What about the lads that are sterile or ladies who are infertile? How does this fit into the equation???

If we had no interest in 'spreading our seed' we would have no sex drive at all, and our species would never have evolved in the first place.

If by this argument, women would only want to have sex during the release of their egg right, or is it only men who act on their animal instinct?

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Of course women are acting on their instinct as well. But if we had no internal desire to have sex, our species would never have evolved. Reproduction is clearly essential for that purpose, and you have to remember what we have spent hundreds of millions of years evolving from. This basic drive is as old as life on this planet, and it is absolutely fundamental to our (and other) species survival, which is why it is the very strong influence that we find it to be, why the human race is obsessed with it, and why we find ourselves talking about it on internet forums.

I'm afraid that you can't make a credible argument to say that the human sex drive is not biologically influenced. It's not like we all sit down one day and think to ourselves 'i've never thought about it before, but maybe i'll give that sex a try, it might be a laugh' is it?

I might add - whats the first thing said if a pregnancy occurs for a cheating person - oh christ we better get an abortion. This certainly doesnt sit so well with the spread the seed rationale.

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Do you know that if a lion take over a pack they will kill all the cubs from the previous alpha male?

well this is not the same as abortion...but is a animal behaviour that is not found in humans...

abortion is may chose because your are ashamed...

because you have already chose your mate...

(and following the seed spread though) is quite likely that you know that a male will not be willing to take care some other male offspring because he knows that the other male genes are the ones who are going to prevail in the population...

What about the lads that are sterile or ladies who are infertile? How does this fit into the equation??? 

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Whether completing your reproductive aims is viable or not, you still have the instinct to reproduce hardwired into your biology. Just because something else has gone wrong, it doesn't mean that you will lose this urge.

Also, you may make the conscious decision that having children is not right for you, but you will still feel like having sex, your subconscious mind will see to that.

Glauka, I understand all of your posts. I know about animal sexual behaviour & evolution just fine & that is the reason I don't think this argument has any basis

My question has always been, what does all that have to do with fidelity?

IMO, wanting to know if a child is genetically yours or expanding the gene pool to prevent disease or to make a stronger offspring is one thing but has nothing really to do with someone making the descision to cheat on their wife.

I might add - whats the first thing said if a pregnancy occurs for a cheating person - oh christ we better get an abortion. This certainly doesnt sit so well with the spread the seed rationale.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you know that if a lion take over a pack they will kill all the cubs from the previous alpha male?

well this is not the same as abortion...but is a animal behaviour that is not found in humans...

abortion is may chose because your are ashamed...

because you have already chose your mate...

(and following the seed spread though) is quite likely that you know that a male will not be willing to take care some other male offspring because he knows that the other male genes are the ones who are going to prevail in the population...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Also I've seen other animals take care of entirely different species

Glauka, I understand all of your posts. I know about animal sexual behaviour & evolution just fine & that is the reason I don't think this argument has any basis  

My question has always been,  what does all that have to do with fidelity?

IMO, wanting to know if a child is genetically yours or expanding the gene pool to prevent disease or to make a stronger offspring is one thing but has nothing really to do with someone making the descision to cheat on their wife.

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But it has everything to do with it, it constitutes the subconscious drive behind the behaviour. You may as well ask the question 'why do men want to have sex with women?'

I might add - whats the first thing said if a pregnancy occurs for a cheating person - oh christ we better get an abortion. This certainly doesnt sit so well with the spread the seed rationale.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you know that if a lion take over a pack they will kill all the cubs from the previous alpha male?

well this is not the same as abortion...but is a animal behaviour that is not found in humans...

abortion is may chose because your are ashamed...

because you have already chose your mate...

(and following the seed spread though) is quite likely that you know that a male will not be willing to take care some other male offspring because he knows that the other male genes are the ones who are going to prevail in the population...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Also I've seen other animals take care of entirely different species

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OF COURES BECAUSE THERE IS NOT A GENERAL RULE THAT REFERS TO ALL THE CASES...

IN THE SAME TERMS THE THEORIES OF GENETIC AND EVOLUTION RELATING TO ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR CANNOT FIT WITH ALL INDIVIDUALS AND POPULATION...

BUT ARE STRONG GROUNDS FOR UNDERSTANDING MANY OF OUR BEHAVIOURS...

sorry for the capital letters but I am nearly finishing working and this discussion is so interesting that I don´t want to miss abit of it...

Scaramanga, are you saying that men have no conscious choice or cannot prevent themselves from acting on a sexual attraction or urge by using their own sense of morality or because they know it would cause hurt to their partner to do so as they only act on animal sexual instinct?

Scaramanga, are you saying that men have no conscious choice or cannot prevent themselves from acting on a sexual attraction or urge by using their own sense of morality or because they know it would cause hurt to their partner to do so as they only act on animal sexual instinct?

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No. I have said a few times on this thread that we also have a conscious choice as to how we choose to proceed. But that animal sexual instinct is what propels them into situations that test their fidelity, and is the reason why some men will continue to look for sexual encounters with more than one woman. We are not monogamous by nature, and whilst some are happy to settle for monogamous conditions, many are forced into it due to cultural expectations.

The basic underlying reason for 'why do some men look for sexual encounters outside of their main relationship?' lies in the biological and anthropological arguments as put forth mainly by myself and Glauka on this thread, and not in the arguments of those who would have you believe that it has nothing to do with biology and that males are intrinsically more immature, selfish and prone to double standards, than females.

My own personal feelings are that if someone has made an explicit promise to their partner (rather than an assumed one on their partners part) to be involved in a monogamous relationship, then they are out of order in breaking that agreement. However, i do understand how the situation can arise in which this occurs, it is not necessarily because they are uncaring, nor does it mean they have any 'personal issues', or have any deep problems with their current relationship (although both of these things could be the case) as has been proposed on this thread. It is a natural drive that i can well believe must nag away at some individuals until they act on it.

The combination of a drive like this, that is nagging away, and the presence of abundant opportunity to indulge (as is found for some males in Thailand, for example), is understandably too strong for some to resist.

Edited December 23, 200520 yr by Scaramanga

1) If a man has fantasies of other women, is that acceptable(not cheating?)?

2) If a man fantasizes about other women and wxxk themselves, is that acceptable(not cheating?)?

If those are acceptable, what big difference then does it make apart from passing on STDs IF the person did not pay any feelings and treats his orginal partner as nice as before? What is the real big deal about having had sex with another person?

3) Do men have a stronger sexual urge than women?It seems to me that the urge in men is much stronger to be controlled than in women. When men are aroused the brain seems not capable of functioning properly whilst my observation on women is that their brains are less affected.

4) What is the percentage of men cheating in the UK & USA? Any rough ideas?

In HK, a friend of mine thinks is slightly over 50% and some said 90%!!!

Scaramanga, are you saying that men have no conscious choice or cannot prevent themselves from acting on a sexual attraction or urge by using their own sense of morality or because they know it would cause hurt to their partner to do so as they only act on animal sexual instinct?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. I have said a few times on this thread that we also have a conscious choice as to how we choose to proceed. But that animal sexual instinct is what propels them into situations that test their fidelity, and is the reason why some men will continue to look for sexual encounters with more than one woman. We are not monogamous by nature, and whilst some are happy to settle for monogamous conditions, many are forced into it due to cultural expectations.

The basic underlying reason for 'why do some men look for sexual encounters outside of their main relationship?' lies in the biological and anthropological arguments as put forth mainly by myself and Glauka on this thread, and not in the arguments of those who would have you believe that it has nothing to do with biology and that males are intrinsically more immature, selfish and prone to double standards, than females.

My own personal feelings are that if someone has made an explicit promise to their partner (rather than an assumed one on their partners part) to be involved in a monogamous relationship, then they are out of order in breaking that agreement. However, i do understand how the situation can arise in which this occurs, it is not necessarily because they are uncaring, nor does it mean they have any 'personal issues', or have any deep problems with their current relationship (although both of these things could be the case) as has been proposed on this thread. It is a natural drive that i can well believe must nag away at some individuals until they act on it.

The combination of a drive like this, that is nagging away, and the presence of abundant opportunity to indulge (as is found for some males in Thailand, for example), is understandably too strong for some to resist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said.

1) If a man has fantasies of other women, is that acceptable(not cheating?)?

2) If a man fantasizes about other women and wxxk themselves, is that acceptable(not cheating?)?

If those are acceptable, what big difference then does it make apart from passing on STDs IF the person did not pay any feelings and treats his orginal partner as nice as before? What is the real big deal about having had sex with another person?

3) Do men have a stronger sexual urge than women?It seems to me that the   urge in men is much stronger to be controlled than in women.  When men are aroused the brain seems not capable of functioning properly whilst my observation on women is that their brains are less affected.

4) What is the percentage of men cheating in the UK & USA?  Any rough ideas?

   In HK, a friend of mine thinks is slightly over 50% and some said 90%!!!

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Hello meemiathai, (he he he looking forward to your answer )

1)If you have fantazies about other women do you tell your woman, do you feel like cheating?

2)If you have fantazies with other woman and w**k yourself do you tell your lady?do you feel like you are cheating her?

If you feel that you are not cheating her. Will you feel guilty if you actually sleep with another woman? If so Why?

3) Do we woman fall in love more deeply than men that´s why our brain are less affected by the neccesity of sex?

Edited December 23, 200520 yr by Glauka

Glauka, In response, Allow me to quote a certain Isaac Stern quote, I think you are familiar with:

Music is like making love: either all or nothing.

Now, What is Love?

self respect and respect for your partner, caring for each other, being honest to one another, have lots of fun...

love making, kissing and holding hands of course

Okay... you've sold me... :D

1) If a man has fantasies of other women, is that acceptable(not cheating?)?

2) If a man fantasizes about other women and wxxk themselves, is that acceptable(not cheating?)?

If those are acceptable, what big difference then does it make apart from passing on STDs IF the person did not pay any feelings and treats his orginal partner as nice as before? What is the real big deal about having had sex with another person?

3) Do men have a stronger sexual urge than women?It seems to me that the   urge in men is much stronger to be controlled than in women.  When men are aroused the brain seems not capable of functioning properly whilst my observation on women is that their brains are less affected.

4) What is the percentage of men cheating in the UK & USA?  Any rough ideas?

   In HK, a friend of mine thinks is slightly over 50% and some said 90%!!!

Hello meemiathai, (he he he looking forward to your answer )

1)If you have fantazies about other women do you tell your woman, do you feel like cheating?

2)If you have fantazies with other woman and w**k yourself do you tell your lady?do you feel like you are cheating her?

If you feel that you are not cheating her. Will you feel guilty if you actually sleep with another woman? If so Why?

3) Do we woman fall in love more deeply than men that´s why our brain are less affected by the neccesity of sex?

1)do you tell your woman? Of course not! She wouldn't have liked it, would she?

do your feel like cheating? That's exactly what I've asked. It depends on what the woman thinks.

2)do you tell your woman? Again of course not! It's going to be hurtful, isn't it? do your feel like cheating?Same answer.

If you feel that you are not cheating her. Will you feel guilty if you actually sleep with another woman? If so Why?If she accepts me sleeping with another one, of course I won't feel guilty. But the present situation is sleeping with someone else is unacceptable meaning it is going to hurt her like hel_l. So, sure there's going to be a lot of guilt in me if I do so. Anything that causes unhappiness for her is going to make me feel guilty.

3)I really don't have the answers. It does seem that women generally look more in love in relationships than men do. But for my case, it's difficult to say who is more in love. For example, I can accept her having other men as long as it is solely for enjoyment(I know she wouldn't and I can't actually let her know fearing that is going to hurt her) and not for other purposes whilst she can't. But I have no doubt she would die for me if necessary. Who is more in love?

It is only my observation that women are seldom seen being out of control due to sex drive. But men, even if it's a normally sensible person, can have his brain totally mal-functioning if something sexy gets within his vision. I mean, look at James Bond! He doesn't even use a bloody condom!

But hey! Where are all the answers for MY questions?????

I just twisted the your post so that you could anwers your own questions...

1) If a man has fantasies of other women, is that acceptable(not cheating?)?

IMHO No, is not like cheating...

I think everybody needs their own personal fantasy and their little secret.

2) If a man fantasizes about other women and wxxk themselves, is that acceptable(not cheating?)?

NO is not like cheating...because you are not kissing and huging or being tender.

If those are acceptable, what big difference then does it make apart from passing on STDs IF the person did not pay any feelings and treats his orginal partner as nice as before? What is the real big deal about having had sex with another person?

Sometimes I don´t have a rational answer...if the above is not cheating sleeping with someone else´s where not feelings are involved should be the same...

However I just don´t feel the same Why? I don´t know. Not everything has an explanation...as I have said before when I find out that my partner has been unfaithful something die within me...

Actually I have never asked to any of my partners about what kind of woman he fantazise with...I am not interested that´s the truth...

Do men have a stronger sexual urge than women?

no I don´t think so...I think depends on the people, but IMO society has a better understanding for male sexual apetite than for female...

many men and women still understand better a man being unfaithful than a woman being unfaithful...IMO it has a religious/historical explanation of why is so.

Hey seems you are managing those quote buttons quite well.

If those are acceptable, what big difference then does it make apart from passing on STDs IF the person did not pay any feelings and treats his orginal partner as nice as before? What is the real big deal about having had sex with another person?

Sometimes I don´t have a rational answer...if the above is not cheating sleeping with someone else´s where not feelings are involved should be the same...

However I just don´t feel the same Why? I don´t know. Not everything has an explanation...as I have said before when I find out that my partner has been unfaithful something die within me...

Actually I have never asked to any of my partners about what kind of woman he fantazise with...I am not interested that´s the truth...

Very true. Not everything has an explanation. At least not yet.

Anyway, Merry X'mas.

Do men have a stronger sexual urge than women?

no I don´t think so...I think depends on the people, but IMO society has a better understanding for male sexual apetite than for female...

many men and women still understand better a man being unfaithful than a woman being unfaithful...IMO it has a religious/historical explanation of why is so.

I disagree on this with you.

so what is your opinion then?

Merry Christmas to you!!!!

Edited December 24, 200520 yr by Glauka

Hey seems you are managing those quote buttons quite well

Yes, thank you again...now I am very good...

1) If a man has fantasies of other women, is that acceptable(not cheating?)?

Of course not. Everyone -- male AND female -- does this. Most men would be shocked to know how often their wives/girlfriends do this.

2) If a man fantasizes about other women and wxxk themselves, is that acceptable(not cheating?)?

It's not cheating. If it's a rare occurrence or limited to women not known in real life (like pics in a porn mag), doesn't mean much. If its focused on a real life woman and becoming a habit, though, while not yet cheating, does raise some concerns about what may be going on....

True whether the behavior by a man or a woman (and yes, men, women do this too).

?)?

If those are acceptable, what big difference then does it make apart from passing on STDs IF the person did not pay any feelings and treats his orginal partner as nice as before? What is the real big deal about having had sex with another person?

The big deal is that if there is a commitment between the two people that they are going to be monogamous, then it is a deceit and a betrayal.

Of course, if there is a clear understanding that the relationship is not sexually exclusive, then it's not a big deal. So maybe your real question is, why should deep relationships/marriages be monogamous?

They don't have to be, of course. But most lasting deep relationships occur in the setting of monogamy in our culture. And even in cultures that practice polygamy or polyandry, the otrher partners are limited to specific knpown people who are part of the family structure. Most people seem to find that sexual exclusivity enhances trust and intimacy and solidifies the commitment. There is a feeling of hurt if the partner strays as it implies that they aren't sufficiently satisfied by the rleationship...and there is always the nagging possibility that one of the other sexual liasions will eventually led to something serious.

Actually what I think has come out pretty clearly on this thread is that both men and women generally feel a need, if the relationship is very serious, to have their partner be faithful to them. It's just that some men seem to feel this should be possible without reciprocation. Of course there are exceptions, some people seem able to be satisfatified with two-way nonexclusivity, but its rare. And it still demands HONESTY, which as I think woman after women on this thread has stressed the importance of. Without trust, there cannot be a deep relationship.

3) Do men have a stronger sexual urge than women?It seems to me that the urge in men is much stronger to be controlled than in women. When men are aroused the brain seems not capable of functioning properly whilst my observation on women is that their brains are less affected.

Actually most sex researchers have concluded the female sex drive -- as a drive -- is as strong or stronger than men's (although there are some big differences in how the drive changes with age...men having a strong surge in adolescence that tapers down considerably as they age while women are much more constant).

Women in almost all cultures control their sexual urges more than men do but I question whether that's becuase it is inately easier for them to do so...I think it's because women HAVE to. From the earliest possible age women learn that it is unsafe, even potentially deadly, to act impulsively on sex urges. A women who just goes out and picks uo a guy at bar & takes him home faces a very real chance of ending up victim of a pyscho murder. Sexually motivated serial killers are almost never female....so this is a threat that hetrosexual men don't face. No matter how strong the sex urge is, the self-preservation urge trumps it. Ditto rape. And then there are all the problems associated with pregnancy...not to mention societal repurcussions.

For a host of reasons, it has never been safe for women to give free reign to their sexual impulses, and they learn this from an early age.

Men are just as capable of controlling themsleves, and they do so readily enough when there is a compelling necessity (for example, vast majority never commit rape...and most would refrain from putting the moves on their boss' wife...).

4) What is the percentage of men cheating in the UK & USA? Any rough ideas?

In HK, a friend of mine thinks is slightly over 50% and some said 90%!!!

There have been surveys on this, I don't recall offhand but I think if you're counting any infiedelity ever, it was somewhere in the range of 50%, certainly was not anything ner 90. And cheating by married women was somewhere around 30%. Of course survey data is only as good as the respondents were honest.

They are talking about animal's wild sex now on the National Geograhic Channel.

I have been reading this thread since it started, and find it very interesting

What I am wondering is do women  really have such a low opinion of men, that we have absolutely no control over our actions????

I may be wrong but why should Thailand be different than any other place in the world, if a relationship is solid it should last, right?

I think if you feel that moving to certain area or place will put your relationship in jeopardy. Then your relationship would never last anywhere

I know a lot off men that fall into the category that the op mentions, but I know as many women that do also. But I think that men will brag about there conquests and women will keep it to themselves

I’m not asking who is better or worse.

I’m asking are men less trustworthy than women?

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A lot of people look at the statistics.

If as many women engage in extramarital sex as men, everybody gets sex for free, and there would be no prostitutes. There wouldn’t be any prostitutes if nobody buys their service. Do the math.

Seville

I agree with most of what you have written and you have made some very good points, I don’t totally agree with your view on monogamy, agreed that men see sex as sex a lot of the time, but I would say that women use their sexuality as a tool or sometimes a reward, there for giving it a higher value in a woman’s eye’s.

You also say that our society dictates our behavior which I also agree with, another way to look at that is that society sets our moral standards and boundries I don’t think that a man has less morals than a woman.

Example: - a bar I used to work at had a waitress that told me she made a lot more tips if she wore certain clothes and fixed her hair a certain way.

Morally who is worse the waitress for selling her appearance or the man that is trying to look down her top?

At the end of the day the world is made up of individuals who fall into different catagorys, everybody knows in their heart what is right or wrong, if anybody, man or woman can justify cheating they are really only kidding themselves.

As for the original question, I haven’t got a clue; I guess you play with the cards you are dealt.

Makes very interesting reading though

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It takes two to tango. Whether or not prostitution or adultery or capitalizing on one’s appearance is wrong is a matter of opinion, but I believe that one thing everybody here believes in is human rights.

Here’s a bigger problem about prostitution:

IT IS NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE TO TELL FORCED PROSTITUTION FROM VOLUNTARY PROSTITUTION.

There are two types of prostitutes: forced and voluntary.

There is only one type of clients: voluntary.

If you know that the pimp will burn your arm with a cigarette or hurt you in other ways or even kill you if you say anything, chances are, you will comply. In this situation the women have no choice (unless you consider to die or not to die a choice), but the men always have a choice whether or not to purchase sex.

It makes sense that to put an end to this gruesome abuse of human rights, men have got to stop purchasing prostitutes.

Nowadays not only Thai and Southeast Asian women are trafficked and sold into forced prostitution but also Eastern European women.

I am always amazed how some foreign men in Thailand present themselves as victims of temptation of “all those women throwing themselves at the men” when the men obviously have a choice, while the real victims’ voice is never heard.

Disgusting, sickening, to say the least.

Please don't start talking about prostitution or this thread will be closed.

so what is your opinion then?

Merry Christmas to you!!!!

Sorry Glauka, have run out of words.

Will write when something comes to mind.

Why would the thread be closed if people were to start talking about prostitution?

Rainx has some interesting points, but It's referred to the oldest profession for a reason. Stopping forced prostitution and abuse can best be done if it's made legal.

Can you tell I live near San Francisco. But I believe this for not only America, but other countries as well.

Didn't Thailand consider this at one point not to long ago?

Why? because usually it degenerates into the usual BG thread, thats why. Rainx has a very valid point that some of the women "throwing themselves" at farang men are not doing so in an entirely voluntary way, others are.

But, the validity of prostitution and its legalization is not really the topic of this thread. One's ability to remain faithful (or not) is.

Please remain on topic, thanks.

Fidelity - ask yourself this would he cheat in the west? If no then I'm quite positive he will be no different in thailand.