, but it got me thinking.

You probably know by now that I am Scottish, Scots have emigrated to just about every country in the world and duly take up citizenship in that country. That being said, there have been cases, quite frequently, where Scots that have severe criminal convictions in countries such as Australia, Canada, and the US have been deported back to Scotland. In some of these cases, the individual concerned will could have lived in that country since childhood and not have been back in Scotland for 40 or 50 years in some cases. When these deportations happen it is always because that person has not taken up citizenship in that country. This invariably leaves us home based Scots scratching our heads and wondering why would you want to live in a foreign country all your life and not take up citizenship.

Ok, let's make it relevant to Thailand, there are many ex-pats who have made Thailand there home and have no intention of returning home. Some of these go for citizenship in Thailand and rightly so in my opinion. This is where I detect the first bit of inverted racism though. Many people would regard the ability to gain for example Canadian, Australian or US citizenship as a desirable thing, but they are disdainful of farangs seeking Thai citizenship. On the other hand many newly naturalized Thais seem to have a superioty complex and take delight in castigating and baiting farangs. Inverted racism at its best.

Nationality is one of the foundations of the human condition. It brings with it language, cultural history and a sense of belonging that is essential to most people. Therefore it becomes very emotive, and we have to be careful of not stepping over the line between good natured patriotism and nationalism.

I take great delight in pulling the tail of my English compatriots, but when push comes to shove, these guys are my brothers, and I would defend them. It's good natured banter with a bit of venom, just enough to get the blood pumping but not enough to get blood spilt. The same goes for the joshing between most Western countries. Australians and the English are always going at it and it's a running joke that overseas Americans had to pretend they were Canadians when George W was in power.

I'm ak in favour of the good humoured stuff, but I!m interested as to why people would regard taking up Thai citizenship as a negative step. If its your lifetime home then surely its a natural step? I'm interested to hear the opinion of people who have taken the step, and of long term expats that have either considered the idea and dismissed it or wouldn't consider it at all.

This is a chance to air opinions, I think many people would be interested in the train of thought and experience that people have been through.

Can I politely request that everyone puts away their flame guns, and let's have a reasonable debate, it could be an education for many people considering their position.

[autan]

Please correct me if I am incorrect, but I was led to believe that obtaining Thai Citizenship is around the same odds as winning the National Lottery. Apparently the process involves so many hoop jumping, brown noseing and dare I say corruption hasnt been ruled out completely that only the most dedicated of us, even try.

Add a healthy dose of bueracrazy (Thai Style) and it become undesirable to become a Thai Citizen.

Even if Citizenship is obtained I am also led to believe it can be repealled on a whim and there is an imbalance of rights depending on those born in Thailand and those who choose to become citizens.

So when we hear (expats that is) that some one is going for Citizenship, its a little like saying your going to be a millionaire next year selling English Apples in Bangkok. It is merely seen as a waste of effort and is subsequently looked down up.

Where as if you take countries especially the US, you just need to live there 5 years and contribute and pledge allegiance and your in the club, you become American.

[samran]

A couple of factual points (from my perspective at least).

- In a place like Australia, Brits (I'll lump you all together) essentially have the same rights as Australian citizens if the migrated pre-1983. Voting rights and all. No wonder, according to DIAC, Brits are one of the nationalities least likely to naturalise as Australian citizens.

- As for naturalising at Thai citizens. I believe there are a couple of reasons judging by past comments on this site.

Firstly people believe that it is simply impossible to apply, so don't bother. Then there are others who believe that it is 'all too hard', and simply don't try, and hence we get stupid assumptions like those from the previous poster who compares it to winning the lottery. Then there are those who confuse the 3 to 4 year wait time to get it as some sort of barrier. It isn't. It just requires patience.

Finally, there is are those who simply don't need it. Their retirement visa gives them everything in the way of security they could possibly want. Citizenship is an unnecessary step.

Having seen the rules, if you've got a reasonable track record of a job in Thailand and tax payments, then the door is open. Fair enough too in my book. I don't think citizenship should be given out as a matter of right for 'time served' in a country. You've got to want it, and you've got to have a track record above and beyond passive contribution.

Most of the naturalized Thai's I know are pretty average. They've made a life and career in Thailand, but no more than an average migrant would back in the west.

For me, it isn't a matter of "superiority complex", it is more a bewilderment that people think that it is harder than it actually is!

Edited March 19, 2012 by samran

[DP25]

Becoming a Thai citizen requires learning Thai, which is an insurmountable barrier for most farang living in Thailand. With Chinese and Indians it is a different story.

[samran]

Becoming a Thai citizen requires learning Thai, which is an insurmountable barrier for most farang living in Thailand. With Chinese and Indians it is a different story.

Why?

[submaniac]

Becoming a Thai citizen requires learning Thai, which is an insurmountable barrier for most farang living in Thailand. With Chinese and Indians it is a different story.

Not really. The only Thai you really need to know is how to sing the national anthem.

Edited March 19, 2012 by submaniac

[TexasRanger]

Becoming a Thai citizen requires learning Thai, which is an insurmountable barrier for most farang living in Thailand. With Chinese and Indians it is a different story.

Yeah, if you are lazy or stupid. Everyone can learn Thai, it is easier for some than others but everyone can learn it, some just can't be bothered and whinge that it's too hard.

[samran]

^^

Not really. The only Thai you really need to know is how to sing the national anthem.

Exactly, Thai requirement is certainty a requirement for some, but it doesn't require anything near fluency. Another 'bar stool' myth.

And for some, those married to Thai's, the requirement to sing is totally waived.

[DP25]

Becoming a Thai citizen requires learning Thai, which is an insurmountable barrier for most farang living in Thailand. With Chinese and Indians it is a different story.

Why?

It shouldn't be a barrier in my opinion, but few farang living here ever seem to learn the language. Chinese and Indians seem to learn it much quicker

[DP25]

Becoming a Thai citizen requires learning Thai, which is an insurmountable barrier for most farang living in Thailand. With Chinese and Indians it is a different story.

Not really. The only Thai you really need to know is how to sing the national anthem.

From the reports of people on this forum who have done it, they had to do a Thai language interview in addition to the anthem. I don't know what level they require, but that is going to be far beyond what most living here are capable of

[samran]

Becoming a Thai citizen requires learning Thai, which is an insurmountable barrier for most farang living in Thailand. With Chinese and Indians it is a different story.

Not really. The only Thai you really need to know is how to sing the national anthem.

From the reports of people on this forum who have done it, they had to do a Thai language interview in addition to the anthem. I don't know what level they require, but that is going to be far beyond what most living here are capable of

Natural selection then I guess.

[chrisinth]

Just last night I was talking to an Australian (living in Chiang Mai) who has been a permanent resident for the last 18 years. The subject of citizenship came up as we were talking about the advantages of citizenship over PR. And that basically comes down to the right to vote and not having to have a work permit, the later being non-applicable as the person is in his late 60's/early 70's. The two ways to lose it are if you aquire a criminal record, or are out of the country for more than 364 days.

He checked through the lawyer firm he has used for the last 30 years (a good relationship built up over that time) 3 years ago about citizenship. The lawyer told him that he "qualified" in all the fields (based on a point system) and he had no doubt that he would get it if he wanted it. He was then advised that it would cost him in the region of 5 million Baht, give or take, to secure it.

He said that it wasn't the money that caused him to refuse it, but rather where the money would end up. I didn't understand what he meant by that.

All in all, a very interesting conversation.

[autan]

How many hookers can you get for 5 million baht ?

[HeavyDrinker]

If you have a good degree, a decent job etc, Citizenship just isn't an issue...

Edited March 24, 2012 by Rimmer
unnessary sweeping statement

[Naam]

^^

Not really. The only Thai you really need to know is how to sing the national anthem.

Exactly, Thai requirement is certainty a requirement for some, but it doesn't require anything near fluency. Another 'bar stool' myth.

And for some, those married to Thai's, the requirement to sing is totally waived.

because they have "song" galore at home?

[David48]

Becoming a Thai citizen requires learning Thai, which is an insurmountable barrier for most farang living in Thailand. With Chinese and Indians it is a different story.

Why?

samran ... I would like to offer another explanation why sometimes it is difficult to learn another language and my offering may account for less then 1% of those who give up and fail.

I HAVE TRIED ... sooo hard to learn. I studied the various YouTube speakers and try and imitate them.

It took me 1/2 a day to simply learn 'would you like to go eat together' ... bi gin cow gun mai krup (close enough) and I put it down to how my brain is wired.

Again ... the extreme minority, but everyone’s brain is wired differently. I can't sing for nuts ... totally tone deaf and they say that those who can sing have a natural ability to acquire another language.

Am I dumb and lazy ... I hope not.

I have a Business Degree with Honours from University of Queensland and topped the State in Quantitative Analysis... but I'll be buggered if I can replicate language. I have no 'feel' for it. Plus I have the short term memory of a goldfish … approx. 3 seconds!

All I do learn is simple parrot Thai with perfect tone, indeed when I do speak others then blether on with a Thai conversation to me as if I actually understood them.

I don't know how many fingers I'd cut off to speak even easy Thai.

Rant over ... please return to normal service.

ps, samran thanks for linking your post on conscription, I learnt a lot from that.

.

Edited March 19, 2012 by David48

[David48]

This invariably leaves us home based Scots scratching our heads and wondering why would you want to live in a foreign country all your life and not take up citizenship.

Are the Scots and New Zealanders (living in Australia) have the same mind set?

[HeavyDrinker]

David, find a system that is suited to YOU.

There really are some iffy methodologies around when it comes to learning Thai.

You deserve huge credit for even trying pal. Many don't.

[sbk]

Just last night I was talking to an Australian (living in Chiang Mai) who has been a permanent resident for the last 18 years. The subject of citizenship came up as we were talking about the advantages of citizenship over PR. And that basically comes down to the right to vote and not having to have a work permit, the later being non-applicable as the person is in his late 60's/early 70's. The two ways to lose it are if you aquire a criminal record, or are out of the country for more than 364 days.

He checked through the lawyer firm he has used for the last 30 years (a good relationship built up over that time) 3 years ago about citizenship. The lawyer told him that he "qualified" in all the fields (based on a point system) and he had no doubt that he would get it if he wanted it. He was then advised that it would cost him in the region of 5 million Baht, give or take, to secure it.

He said that it wasn't the money that caused him to refuse it, but rather where the money would end up. I didn't understand what he meant by that.

All in all, a very interesting conversation.

Over the years I have met a few people who have obtained citizenship as well as a few who have posted on this forum and none of them paid 5 million Baht. So either your friend did not qualify or he was fed a very large load of Bs.

[David48]

One contributing factor to answer the question of

but I!m interested as to why people would regard taking up Thai citizenship as a negative step

might be that the demographics of those wishing to settle permeantly in Thailand most likely will be past the half way point in life i.e. 40+ and, as you mature, your desire and maybe ability to accept change diminishes.

[Soutpeel]

Over the years I have met a few people who have obtained citizenship as well as a few who have posted on this forum and none of them paid 5 million Baht. So either your friend did not qualify or he was fed a very large load of Bs.

Agreed and back to Thai languge debate as a requirement, The UK in the last couple of years now requires an English language test as well as part of the requirements for both "PR" and citizenship, so Thailand is not alone in this regard

[chrisinth]

Just last night I was talking to an Australian (living in Chiang Mai) who has been a permanent resident for the last 18 years. The subject of citizenship came up as we were talking about the advantages of citizenship over PR. And that basically comes down to the right to vote and not having to have a work permit, the later being non-applicable as the person is in his late 60's/early 70's. The two ways to lose it are if you aquire a criminal record, or are out of the country for more than 364 days.

He checked through the lawyer firm he has used for the last 30 years (a good relationship built up over that time) 3 years ago about citizenship. The lawyer told him that he "qualified" in all the fields (based on a point system) and he had no doubt that he would get it if he wanted it. He was then advised that it would cost him in the region of 5 million Baht, give or take, to secure it.

He said that it wasn't the money that caused him to refuse it, but rather where the money would end up. I didn't understand what he meant by that.

All in all, a very interesting conversation.

Over the years I have met a few people who have obtained citizenship as well as a few who have posted on this forum and none of them paid 5 million Baht. So either your friend did not qualify or he was fed a very large load of Bs.

I have no doubt what-so-ever that he would qualify; the second part is exactly what I was thinking as he was saying it. That said, I think he recognised it for what it was and refused.

But I think the main point of my original post was the lack of advantages of citizenship over PR.

[colinp]

One contributing factor to answer the question of

but I!m interested as to why people would regard taking up Thai citizenship as a negative step

might be that the demographics of those wishing to settle permeantly in Thailand most likely will be past the half way point in life i.e. 40+ and, as you mature, your desire and maybe ability to accept change diminishes.

I wonder if its because most (not all) move to Thailand after a considerable time in their home country (country of origin) so a strong sense of nationality has been impregnated.

[IMA_FARANG]

To be very clear...i see no particular advantage...at least in my case...of bothering to take the trouble to get either Thai citizenship or Thai residence (permanent residence status, I mean).

Other people may disagree...but there's nothing in Thai citizenship or permanent residence I see worthwhile.

I am originally from the U.S. but I've worked all over the world in at least half a dozen countries. I was never a citizen of any of them either.

Now I'm retired, and living with my Thai family. That;s where i intend to stay.

But if I had to leave, if I were forced out, I'd just leave.

My feeling is that I don't live in a place,I live in my mind.

That way, no matter where I happen to be, I'm always in my "home country"....my mind.

As they say "your mileage may vary"...but that's the way i feel about my "home". As long as I know where I am, I'm always "home".

Edited March 19, 2012 by IMA_FARANG

[Thanyaburi Mac]

I'd have liked the PR status and indeed, applied a few years back. Unfortunately, for me, it was during Min Of Interior Purachai's time and he dropped the category of "retirement" extensions as being eligible to apply. So, didn't get it.

The advantage of PR? One, I'd think, is that less likely to have the financial or other requirements for a "marriage" or "retirement" extension be jacked up, as they were in October 1998. Happily, I got my first one in May that year so am grandfathered on the financial side.

Then, of course, the cost of the PR status went way up so out of sight for me these days.

Mac

[exeter]

How many hookers can you get for 5 million baht ?

Or indeed bent nails from Issan?

[exeter]

Just a question , if you take up Thai citizenship do you have to relenquish your home citizenship or can you have dual nationality?

No matter what I think of the way UKPLC is operated I am still and Englishman and would not want to lose that or my UK citizenship, if I took out Thai citizenship and it was taken away for whatever reason ( playing Bingo on a sunday afternoon perhaps) I might become a stateless person.

[David48]

Just a question , if you take up Thai citizenship do you have to relenquish your home citizenship or can you have dual nationality?

No matter what I think of the way UKPLC is operated I am still and Englishman and would not want to lose that or my UK citizenship, if I took out Thai citizenship and it was taken away for whatever reason ( playing Bingo on a sunday afternoon perhaps) I might become a stateless person.

Interesting question.

A child of a Thai and say England / Australian etc as of right, receive duel nationality and hence 2 Passports.

Logic would suggest that nationality equates to citizenship.

I'm sure mine won't be the only reply.

(... just don't mention the pension, it's quietly sleeping for the moment and it needs a good rest just now!)

[samran]

@David 48.

There are many ways to skin a cat. Obviously you have a brain where logic works best.

Based on that, perhaps you should look to learning the language, bottom up so to speak, by learning to read and write.

Thought there are exceptions in every language, the Thai tonal rules can be broken down essentially into a one page table, which if you think of it that way, is a set of rules for constructing formula's for reading and writing a word.

Simply, if a word starts with letter class 'x', has a 'y' class letter in the middle, and ends with 'z' class letter it will have a certain type of tone.

Each formula can be modified with a tone marker, which changes the tone weighting on a word (to badly mix my mathematical metaphors!!).

I didn't start learning to read Thai properly till I was 18, and I grew up speaking it badly. But, being a bit of an economist myself, once I saw the tone rules, things started making alot more sense!

[villagefarang]

I moved here right after finishing university. During the last 35 years Thailand has been my home. Sure I have traveled and there was a period, like after getting married, where the wife and I divided our time between Thailand and my home country. Even then we spent more time in Thailand than there.

When I was young and citizenship more easily acquired I didn’t have the money and had no idea where I would be ten or twenty years down the road so there was no urgency. In the end maintaining my nationality provided greater flexibility in life. My country frowns on those who pledge allegiance to other nations and I have filial obligations to this day which make revoking citizenship in my home country problematic.

To be honest I see myself more as a citizen of the world who chooses to live here in Thailand. I am neither nationalistic nor patriotic and a passport is simply a necessary tool that facilitates mobility in this overly regulated world. So in short I would have gained nothing by obtaining Thai citizenship. Sure I like living here but it is because of the lifestyle I enjoy and not for some patriotic reasons.

I have learned to embrace uncertainty and change over the years and have never had a problem adjusting.