Inverted Racism In Thailand......

[ollyKS]

I have met a few people that have done it and their reports always vastly greatly from people who are going through it. It is a long and boring process, but is not particularly difficult. I think the stories of how impossible it is come from people that quit halfway through because they are bored of it or cannot be bothered. If you are going to stay here for the rest of your life you may as well do it. Especially if you have a wife/girlfriend willing to do the boring bits for you.

[exeter]

I have met a few people that have done it and their reports always vastly greatly from people who are going through it. It is a long and boring process, but is not particularly difficult. I think the stories of how impossible it is come from people that quit halfway through because they are bored of it or cannot be bothered. If you are going to stay here for the rest of your life you may as well do it. Especially if you have a wife/girlfriend willing to do the boring bits for you.

But do you have to relinquish your original citizenship or can you be a dual national, having 2 passports? Anybody know?

Does the Thaksin situation hold any clues, or the Abhisit ( born in the UK) question, he is entitled to 2 passports although likely only uses the Thai one.

[NewlyMintedThai]

You do not have to relinquish anything. I happily hold a Thai passport and one from my country of birth.

The 5 million baht statement is completely laughable, yet typical of how a lawyer will fleece you.

[vpi78]

How many hookers can you get for 5 million baht ?

Or indeed bent nails from Issan?

Well, from Beach Road in Pattaya it would be about 10,000 of them at the going rate of 500 each ... so I hear.

[Sophon]

I would love to have Thai citizenship, but won't apply for two reasons:

1. I am retired and have have not worked in Thailand, so I am pretty sure that I would not be approved anyway.

2. Getting Thai citizenship would mean losing the citizenship I was born into. And while there are advantages having Thai citizenship that I would love to have (e.g. the right to own land), my present nationality also brings with it advantages I do not want to lose (e.g. easy immigration requirements for many countries).

Sophon

[regine]

I have met a few people that have done it and their reports always vastly greatly from people who are going through it. It is a long and boring process, but is not particularly difficult. I think the stories of how impossible it is come from people that quit halfway through because they are bored of it or cannot be bothered. If you are going to stay here for the rest of your life you may as well do it. Especially if you have a wife/girlfriend willing to do the boring bits for you.

But do you have to relinquish your original citizenship or can you be a dual national, having 2 passports? Anybody know?

Does the Thaksin situation hold any clues, or the Abhisit ( born in the UK) question, he is entitled to 2 passports although likely only uses the Thai one.

Depends on which country you currently hold citizenship from. Some have the automatic loss of citizenship if you voluntarily acquire citizenship elsewhere (Eg. Denmark, Norway). Thai nationals don't loose their Thai citizenship when they acquire voluntary citizenship elsewhere. Many Thais (not just the 2 ex-pms you mentioned) hold 2 (or more!) passports.

When one becomes a naturalized Thai you aren't forced to give up your original citizenship.

Edited March 19, 2012 by regine

[Jingthing]

I don't want Thai citizenship but I would like permanent residence. I don't think it's racism at all. Rather just basically a business decision. That is, IF it was actually possible for me to get Thai citizenship OR permanent residence. Which it is not.

[regine]

Over the years I have met a few people who have obtained citizenship as well as a few who have posted on this forum and none of them paid 5 million Baht. So either your friend did not qualify or he was fed a very large load of Bs.

Agreed and back to Thai languge debate as a requirement, The UK in the last couple of years now requires an English language test as well as part of the requirements for both "PR" and citizenship, so Thailand is not alone in this regard

Language requirements for immigration seem to be a no brainer. I really don't know why it took Western countries so long to catch on... How can one expect immigrants to integrate if they can't even speak the language?

Thailand's immigration policies IMO are well thought out. Look at Sino-Thais and how well they integrated into Thai society. Why, because they were forced to. How many Sino-Thais actually speak and write Chinese? Practically none. How many are completely fluent in Thai and identify themselves as Thai? The majority. Compare this to the immigrant communities elsewhere like in Germany or the UK. Ethnic enclaves and a 2nd/3rd generation that still aren't fully integrated into the culture of that particular country.

Immigrants must integrate, not be accommodated. Thailand has known and practised that philosophy that for hundreds of years.

[StreetCowboy]

Becoming a Thai citizen requires learning Thai, which is an insurmountable barrier for most farang living in Thailand. With Chinese and Indians it is a different story.

Why?

I guess they're not as stupid as us

[Ijustwannateach]

From a former language teacher's perspective, there is some scientific evidence that some (white, European-heritage) foreigners will have more trouble learning Thai potentially than the average Chinese and/or Indian, because of a gene that is linked towards proficiency in tonal languages. This gene is MUCH more common in countries where tonal languages are commonly spoken. It gives me more compassion for the people that I know who have genuinely tried to learn and been repeatedly frustrated (including some linguistic geniuses who are much better at multiple European languages than I am).

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm ok with other foreigners as long as their words and behaviour don't cause offense to me or other people around me, or cause me to look bad by association with them in the context in which we meet. Normally I won't call attention to the problem but will simply quietly fade out. Sometimes the problem is that a mutual friend whom I do respect brings me into connection with them, and I have learned it is best to be clear with the mutual friends when those combinations don't work. Usually over the long haul they come to the same conclusions.

There's just too much to lose to be associated with someone who is going to be a jerk, a thief, a racist, etc., etc.- and then what's the up side? I had very high standards for my friends in the US and I maintain that over here.

[Beetlejuice]

BTW our theblether, this is a good thread and extremely interesting for a refreshing change.

I have witnessed many examples of racism and other forms of prejudices from farangs during my many years in Thailand.

All the old ills are still there within them. Those who believe that they are somehow superior to the Thais, those that consider their nationalities are the supreme of the first world and of course not forgetting the old favourites, anti Semitism, religious bias, and political bias. It`s all there, mostly imported in with them, only need to scratch the surface and you will find it.

As regarding Thai citizenship, personally I would willingly trade in my present nationalities for Thai citizenship. But I have looked into this in great detail and my prognosis was that the Thai authorities have made this far too difficult and complicated. As one poster has already mentioned, applying for Thai citizenship would be like entering a lottery, would require great effort and the odds of succeeding are very slim indeed, especially for us older guys that have difficulties learning to speak, read and write Thai. So for many becoming a Thai is simply out of the question.

But I do not believe this is a bad thing, because giving out citizenships like candy, as does the United States and Britain would be a disaster for Thailand, for reasons that I have mentioned above and could spell the end of Thai culture, as we know it.

I am not anti farang, but do believe in strictly abiding by the laws and policies of Thailand, as there are too many foreign lawbreakers and abusers of the system here. Everything in moderation is Ok, although if I never saw or met another farang again would not concern me as I’m not all that impressed with the mob that seem to be streaming in lately.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[bunta71]

From a former language teacher's perspective, there is some scientific evidence that some (white, European-heritage) foreigners will have more trouble learning Thai potentially than the average Chinese and/or Indian, because of a gene that is linked towards proficiency in tonal languages. This gene is MUCH more common in countries where tonal languages are commonly spoken. It gives me more compassion for the people that I know who have genuinely tried to learn and been repeatedly frustrated (including some linguistic geniuses who are much better at multiple European languages than I am).

Here are my excuses (some are true even) for my difficulties passing any Thai language exam:

40 years of operating very heavy equipment and flying noisy Supercubs my ears are kaput and I have a hard time hearing the tones.

Through some health challenges that give me some debilitating seizures about once a year has done serious damage to some of my abilities. After these seizures it takes me a month to type correctly for example.

My iphone has a free English / Thai translation app....

[F1fanatic]

@David 48.

There are many ways to skin a cat. Obviously you have a brain where logic works best.

Based on that, perhaps you should look to learning the language, bottom up so to speak, by learning to read and write.

Thought there are exceptions in every language, the Thai tonal rules can be broken down essentially into a one page table, which if you think of it that way, is a set of rules for constructing formula's for reading and writing a word.

Simply, if a word starts with letter class 'x', has a 'y' class letter in the middle, and ends with 'z' class letter it will have a certain type of tone.

Each formula can be modified with a tone marker, which changes the tone weighting on a word (to badly mix my mathematical metaphors!!).

I didn't start learning to read Thai properly till I was 18, and I grew up speaking it badly. But, being a bit of an economist myself, once I saw the tone rules, things started making alot more sense!

Its not quite that simple. Some people have a natural gift for languages - others struggle badly regardless of whether or not the language is tonal.

David 48 - I was v interested to read your post as I'd always wondered why I (and all my family) are so bad at learning foreign languages!

[manarak]

Even if Citizenship is obtained I am also led to believe it can be repealled on a whim

That's interesting, because it contradicts totally the spirit and practices of the state granting citizenship - what is one supposed to do after abandoning his original citizenship to become Thai and then the Thai government repeals his passport?

Do you have examples of cases where Thai citizenship was repealed?

[manarak]

Just a question , if you take up Thai citizenship do you have to relenquish your home citizenship or can you have dual nationality?

No matter what I think of the way UKPLC is operated I am still and Englishman and would not want to lose that or my UK citizenship, if I took out Thai citizenship and it was taken away for whatever reason ( playing Bingo on a sunday afternoon perhaps) I might become a stateless person.

I think I recall reading here that the answer is:

"in theory, Thai citizenship is exclusive, but in practice, many people have dual citizenship with Thailand"

[NewlyMintedThai]

Even if Citizenship is obtained I am also led to believe it can be repealled on a whim

That's interesting, because it contradicts totally the spirit and practices of the state granting citizenship - what is one supposed to do after abandoning his original citizenship to become Thai and then the Thai government repeals his passport?

Do you have examples of cases where Thai citizenship was repealed?

It cannot be revoked "on a whim". That is a completely bogus statement.

[Soutpeel]

Even if Citizenship is obtained I am also led to believe it can be repealled on a whim

That's interesting, because it contradicts totally the spirit and practices of the state granting citizenship - what is one supposed to do after abandoning his original citizenship to become Thai and then the Thai government repeals his passport?

Do you have examples of cases where Thai citizenship was repealed?

It cannot be revoked "on a whim". That is a completely bogus statement.

Exactly.....you generally will have had to do something very very bad to get citizenship pulled.

[Sing_Sling]

You do not have to relinquish anything. I happily hold a Thai passport and one from my country of birth.

The 5 million baht statement is completely laughable, yet typical of how a lawyer will fleece you.

Not quite true. Thailand has a one-citizenship rule, with a few exceptions.

Most countries have a single-citizenship rule, so if you take up another citizenship you have to give up your original one.

Dual Citizenship Permitted

Australia, Barbados, Belgium, Bangladesh, Canada, Cyprus, United States, United Kingdom, Switzerland, South Korea, South Africa (requires permission) , Egypt(requires prior permission), Greece, France, Finland, Germany (requires prior permission), Iraq, Italy, Israel, Ireland, Hungary, Iceland, Sweden, Slovenia, Syria, Serbia, Armenia, Lebanon, Malta, Spain ( allows only with certain Latin american countries), Tonga, Phillipines, Sierra Leone, Sri Lanka (by retention), Pakistan (accepts only with 16 countries), Portual, Turkey (requires permission)

Dual Citizenship not permitted:

Andorra, Austria, Azerbaijan ,Burma, Bahrain, Botswana, Japan, China ,Czech Republic, Denmark, Fiji,India,Indonesia, Ecuador, Estonia, Iran, Poland, Papua New Guinea, Brunei, Japan, Peru, Kuwait , Kenya, Kazakhstan, Chile, Kiribati, Poland, Korea, Kuwait, Denmark, Latvia,Singapore, Slovakia, Ecuador, Lithuania, Solomon Islands ,Fiji ,Malaysia, Mauritius, Netherlands, United Arab Emirates (UAE), Romania, Thailand, Mexico, Nepal, Venezuela, Norway, Zimbabwe, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nepal

http://www.best-citizenships.com/dual-citizenship-countries.htm

[Sing_Sling]

There's your problem . . . you're a banana-bender . . UQ on top of that!!!

[NewlyMintedThai]

You do not have to relinquish anything. I happily hold a Thai passport and one from my country of birth.

The 5 million baht statement is completely laughable, yet typical of how a lawyer will fleece you.

Not quite true. Thailand has a one-citizenship rule, with a few exceptions.

Most countries have a single-citizenship rule, so if you take up another citizenship you have to give up your original one.

Dual Citizenship Permitted

Australia, Barbados, Belgium, Bangladesh, Canada, Cyprus, United States, United Kingdom, Switzerland, South Korea, South Africa (requires permission) , Egypt(requires prior permission), Greece, France, Finland, Germany (requires prior permission), Iraq, Italy, Israel, Ireland, Hungary, Iceland, Sweden, Slovenia, Syria, Serbia, Armenia, Lebanon, Malta, Spain ( allows only with certain Latin american countries), Tonga, Phillipines, Sierra Leone, Sri Lanka (by retention), Pakistan (accepts only with 16 countries), Portual, Turkey (requires permission)

Dual Citizenship not permitted:

Andorra, Austria, Azerbaijan ,Burma, Bahrain, Botswana, Japan, China ,Czech Republic, Denmark, Fiji,India,Indonesia, Ecuador, Estonia, Iran, Poland, Papua New Guinea, Brunei, Japan, Peru, Kuwait , Kenya, Kazakhstan, Chile, Kiribati, Poland, Korea, Kuwait, Denmark, Latvia,Singapore, Slovakia, Ecuador, Lithuania, Solomon Islands ,Fiji ,Malaysia, Mauritius, Netherlands, United Arab Emirates (UAE), Romania, Thailand, Mexico, Nepal, Venezuela, Norway, Zimbabwe, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nepal

http://www.best-citizenships.com/dual-citizenship-countries.htm

Your link to the contrary, I am a naturalized Thai citizen who still holds his original nationality. No mention has ever been made of any need to renounce it.

[Sing_Sling]

Thailand does not accept dual nationality past the age of 18 or so, I believe

Do you have a Thai passport? Have you applied for one? Perhaps the question will be raised then.

A brief word to a mate at the embassy confirms it, though . . . I guess the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy comes into effect.

I know that when I had to renew my passport I was asked if I had taken any other citizenship . . . a 'yes' would have meant trouble. I don't have the same issue with my Oz pp

[NewlyMintedThai]

Thailand does not accept dual nationality past the age of 18 or so, I believe

Do you have a Thai passport? Have you applied for one? Perhaps the question will be raised then.

A brief word to a mate at the embassy confirms it, though . . . I guess the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy comes into effect.

I know that when I had to renew my passport I was asked if I had taken any other citizenship . . . a 'yes' would have meant trouble. I don't have the same issue with my Oz pp

Yes, I have a Thai passport. No issues whatsoever. In fact, they asked to see my US passport in order to verify my place of birth.

Not recognizing dusl nationalitu and forbidding it are two separate things, by the way. To the Thai government, you are a Thai and only a Thai when on their soil.

[Sing_Sling]

Not recognizing dusl nationalitu and forbidding it are two separate things, by the way. To the Thai government, you are a Thai and only a Thai when on their soil.

Not true if it concerns the issuing country, of course a third country couldn't give a rat's arse but that is a moot point as that is not the point of this discussion.

Also not true that the Thai government is only concerned with what you are when you are here . . . where did you hear that?

[Trembly]

I've had multiple (including Thai) citizenship since birth. Me and my parents were always told (sometimes triumphantly, it seemed) that I would have to choose whether to relinquish Thai citizenship or the others when I reached the age of majority in Thailand. We didn't know if this was true, but we heard it often enough. What we did know was that I really didn't want to choose at all, what with the considerable advantages conferred by having Thai citizenship in Thailand and the other citizenships in the rest of the world. The answer to this little conundrum came as quickly as it was obvious; don't ask, don't tell!

As it happens I later found out that having multiple citizenships is absolutely OK in Thailand, not withstanding that the authorities aren't likely to bother themselves with contacting the foreign ministries of other countries just to ascertain your citizenship status unless you are a very naughty, bad, infamous person, or something like that (you might have guessed that Thai government computers are not directly linked to those of <Insert country>).

I've had many 'close calls' and ran many imaginary bureaucratic gauntlets in the days that I thought myself a fugitive from citizenship law and what I've discovered is that the Thai authorities themselves are usually not very clear about this rule. When I was 'discovered' I found the reaction akin to how I imagine a policeman would react to two underage teenagers declaring that they've just had sex; unless you've made an enemy of them they'll laughingly tell you to stop being so silly and just put your other passport(s) away in a discreet place. More often than not I would simply be congratulated on my good fortune.

Having said all that, I can't understand why any foreigner who has made Thailand is home and qualifies would not want Thai citizenship other than through sheer laziness, or perhaps some fervent and personal sense of nationalistic loyalty.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Trembly

[TexasRanger]

Having said all that, I can't understand why any able and willing foreigner who has made Thailand is home would not want Thai citizenship other than through sheer laziness, or perhaps some sense of fervent patriotic loyalty (?).

Or financial reasons. Plus I really still can't see much more benefit than being on a retirement visa. (not that I am on one of those either).

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[StreetCowboy]

Having said all that, I can't understand why any able and willing foreigner who has made Thailand is home would not want Thai citizenship other than through sheer laziness, or perhaps some sense of fervent patriotic loyalty (?).

Or financial reasons. Plus I really still can't see much more benefit than being on a retirement visa. (not that I am on one of those either).

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

If you have dual citizenship, your 'home country' will not use its consular powers to assist you against persecution by your adopted country.

SC

[samran]

You do not have to relinquish anything. I happily hold a Thai passport and one from my country of birth.

The 5 million baht statement is completely laughable, yet typical of how a lawyer will fleece you.

Not quite true. Thailand has a one-citizenship rule, with a few exceptions.

Most countries have a single-citizenship rule, so if you take up another citizenship you have to give up your original one.

Dual Citizenship Permitted

Australia, Barbados, Belgium, Bangladesh, Canada, Cyprus, United States, United Kingdom, Switzerland, South Korea, South Africa (requires permission) , Egypt(requires prior permission), Greece, France, Finland, Germany (requires prior permission), Iraq, Italy, Israel, Ireland, Hungary, Iceland, Sweden, Slovenia, Syria, Serbia, Armenia, Lebanon, Malta, Spain ( allows only with certain Latin american countries), Tonga, Phillipines, Sierra Leone, Sri Lanka (by retention), Pakistan (accepts only with 16 countries), Portual, Turkey (requires permission)

Dual Citizenship not permitted:

Andorra, Austria, Azerbaijan ,Burma, Bahrain, Botswana, Japan, China ,Czech Republic, Denmark, Fiji,India,Indonesia, Ecuador, Estonia, Iran, Poland, Papua New Guinea, Brunei, Japan, Peru, Kuwait , Kenya, Kazakhstan, Chile, Kiribati, Poland, Korea, Kuwait, Denmark, Latvia,Singapore, Slovakia, Ecuador, Lithuania, Solomon Islands ,Fiji ,Malaysia, Mauritius, Netherlands, United Arab Emirates (UAE), Romania, Thailand, Mexico, Nepal, Venezuela, Norway, Zimbabwe, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nepal

http://www.best-citizenships.com/dual-citizenship-countries.htm

For fukcs sake. When will people realise that just because it is on the interweb doesn't make it frigging true?

Wouldn't it be better simply to link the law instead of some two bit website?

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND's_Nationality_Act.htm

Posts and links like yours make my book boil as the simply reinforce falsehoods.

Thailand simply hasn't had an issue with dual nationality since 1992. In all but a few limiting circumstances, there is simply no issue with it, and certainly none with 99.99% of people who hold multiple passports need to worry about.

The is NO requirement at 18 to do anything, it isn't even mentioned in the law.

Edited March 19, 2012 by samran

[SlyAnimal]

I'd quite like to have Thai citizenship, so long as I retain my NZ Citizenship of course. I'd hate to have to go and apply for a visa every time I wanted to visit Australia or England etc for a holiday (However not applying for visas to visit ASEAN countries will be something handy from Thai citizenship)

From what I've read about it, the Thai requirement is reasonably easy, just sorta functional Thai rather than being able to discuss politics or anything fancy.

It's interesting reading a lot of the comments from posters who haven't tried to learn Thai, most assume that because the tones are difficult that it's not worth bothering. My Thai isn't amazing by any means, and my tones are terrible, however you don't need to have the tones perfect at all. When you speak to Thai people, they can understand you based on context, even if your tone is off, in a similar way that we understand people when their grammer is off. Imagine if English grammer was what put people off trying to learn English? Most people would never learn the language. I'm suree that incorrect tones wouldn't cause you to fail in the Thai citizenship language test.

But yeah, I am looking forward to when I'm able to apply for PR and citizenship. I don't for a heartbeat believe the tales of huge amounts being needed in order to get citizenship, of course some lawyers might ask for large amounts.... because they might want to make things easier via bribes (I'm sure that it's very possible that you might be turned down, even if you think you meet the requirements, there is a quota afterall and it's at immigration's discretion, not your own, as to how well you meet the requirements) and to of course line their own pockets

[Trembly]

Having said all that, I can't understand why any able and willing foreigner who has made Thailand is home would not want Thai citizenship other than through sheer laziness, or perhaps some sense of fervent patriotic loyalty (?).

Or financial reasons. Plus I really still can't see much more benefit than being on a retirement visa. (not that I am on one of those either).

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

If you have dual citizenship, your 'home country' will not use its consular powers to assist you against persecution by your adopted country.

SC

A valid point StreetCowboy.

Question : Can you . . .

- Own property outright and pass it on to your kin / sell it.

- Own more than 49% of a business

. . . with a retirement visa ?

I confess to not knowing the answer to this question although I have my suspicions.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Trembly