Family Of Man In Skytrain Scuffle Threatened

[peecee]

wow, new to the foum and just read some of the garbage in here.

A blow to the head followed up by a group attack is not reasonable unless you are in imminent danger, insulting someone does not then mean that someone can smack you over the head, and then attack you again in a group.

Unless the security guard felt threatened that he was about to be attacked with the balloon sword. (joke)

Some of you in this thread need to get a grip of yourselves, the security here is 100% in the wrong and severly over reacted to a simple matter caused by their own inconsistencies. Some of you are blaming Behan for causing this,. however how far back do we want to take the chain, the security would be to blame for allowing him to carry balloons on the BTS on he previous journey that day setting a precedent that caused confusion when he tried to get on the BTS again. There was no signs here saying that balloons are not allowed on the BTS and I have seen balloons on the BTS many times so I wonder how many of you actually knew this rule.

One other thing, someones mentions you should follow the orders of people in uniform, well even for police officers it has to be lawful order, and as for security guards they are following a set of rules thats should not be subjective, and when they are allowed to be subjective we get situations like this.

Don't get confused between laws and rules also and who has the authority to uphold or enforce such things.

If the BTS wants to say they are protecting passengers from terrorist attacks I look forward to the setting up of a system where all bags are searched prior to entry to the BTS, horror of horrors someone might have a balloon in their rucksack with intent to make their children happy.

the character assasination from some posters in here aimed at behan just shows what a small minded, bitter, twisted group of people we have on here and in their desire to praise everything or everyone thai has has accussed him of many things, drunkeness, aggressivness, questioned his abilities as a parent etc etc etc, all because he tried to get a BTS,carrying the same items he has already had on the BTS that day only to be stopped by an agressive guard (how do I know he was agressive, well I would suggest hitting someone during a verbal dispute pretty much shows his demeanour).

I wonder when the next attack will be and for what? refusing to go in a tailors shop, not admitting to dropping litter in the street even though you have not, using the wrong door entering Paragon, being in possession of a foreign face on the MRT etc etc etc. I know, I am over eggagerating here, but make no mistake the attack on Behan was out of order as I am pretty sure the cctv will show IF it ever gets released.

There has to be limits, this guard/guards overstepped them.

Better get used to reading a lot of bitter & twisted crap if you're going to stay on here!

Appropriate reaction to someone who is aggressive is just that, once the guard's had reinforcements they should have overpowered & restrained him. To carry on with a beating would warrant charges in most western countries, however; this is not one of them & we have to learn quick not to expect tempered treatment.

Even handedness here start's with 10bt for "street food" rice if Thai, 20bt if farang. This attitude escalates all the way up the food chain & is backed up by the police; no win situation I'd say!!

[Ferangled]

It's been over a week, with no new information, and the speculations continue.

Unless the police release a statement, I expect this will be the end of it. Not like their is any investigative journalism here ... they just wait for somebody to drop the news on their desk. And I am guessing all the parties involved at this point would like to see this become a distant memory.

Bar the thinly veiled stab at a certain journalist, I hate to admit it but I actually agree with the latter part of your post; I'm sure those involved would much prefer that this whole incident becomes a distant memory.

Undoubtedly it will, as are many such fiasco here, simply be brushed under the carpet, filed in the "ongoing investigation" drawer and forgotten.

The fact that you imply that for any sort of justice we have to rely on investigative journalism in place of police work says a great deal about this country... and I'm afraid that, again, I'd have to agree.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Ferangled

[Ferangled]

It's been over a week, with no new information, and the speculations continue.

Unless the police release a statement, I expect this will be the end of it. Not like their is any investigative journalism here ... they just wait for somebody to drop the news on their desk. And I am guessing all the parties involved at this point would like to see this become a distant memory.

Bar the thinly veiled stab at a certain journalist, I hate to admit it but I actually agree with the latter part of your post; I'm sure those involved would much prefer that this whole incident becomes a distant memory.

Undoubtedly it will, as are many such fiasco here, simply be brushed under the carpet, filed in the "ongoing investigation" drawer and forgotten.

The fact that you imply that for any sort of justice we have to rely on investigative journalism in place of police work says a great deal about this country... and I'm afraid that, again, I'd have to agree.

Just like to add, it is a shame that investigative reporters get hounded and condemned for bias whenever they try to present a situation that certain people don't appreciate being aired. I'm sure you'd agree that this isn't conducive to achieving any justice here at all.

Even worse when they are subject to defamatory comments in an attempt to discredit anything they write, ironically the favorite resort for those subject to media or legal scrutiny themselves; It's an easy way to avoid the points raised in a news article or the evidence presented in a legal case, by attacking the source of information/ evidence and discrediting those involved.

All too often we see this same pattern with victims and witnesses in court cases; attempt to discredit them, failing this threats of violence, failing this acts of violence, thus silencing the source and avoiding prosecution.

Hang on, this is all starting to sound a bit familiar... pure coincidence surely...

[Koratpat]

Do they really have security Nazis at public transport depots in your home country searching your bags for more than 3 ounces of liquid or balloons? They do not in my home city.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Re your comment above, I don't think the BTS guards in this instance were searching the teacher's bags at all, as you probably well know... They did spot him visibly carrying balloons and informed him those were not allowed on the BTS.

If someone had 3 ounces of liquid or could fit a balloon in their bag here, they'd likely get on the BTS just fine without any problem, since I've never seen BTS staff or guards search anyone's bags.

At least on the MRT subway, the guards at least go through the pretense of taking a quick look inside purses, shopping bags and anything that sets off their metal detectors.

However, probably in your home city and certainly mine, if a passenger gets into an argument with transit security staff, shouts at them and kicks a trash can in anger, and then perhaps tries to push his way onto the transit, he's likely to face quite a bit of trouble.

[Ferangled]

Re your comment above, I don't think the BTS guards in this instance were searching the teacher's bags at all, as you probably well know... They did spot him visibly carrying balloons and informed him those were not allowed on the BTS.

If someone had 3 ounces of liquid or could fit a balloon in their bag here, they'd likely get on the BTS just fine without any problem, since I've never seen BTS staff or guards search anyone's bags.

At least on the MRT subway, the guards at least go through the pretense of taking a quick look inside purses, shopping bags and anything that sets off their metal detectors.

However, probably in your home city and certainly mine, if a passenger gets into an argument with transit security staff, shouts at them and kicks a trash can in anger, and then perhaps tries to push his way onto the transit, he's likely to face quite a bit of trouble.

Inclusive of a beating about the head with a weapon? Not without prosecution of the guard responsible and I'm guessing here, purely speculation I'm sure you'd understand, that you're from the states, where the passenger would in all likelihood embark on a highly successful and lucrative personal injury suit to boot.

[Nisa]

It's been over a week, with no new information, and the speculations continue.

Unless the police release a statement, I expect this will be the end of it. Not like their is any investigative journalism here ... they just wait for somebody to drop the news on their desk. And I am guessing all the parties involved at this point would like to see this become a distant memory.

Bar the thinly veiled stab at a certain journalist, I hate to admit it but I actually agree with the latter part of your post; I'm sure those involved would much prefer that this whole incident becomes a distant memory.

Undoubtedly it will, as are many such fiasco here, simply be brushed under the carpet, filed in the "ongoing investigation" drawer and forgotten.

The fact that you imply that for any sort of justice we have to rely on investigative journalism in place of police work says a great deal about this country... and I'm afraid that, again, I'd have to agree.

FYI, I wasn't even thinking about him when I wrote that. I meant here in Thailand .. not here on this board or blogger sites. I was referring to the folks at real and regular publications like The Nation and other publications most of our English based news comes from here (Thailand and ThaiVisa). It is usually nothing more than them picking up on another story or relaying a press release from the police or other agency. Point is they don't seem to aggressively search out news or follow-up on news here.

I certainly didn't (mean to) imply that there needs to be investigative journalism for there to be justice ... but there does need to be investigative / proactive journalism for us folks who like to weigh in on other people's business ;-)

However, investigative journalism is responsible for helping people in authority stay honest around the world.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Nisa

[Nisa]

I see a slew of posters advocating a violent beating by a security guard that would be called excessive force in their home country if a cop did it..

Can you point out one post that advocated "a violent beating by a security guard"? I have seen a bunch that said he should have given up the balloons when told to do so, I have seen many that said he should have known better, but I haven't seen one advocated any beating.

It sounds like you are engaging in a bit of hyperbole there in order to minimize the wrong decisions the Mr. Behan admits to making.

TH

I was going to ask the same question but then I realized this whole thing started with the poster of this video saying it showed a farang getting attacked by BTS employees and even though the exact opposite is true, it is incredibly hard for some people to even accept the reality of what is on the video. Even I believed the OP, new story and Youtube title saying it showed the farang getting beat up and had to watch a number of times to try to see what I was missing. However, the result of watching it a number of times just convinced me how the Irish guy;s behavior was inexcusable, regardless of what may have transpired before. I suspect if he had been Thai and not Irish (westerner), the title and opinions here would be much different ... won't even speculate the opinions if this happened in the UK or NY, weeks after a terrorist incident in the city, and the obsessed balloon carrier on the video was a Thai citizen.

[Ferangled]

"behavior was inexcusable, regardless of what may have transpired before"

A very bold and impossible statement to apply to any situation, especially one where you deliberately and repeatedly choose to ignore the only published witness statements, including the cameraman, stating that "the Irish guy" had been attacked by a BTS guard, backed up by this video showing a man clearly suffering from quite a severe head wound.

Has there been a single witness statement contrary to these?

But you see kicking bins and acting aggressively to a confrontation following an assault as the main issue here and tend to gloss over the initial assault altogether in your posts... we won't even mentioned the statements detailing a gang assault following the video, again confirmed by the cameraman.

"I suspect if he had been Thai and not Irish (westerner)"

I see no reason to try to make this into a race issue, an assault is an assault; there has been no suggestion by anyone involved that there was any racial motive to this crime.

"won't even speculate the opinions if this happened in the UK or NY, weeks after a terrorist incident in the city, and the obsessed balloon carrier on the video was a Thai citizen."

Again the race card? Now terrorist involvement?! Are we back to the balloon conspiracy theories again?! And now balloon obsession?!!

I guess everyone's take on this differs depending greatly on whether you base it on the given evidence to hand or wild speculation...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Inclusive of a beating about the head with a weapon? Not without prosecution of the guard responsible and I'm guessing here, purely speculation I'm sure you'd understand, that you're from the states, where the passenger would in all likelihood embark on a highly successful and lucrative personal injury suit to boot.

More likely, as I mentioned above, a trip to the local hospital and/or jail cell.

AFAIK, no one here has seen the video of what transpired before or after the one video segment that's been posted. And I'll leave aside the questions and methods of Mr. Drummond's "commentary" version of supposed events.

For most of us here who share my views, we're not giving the guards any kind of pass in this incident. Rather, we don't have any independent, clear evidence of the full course of events that day...as the full CCTV video would show. If that shows the guards overreacted or failed to follow their proper procedures, then by all means they should be disciplined or prosecuted if what occurred rises to that level of conduct.

But all of us have seen what the teacher did that day in the video that has been made public, including his having to be horse-collar restrained by his companion, his trying to kick at the female BTS station supervisor, and the rest. Not to mention his own pretty much admitted ill-advised decision that day to throw a temper tantrum instead of just walking away...

As others have already said many times, he could have easily avoided the entire episode and had a pleasant uneventful trip home with his daughter. But instead, he chose a path of confrontation and a public display of anger. He clearly started it... and perhaps the guards finished it...perhaps more than they should have.

The evidence that he started it is clear. The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown.

[nocturn]

He probably wants to avoid the special attention that Mr Behan is getting, I know I would.

I seem to recall that according to Behan's wife, he's apparently a colleague at the same school, so as you say, with all that's gone on, he might not want to jeopardise his job there.

Would you come forward if it was your friend and you would clearly have to admit your friend was out of control attacking security that posed him no threat after he refused to obey the rules that were explained? Regardless of what negative he can say about security, he would have to bury his friend too. His actions in the video clearly show he knows his friend is the one that needs restraining (not protection).

all this speculation is grand, but how do we know he hasn't come forward?

[PoodMaiDai]

Me too Ulysses. No guard, no matter how undertrained, would just clobber a traveler for the hell of it.

Not me.

I do believe some words may have been exchanged, or maybe the falang just ignored him and that upset the guard, but that is still no reason to club someone. Well, at least not in a civilized world. In the mind of a Thai male it seems like a perfectly good reason to club, stab, or shoot.

I've seen Thais do really bad things to foreigners for no reason at all. Most were in Pattaya I may note, but some of them have a deep resentment towards falangs and are looking for any excuse to let out some of that resentment on them.

[flying]

I do believe some words may have been exchanged, or maybe the falang just ignored him and that upset the guard, but that is still no reason to club someone. Well, at least not in a civilized world.

I dont know...........go to you tube & searched tazed

Or even last week they had on the news here in the US a guy at the Oklahoma Airport

tried to go in the exit because he wanted to see Newt Gingrich......

Well they tazed him threw him to the floor cuffed his hands behind his back.

Then two cops each grabbed one of his ankles while he was still on his stomach.

They then dragged him out of the airport with his face down on the ground being dragged across the floor...ouch

You can go to you tube & put man tazed at Oaklahoma Citys Airport in the search box to watch it,

Dont just put man tazed at airport because the list will be too long or worse yet man tazed in US

Overall I am not sure what happened with this Thai BTS deal but I do know anywhere else in the *civilized* world that

man would not still be carrying a balloon/walking/fighting/traveling after the initial confrontation

Sad but True & I am not saying I agree with any of it......Just that is how it is these days

PS: Funny login & avatar! Like it ++

Edited April 6, 2012 by flying

[luckyluke]

We all agree, I think, that the reaction from the security guard(s) on the behaviour of Mr. Behan was inadequate.

But what should security do if a customer is acting the way Mr. Behan was?

Should they called the police or does BTS have a kind of railway police?

or....?

[Ferangled]

"The evidence that he started it is clear. The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown."

I'll reiterate my point made to Nisa and duly ignored, as your are clearly mistaking evidence for your own assumptions. You deliberately and repeatedly choose to ignore the only published witness statements, including the cameraman, stating that "the Irish guy" had been attacked by a BTS guard, backed up by this video showing a man clearly suffering from quite a severe head wound.

Has there been a single witness statement contrary to this? I notice that both of you, true to form, selectively ignore this question! I haven't seen a single witness statement disputing that the guard assaulted the teacher... only speculative BS on here by people that weren't there.

But you see kicking bins and acting aggressively to a confrontation following an assault as the main issue here and tend to gloss over the initial assault altogether in your posts... we won't even mentioned the statements detailing a gang assault following the video, again confirmed by the cameraman.

You base your comments about the teacher on a single video taken out of context and selectively ignore the statement from the individual that took the video. Then to summarize that "the evidence he started it is clear" when you have absolutely no evidence to that effect is absurd.

Please don't confuse evidence with speculation or opinion.

"The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown" Only if you decide to ignore all the witness statements (evidence!)... there's clearly no reasoning with someone who selectively ignores the given facts of the case because to acknowledge them would be detrimental to their own ego!

The fact that Mr Behan behaved badly in not a point of dispute - he has admitted this himself. To try to use that to justify a beating is naive and displays a somewhat medieval outlook on life. You clearly have a very limited knowledge of (modern) ethics & law.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Ferangled

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Really, where do you originate from, Somalia?

Amerika. Try it there sometime, especially if you're a foreigner. Quite likely to get a lot worse than that, tased or shot.

Well, more likely than here anyway.

We all agree, I think, that the reaction from the security guard(s) on the behaviour of Mr. Behan was inadequate.

But what should security do if a customer is acting the way Mr. Behan was?

Should they called the police or does BTS have a kind of railway police?

or....?

They can, should and will use whatever force is required to prevent him from entering the facility. The private security force **is** the "railway police".

Everyone knows the official police here are hopeless, absolutely can't depend on them for any consistency, more likely to cause trouble than solve anything.

Therefore private businesses have to make their own arrangements.

I do believe some words may have been exchanged, or maybe the falang just ignored him and that upset the guard, but that is still no reason to club someone. Well, at least not in a civilized world. In the mind of a Thai male it seems like a perfectly good reason to club, stab, or shoot.

I've seen Thais do really bad things to foreigners for no reason at all. Most were in Pattaya I may note, but some of them have a deep resentment towards falangs and are looking for any excuse to let out some of that resentment on them.

"Civilized world". What makes you think Thailand is included, in fact IMO such a concept has been fast disappearing worldwide, the list of "whole countries" that would fall into such a definition is now under a dozen, and certainly doesn't include any large ones I can think of where English is the first language.

The best we can hope for is civilized individuals in higher proportion than not.

Thailand certainly has that IMO more so than many. However its government, police, economy and other meta-structures are pretty much not, just at the individual level.

Edited April 6, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[chrisinth]

"The evidence that he started it is clear. The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown."

I'll reiterate my point made to Nisa and duly ignored, as your are clearly mistaking evidence for your own assumptions. You deliberately and repeatedly choose to ignore the only published witness statements, including the cameraman, stating that "the Irish guy" had been attacked by a BTS guard, backed up by this video showing a man clearly suffering from quite a severe head wound.

Has there been a single witness statement contrary to this? I notice that both of you, true to form, selectively ignore this question! I haven't seen a single witness statement disputing that the guard assaulted the teacher... only speculative BS on here by people that weren't there.

But you see kicking bins and acting aggressively to a confrontation following an assault as the main issue here and tend to gloss over the initial assault altogether in your posts... we won't even mentioned the statements detailing a gang assault following the video, again confirmed by the cameraman.

You base your comments about the teacher on a single video taken out of context and selectively ignore the statement from the individual that took the video. Then to summarize that "the evidence he started it is clear" when you have absolutely no evidence to that effect is absurd.

Please don't confuse evidence with speculation or opinion.

"The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown" Only if you decide to ignore all the witness statements (evidence!)... there's clearly no reasoning with someone who selectively ignores the given facts of the case because to acknowledge them would be detrimental to their own ego!

The fact that Mr Behan behaved badly in not a point of dispute - he has admitted this himself. To try to use that to justify a beating is naive and displays a somewhat medieval outlook on life. You clearly have a very limited knowledge of (modern) ethics & law.

"According to Anat, Behan argued heatedly with the security guards, pushing one in the chest and kicking the chief of the station. In self-defence, a security guard hit the passenger with a scanner.

"The chief of the station then tried to provide first aid, but the passenger refused and tried to walk up the platform. Then, the scene turned chaotic again," Anat said."

The above is taken from the article posted on TV on 23rd March. Irregardless of when it was posted, the facts of the quote should not change. It clearly states "in self defence".

Edit: This is human nature that a single line of a statement is omited so that a person's already "made up mind" remains intact.

Edited April 6, 2012 by chrisinth

[Sayonarax]

You guys need to get a hobby and stop wasting your time.

[Ferangled]

"The evidence that he started it is clear. The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown."

I'll reiterate my point made to Nisa and duly ignored, as your are clearly mistaking evidence for your own assumptions. You deliberately and repeatedly choose to ignore the only published witness statements, including the cameraman, stating that "the Irish guy" had been attacked by a BTS guard, backed up by this video showing a man clearly suffering from quite a severe head wound.

Has there been a single witness statement contrary to this? I notice that both of you, true to form, selectively ignore this question! I haven't seen a single witness statement disputing that the guard assaulted the teacher... only speculative BS on here by people that weren't there.

But you see kicking bins and acting aggressively to a confrontation following an assault as the main issue here and tend to gloss over the initial assault altogether in your posts... we won't even mentioned the statements detailing a gang assault following the video, again confirmed by the cameraman.

You base your comments about the teacher on a single video taken out of context and selectively ignore the statement from the individual that took the video. Then to summarize that "the evidence he started it is clear" when you have absolutely no evidence to that effect is absurd.

Please don't confuse evidence with speculation or opinion.

"The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown" Only if you decide to ignore all the witness statements (evidence!)... there's clearly no reasoning with someone who selectively ignores the given facts of the case because to acknowledge them would be detrimental to their own ego!

The fact that Mr Behan behaved badly in not a point of dispute - he has admitted this himself. To try to use that to justify a beating is naive and displays a somewhat medieval outlook on life. You clearly have a very limited knowledge of (modern) ethics & law.

"According to Anat, Behan argued heatedly with the security guards, pushing one in the chest and kicking the chief of the station. In self-defence, a security guard hit the passenger with a scanner.

"The chief of the station then tried to provide first aid, but the passenger refused and tried to walk up the platform. Then, the scene turned chaotic again," Anat said."

The above is taken from the article posted on TV on 23rd March. Irregardless of when it was posted, the facts of the quote should not change. It clearly states "in self defence".

Edit: This is human nature that a single line of a statement is omited so that a person's already "made up mind" remains intact.

Anat was not present at the scene was he? So this is not a witness statement is it?

From the same article:

"BANGKOK: -- Bangkok Mass Transit System (BTS), the operator of the Skytrain, yesterday apologised to a foreign passenger who claimed he was attacked by a security guard for breaching a rule banning gas-filled balloons on the rail system.

The apology followed the filing of police complaints by both sides in the March 16 altercation at Prompong Station.

"We have already removed the guard who were involved from the BTS system," BTS executive Anat Arbhabhirama said yesterday.

He added that negligent officials - who he said were the source of the passenger's dissatisfaction - would also face a disciplinary probe and harsh disciplinary action."

Doesn't change the fact that this is not a witness statement...

"Edit: This is human nature that a single line of a statement is omited so that a person's already "made up mind" remains intact."

Which is exactly what you have done, taking a chosen line of Anat's statements as evidence, when he is a BTS executive, not present at the scene, and then presenting them as facts given by a witness. This is simply not true however much you would like to twist the information to suite your point of view...

"Amerika. Try it there sometime, especially if you're a foreigner. Quite likely to get a lot worse than that, tased or shot"

Why does that not come as a surprise to me?!

Edited April 6, 2012 by Ferangled

[Ferangled]

I do believe some words may have been exchanged, or maybe the falang just ignored him and that upset the guard, but that is still no reason to club someone. Well, at least not in a civilized world.

I dont know...........go to you tube & searched tazed

Or even last week they had on the news here in the US a guy at the Oklahoma Airport

tried to go in the exit because he wanted to see Newt Gingrich......

Well they tazed him threw him to the floor cuffed his hands behind his back.

Then two cops each grabbed one of his ankles while he was still on his stomach.

They then dragged him out of the airport with his face down on the ground being dragged across the floor...ouch

You can go to you tube & put man tazed at Oaklahoma Citys Airport in the search box to watch it,

Dont just put man tazed at airport because the list will be too long or worse yet man tazed in US

Overall I am not sure what happened with this Thai BTS deal but I do know anywhere else in the *civilized* world that

man would not still be carrying a balloon/walking/fighting/traveling after the initial confrontation

Sad but True & I am not saying I agree with any of it......Just that is how it is these days

PS: Funny login & avatar! Like it ++

The US is civilized?! Rarely in my experience! I'm sure anyone that saw the Top Gear US special would concur... sorry completely

[FarangTalk]

Don't know about you, but I base all my opinions of foreigners on what Jeremy Clarkson says.

[eagleflyinghigh]

I've seen Thais do really bad things to foreigners for no reason at all. Most were in Pattaya I may note, but some of them have a deep resentment towards falangs and are looking for any excuse to let out some of that resentment on them.

Deep resentments indeed can "explode" at the first opportunity.

But why these Thai males have these complexes ? Are the reasons econmical or physical. Do we take away their women or are they upset to be mostly "small" under many aspects ?

On the other hand many of us also act condescendingly towards Thais and may well deserve some bad treatment sometimes.....

[chuang]

Don't you think this post should be CLOSED...Enough.....

[JurgenG]

Don't know about you, but I base all my opinions of foreigners on what Jeremy Clarkson says.

Amen to that

Edited April 6, 2012 by JurgenG

[chrisinth]

"The evidence that he started it is clear. The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown."

I'll reiterate my point made to Nisa and duly ignored, as your are clearly mistaking evidence for your own assumptions. You deliberately and repeatedly choose to ignore the only published witness statements, including the cameraman, stating that "the Irish guy" had been attacked by a BTS guard, backed up by this video showing a man clearly suffering from quite a severe head wound.

Has there been a single witness statement contrary to this? I notice that both of you, true to form, selectively ignore this question! I haven't seen a single witness statement disputing that the guard assaulted the teacher... only speculative BS on here by people that weren't there.

But you see kicking bins and acting aggressively to a confrontation following an assault as the main issue here and tend to gloss over the initial assault altogether in your posts... we won't even mentioned the statements detailing a gang assault following the video, again confirmed by the cameraman.

You base your comments about the teacher on a single video taken out of context and selectively ignore the statement from the individual that took the video. Then to summarize that "the evidence he started it is clear" when you have absolutely no evidence to that effect is absurd.

Please don't confuse evidence with speculation or opinion.

"The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown" Only if you decide to ignore all the witness statements (evidence!)... there's clearly no reasoning with someone who selectively ignores the given facts of the case because to acknowledge them would be detrimental to their own ego!

The fact that Mr Behan behaved badly in not a point of dispute - he has admitted this himself. To try to use that to justify a beating is naive and displays a somewhat medieval outlook on life. You clearly have a very limited knowledge of (modern) ethics & law.

"According to Anat, Behan argued heatedly with the security guards, pushing one in the chest and kicking the chief of the station. In self-defence, a security guard hit the passenger with a scanner.

"The chief of the station then tried to provide first aid, but the passenger refused and tried to walk up the platform. Then, the scene turned chaotic again," Anat said."

The above is taken from the article posted on TV on 23rd March. Irregardless of when it was posted, the facts of the quote should not change. It clearly states "in self defence".

Edit: This is human nature that a single line of a statement is omited so that a person's already "made up mind" remains intact.

Anat was not present at the scene was he? So this is not a witness statement is it?

From the same article:

"BANGKOK: -- Bangkok Mass Transit System (BTS), the operator of the Skytrain, yesterday apologised to a foreign passenger who claimed he was attacked by a security guard for breaching a rule banning gas-filled balloons on the rail system.

The apology followed the filing of police complaints by both sides in the March 16 altercation at Prompong Station.

"We have already removed the guard who were involved from the BTS system," BTS executive Anat Arbhabhirama said yesterday.

He added that negligent officials - who he said were the source of the passenger's dissatisfaction - would also face a disciplinary probe and harsh disciplinary action."

Doesn't change the fact that this is not a witness statement...

"Edit: This is human nature that a single line of a statement is omited so that a person's already "made up mind" remains intact."

Which is exactly what you have done, taking a chosen line of Anat's statements as evidence, when he is a BTS executive, not present at the scene, and then presenting them as facts given by a witness. This is simply not true however much you would like to twist the information to suite your point of view...

"Amerika. Try it there sometime, especially if you're a foreigner. Quite likely to get a lot worse than that, tased or shot"

Why does that not come as a surprise to me?!

Ferangled, I was answering your query "Has there been a single witness statement contrary to this" and not trying to change anyone's mind. For the record, I think that both parties were at fault. This was a statement made from eye witness accounts.

But regardless to what I think, your comment "This is simply not true however much you would like to twist the information to suite your point of view..." <deleted> are you talking about?

And what has this got to do with America, about people getting tassed or shot?

Get a grip buddy, and leave it to the legal system to sort out!

[Ferangled]

"And what has this got to do with America, about people getting tassed or shot?" You tell me buddy, replying to others comments...

"Don't know about you, but I base all my opinions of foreigners on what Jeremy Clarkson says."

Inadvisable. I guess you haven't seen the episode? It's not what he says but the fact that they were stoned and nearly lynched for writing "I'm gay", "Nascar sucks" and "Hilary Clinton for president" on their cars... indicates to me a distinct lack of tolerance to differing view points.... sound familiar at all?!

I would have to agree with Clarkson on his closing sentiment though... there is distinct evidence that the US populace has been breeding with vegetables! Class!

Edited April 6, 2012 by Ferangled

[swillowbee]

Get a grip buddy, and leave it to the legal system to sort out!

... chrisnth, I imagine the remarkable amount of traffic on this and the two other related threads is caused by a deep distrust by farang who have been here long enough to witness the Thai legal system ... I've been involved in Thailand's civil and criminal courts, and what happens there is 'Thai justice', which more closely resembles the village elders settling disputes ad hoc, subject to extraneous influences.

... there is a reason so many Thais fear court ... there is a reason cases here take years and years to be heard ... litigants are worn down, pushed by the system to be settled outside of court ... village justice ... talk to anyone who deals with litigation here.

... so, I do fear that the Thai legal system will not "sort out" this case in a fashion adhering to Thailand's own written rules of evidence and rules of law ... without the light of day shining on these cases, they fall victim to the village justice negotiated outside of the courtroom.

... while that might be okay with Thais, for whom the administration of justice can be arbitrary and highly negotiable, my experience is that this far more favorable to those with an ability to influence opinions ... I want desperately for Thailand's rule of law to be judged favorably by international standards ... it is the only hope my adopted children (abandoned by their families, without influential names) have for a future whnere they control their own destinies, not influential people who negotiate village justice outside the justice system.

... this guy is quite vulnerable to such an outcome ... hopefully, Thai officials will recognize any legal action will be closely followed by a large number of people and reported by the media well beyond BKK.

[Ferangled]

"The evidence that he started it is clear. The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown."

I'll reiterate my point made to Nisa and duly ignored, as your are clearly mistaking evidence for your own assumptions. You deliberately and repeatedly choose to ignore the only published witness statements, including the cameraman, stating that "the Irish guy" had been attacked by a BTS guard, backed up by this video showing a man clearly suffering from quite a severe head wound.

Has there been a single witness statement contrary to this? I notice that both of you, true to form, selectively ignore this question! I haven't seen a single witness statement disputing that the guard assaulted the teacher... only speculative BS on here by people that weren't there.

But you see kicking bins and acting aggressively to a confrontation following an assault as the main issue here and tend to gloss over the initial assault altogether in your posts... we won't even mentioned the statements detailing a gang assault following the video, again confirmed by the cameraman.

You base your comments about the teacher on a single video taken out of context and selectively ignore the statement from the individual that took the video. Then to summarize that "the evidence he started it is clear" when you have absolutely no evidence to that effect is absurd.

Please don't confuse evidence with speculation or opinion.

"The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown" Only if you decide to ignore all the witness statements (evidence!)... there's clearly no reasoning with someone who selectively ignores the given facts of the case because to acknowledge them would be detrimental to their own ego!

The fact that Mr Behan behaved badly in not a point of dispute - he has admitted this himself. To try to use that to justify a beating is naive and displays a somewhat medieval outlook on life. You clearly have a very limited knowledge of (modern) ethics & law.

"According to Anat, Behan argued heatedly with the security guards, pushing one in the chest and kicking the chief of the station. In self-defence, a security guard hit the passenger with a scanner.

"The chief of the station then tried to provide first aid, but the passenger refused and tried to walk up the platform. Then, the scene turned chaotic again," Anat said."

The above is taken from the article posted on TV on 23rd March. Irregardless of when it was posted, the facts of the quote should not change. It clearly states "in self defence".

Edit: This is human nature that a single line of a statement is omited so that a person's already "made up mind" remains intact.

Anat was not present at the scene was he? So this is not a witness statement is it?

From the same article:

"BANGKOK: -- Bangkok Mass Transit System (BTS), the operator of the Skytrain, yesterday apologised to a foreign passenger who claimed he was attacked by a security guard for breaching a rule banning gas-filled balloons on the rail system.

The apology followed the filing of police complaints by both sides in the March 16 altercation at Prompong Station.

"We have already removed the guard who were involved from the BTS system," BTS executive Anat Arbhabhirama said yesterday.

He added that negligent officials - who he said were the source of the passenger's dissatisfaction - would also face a disciplinary probe and harsh disciplinary action."

Doesn't change the fact that this is not a witness statement...

"Edit: This is human nature that a single line of a statement is omited so that a person's already "made up mind" remains intact."

Which is exactly what you have done, taking a chosen line of Anat's statements as evidence, when he is a BTS executive, not present at the scene, and then presenting them as facts given by a witness. This is simply not true however much you would like to twist the information to suite your point of view...

"Amerika. Try it there sometime, especially if you're a foreigner. Quite likely to get a lot worse than that, tased or shot"

Why does that not come as a surprise to me?!

Ferangled, I was answering your query "Has there been a single witness statement contrary to this" and not trying to change anyone's mind. For the record, I think that both parties were at fault. This was a statement made from eye witness accounts.

But regardless to what I think, your comment "This is simply not true however much you would like to twist the information to suite your point of view..." <deleted> are you talking about?

And what has this got to do with America, about people getting tassed or shot?

Get a grip buddy, and leave it to the legal system to sort out!

This is not an eye witness statement, it's a press release statement from a BTS executive that was not present on the scene... that's what I was trying to point out. Clutching half of a statement and calling it an eye witness account is not factual.

And yes, I'm sure the BiB and Thai legal system are all over this... err... nice to see you have a strong grip on the realities of Thailand.

[Nisa]

"The evidence that he started it is clear. The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown."

I'll reiterate my point made to Nisa and duly ignored, as your are clearly mistaking evidence for your own assumptions. You deliberately and repeatedly choose to ignore the only published witness statements, including the cameraman, stating that "the Irish guy" had been attacked by a BTS guard, backed up by this video showing a man clearly suffering from quite a severe head wound.

Sorry but I could only read the first paragraph but where has anybody denied he was hit before the video? Not sure of your definition of severe head wound but the video shows a guy who has all his motor skills and appears to look like he has some sort of cut or abrasion around his eye.

Bottom line is the guy was acting very badly on this video and the guy admits he did wrong. The BTS also apologized over the incident and in It is likely that security also acted badly but the facts are not in regarding who got physical first ... not that it matters. What we do see on the video is a man entering an area he was told he could not where guards who posed him no threat were and who he tried to attack and nothing before this video can justify his doing this.

I can't help but wonder if you feel this guy (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/545902-man-arrested-after-taking-wife-hostage-bangkok/page__fromsearch__1) was justified in his actions since he was clubbed in the head before he took his wife hostage with a knife out in the street.

[Ferangled]

"The evidence that he started it is clear. The evidence about the guards full conduct remains unknown."

I'll reiterate my point made to Nisa and duly ignored, as your are clearly mistaking evidence for your own assumptions. You deliberately and repeatedly choose to ignore the only published witness statements, including the cameraman, stating that "the Irish guy" had been attacked by a BTS guard, backed up by this video showing a man clearly suffering from quite a severe head wound.

Sorry but I could only read the first paragraph but where has anybody denied he was hit before the video? Not sure of your definition of severe head wound but the video shows a guy who has all his motor skills and appears to look like he has some sort of cut or abrasion around his eye.

Bottom line is the guy was acting very badly on this video and the guy admits he did wrong. The BTS also apologized over the incident and in It is likely that security also acted badly but the facts are not in regarding who got physical first ... not that it matters. What we do see on the video is a man entering an area he was told he could not where guards who posed him no threat were and who he tried to attack and nothing before this video can justify his doing this.

I can't help but wonder if you feel this guy (http://www.thaivisa....__fromsearch__1) was justified in his actions since he was clubbed in the head before he took his wife hostage with a knife out in the street.

Nisa you are proving repeatedly that you are unable to grasp or even attempt to grasp any opinion other than your own. I'm not following your link, as like most of the tosh you post I'm sure it will be totally irrelevant to what has happened or indeed the post you are replying to, which by your admission you haven't even read... explains why you seem to consistently miss the point and reply with totally unrelated speculation.