Inverted Racism In Thailand......

[anterian]

I think taking out Thai nationality is fooling yourself, no matter how many years you live here you will always be a farang. I have a friend, a fourth generation Indian, as a child he thought he was Thai, his citizen card and passport says he is Thai, but the Thais in many subtle ways make it clear he is not.

You are confusing ethnicity and nationality. Naturally, you don't cease to be a farang when you obtain Thai nationality. Your hair and skin don't change color and your eyes don't change shape. That should be fairly obvious, shouldn't it?

No I am not confusing ethnicity with nationality, I am referring to perceptions and attitudes. Because if you are clearly, visually, non Thai, you will never be able to behave as a Thai in many situations. That should be fairly obvious, shouldn't it?

[beachyman]

Not really what op is talking about but I have met a lot of passive aggressive types through work and networking just because I have a farang wife.

Seems like most ppl think i am judgmental because I have not chosen to be with a thai which is nonsense - i am just not into Asian girls, but i love thailand. I have no qualms with who anybody is with and it makes me no less knowledgable about Thailand or culture for that regard. It's been kind of a pain though because most of our couple friends are farang couples bc most farang thai couples we meet are not too keen on hanging out. Strange I think bc we are both young attractive educated and fun but so be it.

[NewlyMintedThai]

I think taking out Thai nationality is fooling yourself, no matter how many years you live here you will always be a farang. I have a friend, a fourth generation Indian, as a child he thought he was Thai, his citizen card and passport says he is Thai, but the Thais in many subtle ways make it clear he is not.

You are confusing ethnicity and nationality. Naturally, you don't cease to be a farang when you obtain Thai nationality. Your hair and skin don't change color and your eyes don't change shape. That should be fairly obvious, shouldn't it?

No I am not confusing ethnicity with nationality, I am referring to perceptions and attitudes. Because if you are clearly, visually, non Thai, you will never be able to behave as a Thai in many situations. That should be fairly obvious, shouldn't it?

I'm the Thai with the farang face, so I'm one of the few here actually qualified to comment.

In any case, I don't know what you mean by "behave like a Thai". Can you explain? Then I will tell you from experience if I can behave that way.

[noisyboy]

Becoming a Thai citizen requires learning Thai, which is an insurmountable barrier for most farang living in Thailand. With Chinese and Indians it is a different story.

Why?

I guess they're not as stupid as us

The tones are much easier to adapt for Indians due to many indian langues have similar tones. The vocabulary has some overlap with Sanskrit which is kind of a mother of many languages. E.g. megh (cloud), angoon (grapes), arun (sun) etc. etc. - same/similar in Sanskrit/Hindi.

Beyond that, it is down to individual's aptitude and more importantly, how much of effort one invests in learning.

Edited March 25, 2012 by noisyboy

[forumuser10]

There is no such thing as inverted racism, racism is racism. Just as simple as that

[theblether]

There is no such thing as inverted racism, racism is racism. Just as simple as that

Read the replies and you will see inverted racism in action. We now have one TV member claiming superiority over all others because he is the Thai with the farang face. I don't know that individuals background, but he is showing himself up.

Also to state racism is racism is too blanket a statement, there are subtleties to racism that can be quite devastating to those on the receiving end.

[theblether]

I'm the Thai with the farang face, so I'm one of the few here actually qualified to comment.

There is no doubt that you are far more qualified to comment than I am, as you have gone through the process of obtaining Thai nationality, however I would be interested to know a bit about your background.

Your country of origin, how long you have spent in Thailand etc.

If you are going to denigrate, it would be nice to know what makes you qualified to denigrate.

[Sing_Sling]

I'm the Thai with the farang face, so I'm one of the few here actually qualified to comment.

There is no doubt that you are far more qualified to comment than I am, as you have gone through the process of obtaining Thai nationality, however I would be interested to know a bit about your background.

Your country of origin, how long you have spent in Thailand etc.

If you are going to denigrate, it would be nice to know what makes you qualified to denigrate.

I must admit to reading newlymintedthai's post with a bit of a chuckle . . . surely you can't take him seriously after that proclamation

[theblether]

I'm the Thai with the farang face, so I'm one of the few here actually qualified to comment.

There is no doubt that you are far more qualified to comment than I am, as you have gone through the process of obtaining Thai nationality, however I would be interested to know a bit about your background.

Your country of origin, how long you have spent in Thailand etc.

If you are going to denigrate, it would be nice to know what makes you qualified to denigrate.

I must admit to reading newlymintedthai's post with a bit of a chuckle . . . surely you can't take him seriously after that proclamation

No I don't......I just want to see his reaction

[NewlyMintedThai]

I'm the Thai with the farang face, so I'm one of the few here actually qualified to comment.

There is no doubt that you are far more qualified to comment than I am, as you have gone through the process of obtaining Thai nationality, however I would be interested to know a bit about your background.

Your country of origin, how long you have spent in Thailand etc.

If you are going to denigrate, it would be nice to know what makes you qualified to denigrate.

I did not intend to denigrate anyone and apologize if I came off that way.

My original citizenship was American. I am caucasian. I have been in Thailand around 25 years and am in my 40's.

[theblether]

I'm the Thai with the farang face, so I'm one of the few here actually qualified to comment.

There is no doubt that you are far more qualified to comment than I am, as you have gone through the process of obtaining Thai nationality, however I would be interested to know a bit about your background.

Your country of origin, how long you have spent in Thailand etc.

If you are going to denigrate, it would be nice to know what makes you qualified to denigrate.

I did not intend to denigrate anyone and apologize if I came off that way.

My original citizenship was American. I am caucasian. I have been in Thailand around 25 years and am in my 40's.

Great, we'll take it as read that is the case, I have said before and I will say again, I reckon you could be a wealth of knowledge for all of us if you would just sweeten your delivery a little bit.

There are very few people that have taken your path and many of us, even those of us that have no intention of following you, would have a genuine interest in your experience and experience's.

The only problem is your answers are sometimes so obtuse they come across as trollish.

Sorry, just saying

[Bagwan]

To be very clear...i see no particular advantage...at least in my case...of bothering to take the trouble to get either Thai citizenship or Thai residence (permanent residence status, I mean).

Other people may disagree...but there's nothing in Thai citizenship or permanent residence I see worthwhile.

I am originally from the U.S. but I've worked all over the world in at least half a dozen countries. I was never a citizen of any of them either.

Now I'm retired, and living with my Thai family. That;s where i intend to stay.

But if I had to leave, if I were forced out, I'd just leave.

My feeling is that I don't live in a place,I live in my mind.

That way, no matter where I happen to be, I'm always in my "home country"....my mind.

As they say "your mileage may vary"...but that's the way i feel about my "home". As long as I know where I am, I'm always "home".

Same same. Almost mirror image.

[jshorts]

A couple of factual points (from my perspective at least).

- In a place like Australia, Brits (I'll lump you all together) essentially have the same rights as Australian citizens if the migrated pre-1983. Voting rights and all. No wonder, according to DIAC, Brits are one of the nationalities least likely to naturalise as Australian citizens.

- As for naturalising at Thai citizens. I believe there are a couple of reasons judging by past comments on this site.

Firstly people believe that it is simply impossible to apply, so don't bother. Then there are others who believe that it is 'all too hard', and simply don't try, and hence we get stupid assumptions like those from the previous poster who compares it to winning the lottery. Then there are those who confuse the 3 to 4 year wait time to get it as some sort of barrier. It isn't. It just requires patience.

Finally, there is are those who simply don't need it. Their retirement visa gives them everything in the way of security they could possibly want. Citizenship is an unnecessary step.

Having seen the rules, if you've got a reasonable track record of a job in Thailand and tax payments, then the door is open. Fair enough too in my book. I don't think citizenship should be given out as a matter of right for 'time served' in a country. You've got to want it, and you've got to have a track record above and beyond passive contribution.

Most of the naturalized Thai's I know are pretty average. They've made a life and career in Thailand, but no more than an average migrant would back in the west.

For me, it isn't a matter of "superiority complex", it is more a bewilderment that people think that it is harder than it actually is!

How much nicer your post would read if the word "stupid" had been omitted.

[samran]

^^

I respectfully withdraw Mr Speaker. How about 'hyperbolic, unrealistic statements which bear no resemblance to the actual situation'?.

[travelmann]

Well Ive always been against ALL nationalism, we all live on ONE planet, the main crux of most problems I see is religion, it dictates too much in many societies with no respect for those who dont believe, in my opinion find its quite frankly ridiculous that hordes of people trust to believe in a totally non senseical half truths downright lies and stories handed down thru generations of mis information which they slowly change when it can be proved to be nonsense.

I Cant for example go and live in some Muslim countries and discuss any of this for fear of being strung up.

Thailand also has its other BIG problem which again like religion cant be spoken of.

Ive never lived in any country for its culture religion or people, I have no interest in any of these they are trivial matters for me that spoil what I like most about the planet, fauna and flora and countryside.

So nationalism and becoming Thai is a load of old crap for me, let them fight over their silly temples and who owns this or that inch of land, whe n theyre all dead and gone the world will be a better place.

Edited March 25, 2012 by travelmann

[samran]

I'm the Thai with the farang face, so I'm one of the few here actually qualified to comment.

There is no doubt that you are far more qualified to comment than I am, as you have gone through the process of obtaining Thai nationality, however I would be interested to know a bit about your background.

Your country of origin, how long you have spent in Thailand etc.

If you are going to denigrate, it would be nice to know what makes you qualified to denigrate.

I must admit to reading newlymintedthai's post with a bit of a chuckle . . . surely you can't take him seriously after that proclamation

No I don't......I just want to see his reaction

At the risk of being tarred and feathered (or is that tarred and blethered?), I'm going to go into bat for NMT on this one. He is one of the few people qualified to comment - that is a statement of fact. I don't know how that can be looked upon as trying to degenerate?

Anyway, 'anterian' said something along the lines of "that you'd never ever be considered 'Thai' even if you had a Thai passport". He must assume that if you get a Thai PP, you are going to want to 'go native', And even then, you are going to have problems being accepted.

But, that is a false assumption surely?

I mean, what is he expecting, that once you get a Thai PP you have to get catch the green buses everywhere with a nasal decongestant things hanging out of your nose, eat bla rah each night after watching a lakorn, before heading out to shag your mia noi. And even if doing all that, you are still 'not accepted'?

I don't think there is an expectation that you are going to act a certain way, nor is an expectation that you are going to be any different. People generally accept you for what you are, depending on what you do, Thai passport or not. No need to be Thai-er than Thai as part of the deal.

One British lady I know who naturalised, runs a acupuncture clinic out of her house in her local neighborhood in Huay Khwang. She works on a 'pay as much as you think I'm worth - but no more than you can afford basis' and she seems to be very well connected in her neck of the woods, as the locals appreciate their ability to use her services.

At the other end of the scale, I know of a Swiss bloke natualised as Thai, runs a huge IT based business and works with all sorts of suppliers. He does pretty well for himself, running one of the larger firms of its type in the region.

In both of these cases (and a few more that I can think of) it isn't the passport you hold which gets you accepted socially, it is what you do.

I can think of many cases where a middle class Thai person is going to struggle sitting down shooting breeze with the 'win motorcye' boys at the end of the soi.

A Thai passport has never been an 'access all area's pass', nor should it be viewed that way. What it does allow you to do is play off as level as playing field you are going to get in Thailand.

Where it counts - under the law, you are accepted 100% (well 99% as there is technically a 5 year wait to vote). When my wife was being interviewed by the MOI as part of her application (at KFC Victory Monument no less), we were asked why we wanted Thai nationality for my wife.

There would be some here who probably think the 'right answer' consisted of "to be at one with the Thai people and cause I have such a great love of all things Thai".

The correct answer, as far as I've been told by the MOI people and others was what we said: "we'd like a Thai passport for my wife as her husband (yours truly) and kids all have one, we are going to be here for a while so we'd like to drop the visa stuff, and we'd like her to own land and a share in my business on an equal basis'. A pretty reasonable expectation on both sides if you ask me.

Edited March 25, 2012 by samran

[anterian]

Due to an inability to connect to TV most of yesterday I have been out of the loop for a bit, so I can only now explain to newlyminted Thais what I mean. Yes, in your immediate circle of friends you may be accepted as Thais, although if you ever had a bad argument with one of them your would soon find the word farang plus expletives featuring. What I really meant though was outside this circle, To board a bus or train and not have people look at you, to sit in a restaurant and not hear the word farang, to pay Thai prices without producing documents, to be not automatically assumed to be rich and stupid, basically to just blend in, you cannot do it.

[samran]

Due to an inability to connect to TV most of yesterday I have been out of the loop for a bit, so I can only now explain to newlyminted Thais what I mean. Yes, in your immediate circle of friends you may be accepted as Thais, although if you ever had a bad argument with one of them your would soon find the word farang plus expletives featuring. What I really meant though was outside this circle, To board a bus or train and not have people look at you, to sit in a restaurant and not hear the word farang, to pay Thai prices without producing documents, to be not automatically assumed to be rich and stupid, basically to just blend in, you cannot do it.

yeah, but so what?

Most people know they are going to stick out like a saw thumb. Most people know that from time to time you are going to come across the odd xenophobe or two. It is part and parcel of the migrant experience - in whatever country you go to. It is a bit rich to try and paint it as a purely Thai experience.

I sure do stick out. I'm 6 foot 1, look Spanish at best and usually have my blond wife and blond haired blue eyed daughters in tow. I open my mouth to speak, and I'm treated pretty 'normally' as far as I can figure out (if I wasn't already).

[anterian]

Due to an inability to connect to TV most of yesterday I have been out of the loop for a bit, so I can only now explain to newlyminted Thais what I mean. Yes, in your immediate circle of friends you may be accepted as Thais, although if you ever had a bad argument with one of them your would soon find the word farang plus expletives featuring. What I really meant though was outside this circle, To board a bus or train and not have people look at you, to sit in a restaurant and not hear the word farang, to pay Thai prices without producing documents, to be not automatically assumed to be rich and stupid, basically to just blend in, you cannot do it.

yeah, but so what?

Most people know they are going to stick out like a saw thumb. Most people know that from time to time you are going to come across the odd xenophobe or two. It is part and parcel of the migrant experience - in whatever country you go to. It is a bit rich to try and paint it as a purely Thai experience.

I sure do stick out. I'm 6 foot 1, look Spanish at best and usually have my blond wife and blond haired blue eyed daughters in tow. I open my mouth to speak, and I'm treated pretty 'normally' as far as I can figure out (if I wasn't already).

Exactly my point, You stick out, and always will, so you will never be accepted as truly Thai.

[samran]

Due to an inability to connect to TV most of yesterday I have been out of the loop for a bit, so I can only now explain to newlyminted Thais what I mean. Yes, in your immediate circle of friends you may be accepted as Thais, although if you ever had a bad argument with one of them your would soon find the word farang plus expletives featuring. What I really meant though was outside this circle, To board a bus or train and not have people look at you, to sit in a restaurant and not hear the word farang, to pay Thai prices without producing documents, to be not automatically assumed to be rich and stupid, basically to just blend in, you cannot do it.

yeah, but so what?

Most people know they are going to stick out like a saw thumb. Most people know that from time to time you are going to come across the odd xenophobe or two. It is part and parcel of the migrant experience - in whatever country you go to. It is a bit rich to try and paint it as a purely Thai experience.

I sure do stick out. I'm 6 foot 1, look Spanish at best and usually have my blond wife and blond haired blue eyed daughters in tow. I open my mouth to speak, and I'm treated pretty 'normally' as far as I can figure out (if I wasn't already).

Exactly my point, You stick out, and always will, so you will never be accepted as truly Thai.

ah, but what is 'truly Thai'?

Give me that definition and then we can have a discussion. Otherwise, you are trying to kick up dust where very little exists from my experience.

Edited March 26, 2012 by samran

[Sing_Sling]

Due to an inability to connect to TV most of yesterday I have been out of the loop for a bit, so I can only now explain to newlyminted Thais what I mean. Yes, in your immediate circle of friends you may be accepted as Thais, although if you ever had a bad argument with one of them your would soon find the word farang plus expletives featuring. What I really meant though was outside this circle, To board a bus or train and not have people look at you, to sit in a restaurant and not hear the word farang, to pay Thai prices without producing documents, to be not automatically assumed to be rich and stupid, basically to just blend in, you cannot do it.

yeah, but so what?

Most people know they are going to stick out like a saw thumb. Most people know that from time to time you are going to come across the odd xenophobe or two. It is part and parcel of the migrant experience - in whatever country you go to.

Sorry, I know many migrants in Australia and the US for whom this is not "part and parcel of the migrant experience"

ah, but what is 'truly Thai'?

Give me that definition and then we can have a discussion. Otherwise, you are trying to kick up dust where very little exists from my experience.

No, no, no Samran . . . now you're being obtuse. Anterian made a good point by picking up on your post, it is disingenuous of you to swerve the point

[anterian]

Due to an inability to connect to TV most of yesterday I have been out of the loop for a bit, so I can only now explain to newlyminted Thais what I mean. Yes, in your immediate circle of friends you may be accepted as Thais, although if you ever had a bad argument with one of them your would soon find the word farang plus expletives featuring. What I really meant though was outside this circle, To board a bus or train and not have people look at you, to sit in a restaurant and not hear the word farang, to pay Thai prices without producing documents, to be not automatically assumed to be rich and stupid, basically to just blend in, you cannot do it.

yeah, but so what?

Most people know they are going to stick out like a saw thumb. Most people know that from time to time you are going to come across the odd xenophobe or two. It is part and parcel of the migrant experience - in whatever country you go to. It is a bit rich to try and paint it as a purely Thai experience.

I sure do stick out. I'm 6 foot 1, look Spanish at best and usually have my blond wife and blond haired blue eyed daughters in tow. I open my mouth to speak, and I'm treated pretty 'normally' as far as I can figure out (if I wasn't already).

Exactly my point, You stick out, and always will, so you will never be accepted as truly Thai.

ah, but what is 'truly Thai'?

Give me that definition and then we can have a discussion. Otherwise, you are trying to kick up dust where very little exists from my experience.

You pick on two words to attack my comment, I will do the same:) You said in "My experience", means that you accept that Thainess is a subjective term, I am reminded of a national debate last year in the UK of what it meant to be British. Many people contributed but there was no overwhelming consensus. You may feel that you fit all the criteria of being truly Thai, I simply say that visually you cannot.

A farang Buddhist monk with shaved head, orange robe and chanting Sanskrit mantras, is still a farang.

[StreetCowboy]

Due to an inability to connect to TV most of yesterday I have been out of the loop for a bit, so I can only now explain to newlyminted Thais what I mean. Yes, in your immediate circle of friends you may be accepted as Thais, although if you ever had a bad argument with one of them your would soon find the word farang plus expletives featuring. What I really meant though was outside this circle, To board a bus or train and not have people look at you, to sit in a restaurant and not hear the word farang, to pay Thai prices without producing documents, to be not automatically assumed to be rich and stupid, basically to just blend in, you cannot do it.

yeah, but so what?

Most people know they are going to stick out like a saw thumb. Most people know that from time to time you are going to come across the odd xenophobe or two. It is part and parcel of the migrant experience - in whatever country you go to.

Sorry, I know many migrants in Australia and the US for whom this is not "part and parcel of the migrant experience"

...

I don't know any Australiand or Americans who are not immigrants, so its scarcely surprising that newer immigrants find it easier to fit in.

I don't know any immigrants who have gone bush in either country and been accepted by the natives.

Generally speaking, I believe the movement is generally the other way - indigenous people moving into the immigrant society, and fitting in, or not. I don't think Australia, USA are good comparators to Thailand.

SC

[samran]

You pick on two words to attack my comment, I will do the same:) You said in "My experience", means that you accept that Thainess is a subjective term, I am reminded of a national debate last year in the UK of what it meant to be British. Many people contributed but there was no overwhelming consensus. You may feel that you fit all the criteria of being truly Thai, I simply say that visually you cannot.

A farang Buddhist monk with shaved head, orange robe and chanting Sanskrit mantras, is still a farang.

I think we agree to a point, but the importance of the 'farang' tag I often think is over estimated. Lets face it, there are plenty of ways to categorise someone (especially if they are harbouring a prejudice of some sort), and if it isn't farang, it will be who your family is, how much money you have where you are from ('oh they are upcountry types/bangkokians') which will be used to create an 'us versus them' issue.

Of course it is subjective. Which is my point. I'd define myself a bit more ingrained into Thailand than some of my anglophiled or urbanised Thai friends, but if someone was to accuse them of being less Thai than others I'm pretty sure they'd wring your neck.

But to be clear, I don't feel like some sort of outcast. I don't get treated differently, despite my looks. Workwise, I sure as heck don't get left out of anything, my work is taken just as seriously (eg. presenting work to senior government officials, CEO's of major listed firms). When it comes to it, I'm the one pulled over by the Thai clients or co-workers to act as the intermediary to the foreigner in the group to communicate the inevitable 'can you tell them that won't work in Thailand' talk.

Rarely, if ever, I need to pull out Thai documentation when out and about, and where I do (being stopped as I head towards the Thai passport line at the airport is the one I can think of) I get profuse apologies.

Now, I may be the stupidist person on the face of the earth with everyone sniggering behind my back when I leave the room, but I doubt it.

Perhaps the concept of this it is just a bit hard to communicate especially when I do visually stick out like a sore thumb, but there is certainly a 'vibe' which one can emit, where for the most part I don't get treated, or considered differently to anyone else. Perhaps it is the fact that when I open my mouth and speak Thai pretty much like a Bangkok-ian does the trick. This goes for a few others I know in my position.

Outsiders are easily spotted, even if it is my Thai born and raised mother who's lived 40 years in Australia. She's ultimately the one treated like more of a tourist than me, but I live in BKK and she doesn't.

More often than not I get surprised at how 'ordinary' I and my situation is in the eye's of other (Thai's). Once, when down at the passport office getting a passport for my daughter (centre below), I commented to the officer that it must be unusual to get a Thai passport holder looking like her, to which I got the response "oh no, we get someone like your daughter once a week or so".

I know I tick some boxes, others, not so much. But to my mind, that goes for everyone.

Edited March 26, 2012 by samran

[samran]

Due to an inability to connect to TV most of yesterday I have been out of the loop for a bit, so I can only now explain to newlyminted Thais what I mean. Yes, in your immediate circle of friends you may be accepted as Thais, although if you ever had a bad argument with one of them your would soon find the word farang plus expletives featuring. What I really meant though was outside this circle, To board a bus or train and not have people look at you, to sit in a restaurant and not hear the word farang, to pay Thai prices without producing documents, to be not automatically assumed to be rich and stupid, basically to just blend in, you cannot do it.

yeah, but so what?

Most people know they are going to stick out like a saw thumb. Most people know that from time to time you are going to come across the odd xenophobe or two. It is part and parcel of the migrant experience - in whatever country you go to.

Sorry, I know many migrants in Australia and the US for whom this is not "part and parcel of the migrant experience"

Come on, that is a bit disingenuous isn't it?

Nor, did I agree it should be an accepted part of the experience, but it is part of the experience for many, even if only rarely.

While I agree countries like Australia and the US do migration very well (heck, half my family are migrants) I think it is deny every now and then there isn't the offputting look or comment from others if you aren't a Winne Blue smoking, ute driving, chicko role eating sterotype (at the very least).

Every now and then in Australia, not often, but enough to be amusing, I find myself in the following conversation:

Other person: So where are you from?

Me: Melbourne

OP: No, so where are you really from?

Me: I grew up in the SE Suburbs of Melbourne and was born in Melbourne

OP: No, where are you from?

...and on it goes.

Edited March 26, 2012 by samran

[geriatrickid]

You make some very good points, but I note part of your comment;

A Thai passport has never been an 'access all area's pass', nor should it be viewed that way. What it does allow you to do is play off as level as playing field you are going to get in Thailand.

Where it counts - under the law, you are accepted 100% (well 99% as there is technically a 5 year wait to vote).

I object, or at least wish to point out that there is no level playing field for a foreigner, whether as a visa holder or as a naturalised citizen. There is an inherent bias in the system against those that have a foreign name or physical characteristics. For most Thais, the playing field is tipped in favour of those that have money and connections/status. The foreigner starts out with that disadvantage that is then worsened because of his/her origin. In a serious dispute, the only asset that can help a foreigner is money. I don't doubt that some foreigners who gain citizenship can be happy and relatively successful, but with the rare exception, none will ever make it into the inner circle of Thai privilige. One has to have a Thai name and a Thai face for that. Really no different than some other countries. One need only look at the snide comments made about the former UK ambassador to Thailand. He wasn't considered British enough for some because of his ethnic origins and name. When push comes to shove, a farang is a farang even if a Thai citizen.

Edited March 26, 2012 by geriatrickid

[samran]

You make some very good points, but I note part of your comment;

A Thai passport has never been an 'access all area's pass', nor should it be viewed that way. What it does allow you to do is play off as level as playing field you are going to get in Thailand.

Where it counts - under the law, you are accepted 100% (well 99% as there is technically a 5 year wait to vote).

I object, or at least wish to point out that there is no level playing field for a foreigner, whether as a visa holder or as a naturalised citizen. There is an inherent bias in the system against those that have a foreign name or physical characteristics. For most Thais, the playing feild is tipped in favour of those that have money and connections/status. The foreigner starts out with that disadvantage that is then worsened because of his/her origin. In a serious dispute, the only asset that can help a foreigner is money. I don't doubt that some foreigners who gain citizenship can be happy and relatively successful, but with the rare exception, none will ever make it into the inner circle of Thai privilige. One has to have a Thai name and a Thai face for that. Really no different than some other countries. One need only look at the snide comments made about the former UK ambassador to Thailand. He wasn't considered British enough for some because of his ethnic origins and name. When push comes to shove, a farang is a farang even if a Thai citizen.

Thanks GK. But, this is why I phrased it : What it does allow you to do is play off as level as playing field you are going to get in Thailand.

The only think I note is that I disagree with you characterization of 'Thai privileged'. Having from time to time a bit of exposure to it, I don't think that there is some sort of small club with hangs out at the RBSC pulling the strings in Thailand.

What is interesting, is how much politics that goes on and how much they hate each other. Perhaps hate, is too strong a word, but there is always the need to 'beat' the other guy.

Sure there is a level of civility, and they play their personality politics hard - regardless of how you look or your name.

Edited March 26, 2012 by samran

[Ijustwannateach]

^Even some 'Thais' have this same effect- if they haven't been associated with the 'bestest bestest' families for gazillions of years they know there's no way in. The political struggles of the past few years, to the extent that they haven't been the genuine struggles of true-believing ideologues, have been largely one of the biggest recent expressions of this 'old money vs. new money' fight. Just as there are degrees of foreign-ness, there are degrees of Thai-ness. If anything, having a 'place' in this hierarchy makes us more at home than we would otherwise be! It's just that there isn't an obvious analogue to the roles we're used to (in the US, anyway, England and other European countries have a more articulated social scale).

[anterian]

Samran, I think location is important, where I live in a small village, everyone knows me and I generate no waves, my novelty value has expired, I am valued more for my skills and knowledge as a scientist and retired teacher, I'm just a slightly different member of the community. The same in the next village where I go to play badminton every day, I am liable to be dragged in to play football if they are a body short. The only time I step out of my slot is if there is a major problem with the police or civil authorities, then I'm pushed into the role of village ombudsman, even then I think it is partly my age of 76 and my education as much as being a farang.

All this changes when I visit Khaosan road, which I do once a month to buy English language books, there I am clearly treated as a farang amongst farangs.

[camerata]

This invariably leaves us home based Scots scratching our heads and wondering why would you want to live in a foreign country all your life and not take up citizenship.

I think if you look at colonial history you'll find that many Brits emigrated to English-speaking countries that needed immigrants and became citizens, whereas Brits who went to non-English-speaking countries with very different cultures fell in love with their adopted home and stayed there until retirement, after which they retired and (many) returned to the UK. I think the reason for this is people who have a choice (i.e. not economic migrants or political asylum seekers) need to buy into the values of a country before they will become a citizen.

For a Brit moving to the US, for example, that isn't very difficult. All the values and ideals of the country are enshrined in the Constitution and in most states the law is based on English law.

For me personally, living in Thailand is about immersing myself in an alien culture, so I always wanted to get PR and I never wanted to go back to the West. But I've never been interested in getting citizenship. What are the values of Thailand? Every constitution but one has been commissioned by the military, and the one that wasn't didn't reflect the wishes of everyone (for example, the part about gender equality which has now been modified). Apart from the Constitution, what is left? Well, there is the mantra of "nation, religion and monarchy," which are supposed to be the three pillars of Thailand's intrinsic national values. But they are vague and tend to be interpreted differently from government to government.

At the end of the day, I don't see any clear set of intrinsic values I can buy into here. So, much as I love the country I don't feel any real desire to become a citizen. However, I wouldn't criticize anyone who does. There may be different factors involved for someone who is married and has kids.