dundee48 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Step back for a minute. What would be your reaction if standing in the subway car with you was a man with volatile explosives? Would you be concerned? Would you wonder how such a man got on the subway? Would you consider the man to be an ignorant or selfish imbecile to be walking about with explosives that could easily detonate causing serious injuries to innocent bystanders? The fact of the matter is that this Irishman wasn't thinking about the safety of others and was willing to bring what was most likely hydrogen filled ballons into a small space filled with people. Some of you would have another view had the balloons exploded in the subway car burning and disfiguring people. Absolutely unbellievable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mca Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 From the video it clearly shows the farang as arrogant and aggressive...if the balloons meant so much to his daughter, the least a sensible father could do stop creating a scene and take a cab back...maybe this farang thinks he is still in Vietnam... Were the Irish in Vietnam? Yes. They took a wrong turn on the way from Dublin to Cork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimjim Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I have to say this got out of hand on both sides, but why is the guy throwing a fit over some balloons? These things can be explained to children. Children understand things are not allowed sometimes. Surely they learn the rules in kindergarten. Way over-reaction by Behan and a bad example shown to his daughter. Could have all been avoided if he just talked in a calm manner and said ok. Silly, silly confrontation that could easily have been avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimjim Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Having watched the video again, the guards also did not hand the situation well once he got inside the station. They just tried to pull the balloons away from him which helped to escalate the situation. Not the way guards should do things. He may not have been listening, but that physically escalate the situation as well. Not sure how much explanation had been given to him before they just tried to pull the balloons away forcefully. I think some better training is in order. Both sides look bad in my opinion. edit: Actually, I didn't watch the video posted on page 1 "again," but watched another youtube video that was taken from a closer vantage point. Edited March 23, 2012 by Jimjim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 One last baiting post deleted, I would highly recommend you drop it. now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Is anyone else bored of this subject yet? For once I am really looking forward to the next Sin-Sot thread gimme a UK Pension freeze whinge thread any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimjim Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Ok not sure if anyone cares about my opinion but I've read more on the story and from what I can make out the videos are taken after he's already been hit in the face by the guard. He's got blood on his face when he finally enters through the gate. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd be mad if I'd just been hit in the face over some balloons, and I understand his anger at that point. He probably could have handled it better, but I'm not sure it deserved a hit in the face with a scanner, from what I can make out. When I first watched the video I thought he hadn't been hit yet and that it came after the video was over, not before. The only issue is why did he not just give up the balloons like he was asked, before going in, and why did the guard feel the need to hit him in the face with a scanner? Surely it's not in their training to use that as a weapon in such a situation and I can see why they've let him go. But everything still could have been avoided on both sides, likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaimat Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The balloons had to have been filled with helium, which is an inert gas. The balloons were filled with air. At 0:54 in the video the balloons are released and fall to the ground...no helium, no hydrogen, plain atmospheric air! What should have been posted was, Possession of balloons will get you beaten. Arguing with BTS rent-a-cops will get you beaten. Refusing first-aid will get you beaten. The Balloon Law is the Law, Jean Valjean style. What kind of a knucklehead claims "the rules are the rules" here? Isn't Thaksin a wanted criminal for breaking the rules, yet runs the country? How about the many Thais, policemen especially, found guilty of crimes against Farangs and Thais, including murder, yet remain free to this day? So shouldn't you say "the rules are the rules, when it's a Farang breaking them"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 from what I can make out the videos are taken after he's already been hit in the face by the guard. Why is he still carrying the balloons if this is so? I find it hard to believe that the guards would beat the crap out of him for carrying balloons and not take them away from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 The balloons had to have been filled with helium, which is an inert gas. The balloons were filled with air. At 0:54 in the video the balloons are released and fall to the ground...no helium, no hydrogen, plain atmospheric air! What should have been posted was, Possession of balloons will get you beaten. Arguing with BTS rent-a-cops will get you beaten. Refusing first-aid will get you beaten. The Balloon Law is the Law, Jean Valjean style. What kind of a knucklehead claims "the rules are the rules" here? Isn't Thaksin a wanted criminal for breaking the rules, yet runs the country? How about the many Thais, policemen especially, found guilty of crimes against Farangs and Thais, including murder, yet remain free to this day? So shouldn't you say "the rules are the rules, when it's a Farang breaking them"? Yes, and I am sure the comparisons to Thaksin and rouge policemen were going through all parties minds as these events unfolded. I'm pretty sure the Irish bloke was probably doing his best Rosa Parks as well. No one comes out of this incident unscathed. The BTS needs to figure out how it can provide security that is above the pay grade of a bunch of issan rent-a-cops. The rent-a-cops need to know and be trained in how to handle difficult situations, in this case difficult passengers. Passengers need to realise that they are traveling on PUBLIC transport, and that safety issues, are paramount - regardless if they don't agree with them. I do often wonder however what the TV mob would be saying if, instead of an Irishman, the hurt passenger was say of Middle Eastern Origin? I'm betting London to a brick that there would be more than a few people here patting the rent-a-cop on the back - after all, he might have been a terrorist? (not). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendix Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 The balloons had to have been filled with helium, which is an inert gas. The balloons were filled with air. At 0:54 in the video the balloons are released and fall to the ground...no helium, no hydrogen, plain atmospheric air! What should have been posted was, Possession of balloons will get you beaten. Arguing with BTS rent-a-cops will get you beaten. Refusing first-aid will get you beaten. The Balloon Law is the Law, Jean Valjean style. What kind of a knucklehead claims "the rules are the rules" here? Isn't Thaksin a wanted criminal for breaking the rules, yet runs the country? How about the many Thais, policemen especially, found guilty of crimes against Farangs and Thais, including murder, yet remain free to this day? So shouldn't you say "the rules are the rules, when it's a Farang breaking them"? Yes, and I am sure the comparisons to Thaksin and rouge policemen were going through all parties minds as these events unfolded. I'm pretty sure the Irish bloke was probably doing his best Rosa Parks as well. No one comes out of this incident unscathed. The BTS needs to figure out how it can provide security that is above the pay grade of a bunch of issan rent-a-cops. The rent-a-cops need to know and be trained in how to handle difficult situations, in this case difficult passengers. Passengers need to realise that they are traveling on PUBLIC transport, and that safety issues, are paramount - regardless if they don't agree with them. I do often wonder however what the TV mob would be saying if, instead of an Irishman, the hurt passenger was say of Middle Eastern Origin? I'm betting London to a brick that there would be more than a few people here patting the rent-a-cop on the back - after all, he might have been a terrorist? (not). Or, perhaps, if he had just looked middle eastern but was later (too late) found to have been an innocent Brazilian student. Oh wait a minute . . . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tx22cb Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 The balloons had to have been filled with helium, which is an inert gas. The balloons were filled with air. At 0:54 in the video the balloons are released and fall to the ground...no helium, no hydrogen, plain atmospheric air! There is no way you or the Security Guard could know that. The balloons were not filled with Hydrogen or Helium because, as you say, they fell to the ground when released; but that is definitely no evidence that they were filled with Air - there are a LOT of gases which are heavier than Air which are extremely combustible or toxic. I think BTS is being very irresponsible with Security now though - they suspend one set of Guards for letting the clown get on a train earlier but also suspend Guards at Promphong for trying to do their duty. I suspect in any future incident the Guards will just look the other way and pretend they see nothing - a great approach to Security Khun Anan! Patrick Can you please provide a link that shows there are a `lot of gases which are heavier than air which are extremely combustible or toxic please. From a quick Google, here are the 3 most readily-available gaseous fuels (well, propane is common in the US at least) and 2 nasties: a) LPG is heavier than air http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas propane is heavier than air (1.5 times as dense). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane c) LNG vapor is heavier than air (by 1.52) http://www.narucmeetings.org/Presentations/drraj-gas0704.pdf d) sarin is heavier than air http://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/sarin/basics/facts.asp e) Phosgene gas is heavier than air http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/phosgene/basics/pdf/phosgene-facts.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagleflyinghigh Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 And all the other idiots who can't stop complaining, moaning, seem to be so unhappy with so much in Thailand, especially with the Thais; go home, if its so much whatever . . . Just go away and let the rest of us who like the Thais the way they are, get on with enjoying this lovely place. I'm sick of seeing Argo situations, road rage and misunderstandings which are totally visitor created, by visitor who are suggesting the Thais need to change and do it their way. The thais have their own ways of doing stuff and it works for them. I attest you a healthy optimism if you find this place lovely, I believe it is at best a well wrapped and disguised part of the third world. Not having been colonialized nobody teached them how to handle our civilization their elites now try to ape. This can at best be amusing and has nothing to do with potentially lethal force being applied by an unqualified security guard without police power. "Unqualified" and "police power" are the keywords. Thais will have to change if they don't want to remain behind even their fellow ASEAN partners and their "own ways" certainly don't work among themselves either. The effectiveness of communication among them and the enforcement of rules is disastrous. Just look at highway accident numbers, police corruption and the constant bending of alll rules. Gladly there is at least one thing they are forced to respect under the threat of a very strict Law. Keeps them somewhat at bay...... And believe me: Foreigners going home would nothing arrange here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 What's the obsession over the qualifications of the security guard? Are the police qualified? I mean seriously, do you think the local BiB on the corner packing a weapon is a trained police professional? How about the typical gun toting soldier? The conscript is given a weapon and in between serving as cheap labour for the officer cadre, do you really think he gets much training? The BTS guards do go through a training course and the former police and military officials that designed the training and that provide it have shared their own expertise. So, yea, why the singling out of the guard. It is what it is and anyone with a few functioning brain cells will know that Thais in uniforms should be handled with care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagleflyinghigh Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 So, yea, why the singling out of the guard. It is what it is and anyone with a few functioning brain cells will know that Thais in uniforms should be handled with care. You are perfectly right, but I believe even under Thai Law there is the possibility to sue the guard, his employeer and the train company for inappropriate action. Hitting on the head could lead to death and should be a taboo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasRanger Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Even well trained security/police/military personnel have a limit of how many times you can be pushed, poked, kicked or punched before you just hit back. It isn't right, it is against the rules, but it is human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendix Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I don't understand why so many people are spending precious time googling the chemistry of gases and swinging dicks to prove how knowledgeable they are on the weight of hydrogen compared to helium. What was in the balloon is hardly relevant. The guy was told by security that he couldnt bring it on. He ignored it. Case closed. All that is left to discuss are the fineries of how the two parties subsequently handled the breach of MTR regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 So, yea, why the singling out of the guard. It is what it is and anyone with a few functioning brain cells will know that Thais in uniforms should be handled with care. You are perfectly right, but I believe even under Thai Law there is the possibility to sue the guard, his employeer and the train company for inappropriate action. Hitting on the head could lead to death and should be a taboo. You are correct. Unfortunately, 10,000 baht in compensation isn't much when you deduct the time off work, the delays and legal fees to get the settlement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasRanger Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 The BTS needs to figure out how it can provide security that is above the pay grade of a bunch of issan rent-a-cops. Oh? Are they all from Issan? None from Bangkok, Chonburi or Southern Thailand? Bad, uneducated people, must be from Issan right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F4UCorsair Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) I don't understand why so many people are spending precious time googling the chemistry of gases and swinging dicks to prove how knowledgeable they are on the weight of hydrogen compared to helium. What was in the balloon is hardly relevant. The guy was told by security that he couldnt bring it on. He ignored it. Case closed. All that is left to discuss are the fineries of how the two parties subsequently handled the breach of MTR regulations. bendix, a clear thinker at last. Not many posts here by clear thinkers, unfortunately, and not many of us have said exactly what you said The guy was told by security he couldn't bring it on. He ignored it. Case closed.. The niceties, or otherwise, of who threw the first punch, can be sorted out later, but my observation is that the Irish guy was behaving badly, and continued to do so, and my guess would be it was him. Edited March 24, 2012 by F4UCorsair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallGuyJohninBKK Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) Wonder what, if anything, the "investigating" Thai police are going to do with this one??? Are they going to charge the security guard for trying to enforce the rules? Are they going to charge the maniac teacher who ended up with a kosh on his head? We might know better if allowed to see the full BTS surveillance video that most likely shows what happened BEFORE the posted video clip. BTS, of course, is a publicly held company and a lot of its riders are farangs and tourists... They certainly don't want to gain the reputation of the transit service that attacks its riders. A messy situation all around, although one that could have been avoided entirely if the teacher had just walked away and taken a taxi instead. Edited March 24, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Snake Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I used to live in Texas and I tried to imagine what this situation would look like in a US context. A Mexican immigrant (let's say a yard/lawn maintenance service provider), who speaks little English, comes to a Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) train station, The DART security guard tells the Mexican (with a perfect Texas drawl, Pardon Me Sir) not to bring a banned item (let's say an Armadillo) into the train station, The Mexican is not very conversant in the local language, and tries to argue using Spanish mixed with pidgin English, which the blond blue-eyed American guard does not understand. The Mexican thinks the US rules are nonsensical (in Mexico Mexicans can carry Armadillos onto Mexican trains) and ignores the guard and tries to get onto the DART train, reasoning that American rules are stupid and that Mexican norms should apply in Dallas. If this story ran in the Texas papers, we flag-waving Americans would throw the Mexican back across the Rio Grande pronto. And recruit another yard/lawn maintenance service provider in his stead from the Home Depot parking lot. It wouldn't even have to be a mexican with an armadillo. If I tried to bring bottled water past TSA, I can expect to be restrained. If I then tried to push and kick, I can then expect to be slammed on the floor knee on top of the head, hands behind my back , taken into custody. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 The guy was told by security he couldn't bring it on. He ignored it. Case closed.. The niceties, or otherwise, of who threw the first punch, can be sorted out later, but my observation is that the Irish guy was behaving badly, and continued to do so, and my guess would be it was him. Lets examine the facts and ask the following questions, this has nothing to do with people see or think they see in a video clip: 1. BTS company has come out and apologized to the guy concerned and sent flowers 2. BTS company has fired the guard concerned 3. BTS company has promised to co-operate with any police investigation 4. Injured party (the farang) has indicated he does not wish to press charges or the guys lose his job 5. does it appear that the farang acted like an ass-hole...yes...but does this warrant being beaten around the head with a metal detector Have the police/ BTS company pressed charges against the farang for vandalism/assualt/criminal tresspass ?...as far as I am aware.. No Has the Security guard come out an publically apologised for his conduct....as far as i am aware No. Is there full video survelliance footage of the incident from BTS CCTV system (you bet your life there is....therefore see items 1,2,3) so tell me again who threw the first "punch" ? Just based on the facts under 1,2,3, there can only be one conclusion...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermute Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Personally I think a whack in the head wasn't harsh enough. Suit or not it's pretty apparent these two British (or Irish or whatever) yobbos were spoiling for a scrap with some natives. If you're told you can't bring things in you're not supposed to bring then don't do it especially when it's public transit and public safety at risk. The guards need to learn how to subdue and enforce fines effectively though. They should have restrained and cuffed him on the floor face down and waited until the proper police came to issue fines for breaking the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 We might know better if allowed to see the full BTS surveillance video that most likely shows what happened BEFORE the posted video clip. The steps currently taken by the BTS company ie apologies and flowers are steps to ensure the survelliance footage does not become public....now why would that be ?? Responsibility/accountabilty for the incident has already been accepted by the BTS company....therefore there should be no further debate required....it just seens be we have a gang of manic farangs on TV trying to prove for some reason that All farangs are bad....All Thai's are good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Personally I think a whack in the head wasn't harsh enough. Suit or not it's pretty apparent these two British (or Irish or whatever) yobbos were spoiling for a scrap with some natives. If you're told you can't bring things in you're not supposed to bring then don't do it especially when it's public transit and public safety at risk. The guards need to learn how to subdue and enforce fines effectively though. They should have restrained and cuffed him on the floor face down and waited until the proper police came to issue fines for breaking the law. Nothing is apparant....where you there, have you seen footage of the full incident ?.....however you second paragraph is correct if it was a case of someone getting out line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 The guards need to learn how to subdue and enforce fines effectively though. They should have restrained and cuffed him on the floor face down and waited until the proper police came to issue fines for breaking the law. That would be much more refined than bashing the miscreant in the head with a metal detector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F4UCorsair Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 The guy was told by security he couldn't bring it on. He ignored it. Case closed.. The niceties, or otherwise, of who threw the first punch, can be sorted out later, but my observation is that the Irish guy was behaving badly, and continued to do so, and my guess would be it was him. Lets examine the facts and ask the following questions, this has nothing to do with people see or think they see in a video clip: 1. BTS company has come out and apologized to the guy concerned and sent flowers 2. BTS company has fired the guard concerned 3. BTS company has promised to co-operate with any police investigation 4. Injured party (the farang) has indicated he does not wish to press charges or the guys lose his job 5. does it appear that the farang acted like an ass-hole...yes...but does this warrant being beaten around the head with a metal detector Have the police/ BTS company pressed charges against the farang for vandalism/assualt/criminal tresspass ?...as far as I am aware.. No Has the Security guard come out an publically apologised for his conduct....as far as i am aware No. Is there full video survelliance footage of the incident from BTS CCTV system (you bet your life there is....therefore see items 1,2,3) so tell me again who threw the first "punch" ? Just based on the facts under 1,2,3, there can only be one conclusion...? Spoutpeel, I'd hate to have you representing me in court with logic like that. Your logic has more holes than a colander. Because somebody apologizes does not make them in the wrong, particularly in a place like Thailand, where 'face' is so important. Politicians apologize every day for non events. Ordinary people apologize to defuse situations. I can't imagine the security guard going up to the Irishman and clobbering him for no reason. If he did, Behan would be pressing charges, and would want the guard to lose his job. I'm sure he was asked, before the youtube video started to lose the balloons, he refused and became violent, so was given a 'touch up'. The video then started and he continued being violent, and from where I stand, the security guy used enormous restraint. Even the Irish guy's mate tried to hold him back, but he wasn't having any of that as he had a point to prove. The wide eye must win at all costs. If the BTS CCTV video is made available, and the security guard threw the first punch, I'll be on here saying how wrong I was to make the assumption I have. Won't happen for two reasons, firstly the CCTV video won't be released to the public, and secondly, I bet the guard didn't throw the first punch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonableman Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 So its a bet based on a hunch, based on... What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallGuyJohninBKK Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 it just seens be we have a gang of manic farangs on TV trying to prove for some reason that All farangs are bad....All Thai's are good No...not all farangs or Thais of anything... Just one overly aggressive, out-of-control farang acting like a jerk in public...no matter what happened prior to the start of the posted video. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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