First, Learn How The Other Side Thinks: Thai Society

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

First, learn how the other side thinks

Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- National reconciliation is an admirable goal but it would be a misplaced goal if Thai society has yet to learn how to co-exist and compete with those who think differently about politics in a peaceful, constructive and democratic manner.

The political rift continuing over the past six years or so may be a long and painful road for Thais who are allergic to open conflicts, but there are no shortcuts and society simply cannot afford not to learn how to co-exist and compete peacefully, politically speaking.

Learning more about those who disagree with you and how they think is high on the list of peaceful co-existence. Unfortunately, both sides of the political divide are more comfortable with and keen about denouncing and demonising their opponents.

Those who think that getting rid of the ousted and fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra would end Thailand's marathon political feud would do well to think again. It should become abundantly clear to them that even if Thaksin is no longer active, politically speaking, the millions who support him will not simply disappear.

Most of the Bangkok-based mainstream mass media's over-obsession with Thaksin strangely did not translate into curiosity to learn more about his red-shirt supporters, especially those from the rural poor. It is quite ironic and even perverted to think that foreign media like the International Herald Tribune seem to be spending more time and effort in trying to understand the rural poor who supported Thaksin than most of the mainstream Thai media.

As long as the Thai elite, the educated middle class and mainstream media do not regard the majority of Thais who are poor with respect and treat them more equally and try to understand their plight and aspirations, the less well-to-do reds who have become politically active over the past six years will almost certainly continue to push for some form of political restructuring and greater socio-political and economic equity.

The reds get very upset when Thaksin is scrutinised, unconstitutionally ousted and convicted while some public figures of great social and political influence cannot even be criticised or made accountable.

Many red shirts have long abandoned the mainstream media as they have lost trust in their claimed impartiality and have for years now tuned in to their own television and radio stations.

A taxi driver this writer rode with on Monday tuned in to red community radio FM92.25, which relayed news from Asia Update, one of the two red TV stations. The news presented was very different from that of the mainstream media. I heard Asia Update report in some detail about news that the mainstream media would rather pretend is not newsworthy.

Somsak Jiamteerasakul, a Thammasat University historian and leading advocate for reform of the monarchy, was heard speaking at a forum about the need to do more than just amend the controversial lese majeste law and to launch wide-ranging reforms of the royal institution.

The cabby from Nong Khai who has lived in Nonthaburi for 20 years then told me, "I won't allow Thailand be dragged back into becoming like Burma".

Understanding should be a two-way street, however, and I can't help but feel that the supporters of Thaksin are not really keen on understanding the insecurity and paranoia of their opponents. The reds are also still not open to acknowledging the flaws, mistakes and abuses of power committed by Thaksin. Liberal red shirts such as Red Sunday group leader Sombat Boon-ngam-anong should ensure that ordinary reds value criticism and scrutiny as not just a tool to fight their opponents but also as an indispensable part of a democratic system that should be applied equally to everyone, including their leaders.

-- The Nation 2012-03-21

[CalgaryII]

"First learn how the other side thinks" #1^

"National reconciliation is an admirable goal but it would be a misplaced goal if Thai society has yet to learn how to co-exist and compete with those who think differently about politics in a peaceful, constructive and democratic manner"

• It is not Thai society who constantly denigrate, besmirch, disparage and contemptuously look down their arrogant noses at a huge sector of the Thai population, suggesting they are too ignorant, ill-informed and being led around by the nose in an unthinking manner.
  
• It is not Thai society who usurped political power via coups in order to avoid competing electorally.
  
• To impugn all of Thai society with the actions of an unelectable elite is misinformation.
  

"Learning more about those who disagree with you and how they think is high on the list of peaceful co-existence"

• Not sure if those who consider themselves entitled to Govern by virtue of their status, are inclined to stoop to give equal political space to those who they constantly denigrate. Political equitableness and justness is not in their genes. Yet they are the ones on the political sidelines. This fact doesn't seem to penetrate however.
  

"Unfortunately, both sides of the political divide are more comfortable with and keen about denouncing and demonising their opponents"

• To accuse both sides of the MO of one, doesn't fly.
  
• The enmity of one side to the other is because of the denigrating arrogance they constantly face. Even to the point where ideas are floated to deprive those of a lesser status with their voting rights, as has been suggested by some. What kind of reaction would they expect from such paternalistic condescension.
  
• The main body of this article summarizes this perspective very well.
  

The reds are also still not open to acknowledging the flaws, mistakes and abuses of power committed by Thaksin. Liberal red shirts such as Red Sunday group leader Sombat Boon-ngam-anong should ensure that ordinary reds value criticism and scrutiny as not just a tool to fight their opponents but also as an indispensable part of a democratic system that should be applied equally to everyone, including their leaders.

• Referring to the majority electoral block as "the Reds", disrespectfully deprives them of political context. There seems to be a real aversion to acknowledging the existence of increasingly powerful electoral anti-coup and pro-democracy forces. To refuse to admit that a "democracy Movement" exists, is 'ostriching' to the extreme.
  
• Until the last vestiges of the coupist vengeful and vicious assault of those defending electoral prerogatives fade into history, it will be difficult to expect such tolerance as above quote describes.
  
• Accountability and responsibility for those who perpetrated the deaths at R'song when political solutions were readily available, would go a long way to achieving reconciliation............................ Don't hold your breath.
  
• Bottom line, fohget about coups and limiting the timeframe of an elected Government, respect elections and let them resolve politically ingrained prejudices.
  
• Not complicated
  

Edited March 21, 2012 by CalgaryII

[OzMick]

learn how the other side thinks

In your case, doesn't.

[Unkomoncents]

"As long as the Thai elite, the educated middle class and mainstream media do not regard the majority of Thais who are poor with respect and treat them more equally and try to understand their plight and aspirations.."

Respect is earned, not automatically received. That's a major sticking point here (as is the mere idea of "earning" anything except a possibly improved existence through karma). As far as I know, "their plight" is nothing more than returning a known criminal to politics, burning their own capital, some vague concept of democracy, and creating instability. The Reds are very well organized and they have some intelligent leadership, but they have no broadly appealing goals. Until they do, Thailand will only have political chaos (they need to have achievable political objectives, beyond merely doing what people did before; Thaksin, in many ways, resembles Hugo Chavez: give the poor money, and they shut up while you steer the country into continued poverty and insignificance; see Brazil for more realistic management goals).

[GentlemanJim]

"First learn how the other side thinks" #1^

"National reconciliation is an admirable goal but it would be a misplaced goal if Thai society has yet to learn how to co-exist and compete with those who think differently about politics in a peaceful, constructive and democratic manner"

• It is not Thai society who constantly denigrate, besmirch, disparage and contemptuously look down their arrogant noses at a huge sector of the Thai population, suggesting they are too ignorant, ill-informed and being led around by the nose in an unthinking manner.
  
• It is not Thai society who usurped political power via coups in order to avoid competing electorally.
  
• To impugn all of Thai society with the actions of an unelectable elite is misinformation.
  

"Learning more about those who disagree with you and how they think is high on the list of peaceful co-existence"

• Not sure if those who consider themselves entitled to Govern by virtue of their status, are inclined to stoop to give equal political space to those who they constantly denigrate. Political equitableness and justness is not in their genes. Yet they are the ones on the political sidelines. This fact doesn't seem to penetrate however.
  

"Unfortunately, both sides of the political divide are more comfortable with and keen about denouncing and demonising their opponents"

• To accuse both sides of the MO of one, doesn't fly.
  
• The enmity of one side to the other is because of the denigrating arrogance they constantly face. Even to the point where ideas are floated to deprive those of a lesser status with their voting rights, as has been suggested by some. What kind of reaction would they expect from such paternalistic condescension.
  
• The main body of this article summarizes this perspective very well.
  

The reds are also still not open to acknowledging the flaws, mistakes and abuses of power committed by Thaksin. Liberal red shirts such as Red Sunday group leader Sombat Boon-ngam-anong should ensure that ordinary reds value criticism and scrutiny as not just a tool to fight their opponents but also as an indispensable part of a democratic system that should be applied equally to everyone, including their leaders.

• Referring to the majority electoral block as "the Reds", disrespectfully deprives them of political context. There seems to be a real aversion to acknowledging the existence of increasingly powerful electoral anti-coup and pro-democracy forces. To refuse to admit that a "democracy Movement" exists, is 'ostriching' to the extreme.
  
• Until the last vestiges of the coupist vengeful and vicious assault of those defending electoral prerogatives fade into history, it will be difficult to expect such tolerance as above quote describes.
  
• Accountability and responsibility for those who perpetrated the deaths at R'song when political solutions were readily available, would go a long way to achieving reconciliation............................ Don't hold your breath.
  
• Bottom line, fohget about coups and limiting the timeframe of an elected Government, respect elections and let them resolve politically ingrained prejudices.
  
• Not complicated
  

Ah but it is very complicated!

The majority electoral block are 'the Reds'. That is self manufactured and self sustained with the opening of 'Red villages' throughout the North. There is absolutely nothing Democratic about the Red movement. Using money and fear to coerce people into giving you their vote is hardly part of a modern democratic process is it? It is impossible for you to voice your opinion in the North if your political alignments are anything other than Red.

What we are witnessing now is the start of the annexing of the North and it is my belief that when the timing is correct Thaksin will return in Dictatorial fashion. He plans to build himself a dynasty, that much is clear and whether he starts that as President of The Republic of North Thailand remains to be seen, but as in any of the Thai soaps, the plot is blazingly obvious. Thaksin has learnt well what drives people at a very base level. He surrounds himself with the wannabe wealthy, the sychophants and the obsequious knowing that they would sell their Grandmothers just to see their bank balance grow. Their is little justification for any intelligent man to consider that Thaksin did not commit crime when he robbed Thailand blind over his tax issues and his family made gargantuan profits over engineered land deals. The only people who claim there was no wrongdoing are those desperate for him to award them a slice of his ill-gotton gains.

If you think this is all democracy, carry on. This country is headed towards hell in a handbasket. It's politicians are corrupt scavengers who have zero interest in guiding the country to an improved standing in the international community. They conduct themselves on a daily basis as if they were in some kind of kindergarten and have absolutely no sense of duty towards the electorate that put them in such a privileged position. As the OP says, you need to learn how the other side thinks, you demonstrate that you are unable to consider how the Reds and their leader thinks. The statement I have just made is laughable in all honesty, as this country has an elected PM, yet she does not get a look in, as we continue to correctly discuss the Reds and their leader Thaksin. It is a joke.

Once you look through the smoke/haze/PR and marketing........not complicated.

Edited March 21, 2012 by GentlemanJim

[animatic]

I want more money, my balance sheet shows my worth on the planet.

I want to control how things are run, so I have power to go with my money.

I want to manipulate people in large groups because that shows my power.

I must make all the decisions because I can't stand being out of control.

I want them to make more face for me than ALL OF YOU , and I don't care who I use or abuse to do this.

You MUST respect me more because I CAN do this. If you don't show it, watch out.

Easy to think like the other side, if you chuck aside morals and compassion.

Edited March 21, 2012 by animatic

[exeter]

Easier said than done and even when you understand each others position what are you going to do about it, try and find a middle way? Ah but this is Thailand isn't it, does Thailand do that sort of thing? Big ask?

[anterian]

Same, same. State the obvious then demonstrate within the TV membership (in a microcosm) how impossible it would be to achieve this in the real world of Thailand.

[volk666]

It's a good idea to learn how the other side thinks, but Pravit saved his own thoughts for the last paragraph:

"..the insecurity and paranoia of their opponents.."

And this is what it boils down to, despite his noble intentions - Pravit and the rest of the enlightened should be given respect by their paranoid and insecure opposition.

I wonder if the opposition will follow his advice...

Speaking of insecurity - if Thaksin tramps over his legal challenges it would undermine their whole concept of the rule of law and faith and trust in justice in this country.

How should they feel about it? If the law they have known all their lives does not exist anymore they would have all the rights to feel insecure.

Of course as time goes by Thaksin would establish is own rule of law and his own concept of what is fair and what is not and that would make people feel more or less secure again, like they felt secure in Saddam's Iraq, for example - the system is not just but at least it's reliable.

There will be those who won't accept Thaksin's brand of "justice" but those will be sidelined, ostracized or reeducated. I guess it would resemble Thailand as we know it as, for example, USSR resembled tsarist Russia.

Edited March 21, 2012 by volk666

[slipperx]

Neither of the political parties have the benefit of the country at heart. They both operate to serve themselves in whatever way they can best muster. The current lot are sadly grossly negligent and openly serving not the people they represent but themselves. It is an unfair feeding frenzy with the meal served courtesy of the average Thai mainly because they are mostly so poorly educated they don't know what to think about it. You can bleat on about Thaksin having been unfairly disabused of power, you can bleat on about Thaksin being corrupt and abusing his position and you can ponder on the legality or otherwise of the Thai constitution. It is all a disguise for the absolute abuse and total lack of social conscience of all the with even a smidgen of power. Until someone tackles the corruption at least on he face of it, for it can likely never be obliterated, there will neve be any chance of even a mildly fair society here. Thais don care because they don't know and that is precisely the intention of those in power. I think the OP has a point and at least that point deserves fair examination rather tan the put down of he wholly biased first poster.

Edited March 21, 2012 by slipperx

[bigbamboo]

Neither of the political parties have the benefit of the country at heart. They both operate to serve themselves in whatever way they can best muster. The current lot are sadly grossly negligent and openly serving not the people they represent but themselves. It is an unfair feeding frenzy with the meal served courtesy of the average Thai mainly because they are mostly so poorly educated they don't know what to think about it. You can bleat on about Thaksin having been unfairly disabused of power, you can bleat on about Thaksin being corrupt and abusing his position and you can ponder on the legality or otherwise of the Thai constitution. It is all a disguise for the absolute abuse and total lack of social conscience of all the with even a smidgen of power. Until someone tackles the corruption at least on he face of it, for it can likely never be obliterated, there will neve be any chance of even a mildly fair society here. Thais don care because they don't know and that is precisely the intention of those in power. I think the OP has a point and at least that point deserves fair examination rather tan the put down of he wholly biased first poster.

You can probably count on one hand the number of politicians in Thailand who are in power for altruistic purposes. Whereas in the US you'd need two hands.

[Unkomoncents]

Neither of the political parties have the benefit of the country at heart. They both operate to serve themselves in whatever way they can best muster. The current lot are sadly grossly negligent and openly serving not the people they represent but themselves. It is an unfair feeding frenzy with the meal served courtesy of the average Thai mainly because they are mostly so poorly educated they don't know what to think about it. You can bleat on about Thaksin having been unfairly disabused of power, you can bleat on about Thaksin being corrupt and abusing his position and you can ponder on the legality or otherwise of the Thai constitution. It is all a disguise for the absolute abuse and total lack of social conscience of all the with even a smidgen of power. Until someone tackles the corruption at least on he face of it, for it can likely never be obliterated, there will neve be any chance of even a mildly fair society here. Thais don care because they don't know and that is precisely the intention of those in power. I think the OP has a point and at least that point deserves fair examination rather tan the put down of he wholly biased first poster.

You can probably count on one hand the number of politicians in Thailand who are in power for altruistic purposes. Whereas in the US you'd need two hands.

I agree with you because I hate American politicians (they're dam_n deserving of scorn) not because you're completely correct. American politicians earn nothing compared to their Asian counterparts. That's readily observable: how many homes does Obama have compared with Chalerm? See Singapore's political salaries...

Edited March 21, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[DP25]

You can probably count on one hand the number of politicians in Thailand who are in power for altruistic purposes. Whereas in the US you'd need two hands.

American politicians are pretty bad but I'm glad they're no where near as bad as Thailand. The corruption cases Americans get caught in would just be laughed in Thailand as they are so minor and involve such small of money. I remember that congressman from Louisiana caught with $100,000 in bribe money in freezer, a huge deal in America but that is so little here no one would have cared. Here the cases involved millions, hundreds of millions, or even billions of dollars and even then no one is ever punished for it. And the whole time they are stealing, they are lowering their own taxes all while bleating about how they are fighting for the poor.

[Buchholz]

I agree with you because I hate American politicians (they're dam_n deserving of scorn) not because you're completely correct. American politicians earn nothing compared to their Asian counterparts. That's readily observable: how many homes does Obama have compared with Chalerm?

He certainly doesn't have a Pink Bentley...

Chalerm's 25 million baht Pink Bentley, one of only two in the world. Paris Hilton has the other.

And on a cops salary! He must be quite the penny pincher.

His asset declaration following the July elections have Chalerm with 178 million baht in assets. While taking that with a grain of salt, if true, it's surprising that 25 of that was put into a single car.

I wonder if he's made an offer to Paris for the other in order to have sole possession of all of these awesome looking vehicles.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Buchholz

[redroo]

One has too bee verry bent

too own a ' pink bentley '

[animatic]

quote name='Unkomoncents' timestamp='1332360974' post='5154083'

I agree with you because I hate American politicians (they're dam_n deserving of scorn) not because you're completely correct. American politicians earn nothing compared to their Asian counterparts. That's readily observable: how many homes does Obama have compared with Chalerm?

He certainly doesn't have a Pink Bentley...

Chalerm's 25 million baht Pink Bentley, one of only two in the world. Paris Hilton has the other.

And on a cops salary! He must be quite the penny pincher.

His asset declaration following the July elections have Chalerm with 178 million baht in assets. While taking that with a grain of salt, if true, it's surprising that 25 of that was put into a single car.

I wonder if he's made an offer to Paris for the other in order to have sole possession of all of these awesome looking vehicles.

25 million is enough to make a statement that

'I have enough dosh to thumb muy nose at you and be on the same scale as Paris Hilton'....

though god knows why he'd think being parallel to Paris is a good thing.

Obama and Mrs. O. have much better taste than to have a pink Bentley.

Edited March 22, 2012 by animatic

[sparebox2]

First, learn how the other side thinks? Go ask Bush.

If you are not with us, you are with the enermy.......

[hellodolly]

First, learn how the other side thinks? Go ask Bush.

If you are not with us, you are with the enermy.......

That pretty well sums it up here in Thailand.

Don't ever forget your number one job as a politician is to have power and fill your pockets.

I think all sides realize that.

[sparebox2]

First, learn how the other side thinks? Go ask Bush.

If you are not with us, you are with the enermy.......

That pretty well sums it up here in Thailand.

Don't ever forget your number one job as a politician is to have power and fill your pockets.

I think all sides realize that.

Sharing of stolen/robbed wealth is not something thieves or politicians are known to be good at.

Especially in Thailand.

[Famespear]

This must be from Thaksin's own playbook!

I want more money, my balance sheet shows my worth on the planet.

I want to control how things are run, so I have power to go with my money.

I want to manipulate people in large groups because that shows my power.

I must make all the decisions because I can't stand being out of control.

I want them to make more face for me than ALL OF YOU , and I don't care who I use or abuse to do this.

You MUST respect me more because I CAN do this. If you don't show it, watch out.

Easy to think like the other side, if you chuck aside morals and compassion.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Famespear

[TAWP]

Prove that the other side thinks. On anyone but themselves.

[slipperx]

Neither of the political parties have the benefit of the country at heart. They both operate to serve themselves in whatever way they can best muster. The current lot are sadly grossly negligent and openly serving not the people they represent but themselves. It is an unfair feeding frenzy with the meal served courtesy of the average Thai mainly because they are mostly so poorly educated they don't know what to think about it. You can bleat on about Thaksin having been unfairly disabused of power, you can bleat on about Thaksin being corrupt and abusing his position and you can ponder on the legality or otherwise of the Thai constitution. It is all a disguise for the absolute abuse and total lack of social conscience of all the with even a smidgen of power. Until someone tackles the corruption at least on he face of it, for it can likely never be obliterated, there will neve be any chance of even a mildly fair society here. Thais don care because they don't know and that is precisely the intention of those in power. I think the OP has a point and at least that point deserves fair examination rather tan the put down of he wholly biased first poster.

You can probably count on one hand the number of politicians in Thailand who are in power for altruistic purposes. Whereas in the US you'd need two hands.

Can you let me know who they are because I want to petition their support?

Thanks